|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 23 2017 06:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:01 Danglars wrote:On February 23 2017 05:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Mexico has indicated it would not accept the Trump administration’s new US immigration proposals, saying it would go to the United Nations to defend the rights of immigrants in the US.
Luis Videgaray, Mexico’s foreign minister, was responding to Donald Trump’s plans to enforce immigration rules more vigorously against undocumented migrants, which could lead to mass deportations to Mexico, not just of Mexicans but also citizens of other Latin American countries.
“We are not going to accept it because we don’t have to accept it,” Videgaray said, according to the Reforma newspaper. “I want to make clear, in the most emphatic way, that the government of Mexico and the Mexican people do not have to accept measures that one government wants to unilaterally impose on another.”
The sweeping measures were announced in Washington on the eve of a visit to Mexico by the US secretaries of state and homeland security that had been aimed at salvaging bilateral relations, currently at their lowest point in at least three decades.
Rex Tillerson and John Kelly are seeking to soothe Mexican fears in the wake of Trump’s new executive orders, the construction of a border wall that he insists Mexico be made to pay for, and his threat to unpick the 1994 Nafta free trade agreement that underpins the Mexican economy.
On Thursday, the two men, a former oil executive and a retired general, will meet the Mexican president, Enrique Peña Nieto, who abruptly cancelled a trip to Washington at the end of January after Trump sent out a tweet suggesting it was better not to come “if Mexico is unwilling to pay for the badly needed wall”.
Since then, Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and closest foreign policy adviser, has reportedly worked behind the scenes to limit the damage, helping broker a placatory phone conversation between the presidents on 27 January, and attending a meeting on 8 February in Washington between Tillerson and his Mexican counterpart, Videgaray, according to the Washington Post.
Kushner and Videgaray, who is Peña Nieto’s closest political adviser, were introduced by mutual friends in the business world, and their personal relationship has helped prevent an escalating war of words between the two capitals, diplomats said.
Videgaray has placed high stakes on the visit. “This is a moment of definition: the decisions we make in the coming months will determine how Mexico and the United States coexist for the next decades,” he was quoted as saying at the G20 meeting in Bonn last week by the Los Angeles Times.
But Mexican observers worry that the relationship with Kushner, who is 36 years old and has no previous foreign policy experience, is a thin reed on which to try to rebuild a profoundly damaged bilateral relationship.
“I don’t know if there is a strategy and if there is a strategy, the strategy is a person,” said Carlos Heredia, professor at the Centre for Research and Teaching in Economics in Mexico City.
The US state department referred questions about Kushner’s role to the White House, which did not respond. Source Mexico goes to UN to protest the US enforcing its own immigration laws? Hilarious, ineffective, and pathetic all in one. It's like the actual plan is to diminish the UN's waning influence. The US does not have the right to ship people into another country. Sovereignty ends at the border. The US can do what it pleases within the US but it cannot force Mexico to accept people it does not wish to. If you're still failing to understand this then consider the situation reversed, Mexico insisting that the US allow Brazilians to enter the US without visas.
US has a right to deport Mexicans to Mexico (Whether they should or not is another matter that I'm not going into). They don't have a right to deport any other nationality of immigrant, legal or illegal to Mexico.
|
Arguably, as a billionaire who won the presidency, he isn't an idiot. Unqualified, yes, but not necessarily an idiot.
|
United States43293 Posts
On February 23 2017 06:24 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:05 KwarK wrote:On February 23 2017 06:01 Danglars wrote:On February 23 2017 05:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Mexico has indicated it would not accept the Trump administration’s new US immigration proposals, saying it would go to the United Nations to defend the rights of immigrants in the US.
Luis Videgaray, Mexico’s foreign minister, was responding to Donald Trump’s plans to enforce immigration rules more vigorously against undocumented migrants, which could lead to mass deportations to Mexico, not just of Mexicans but also citizens of other Latin American countries.
“We are not going to accept it because we don’t have to accept it,” Videgaray said, according to the Reforma newspaper. “I want to make clear, in the most emphatic way, that the government of Mexico and the Mexican people do not have to accept measures that one government wants to unilaterally impose on another.”
