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United States44194 Posts
Sermo, you're not getting what is being discussed here. Nobody is talking about feeling guilty for the transatlantic slave trade here.
What is being discussed is recognizing that the game of life doesn't treat everyone fairly today. That some people start with advantages and some people start with handicaps and that one of the advantages is being white in America. And then, once you recognize that, trying to be less judgmental about shit.
That's literally it.
Like the level of guilt required here is things like "if we tie educational opportunity to financial status when we're just 3 generations from black Americans having no real access to the means of obtaining financial security then that's a rigged game and I should feel pretty shitty about blaming folks for losing it". It's not "I feel personally bad about slavery". It's "wow, that shit's fucked up".
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United States44194 Posts
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo
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Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people.
Once we take the racial element out of it leaves no team for anyone to feel that they're not in. The greatest lie the devil ever told was telling all white people that they're middle class. Just do the same thing for privilege and we're golden. Inject race into it and you get separation between people even if you don't intend for it.
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On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 13:40 NewSunshine wrote:
White privilege(or any privilege) is tricky to approach, because it's something that gives preferential treatment to whites specifically by leaving them out of whatever systemic oppression is in place, and so it's something that exists specifically because of the ignorance on the part of the people that enjoy it. It follows that when you do bring it up, the natural response is one of skepticism or indignation.
The bad ones, of course, refuse to acknowledge the issue, and instead dig their heels in. I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either. People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept. But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding? On July 13 2017 13:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:On July 13 2017 11:36 Nyxisto wrote:On July 13 2017 11:29 Achamian wrote:On July 13 2017 11:26 KwarK wrote:
No, I totally get that racists get upset when you call them racists. I just don't know if you're trying to say that the racists aren't racists or if you're saying the Democrats should stop calling the racists racist. spoiler alert: there are just as many republicans who hate blacks as there are liberals that hate whites, lets choose teams "hating white people" because they're white isn't actually a thing. The only place where that actually happens is South Africa and that's because of the whole apartheid thing. Nobody has ever institutionalized 'anti-white racism' because of alleged inferiority, that's just one of the long list of imaginary victim complexes that the modern right likes to conjure up Trust me, it's very much a thing in a lot of the world. For example, I had police guarding my community for 6 months after specific threats growing up. Don't propagate ignorance as if you know what all the countries of the world are like. I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened.
Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use
“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr.
On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo
Yup.
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United States44194 Posts
On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people.
The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white.
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Canada11583 Posts
On July 13 2017 11:36 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 11:29 Achamian wrote:On July 13 2017 11:26 KwarK wrote:
No, I totally get that racists get upset when you call them racists. I just don't know if you're trying to say that the racists aren't racists or if you're saying the Democrats should stop calling the racists racist. spoiler alert: there are just as many republicans who hate blacks as there are liberals that hate whites, lets choose teams "hating white people" because they're white isn't actually a thing. The only place where that actually happens is South Africa and that's because of the whole apartheid thing. Nobody has ever institutionalized 'anti-white racism' because of alleged inferiority, that's just one of the long list of imaginary victim complexes that the modern right likes to conjure up
This is wrong. But the groups aren't so widely know so it is understandable that one wouldn't know about it as of yet. Look up black Hebrews or black Hebrew Israelites- ones like the Sicarii 1715 specifically. There are so many break away groups going back to their origins in the 1800s, but one of their few views held in common is that the real Hebrews were the Blacks brought over on the slave ships. In many of their escatologies, the White Devils (the Edomite) are wiped out and the remaining enslaved. The Moabite (Asians) don't survive so well either. But you don't have to hear too much of their White Devil, "Satan's physical arm on the earth", the "goddam devil" rhetoric to understand they hate for whites for being whites. As an aside, they have some funny beliefs like the Scottish King James VI/ I was actually a black man (as a counter to white washing history, they basically black wash history.) It's basically the black version of British Israelism and just as racist.
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On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 13:40 NewSunshine wrote:
White privilege(or any privilege) is tricky to approach, because it's something that gives preferential treatment to whites specifically by leaving them out of whatever systemic oppression is in place, and so it's something that exists specifically because of the ignorance on the part of the people that enjoy it. It follows that when you do bring it up, the natural response is one of skepticism or indignation.
