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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 03 2017 21:34 GMT
#155001
On June 04 2017 06:30 pmh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2017 09:47 LegalLord wrote:
I predict that in a few years, instead of gasoline, our cars will run on the power of hope. Sure is a lot of that stuff around, we could probably use it as a power source.



You are such a troll lol,sometimes I wonder why people react seriously to you. Maybe you know them irl,i don't know.
Anyway,while I do agree with quiet a few of your opinions and projections I think you are wrong when it comes to electric cars. Electricity is the future and it will in the end replace all fossil. But this might still take a very long time,a lot of money is invested in the fossil industry and the lobby and money also effects policys and other investments. Musk is a true pioneer for trying to go against the mainstream. For electric cars to take over and become 50%+ of all vehicles,i doubt we will see that in this century but it will happen eventually. Untill then the tesla cars are a good niche at the worst,and a lot more at the best. Lots of people want to "go green" and tesla is one of the few brands to do so. It has become a sort of status symbol,a way to show that you care about the environment and that you have an enlightened spirit. The valuation of tesla is real,the stocks are bought and sold for that valuation every day. You wont get such a high price just from people who think tesla is cool,this is not the dot com bubble. There must be some real perspective for growth and sustainability to sustain such a high price. That you or I don't see it doesn't mean that it is not there.

why do you conclude it being impossible to be a bubble? such things are found in many fields outside the dotcom area.
Of course it probably has more to do with potential, much as in the dotcom fields; it's very hard to tell who's going ot win decades down the line, but if you pick the right ones they can absolutely explode in value.

I think we might well see electrics take over by the end of the century; a lot really depends on how battery/energy storage tech goes. There's nothing that promising in the next 20-30 years or so; but in 60 years? quite possibly. It's really just the battery issue keeping electric cars down; too bad battery tech hasn't gone as well as some other tech paths.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
June 03 2017 21:35 GMT
#155002
Anyway,kudos to trump for pulling out of the paris agreement,it is something his supporters will appreciate. In the end the whole paris deal is symbolical,it holds not a single obligation or whatever. It basicly changes nothing,its a symbolical change though an important one I have to admit. Personally I think its to late to make a change already,seeing the growth in china and india. Like rusia and china and india they did sign the deal,but exactly what are they going to do to reduce their emissions? Noone knows I think.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 03 2017 21:38 GMT
#155003
On June 04 2017 06:34 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2017 06:30 pmh wrote:
On June 03 2017 09:47 LegalLord wrote:
I predict that in a few years, instead of gasoline, our cars will run on the power of hope. Sure is a lot of that stuff around, we could probably use it as a power source.



You are such a troll lol,sometimes I wonder why people react seriously to you. Maybe you know them irl,i don't know.
Anyway,while I do agree with quiet a few of your opinions and projections I think you are wrong when it comes to electric cars. Electricity is the future and it will in the end replace all fossil. But this might still take a very long time,a lot of money is invested in the fossil industry and the lobby and money also effects policys and other investments. Musk is a true pioneer for trying to go against the mainstream. For electric cars to take over and become 50%+ of all vehicles,i doubt we will see that in this century but it will happen eventually. Untill then the tesla cars are a good niche at the worst,and a lot more at the best. Lots of people want to "go green" and tesla is one of the few brands to do so. It has become a sort of status symbol,a way to show that you care about the environment and that you have an enlightened spirit. The valuation of tesla is real,the stocks are bought and sold for that valuation every day. You wont get such a high price just from people who think tesla is cool,this is not the dot com bubble. There must be some real perspective for growth and sustainability to sustain such a high price. That you or I don't see it doesn't mean that it is not there.

why do you conclude it being impossible to be a bubble? such things are found in many fields outside the dotcom area.
Of course it probably has more to do with potential, much as in the dotcom fields; it's very hard to tell who's going ot win decades down the line, but if you pick the right ones they can absolutely explode in value.