The sweeping measures were announced in Washington on the eve of a visit to Mexico by the US secretaries of state and homeland security that had been aimed at salvaging bilateral relations, currently at their lowest point in at least three decades.
Rex Tillerson and John Kelly are seeking to soothe Mexican fears in the wake of Trump’s new executive orders, the construction of a border wall that he insists Mexico be made to pay for, and his threat to unpick the 1994 Nafta free trade agreement that underpins the Mexican economy.
On Thursday, the two men, a former oil executive and a retired general, will meet the Mexican president, Enrique Peña Nieto, who abruptly cancelled a trip to Washington at the end of January after Trump sent out a tweet suggesting it was better not to come “if Mexico is unwilling to pay for the badly needed wall”.
Since then, Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and closest foreign policy adviser, has reportedly worked behind the scenes to limit the damage, helping broker a placatory phone conversation between the presidents on 27 January, and attending a meeting on 8 February in Washington between Tillerson and his Mexican counterpart, Videgaray, according to the Washington Post.
Kushner and Videgaray, who is Peña Nieto’s closest political adviser, were introduced by mutual friends in the business world, and their personal relationship has helped prevent an escalating war of words between the two capitals, diplomats said.
Videgaray has placed high stakes on the visit. “This is a moment of definition: the decisions we make in the coming months will determine how Mexico and the United States coexist for the next decades,” he was quoted as saying at the G20 meeting in Bonn last week by the Los Angeles Times.
But Mexican observers worry that the relationship with Kushner, who is 36 years old and has no previous foreign policy experience, is a thin reed on which to try to rebuild a profoundly damaged bilateral relationship.
“I don’t know if there is a strategy and if there is a strategy, the strategy is a person,” said Carlos Heredia, professor at the Centre for Research and Teaching in Economics in Mexico City.
The US state department referred questions about Kushner’s role to the White House, which did not respond. Source Mexico goes to UN to protest the US enforcing its own immigration laws? Hilarious, ineffective, and pathetic all in one. It's like the actual plan is to diminish the UN's waning influence. The US does not have the right to ship people into another country. Sovereignty ends at the border. The US can do what it pleases within the US but it cannot force Mexico to accept people it does not wish to. If you're still failing to understand this then consider the situation reversed, Mexico insisting that the US allow Brazilians to enter the US without visas. US has a right to deport Mexicans to Mexico (Whether they should or not is another matter that I'm not going into). They don't have a right to deport any other nationality of immigrant, legal or illegal to Mexico.
Even that's arguable. Mexico has an obligation to accept Mexican citizens because refusing to take them would render them nationless which would be super shitty. But that doesn't mean that Mexico must accept them. There is nothing that Mexico must do within Mexico, it's a sovereign nation. If it wanted it could simply turn the planes carrying deported Mexicans around.
|
On February 23 2017 06:25 LegalLord wrote:
Arguably, as a billionaire who won the presidency, he isn't an idiot. Unqualified, yes, but not necessarily an idiot.
Just because the street is wet does not mean it is raining.
There is a good chance, but far from guaranteed.
|
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that).
|
On February 23 2017 06:25 LegalLord wrote:
Arguably, as a billionaire who won the presidency, he isn't an idiot. Unqualified, yes, but not necessarily an idiot.
I'd leave it at "incompetent". Less of a value judgment and more of an assessment of how everything his administration does has played out.
|
On February 23 2017 06:30 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:24 Amui wrote:On February 23 2017 06:05 KwarK wrote:On February 23 2017 06:01 Danglars wrote:On February 23 2017 05:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Mexico has indicated it would not accept the Trump administration’s new US immigration proposals, saying it would go to the United Nations to defend the rights of immigrants in the US.
Luis Videgaray, Mexico’s foreign minister, was responding to Donald Trump’s plans to enforce immigration rules more vigorously against undocumented migrants, which could lead to mass deportations to Mexico, not just of Mexicans but also citizens of other Latin American countries.
