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I feel that GH is being unfairly targeted here because of some misunderstanding. I can see that he has come to terms with his privilege and is trying to remedy that. He struggles with it, but he is making a conscious effort to make it better. In his eyes, he cannot understand how others cannot come to terms with it as he did. GH, imo, understands that these things exist and is doing the best he can.
I think the crux of the problem is that, like GH used to be, some white people don't want that guilt or sudden shock to their system. "I've been unfairly benefiting from society simply because I'm white? I have POC that I'm close with that are better than me and they are still struggling, simply because they're a POC? No way. I don't/can't believe it."
It's a weird mental gymnastics one must go through. I can say that every so often, I blame a white guy for my plights. I know it's not the true cause of my stagnation in life, but it helps relieve some pressure.
"I can't win because the game is rigged. The best I can do is toil my ass off and hope it pays off in the end."
People go through that daily. They effectively give up trying because they know, almost intrinsically, that they will never get that leg up because of their socioeconomic background. You know there are some really smart people out there that will ever benefit society because they don't care any longer. But if someone can make money or take power, using their abilities, they will. In a heartbeat.
On July 13 2017 16:01 rageprotosscheesy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position. Again: white privilege isn't just about poor black people. Its about all minorities in all economic positions, from the very poor to the very rich. Black quarterbacks are never described as smart, crafty, hardworking in the same way white quarterbacks are; Jeremy Lin is always described as deceptively < >; CBS thinks asian co-stars should be paid 10-15% less than their white co-stars. None of these people in this situation are poor. White privilege is white privilege because race is what defines this privilege. Not wealth, not age. not gender, not anything else.
This is a great summation.
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Canada11381 Posts
I don't know. In practice, the privilege concept tends to undermine the various justice causes because whatever group that might be lacking in a privilege in one area can be dismissed and is dismissed by someone lacking in even more privileges. So a black cause can get derailed because it's black men and they have male privilege, or gay police can get ejected from a Toronto pride parade because I guess black issues trump gay issues (Honestly not sure what BLM is doing up in Canada, considering we were the end of the line on the underground railway.) It's not for no reason that people like Professor Saad call it the oppression olympics (abelist, etc).
It's true that we live in privilege and this only gets more true once you scale it globally and historically, (does Western privilege make us collectively oppressors of the rest of the world?) but it's also true that life consists of suffering. But if we look around the world, we have yet to come up with a better system (there are only a handful of countries I would choose to move to, all consisting of fairly similar systems) so it's fair for one group to say, let's not get crazy about changing things too fast- we haven't yet found something better. Even though we have wide disparities, the working class' standard of living as a whole has improved vastly. Again, typing up my grandfather's memoirs has shifted my own perspective on my own whining on not being able to purchase a house as easily as my father's generation could- hauling water into the house by hand, heating and cooking the house with sawdust because all the timber was gone from logging and forest fires, and so children were granted an hour of free time before supper because the working poor needed all hands on deck to pull them out of poverty. With the introduction of electricity, so many basic things are cared for that was previously run on child labour. Man, we live in privileged times.
And yet there are obviously problems and so it's fair to say we need to look to improve what we have. That's very true. However, I baulk at any revolutionary rhetoric because as much as there are problems, revolutions are catastrophic for the underprivileged, and there's really little hope of getting anything better than what we have. But the privilege concept operates as the new bourgesois to be overthrown, but gradates endlessly, so I actually think it's not very useful at all as it more likely to create a paralysis through its endless divisibility than any true change.
But as life consists of suffering, there's something to be said to make sure whatever suffering there is, you don't, at the very least, contribute to it. And maybe if your lucky and sort yourself out, you might be able to ease a little of that suffering. It's very difficult to control what other people do in regards to suffering, but you can control how you behave and think towards it.
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On July 13 2017 16:05 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 16:01 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:43 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 14:42 Sermokala wrote:
[quote]
You're asking people to move from a position of "I'm a regular human being that didn't enslave other people or do anything wrong to black people" to " I'm responsible now for the enslavement of other people and things done wrong to black people" and you're wondering why its a hard sell for you?