The bad ones, of course, refuse to acknowledge the issue, and instead dig their heels in. I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either. People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept. But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding? On July 13 2017 13:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:On July 13 2017 11:36 Nyxisto wrote:On July 13 2017 11:29 Achamian wrote:On July 13 2017 11:26 KwarK wrote:
No, I totally get that racists get upset when you call them racists. I just don't know if you're trying to say that the racists aren't racists or if you're saying the Democrats should stop calling the racists racist. spoiler alert: there are just as many republicans who hate blacks as there are liberals that hate whites, lets choose teams "hating white people" because they're white isn't actually a thing. The only place where that actually happens is South Africa and that's because of the whole apartheid thing. Nobody has ever institutionalized 'anti-white racism' because of alleged inferiority, that's just one of the long list of imaginary victim complexes that the modern right likes to conjure up Trust me, it's very much a thing in a lot of the world. For example, I had police guarding my community for 6 months after specific threats growing up. Don't propagate ignorance as if you know what all the countries of the world are like. I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use Show nested quote +“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup.
You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English.
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On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white.
If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity.
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United States44194 Posts
At some point we'll get virtual reality simulators down and we can clear up this entire misunderstanding. Turn it all into an adventure game. White folks will call up their black friends and say "Hey, I'm struggling with the traffic stop quick time event. It happens all the time and I keep getting shot."
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On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 13:40 NewSunshine wrote:
White privilege(or any privilege) is tricky to approach, because it's something that gives preferential treatment to whites specifically by leaving them out of whatever systemic oppression is in place, and so it's something that exists specifically because of the ignorance on the part of the people that enjoy it. It follows that when you do bring it up, the natural response is one of skepticism or indignation.
The bad ones, of course, refuse to acknowledge the issue, and instead dig their heels in. I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either. People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept. But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding? On July 13 2017 13:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:On July 13 2017 11:36 Nyxisto wrote:On July 13 2017 11:29 Achamian wrote:On July 13 2017 11:26 KwarK wrote:
No, I totally get that racists get upset when you call them racists. I just don't know if you're trying to say that the racists aren't racists or if you're saying the Democrats should stop calling the racists racist. spoiler alert: there are just as many republicans who hate blacks as there are liberals that hate whites, lets choose teams "hating white people" because they're white isn't actually a thing. The only place where that actually happens is South Africa and that's because of the whole apartheid thing. Nobody has ever institutionalized 'anti-white racism' because of alleged inferiority, that's just one of the long list of imaginary victim complexes that the modern right likes to conjure up Trust me, it's very much a thing in a lot of the world. For example, I had police guarding my community for 6 months after specific threats growing up. Don't propagate ignorance as if you know what all the countries of the world are like. I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English.
Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human.
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On July 13 2017 15:33 KwarK wrote:
At some point we'll get virtual reality simulators down and we can clear up this entire misunderstanding. Turn it all into an adventure game. White folks will call up their black friends and say "Hey, I'm struggling with the traffic stop quick time event. It happens all the time and I keep getting shot."
OMG!!! My imagination ran with the idea of it being a gameplay issue and how suddenly some from this particular demographic would be far more pissed about that inconvenience in their gameplay than they are about it actually happening to real people all around the country every day. Maybe that would help people see my "Russia is a boujee man's problem" argument.
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United States44194 Posts
On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity.
Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard.
That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day.
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On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity.
White privilege exists because this privilege only really benefits white people. It isn't just black vs white people, it includes even model minorities like asians.
It really isn't that complex a lot of the time. For a lot of asians in entertainment and media, they deserve to get paid and treated the same as their white co-actors and are currently severely underrepresented considering the number of asians in the United States. Evidently, this is still a problem in 2017 as the entire asian cast of Hawaii Five-O quit because CBS thought they were worth 10-15 per cent less than their white co-stars.