“We are not going to accept it because we don’t have to accept it,” Videgaray said, according to the Reforma newspaper. “I want to make clear, in the most emphatic way, that the government of Mexico and the Mexican people do not have to accept measures that one government wants to unilaterally impose on another.”
The sweeping measures were announced in Washington on the eve of a visit to Mexico by the US secretaries of state and homeland security that had been aimed at salvaging bilateral relations, currently at their lowest point in at least three decades.
Rex Tillerson and John Kelly are seeking to soothe Mexican fears in the wake of Trump’s new executive orders, the construction of a border wall that he insists Mexico be made to pay for, and his threat to unpick the 1994 Nafta free trade agreement that underpins the Mexican economy.
On Thursday, the two men, a former oil executive and a retired general, will meet the Mexican president, Enrique Peña Nieto, who abruptly cancelled a trip to Washington at the end of January after Trump sent out a tweet suggesting it was better not to come “if Mexico is unwilling to pay for the badly needed wall”.
Since then, Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and closest foreign policy adviser, has reportedly worked behind the scenes to limit the damage, helping broker a placatory phone conversation between the presidents on 27 January, and attending a meeting on 8 February in Washington between Tillerson and his Mexican counterpart, Videgaray, according to the Washington Post.
Kushner and Videgaray, who is Peña Nieto’s closest political adviser, were introduced by mutual friends in the business world, and their personal relationship has helped prevent an escalating war of words between the two capitals, diplomats said.
Videgaray has placed high stakes on the visit. “This is a moment of definition: the decisions we make in the coming months will determine how Mexico and the United States coexist for the next decades,” he was quoted as saying at the G20 meeting in Bonn last week by the Los Angeles Times.
But Mexican observers worry that the relationship with Kushner, who is 36 years old and has no previous foreign policy experience, is a thin reed on which to try to rebuild a profoundly damaged bilateral relationship.
“I don’t know if there is a strategy and if there is a strategy, the strategy is a person,” said Carlos Heredia, professor at the Centre for Research and Teaching in Economics in Mexico City.
The US state department referred questions about Kushner’s role to the White House, which did not respond. Source Mexico goes to UN to protest the US enforcing its own immigration laws? Hilarious, ineffective, and pathetic all in one. It's like the actual plan is to diminish the UN's waning influence. The US does not have the right to ship people into another country. Sovereignty ends at the border. The US can do what it pleases within the US but it cannot force Mexico to accept people it does not wish to. If you're still failing to understand this then consider the situation reversed, Mexico insisting that the US allow Brazilians to enter the US without visas. US has a right to deport Mexicans to Mexico (Whether they should or not is another matter that I'm not going into). They don't have a right to deport any other nationality of immigrant, legal or illegal to Mexico. Even that's arguable. Mexico has an obligation to accept Mexican citizens because refusing to take them would render them nationless which would be super shitty. But that doesn't mean that Mexico must accept them. There is nothing that Mexico must do within Mexico, it's a sovereign nation. If it wanted it could simply turn the planes carrying deported Mexicans around.
They can simply change the rules and demand documentation proving the deportees are Mexican citizens before they will be accepted. What are we going to do, shove them on random flights to Mexico and hope Mexico lets them off the plane?
Trumps attempts to bully other nations have logistics issues.
|
On February 23 2017 06:25 LegalLord wrote:
Arguably, as a billionaire who won the presidency, he isn't an idiot. Unqualified, yes, but not necessarily an idiot.
I'd say he's a lucky idiot who never doubts himself and doesn't care about other people. It might get you far in life by brute forcing deals and screwing over employees and contractors but doesn't make you a very great or smart person. And he's lucky to be born rich and have lawyers to save him.
|
On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that).
What do you think about Dean endorsing Buttkeg, if anything at all?
|
On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that).
Except for the part where he lost the last Democratic popularity contest, the Primary.
Edit:
To expand a bit, I can see a case for going in his direction. Heck at the start of the primary I was for him, only later turned off by his lack of details on how to accomplish his stated goals.
But your going a bit far in claiming him 'the most popular politician alive'
|
On February 23 2017 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that). Except for the part where he lost the last Democratic popularity contest, the Primary.