Edit you more or less answered yourself so I don't think theres anything more to say I guess. I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours. Three things jump out at me at the moment: 1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day. 2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!. 3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly? You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English. Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human. Yes I'm sure we as a species will get over this because its "expected" of us. Lets look at any map of the world at any point in time and see how thats going. Yup, doomed to roam the earth raping and pillaging lawless and without moral or ethical bearings, because, you know, the evolution of the brain didn't happen and people are incapable of moderating their behavior. I know, I caved a man's chest in just the other day for not respecting my dominance (not looking down and away after prolonged eye-contact). Like I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here? That we have predispositions that are insurmountable for most white people? You guys are just like reefer madness but instead it's tribalism? It just takes over your brain and prevents you from being human beings? I find a cruel irony in going from raping and pillaging the countryside in order to civilize the "savages", but now it's actually white people's primal predispositions that inhibit them from recognizing this facet of reality? On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position. See my sig. You're being obstinate for the sake of onstinence. You're trying to argue against a basic psychological trait of humans as "well we're smart and stuff so that shouldn't be an issue'. The bears and the bulls isn't something that just went away because people can read a graph. No it doesn't just go away, like the urge to punch idiots doesn't just go away, but we as humans have decided that a society is built when we try to circumvent those urges with reason and sensibility.
You're the one that said it would go away because we have brains for it. Tribalism doesn't go away because we arn't barbarians. we created political parties we created different gaming teams. Its a thing GH why are you trying to say its not a thing. I get it that you don't care about being politically relevant but when you're arguing with people that do you need to take that into account and not be an idiot on a simple explanation based on the most basic psychological principle there is. I answered your question I'm sorry you don't like the answer good night.
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I just left San Diego a few weeks ago. I was surrounded by a good mix of people from various parts of the world.
I had two classmates that were deeply pro-black and anti-white everything. If they were treated differently, they blamed a white person. If they didn't get a good review or whatever, they blamed a white person. They went so far as to create a minority student body that was all about promoting the minority students and shunning any white person that wanted to help. It was nauseating to say the least.
I looked at it like this: I will be judged already because I'm black and be at a disadvantage. But I will also be judged fairly by the merits of my work in the studio. If my project was better, I'm going to fight for it. If someone is getting a better review than someone, even though they had the same content, I spoke up. I was the angry black guy, even though I only defended those who couldn't defend themselves. But I would be damned if I let someone tell me my work was inferior to a white or asian student simply because I was black (never mentioned aloud but you knew). My work spoke for itself and if I came up short, it was because I did that on my own.
Taking responsibility for your lack of ability as a POC is the first step to making progress. If you're not attempting to better yourself, and make yourself better than everyone else, and instead are relying on the race card, you're no better than the people using race as a reason to keep you down. Anecdotally, being black as it's advantages but those are still vastly outweighed by the disadvantages.
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On July 13 2017 16:11 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 16:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 16:01 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:43 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:36 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:25 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:20 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 13 2017 15:06 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 14:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I have to say I think my answer is a LOT better than yours.
Three things jump out at me at the moment:
1. You know the bad things white people have done to black people didn't stop in 1865, 1965, or 2015 right? Like I get everything isn't as bad as the slavery that built this country, but there are plenty of living people (lots in congress specifically) that either directly benefited from, or were there with the racists participating themselves the types of abuses that I'm talking about. As well as plenty being perpetrated every day.
2. No one is saying you are responsible for the enslavement of other people, you and the many other people who say things like that should really learn how that looks like a guilty child denying they broke something by saying their parent blames them for everything that has ever broken in their lives, before they were even born!.