I think we might well see electrics take over by the end of the century; a lot really depends on how battery/energy storage tech goes. There's nothing that promising in the next 20-30 years or so; but in 60 years? quite possibly. It's really just the battery issue keeping electric cars down; too bad battery tech hasn't gone as well as some other tech paths.


Compare Batteries from 10 years and to ones today and I think you will see some improvement.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 21:40:32
June 03 2017 21:40 GMT
#155004
On June 04 2017 06:34 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2017 06:30 pmh wrote:
On June 03 2017 09:47 LegalLord wrote:
I predict that in a few years, instead of gasoline, our cars will run on the power of hope. Sure is a lot of that stuff around, we could probably use it as a power source.



You are such a troll lol,sometimes I wonder why people react seriously to you. Maybe you know them irl,i don't know.
Anyway,while I do agree with quiet a few of your opinions and projections I think you are wrong when it comes to electric cars. Electricity is the future and it will in the end replace all fossil. But this might still take a very long time,a lot of money is invested in the fossil industry and the lobby and money also effects policys and other investments. Musk is a true pioneer for trying to go against the mainstream. For electric cars to take over and become 50%+ of all vehicles,i doubt we will see that in this century but it will happen eventually. Untill then the tesla cars are a good niche at the worst,and a lot more at the best. Lots of people want to "go green" and tesla is one of the few brands to do so. It has become a sort of status symbol,a way to show that you care about the environment and that you have an enlightened spirit. The valuation of tesla is real,the stocks are bought and sold for that valuation every day. You wont get such a high price just from people who think tesla is cool,this is not the dot com bubble. There must be some real perspective for growth and sustainability to sustain such a high price. That you or I don't see it doesn't mean that it is not there.

why do you conclude it being impossible to be a bubble? such things are found in many fields outside the dotcom area.
Of course it probably has more to do with potential, much as in the dotcom fields; it's very hard to tell who's going ot win decades down the line, but if you pick the right ones they can absolutely explode in value.

I think we might well see electrics take over by the end of the century; a lot really depends on how battery/energy storage tech goes. There's nothing that promising in the next 20-30 years or so; but in 60 years? quite possibly. It's really just the battery issue keeping electric cars down; too bad battery tech hasn't gone as well as some other tech paths.



It just seems unlikely to me that its a bubble,i do think it is overvalued and I would not invest in it personally but this looks different from the dot.com bubble. Some companys had very high valuations during that time but the smaller the company the easier it is to create a bubble with just people who jump on the hype. I don't know how much tesla is worth but I believe it is above 50b, I don't think a 50b valuation can be created just by people who believe and have a dream but maybe it could. It would be interesting to see who has invested in tesla,but I think there will be quiet a few hedge funds amongst the people who have a stake.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 21:46:39
June 03 2017 21:42 GMT
#155005
About the batterys specifically I am pretty pessimistic in general,there is progress but the progress is not that amazing imo and I think it will sooner or later hit a hard ceiling. Personally I don't see electric cars take over (as in being 50% of all vehicles) with baterys,something better is needed like a hydrogen fuel cell. Still they can learn a lot from working on the batterys and they will have an advantage over everyone else.
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 21:48:39
June 03 2017 21:44 GMT
#155006
On June 04 2017 06:35 pmh wrote:
Anyway,kudos to trump for pulling out of the paris agreement,it is something his supporters will appreciate. In the end the whole paris deal is symbolical,it holds not a single obligation or whatever. It basicly changes nothing,its a symbolical change though an important one I have to admit. Personally I think its to late to make a change already,seeing the growth in china and india. Like rusia and china and india they did sign the deal,but exactly what are they going to do to reduce their emissions? Noone knows I think.

https://www.c2es.org/international/key-country-policies/india

https://www.c2es.org/international/key-country-policies/china

It's easy to blame developing nations for their pollution as development just increases energy demand but they are setting ambitious targets for themselves.
Neosteel Enthusiast
Diavlo
Profile Joined July 2011
Belgium2915 Posts
June 03 2017 21:47 GMT
#155007
On June 04 2017 06:35 pmh wrote:
Anyway,kudos to trump for pulling out of the paris agreement,it is something his supporters will appreciate. In the end the whole paris deal is symbolical,it holds not a single obligation or whatever. It basicly changes nothing,its a symbolical change though an important one I have to admit. Personally I think its to late to make a change already,seeing the growth in china and india. Like rusia and china and india they did sign the deal,but exactly what are they going to do to reduce their emissions? Noone knows I think.