Same with black people getting shot at traffic stops little reason besides "cop was scared". You don't have to feel guilty, you just need to understand their plight. Coach Popovich explains the black vs cop situation best: my black friends tell their children how to behave infront of cops, my white children never had to have this taught to them.
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United States44194 Posts
On July 13 2017 15:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:33 KwarK wrote:
At some point we'll get virtual reality simulators down and we can clear up this entire misunderstanding. Turn it all into an adventure game. White folks will call up their black friends and say "Hey, I'm struggling with the traffic stop quick time event. It happens all the time and I keep getting shot." OMG!!! My imagination ran with the idea of it being a gameplay issue and how suddenly some from this particular demographic would be far more pissed about that inconvenience in their gameplay than they are about it actually happening to real people all around the country every day. Maybe that would help people see my "Russia is a boujee man's problem" argument.
As long as I don't spawn third world I'm probably happy. I'd be submitting bug reports that I'm stuck on the sweatshop level and it keeps looping, only to be told that the game is working as intended.
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On July 13 2017 15:36 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 13:40 NewSunshine wrote:
White privilege(or any privilege) is tricky to approach, because it's something that gives preferential treatment to whites specifically by leaving them out of whatever systemic oppression is in place, and so it's something that exists specifically because of the ignorance on the part of the people that enjoy it. It follows that when you do bring it up, the natural response is one of skepticism or indignation.
The bad ones, of course, refuse to acknowledge the issue, and instead dig their heels in. I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either. People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept. But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding? On July 13 2017 13:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:On July 13 2017 11:36 Nyxisto wrote:On July 13 2017 11:29 Achamian wrote:
[quote]
spoiler alert: there are just as many republicans who hate blacks as there are liberals that hate whites, lets choose teams "hating white people" because they're white isn't actually a thing. The only place where that actually happens is South Africa and that's because of the whole apartheid thing. Nobody has ever institutionalized 'anti-white racism' because of alleged inferiority, that's just one of the long list of imaginary victim complexes that the modern right likes to conjure up Trust me, it's very much a thing in a lot of the world. For example, I had police guarding my community for 6 months after specific threats growing up. Don't propagate ignorance as if you know what all the countries of the world are like. I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English. Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human.
Yes I'm sure we as a species will get over this because its "expected" of us. Lets look at any map of the world at any point in time and see how thats going.
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On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day.
But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position.
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On July 13 2017 15:43 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 13:40 NewSunshine wrote:
White privilege(or any privilege) is tricky to approach, because it's something that gives preferential treatment to whites specifically by leaving them out of whatever systemic oppression is in place, and so it's something that exists specifically because of the ignorance on the part of the people that enjoy it. It follows that when you do bring it up, the natural response is one of skepticism or indignation.
The bad ones, of course, refuse to acknowledge the issue, and instead dig their heels in. I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either. People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept. But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding? On July 13 2017 13:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:On July 13 2017 11:36 Nyxisto wrote:
[quote]
"hating white people" because they're white isn't actually a thing. The only place where that actually happens is South Africa and that's because of the whole apartheid thing. Nobody has ever institutionalized 'anti-white racism' because of alleged inferiority, that's just one of the long list of imaginary victim complexes that the modern right likes to conjure up Trust me, it's very much a thing in a lot of the world. For example, I had police guarding my community for 6 months after specific threats growing up. Don't propagate ignorance as if you know what all the countries of the world are like. I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English. Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human. Yes I'm sure we as a species will get over this because its "expected" of us. Lets look at any map of the world at any point in time and see how thats going.
Yup, doomed to roam the earth raping and pillaging lawless and without moral or ethical bearings, because, you know, the evolution of the brain didn't happen and people are incapable of moderating their behavior. I know, I caved a man's chest in just the other day for not respecting my dominance (not looking down and away after prolonged eye-contact).
Like I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here? That we have predispositions that are insurmountable for most white people? You guys are just like reefer madness but instead it's tribalism? It just takes over your brain and prevents you from being human beings?
I find a cruel irony in going from raping and pillaging the countryside in order to civilize the "savages", but now it's actually white people's primal predispositions that inhibit them from recognizing this facet of reality?