3. It sounds like you don't understand or recognize any type of privilege, am I interpreting that correctly?
You can't tell people to accept responsibility and then not associate themselves with this new identify that you're placing on them. As a black person you have black privilege because you don't have to experience white privilege /s. If I'm not responsible for the enslavement of other people then why should I care about what happened because of it? I didn't cause the issue and its not my problem if I'm not responsible for what happened. Rather than get bogged down in the other stuff, I'd like to focus on this part. If "what happened because of it" is the systemic violation of their constitutional rights, it is your problem. There's a million ways to say it, but I'll use “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” - MLK Jr. On July 13 2017 15:17 KwarK wrote:
Nobody needs you to feel bad or feel guilty or anything else like that. That's not what privilege is at all. All you have to do is acknowledge that not everyone is playing the game on the same difficulty and then recognize when you're
a) not acknowledging that your easier levels often come directly due to someone else's hard levels
b) not doing anything to try and rectify the fact that the game is rigged
c) blaming people for losing a rigged game
d) using their loss and your win to justify perpetuating the status quo Yup. You're ignoring the basic human social instinct of tribalism. The second you invite any gap for differentiating between groups you'll be the first person that will be in a different group. What MLK said was true but it doesn't identify with anyone when its between their group and another group. Early american history shows that it didn't even start with black people as they were just as happy to hate Germans when they were English. Granting you tribalism, it, like many so called "primal urges", are expected to be dealt with by our frontal lobes. It's part of what distinguishes us as human. Yes I'm sure we as a species will get over this because its "expected" of us. Lets look at any map of the world at any point in time and see how thats going. Yup, doomed to roam the earth raping and pillaging lawless and without moral or ethical bearings, because, you know, the evolution of the brain didn't happen and people are incapable of moderating their behavior. I know, I caved a man's chest in just the other day for not respecting my dominance (not looking down and away after prolonged eye-contact). Like I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here? That we have predispositions that are insurmountable for most white people? You guys are just like reefer madness but instead it's tribalism? It just takes over your brain and prevents you from being human beings? I find a cruel irony in going from raping and pillaging the countryside in order to civilize the "savages", but now it's actually white people's primal predispositions that inhibit them from recognizing this facet of reality? On July 13 2017 15:47 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:41 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:31 Sermokala wrote:On July 13 2017 15:22 KwarK wrote:On July 13 2017 15:18 Sermokala wrote:
Whats being discussed is GH doesn't understand why white privilege is hard for people to accept. I'm explaining why its being terribly sold by associating peoples advantage in life to their race.
If whoever created the term just left the word white out of it it would be a lot easier and wouldn't be just targeting white people. The concept of privilege exists without the word white. There's actually a name for the non racially specific version of white privilege. It's called privilege. But if you're talking about racial privilege then the word white might come up. It kinda has to. You can't really talk about racial privilege without mentioning the word white. If anything this conservation should show why talking about racial privilege is a sinkhole that doesn't yield anything good. stripping race from the privilege conversation like you says boils the conversation down to everyone being on the same side to make things better for everyone. advocating for the same things because black people are poor and white people owe them is a lot more complex instantly then just saying to get equality of economic opportunity. Insisting that nobody talk about race is like saying "I don't see difficulty ratings" in the game. Very comforting for the people who are worried that if difficulty ratings existed then they'd be on easy. Not so helpful for the people who know they definitely exist and are playing on hard. That's part of the problem with the "I don't see race" crowd. It's a blanket refusal to acknowledge that race issues persist to this day. But you can't complain about "why does nothing get better" while at the same time ignoring why nothing is getting better. You can talk about race but you can't expect that conversation to ever change at a pace that (struggling with what adjective is appropriate here) for people like GH. Changing the general socio-economic situation of black people will be greater if you don't talk about race, thus my opinion is that to insist that we don't talk about race. You've got to comfort the uncomfortable to get them to come around to your position. See my sig. You're being obstinate for the sake of onstinence. You're trying to argue against a basic psychological trait of humans as "well we're smart and stuff so that shouldn't be an issue'. The bears and the bulls isn't something that just went away because people can read a graph. No it doesn't just go away, like the urge to punch idiots doesn't just go away, but we as humans have decided that a society is built when we try to circumvent those urges with reason and sensibility. You're the one that said it would go away because we have brains for it. Tribalism doesn't go away because we arn't barbarians. we created political parties we created different gaming teams. Its a thing GH why are you trying to say its not a thing. I get it that you don't care about being politically relevant but when you're arguing with people that do you need to take that into account and not be an idiot on a simple explanation based on the most basic psychological principle there is. I answered your question I'm sorry you don't like the answer good night.
That response indicates you didn't comprehend what I said. You seem to think I'm saying that it's not a thing, that's obviously not what I'm saying. I never said you didn't answer it, I said your answer sucked. We've since found better ones though, so thanks for playing 
On July 13 2017 16:19 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I just left San Diego a few weeks ago. I was surrounded by a good mix of people from various parts of the world.