You know you can google that shit right?

A draft 10-year energy blueprint published this week predicts that 57% of India’s total electricity capacity will come from non-fossil fuel sources by 2027. The Paris climate accord target was 40% by 2030.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/21/india-renewable-energy-paris-climate-summit-target

China intends to spend more than $360 billion through 2020 on renewable power sources like solar and wind, the government’s energy agency said on Thursday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/05/world/asia/china-renewable-energy-investment.html

China is the world leader in domestic investment in renewable energy and associated
low-emissions-energy sectors. China invested US$103bn in this sector in 2015, up 17% yoy,
according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF)—two and half times the amount
undertaken by the U.S.

http://ieefa.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Chinas-Global-Renewable-Energy-Expansion_January-2017.pdf




"I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm gonna get real weird with it."
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
June 03 2017 21:48 GMT
#155008
no details but India saying they'll go above and beyond paris accords http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40144613
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 21:54:43
June 03 2017 21:50 GMT
#155009
Thx for those links! They do clarify quiet a bit,but india is still going to develop mostly based on coal and their emissions are projected to rise by a large amount.

India produces about 2 tons of CO2e per capita, versus 20 tons and 8 tons, respectively, in the United States and China.

This will change for example,they will go up to 8 tons within 20 years I think if they continue to develop mostly based on coal. Still better then the usa but a big increase regardless.

India appears on track to achieve its voluntary pledge, though emissions are not projected to peak until around 2050 or later.

Global warming is lots of people doing little things to reduce emissions in 1 place,only to heavily stimulate and grow other sectors that emit even more. There are quiet a few examples of this,for example the airline industry whose emissions are projected to grow to 25% of all emissions.
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
1987 Posts
June 03 2017 21:53 GMT
#155010
On June 04 2017 06:42 pmh wrote:
About the batterys specifically I am pretty pessimistic in general,there is progress but the progress is not that amazing imo,and I think it will sooner or later hit a hard ceiling. Personally I don't see electric cars take over (as in being 50% of all vehicles) with baterys,something better is needed like a hydrogen fuel cell. Still they can learn a lot from working on the batterys and they will have an advantage over everyone else.


You need cheap energy from somewhere no matter how you run cars. If you build more coal-, or even diesel-powerplants to charge all those batteries, the gain big-picture environmental gain is minimal, but we would get cleaner air in the cities.

There is so much hypocricy in this, I am almost puking some times. The only real way to get green technology going is higher fuel prices, but after serious efforts from several nations, the prices fell like a rock since the crisis. Airports are subsidized, highways are built... As soon as real sacrifices needs to be made, we could not care less about what "might" be bad for us in 50 years. Hell, a lot of us smoke...

Buff the siegetank
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 21:57:29
June 03 2017 21:57 GMT
#155011
Hence Solar farms, wind farms, charging stations powered by solar, battery exchange stations powered by solar and so on.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22473 Posts
June 03 2017 22:13 GMT
#155012
On June 04 2017 06:53 Slydie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2017 06:42 pmh wrote:
About the batterys specifically I am pretty pessimistic in general,there is progress but the progress is not that amazing imo,and I think it will sooner or later hit a hard ceiling. Personally I don't see electric cars take over (as in being 50% of all vehicles) with baterys,something better is needed like a hydrogen fuel cell. Still they can learn a lot from working on the batterys and they will have an advantage over everyone else.


You need cheap energy from somewhere no matter how you run cars. If you build more coal-, or even diesel-powerplants to charge all those batteries, the gain big-picture environmental gain is minimal, but we would get cleaner air in the cities.