On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position.
See my sig.
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On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position.
Again: white privilege isn't just about poor black people. Its about all minorities in all economic positions, from the very poor to the very rich.
Black quarterbacks are never described as smart, crafty, hardworking in the same way white quarterbacks are; Jeremy Lin is always described as deceptively < >; CBS thinks asian co-stars should be paid 10-15% less than their white co-stars.
None of these people in this situation are poor. White privilege is white privilege because race is what defines this privilege. Not wealth, not age. not gender, not anything else.
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On July 13 2017 15:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:43 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 13:40 NewSunshine wrote:
White privilege(or any privilege) is tricky to approach, because it's something that gives preferential treatment to whites specifically by leaving them out of whatever systemic oppression is in place, and so it's something that exists specifically because of the ignorance on the part of the people that enjoy it. It follows that when you do bring it up, the natural response is one of skepticism or indignation.
The bad ones, of course, refuse to acknowledge the issue, and instead dig their heels in. I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either. People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept. But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding? On July 13 2017 13:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:
[quote]
Trust me, it's very much a thing in a lot of the world. For example, I had police guarding my community for 6 months after specific threats growing up. Don't propagate ignorance as if you know what all the countries of the world are like. I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English. Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human. Yes I'm sure we as a species will get over this because its "expected" of us. Lets look at any map of the world at any point in time and see how thats going. Yup, doomed to roam the earth raping and pillaging lawless and without moral or ethical bearings, because, you know, the evolution of the brain didn't happen and people are incapable of moderating their behavior. I know, I caved a man's chest in just the other day for not respecting my dominance (not looking down and away after prolonged eye-contact). Like I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here? That we have predispositions that are insurmountable for most white people? You guys are just like reefer madness but instead it's tribalism? It just takes over your brain and prevents you from being human beings? I find a cruel irony in going from raping and pillaging the countryside in order to civilize the "savages", but now it's actually white people's primal predispositions that inhibit them from recognizing this facet of reality? Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position. See my sig.
You're being obstinate for the sake of onstinence. You're trying to argue against a basic psychological trait of humans as "well we're smart and stuff so that shouldn't be an issue'. The bears and the bulls isn't something that just went away because people can read a graph.
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On July 13 2017 16:01 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:43 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I mean I get some stickiness to one's original perceptions, I didn't accept that I was a lifelong receiver of male privilege the first time it was brought to my attention, but it didn't take me years either.
People want to excuse it as a rational reaction, and in some ways it is, but it's also blatantly racist and reflects poorly on the individual's capabilities to absorb new information. That shouldn't be controversial to anyone willing to engage in the concept.
But what I'm looking for is what is it about so many white people and white privilege (that's unique to them) that makes it so hard for them to come to this basic understanding?
[quote]
I'm doubting it was in Scotland, and if it was, I don't think you quite understand what we're talking about, if it wasn't, then it probably fit into the addendum that was presumed, then actually phrased. You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you? Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English. Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human. Yes I'm sure we as a species will get over this because its "expected" of us. Lets look at any map of the world at any point in time and see how thats going. Yup, doomed to roam the earth raping and pillaging lawless and without moral or ethical bearings, because, you know, the evolution of the brain didn't happen and people are incapable of moderating their behavior. I know, I caved a man's chest in just the other day for not respecting my dominance (not looking down and away after prolonged eye-contact). Like I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here? That we have predispositions that are insurmountable for most white people? You guys are just like reefer madness but instead it's tribalism? It just takes over your brain and prevents you from being human beings? I find a cruel irony in going from raping and pillaging the countryside in order to civilize the "savages", but now it's actually white people's primal predispositions that inhibit them from recognizing this facet of reality? On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position. See my sig. You're being obstinate for the sake of onstinence. You're trying to argue against a basic psychological trait of humans as "well we're smart and stuff so that shouldn't be an issue'. The bears and the bulls isn't something that just went away because people can read a graph.
No it doesn't just go away, like the urge to punch idiots doesn't just go away, but we as humans have decided that a society is built when we try to circumvent those urges with reason and sensibility.
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EPT