I had two classmates that were deeply pro-black and anti-white everything. If they were treated differently, they blamed a white person. If they didn't get a good review or whatever, they blamed a white person. They went so far as to create a minority student body that was all about promoting the minority students and shunning any white person that wanted to help. It was nauseating to say the least.
I looked at it like this: I will be judged already because I'm black and be at a disadvantage. But I will also be judged fairly by the merits of my work in the studio. If my project was better, I'm going to fight for it. If someone is getting a better review than someone, even though they had the same content, I spoke up. I was the angry black guy, even though I only defended those who couldn't defend themselves. But I would be damned if I let someone tell me my work was inferior to a white or asian student simply because I was black (never mentioned aloud but you knew). My work spoke for itself and if I came up short, it was because I did that on my own.
Taking responsibility for your lack of ability as a POC is the first step to making progress. If you're not attempting to better yourself, and make yourself better than everyone else, and instead are relying on the race card, you're no better than the people using race as a reason to keep you down. Anecdotally, being black as it's advantages but those are still vastly outweighed by the disadvantages.
I accepted long ago I would have to be better than a white counterpart to get the same credit, or I would be the "angry black guy".
Watching how Obama was treated by the same people who argue Trump is capable confirmed to me that you can be exponentially more capable and still not be judged worthy by the same people who will take a cartoon character if he's white (this isn't directed at posters here specifically).
What I won't accept is not doing everything I can to prevent innocent children from having to deal with what I do, like the many generations of black folks that came before me did so that I could be here now.
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GH and some others here are on the slippery slope of postmodernism. It is important to understand that the whole undertaking of pm is through the lens of power. That can be ok if acknowledging that it is one approach of many. But no, pm is only about that, which is why it ends in struggles and following it to a T will end in struggle and more struggle.
Males had more power throughout history and females indeed had to follow and bear it. That seems to be a privilege of the males. But it does not follow, that men in sum are more privileged. That is why being a man is not privileged.
The caucasian in Siberia are in what way a privileged race? Indeed, not so much! That is one of many reasons, why you can say, the whites had and have their time on the sun and conquered on the behalf of the othere races a lot of land and pillaged it and used it to an advantage that holds to this day, and this advantage goes to their offspring and so they may have privileges, but it does not follow to say that they are all privileged.
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Hey if ya'll not happy being born where or what you are, go blame God or something. In the meantime, I will continue sucking on this silver spoon, mmhmm tasty...
Weren't you glad you were born a human and not some insect that gets stomped on?
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This discussion is very surreal for someone living in country like Poland.
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On July 13 2017 16:36 riotjune wrote:
Hey if ya'll not happy being born where or what you are, go blame God or something. In the meantime, I will continue sucking on this silver spoon, mmhmm tasty...
Weren't you glad you were born a human and not some insect that gets stomped on?
literally so lucky the current understanding of spacetime suggests we don't have to worry about this, but gahdamed if we weren't relatively alone in the universe there'd be no justifying some parts of humanity.
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On July 13 2017 16:39 Silvanel wrote:
This discussion is very surreal for someone living in country like Poland.
Everything related to the US politics right now is immensely surreal
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Following a rule that would say, you always have to check your privileges when dealing with others, is not only not feasible because of the many categories of advantages that can exist, like having rich parents or having only a raising mother or having a sick mother or having bad genes or bad friends in the neighborhood or ... , etc., but it would be hindering and, even more so, damaging for future relations, because of te simple fact, that one can not know if an act will lead to any or further privileges.
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On July 13 2017 16:43 PoulsenB wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 16:39 Silvanel wrote:
This discussion is very surreal for someone living in country like Poland. Everything related to the US politics right now is immensely surreal
Considering the cultural hegemony of usa toward all Europe (even Russia), I don't think this is so much different or at least it will be soon this reality show in which governing is a second priority just like in France which is more a colony of Usa than a real country with his own and independant culture.
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On July 13 2017 16:19 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
I just left San Diego a few weeks ago. I was surrounded by a good mix of people from various parts of the world.