There is so much hypocricy in this, I am almost puking some times. The only real way to get green technology going is higher fuel prices, but after serious efforts from several nations, the prices fell like a rock since the crisis. Airports are subsidized, highways are built... As soon as real sacrifices needs to be made, we could not care less about what "might" be bad for us in 50 years. Hell, a lot of us smoke...


Raising fuel prices doesn't work in the US because there is no public transport to speak off outside the inner cities. You just end up pricing poor people out of being able to afford a car, and with it their ability to get a job.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 03 2017 22:15 GMT
#155013
This piece of shit. If you're wondering why this sounds familiar it is what Russia did in the 90's, and look where they are now.

President Trump will seek to put a spotlight on his vows to privatize the nation’s air traffic control system and spur $1 trillion in new investment in roads, waterways and other infrastructure with a week-long series of events starting Monday in the Rose Garden.

The events — billed as “infrastructure week” — are part of a stepped-up effort since the president’s return a week ago from his first foreign trip to show that the White House remains focused on its agenda, despite cascading headlines about his administration’s ties to Russia.

Trump’s plans next week also include a trip to the Ohio River, where it separates Ohio and Kentucky, to talk about the importance of waterways and to lay out his vision of infrastructure investments more broadly, aides say. And before the weekend, he will also welcome a bipartisan group of mayors and governors to Washington to discuss the topic and venture to the Transportation Department to talk about roads and railways.

“In many of these areas, we’re falling behind, and the falling behind is affecting economic growth in the United States,” said Gary Cohn, Trump’s chief economic adviser, who is helping lead a task force developing Trump’s infrastructure plan. “The president wants to fix the problem.”

The flurry of planned activity comes as two other marquee Trump promises — overhauling the Affordable Care Act and cutting taxes — remain stalled in Congress, largely because of differences among fellow Republicans and the intricacies of the plans.

It’s unclear whether Trump’s promised infrastructure package, for which the administration hopes to attract bipartisan support, will fare any better when formally introduced in coming months.

Democrats sharply questioned Trump’s commitment to the issue following the administration’s release last month of a budget proposal that, by one accounting, included more cuts to existing infrastructure programs over the next decade than it contemplated in new federal spending.

Citing the analysis by his office, Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) declared on the Senate floor that “President Trump’s campaign promises on infrastructure are crumbling faster than our roads and bridges.”

Trump has proposed spending $200 billion over the 10-year period with the aim of attracting a total of at least $1 trillion in new investments with the help of the private sector and state and local governments. Democrats prefer a much larger infusion of federal money.

In a briefing for reporters, Trump administration officials acknowledged the timing of their infrastructure package remains up in the air but said they hope to move much more quickly on one piece of it: an effort to spin off control of day-to-day air traffic control functions from the federal government.

Trump has invited executives from the major airlines to join him in the Rose Garden on Monday as he touts a plan that aides argue would allow more rapid modernization of the air traffic control system if run by a nonprofit corporation rather than by the Federal Aviation Administration.

For months now, Cohn has been making presentations to interested parties, arguing the benefits of moving to a new GPS-based system for flights rather than the current land-based radar system. Among other things, he says, GPS will help pilots fly more direct routes, cutting down both flight times and fuel usage.

Cohn and other privatization advocates argue that government procurement rules and the uncertainties of the annual congressional budget process have undercut the FAA’s ability to move in that direction.

Aides say Trump’s proposal, which will be sent to Congress separately, is largely based on legislation authored last year by Rep. Bill Shuster (R-Penn.), chairman of the House Transportation Committee. The White House previously called his bill “an excellent starting point” for separating more than 30,000 FAA workers from the government.

Instead of current taxes on fuel and airline tickets, Shuster’s plan would rely on fees paid by aircraft operators. The FAA would retain its role as an oversight agency, much like the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which issues auto regulations and recalls faulty vehicles.