Without getting into why that doesn't matter as much when the election isn't limited to the Democratic party or the slanted playing field, are you going to argue that Hillary is more popular now, or just that she was at some point? Because I'm talking about now and moving forward.
On February 23 2017 06:38 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that). What do you think about Dean endorsing Buttkeg, if anything at all?
Meh, hard to take someone named "Buttkeg" seriously, though that might have something to do with a butt chugging contest I witnessed in college.
Ronan is the only one willing to tackle the anger over the primary, but he likely lacks the connections and some of the knowledge that would make for an effective chair, so Ellison is probably the best we get. He's shown he's willing to concede more than the Bernie wing would like to the establishment (they should be happy with that and stop fighting us), but not so much as to be unacceptable at the moment.
Perez is a big middle finger to the millennial wing of the Democratic party that overwhelmingly supported Bernie.
|
On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that).
Reminder that much of Bernie's criticisms were that he says things people like without a thought-out plan to implement them, much like a current sitting President.
|
On February 23 2017 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that). Except for the part where he lost the last Democratic popularity contest, the Primary. Without getting into why that doesn't matter as much when the election isn't limited to the Democratic party or the slanted playing field, are you going to argue that Hillary is more popular now, or just that she was at some point? Because I'm talking about now and moving forward.
Sorry, see my edited post.
|
One would think Pence would have been smarter than this:
|
On February 23 2017 06:43 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2017 06:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 23 2017 06:39 Gorsameth wrote:On February 23 2017 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Going into the DNC debate, I think it's important to remember that of the DNC bench Bernie is by far the most popular, more popular than the Democratic party, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Warren, Congress, Trump, Republicans, etc...
Remember that as the candidates try to tell us why they shouldn't go the direction Bernie is suggesting, and instead double down on with the folks who lost 2016 to Trump (and a whole crap-ton of seats before that). Except for the part where he lost the last Democratic popularity contest, the Primary. Without getting into why that doesn't matter as much when the election isn't limited to the Democratic party or the slanted playing field, are you going to argue that Hillary is more popular now, or just that she was at some point? Because I'm talking about now and moving forward. Sorry, see my edited post.
The only other one that's close is Obama (who won't be running for anything any time soon). That's just the reality of the situation. So no, I don't think it's going to far.
EDIT: When you see how obvious it is that Bernie's leading in the right direction, it also becomes obvious and puzzling as to why the Hillary wing of the Democratic establishment is still trying to marginalize him and his supporters.
|
He is a radio talk show host who got elected and then voted out of his state due to causing a massive HIV outbreak through terrible policies.
Pence is not a smart man. But he can fake it.
|
Am I missing something? He seems to be thanking the people who cleaned up the vandalism, not condoning more vandalism.
|
On February 23 2017 07:09 Sbrubbles wrote:Am I missing something? He seems to be thanking the people who cleaned up the vandalism, not condoning more vandalism.
No one has a problem with the message, only the optics of having a photo op as a desecrated grave site. Maybe do that with the people away from the cemetery.
|
It seems impossible to me that the usa can deport illegal non Mexicans to mexico , Unless maybe they can somehow prove that they came into the usa via mexico. I am not sure on international law on that. But I doubt that is the intention of the administration,it is probably a sort of miscommunication/misunderstanding.
pence,i thought he was a lawyer and not a radio host?
with the picture I don't see anything wrong,i think it wont reflect negatively on him in any way. Him being there and showing compassion is a positive image I think,much like leaders who visit sites of natural disasters.
|
On February 23 2017 07:44 pmh wrote:
It seems impossible to me that the usa can deport illegal non Mexicans to mexico , Unless maybe they can somehow prove that they came into the usa via mexico. I am not sure on international law on that. But I doubt that is the intention of the administration,it is probably a sort of miscommunication/misunderstanding.
pence,i thought he was a lawyer and not a radio host?
Well they banned Green card holders before and said it was on purpose so...
No, I think they actually believed they could just deport everyone to Mexico.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