I had two classmates that were deeply pro-black and anti-white everything. If they were treated differently, they blamed a white person. If they didn't get a good review or whatever, they blamed a white person. They went so far as to create a minority student body that was all about promoting the minority students and shunning any white person that wanted to help. It was nauseating to say the least.
I looked at it like this: I will be judged already because I'm black and be at a disadvantage. But I will also be judged fairly by the merits of my work in the studio. If my project was better, I'm going to fight for it. If someone is getting a better review than someone, even though they had the same content, I spoke up. I was the angry black guy, even though I only defended those who couldn't defend themselves. But I would be damned if I let someone tell me my work was inferior to a white or asian student simply because I was black (never mentioned aloud but you knew). My work spoke for itself and if I came up short, it was because I did that on my own.
Taking responsibility for your lack of ability as a POC is the first step to making progress. If you're not attempting to better yourself, and make yourself better than everyone else, and instead are relying on the race card, you're no better than the people using race as a reason to keep you down. Anecdotally, being black as it's advantages but those are still vastly outweighed by the disadvantages.
Yes, using gender-, nationality- or race discrimination as an excuse for your failures is pretty common, but will not get you far. However, what you are talking about is blaming upwards, and should not be confused with the structural unfairnesses that go on downwards. Some of the biggest ones, like denying visas to qualified workers with the wrong passport, are not even controversial.
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On July 13 2017 03:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 03:34 On_Slaught wrote:On July 13 2017 03:24 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 03:14 NewSunshine wrote:On July 13 2017 02:54 xDaunt wrote:On July 13 2017 02:46 Wulfey_LA wrote:
How can you keep swallowing the lies DJT feeds you? I know you want to spin for him, but come on. DJT out and out lied about the contents of that meeting on Saturday. Then on Tuesday you are ready to believe him when he says nothing came of it? (DJT is speaking through DonJR and Hannity) How many more times are you going to get left holding the bags after the lies are dispelled? At what point do you get a sense of skepticism about the latest lies about what went down in that meeting? I'm not swallowing anything from Trump. In fact, I'm one of the few people not swallowing anything from anyone. Well just because you refuse to accept information doesn't mean it isn't correct. What information am I not accepting? In my world, information means facts and does not include speculation. Here's the template for most every conversation that I've had with TL's leftist/liberal posters on this Trump stuff: TL Leftist/Liberal: Trump did X, which is illegal! xDaunt: What do you base that on? TL Lefist/Liberal: Fuck you! You're a shill for Trump! Frankly, y'all should be embarrassed about this. Y'all are making it way too easy on me and others to fuck with you. You keep talking as if this were a trial. Trump doesn't have to be proven guilty of a crime to completely undermine his ability to act as President, or get impeached for that matter. He is already dangerously close to being a lame duck President (If healthcare and taxes fail he 100% will be). If you're stuck on "conviction worthy evidence" then just ignore everyone and wait for Mueller's report. Certainly if there is anything he will find it and he will be using a higher standard of proof than anyone commenting on the internet. Ah, so now we come to the ugly truth. Y'all, being hyperpartisan, are more than happy to tarnish Trump with pure innuendo for mere political purposes. Thank you for your service, On_Slaught.
So.. OJ Simpson did nothing wrong then? He was after all only found liable for, and not guilty of, the murder of his wife. And clearly, according to this reasoning if there is insufficient evidence of criminal wrongdoing then there is no wrongdoing at all! Any talk otherwise is pure innuendo. Leave Trump alone!
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The main problem I have with this whole neomarxist approach to politics is the language that is used. Heteronormative culture, white privilege, all types of racism are equal, cis white all this stuff. The extreme left has created its own language around identity, which divides everyone into groups whether they want it or not, and then uses that to say that some groups deserve completely different treatment to others. This is imposed on everyone by a relatively small but irritatingly vocal section of society.
Most liberals agree that gay people should have equal rights in society, but when I see people from the left arguing about white gays and their inherently privileged attitude compared to asian gays (something I genuinely saw on Facebook two days ago) it just makes me mad. Why this obsession with finding who the most oppressed group is and then blaming it on EVERYONE else? We don't need to keep dividing everybody until we're in a situation where 95% of people are the enemy.