Although Shuster’s bill emerged from his committee last year, it never got a vote on the House floor. In the Senate, reaction was lukewarm among some key Republicans.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 22:23:31
June 03 2017 22:22 GMT
#155014
On June 04 2017 06:38 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 04 2017 06:34 zlefin wrote:
On June 04 2017 06:30 pmh wrote:
On June 03 2017 09:47 LegalLord wrote:
I predict that in a few years, instead of gasoline, our cars will run on the power of hope. Sure is a lot of that stuff around, we could probably use it as a power source.



You are such a troll lol,sometimes I wonder why people react seriously to you. Maybe you know them irl,i don't know.
Anyway,while I do agree with quiet a few of your opinions and projections I think you are wrong when it comes to electric cars. Electricity is the future and it will in the end replace all fossil. But this might still take a very long time,a lot of money is invested in the fossil industry and the lobby and money also effects policys and other investments. Musk is a true pioneer for trying to go against the mainstream. For electric cars to take over and become 50%+ of all vehicles,i doubt we will see that in this century but it will happen eventually. Untill then the tesla cars are a good niche at the worst,and a lot more at the best. Lots of people want to "go green" and tesla is one of the few brands to do so. It has become a sort of status symbol,a way to show that you care about the environment and that you have an enlightened spirit. The valuation of tesla is real,the stocks are bought and sold for that valuation every day. You wont get such a high price just from people who think tesla is cool,this is not the dot com bubble. There must be some real perspective for growth and sustainability to sustain such a high price. That you or I don't see it doesn't mean that it is not there.

why do you conclude it being impossible to be a bubble? such things are found in many fields outside the dotcom area.
Of course it probably has more to do with potential, much as in the dotcom fields; it's very hard to tell who's going ot win decades down the line, but if you pick the right ones they can absolutely explode in value.

I think we might well see electrics take over by the end of the century; a lot really depends on how battery/energy storage tech goes. There's nothing that promising in the next 20-30 years or so; but in 60 years? quite possibly. It's really just the battery issue keeping electric cars down; too bad battery tech hasn't gone as well as some other tech paths.


Compare Batteries from 10 years and to ones today and I think you will see some improvement.


How about coal from 10 years ago to coal today? I don't know that lithium metal oxide based batteries with silicon/carbon anodes have that much more room for improvement, even if the cutting edge hasn't quite been commercialized yet. Although the new Goodenough battery appears to defy physics:

In 1980, his work led to the invention of the lithium-ion battery — now crucial to powering everything from cellphones and laptops to electric cars. For a lot of people, that would probably be enough. But at 94 years old, he's still at it.

"All the young people that I had as postdocs are getting ready to retire," he says, laughing.

Now, Goodenough and his team say they've created a new battery that may store up to five times more power than current ones. And, even better, such a battery would charge and recharge in a matter of minutes — all without exploding.

…

"As revered and important as John Goodenough is," Steingart says, "the mechanism described to account for the anomalous capacity appeared to be in conflict with the first law of thermodynamics."

www.npr.org

See also:
[image loading]

https://medium.com/the-unfortunate-tetrahedron/a-potential-big-deal-in-batteries-298c7ad9543a
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-06-03 23:22:54
June 03 2017 23:17 GMT
#155015
Ffs...



"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
June 03 2017 23:48 GMT
#155016
You know, since Trump took office we haven't had a terrorist attack on US soil. We must be doing something right.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 03 2017 23:57 GMT
#155017
On June 04 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote:
You know, since Trump took office we haven't had a terrorist attack on US soil. We must be doing something right.

"I killed a puppy, but since it upset a liberal, I must be doing something right."
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
June 04 2017 00:00 GMT
#155018
On June 04 2017 08:48 LegalLord wrote:
You know, since Trump took office we haven't had a terrorist attack on US soil. We must be doing something right.



yeah that ban is working wonders. oh wait...
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
June 04 2017 00:07 GMT
#155019
Well maybe it was the idea of a ban that just scared em off and convinced them to go attack Europe instead?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
June 04 2017 00:11 GMT
#155020
On June 04 2017 09:07 LegalLord wrote:
Well maybe it was the idea of a ban that just scared em off and convinced them to go attack Europe instead?

Wow.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
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