Those who have done the most for equal rights are those who see all people as born equal, not those who think white men are born with thousands of years of original sin on their shoulders.
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On July 13 2017 18:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
The main problem I have with this whole neomarxist approach to politics is the language that is used. Heteronormative culture, white privilege, all types of racism are equal, cis white all this stuff. The extreme left has created its own language around identity, which divides everyone into groups whether they want it or not, and then uses that to say that some groups deserve completely different treatment to others. This is imposed on everyone by a relatively small but irritatingly vocal section of society.
Most liberals agree that gay people should have equal rights in society, but when I see people from the left arguing about white gays and their inherently privileged attitude compared to asian gays (something I genuinely saw on Facebook two days ago) it just makes me mad. Why this obsession with finding who the most oppressed group is and then blaming it on EVERYONE else? We don't need to keep dividing everybody until we're in a situation where 95% of people are the enemy.
Those who have done the most for equal rights are those who see all people as born equal, not those who think white men are born with thousands of years of original sin on their shoulders.
Using "extreme left" and "neo marxist" like that shows you have no idea about what you are talking about, and is even worse about framing your opponent. Come back when you read about REAL extreme leftists, who call from working class dictatorship and armed revoulutions. They do exisit, and have been important!
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On July 13 2017 19:36 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2017 18:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
The main problem I have with this whole neomarxist approach to politics is the language that is used. Heteronormative culture, white privilege, all types of racism are equal, cis white all this stuff. The extreme left has created its own language around identity, which divides everyone into groups whether they want it or not, and then uses that to say that some groups deserve completely different treatment to others. This is imposed on everyone by a relatively small but irritatingly vocal section of society.
Most liberals agree that gay people should have equal rights in society, but when I see people from the left arguing about white gays and their inherently privileged attitude compared to asian gays (something I genuinely saw on Facebook two days ago) it just makes me mad. Why this obsession with finding who the most oppressed group is and then blaming it on EVERYONE else? We don't need to keep dividing everybody until we're in a situation where 95% of people are the enemy.
Those who have done the most for equal rights are those who see all people as born equal, not those who think white men are born with thousands of years of original sin on their shoulders. Using "extreme left" and "neo marxist" like that shows you have no idea about what you are talking about, and is even worse about framing your opponent. Come back when you read about REAL extreme leftists, who call from working class dictatorship and armes revoulutions. Those are not the ones you are talking about.
He talked about neomarxists, not extreme left. Either way, it's evident there's a relationship between what he's talking about and neo-marxism in the way they're both based on sociological conflict theories.
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The concept of privilege isn't inherently Marxist anymore than it is inherently Weberian or Durkheim-esque. "Neo-Marxist" is the sort of term that applies too fluidly to be of much use anyhow.
In any case, folks in this thread ought be reminded of the fact that one can be opposed to political emphasis on identity politics while also being cognizant of the extent to which majorities enjoy certain kinds of privileged engagements with society.
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Thanks a lot for keeping up the interesting discussion about privileges, just my 2 cents:
I think a lot of the disagreements in this thread boils down to that people do not read what the other person actually writes, and instead apply their own preconceptions about it. Kind of ironic considering the subject.
Anyhow, for me the simile that made most sense to understand what this is about is to think about the feeling of being humiliated. Think about the last time you were humiliated. It does not happen that many times in my adult life, but I remember the absolute rage I feel when some guard extorts power and asks me to leave a place on false accusations or when some teacher mistreated me. Now imagine you are mistreated this way (police checks or people thinking you are stealing or w.e.) for no other reason than your skin-tone. I know I would be furious beyond words and I would surly be furious if someone tried to down-play this experience.
Also, don't we all know situations in our everyday life where POC would be treated differently? I work extra in a store selling paint, I know for sure that someone with the roots in Africa or the Middle East would have a lot of a harder time getting a job there.
The thing that makes it hard for me is that in comparison to gender equality, where I see very clearly what I have to gain from a more equal society and which I encounter examples of every day, I have a much harder time wrapping my head around how I should handle the whole white privilege-thing. This also has to do with that this is quite a new thing here in Sweden. I see it as a problem, but I do not exactly know how to handle it.
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EPT
