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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 13 2016 01:17 GMT
#110701
Imagine how infuriated Donald is right now. Word is his brand and business are taking a hit from all this, too.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42636 Posts
October 13 2016 01:20 GMT
#110702
Good news for him is that his brand is fucking sky high right now with like 20% of the American public. Bad news is that of that 20% exactly 0% have the money to afford Trump branded anything.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
October 13 2016 01:20 GMT
#110703
On October 13 2016 10:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Imagine how infuriated Donald is right now. Word is his brand and business are taking a hit from all this, too.


I hope he uses the third debate as a platform to attack the media, this coordinated character assassination is ridiculous. Meanwhile nobody cares the Clinton campaign shit talked catholics, oh but if it were muslims though the outrage!
Question.?
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13921 Posts
October 13 2016 01:21 GMT
#110704
On October 13 2016 10:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Imagine how infuriated Donald is right now. Word is his brand and business are taking a hit from all this, too.

I think its pretty clear his brand is ruined for the greater majority of his business. A majority of the populace is not going to see anything with trump in its name in a positive light.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 13 2016 01:22 GMT
#110705
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
October 13 2016 01:25 GMT
#110706
On October 13 2016 10:16 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2016 06:18 Plansix wrote:
On October 13 2016 06:11 Sermokala wrote:
On October 13 2016 06:02 Plansix wrote:
On October 13 2016 05:54 Sermokala wrote:
On October 13 2016 05:40 Plansix wrote:
On October 13 2016 05:35 Sermokala wrote:
On October 13 2016 05:19 Plansix wrote:
On October 13 2016 05:07 Sermokala wrote:
On October 13 2016 05:02 LegalLord wrote:
The NRA has a habit of being remarkably obtuse on "common sense gun regulation" that simply seeks to give law enforcement the ability to keep guns out of the hands of obviously unqualified people. It doesn't do them any favors.

But you have to keep in mind that you're talking about (what is now) a constitutional right. "common sense gun regulation" is common sense but a lot of it is pretty sticky when it comes to actually enforcing it. Are you advocating for police to take away your guns or search your house and body for guns if they or others judge you unqualified to have them? Not saying you directly but making a point about it.

Universal background check without a possible national registry is a hard sell to make with anyone no matter how many "do you want ice cream" polls you have.

Reductive arguments that constantly claim that any sort of regulation is impossible because gun ownership is a basic right and to risky are the reason we can’t have discussions on the subject. Speech and voting are also rights, but we limit those. Same with religion. We can restrict rights as long as everyone is allowed due process.

And the arguments would hold more water if the NRA and gun lobby was not trying to limit every aspect of the government’s interaction with guns. The CDC can’t do researching into gun violence. Sections of the government designed to regulate are prohibited from creating data bases. I have not checked recently, but there was a while where in the late 2000s where the ATF couldn’t make requests about gun sales using a computer.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/26/us/legislative-handcuffs-limit-atfs-ability-to-fight-gun-crime.html?_r=0

So as much as I love the discussion about guns being a basic right, we really need to get down the fundamental that the gun lobby is preventing laws that currently exist on the books from being enforced.

I'm not saying any regulation is impossible beacuse gun ownership is a basic right I'm saying that the regulations proposed by the left won't do anything but limit rights. How is the NRA and gun lobby any different then the lobby organizations for gun control? The CDC can't do research into gun violence because they were partisan when they were allowed to and we can't alllow government agencies to be openly partisan like that. Sections of the government are prohibited from keeping lists of people who have guns because keeping lists of people for specific reasons are scary.

What we really need to get down to is discussing why we really want gun control and how to peruse those reasons while balancing the limit of a constitutional right like any other constitutional right. Making the argument about one side or the other is the antithesis of any reasonable debate.

That rule on the CDC was passed in the 90s. It has been almost 20 years and I doubt may of the people who worked there still do. This is the arguments I am talking about. You say you are for gun control, but then we get an endless line of what-about-the-left. You bring up an agencies actions from nearly 20 years ago and assume we can never let them do research again because of that.

How about this, no new laws for 4 years, but we fund every agency and remove all restrictions on collecting data on gun violence and gun sales?

The argument is that if we fund them again whats to stop them from being partisan again? Its not like they came out and said "we're going to collect information to advocate for gun control". The very data that they collect would be hamstrung from the start as people scope over it for the slightest reason to call them partisan again and their defenders argue against these calls. That they would come from the obvious different sides of the isle automatically makes them partisan even without trying to be partisan from the start. Then we get a bunch of tainted data politically that doesn't help anyone but those that are trying to score political points.

We already have data from various sources even if they aren't complete. the CDC at least keeps track of what people are dieing from and the FBI keeps track of what people are being murdered by.
https://www.quandl.com/data/FBI/WEAPONS11-US-Murders-by-Weapon-Type

That isn’t an argument. That is just the slippery slope fallacy. Guns are not some magical issue that are immune to unbiased research.

I put that suggestion out there to see if you would provide some sort of counter offer. But you have reverted to the default “We can’t be 100% the research won’t be biased, so we can’t have any” argument. Which is an effort to keep the discussion where it is, without solutions or suggestions.

Do you truly believe it is impossible to have accurate scientific research performed or funded by the government on gun violence? And do you believe it is impossible the government to have a data base and data on gun sales and not infringe on the right to own guns?

Its not a slippery slope argument when theres no slope to slip on. Its an argument of whats the point when it will do nothing from the start. I'm not saying the research would be biased I'm perfectly sure the average or right group of people would be non partisan and the truth would and could go either way. I'm saying that the research they do will be partisan by the people that use the research. It has nothing to do with the research at all.

I say no to both you're questions. I think the government could and should fund research on a bunch of different policies and it should be its own department. I'm saying you don't think through your arguments past "are they good" and ignore what will happen if they become real policy. You aren't arguing the same things I'm arguing.

Thank you for clearing that up. You are correct, we have nothing further to discuss on the subject as we hold views on the value “unbiased” research and if the government is capable of it.

Did you even read
Show nested quote +
I'm not saying the research would be biased I'm perfectly sure the average or right group of people would be non partisan and the truth would and could go either way.

I'm saying right there that the government is capable of unbiased research and that I would value it. How you miss such a simple argument such as

The research isn't the problem

What people will do with the research is the problem

Is beyond me. At least you're consistent in being obstinate with that comment about it being a tactic. The problem with GOVERNMENT research being biased is that it being GOVERNMENT research means that it has a greater authority on the issue then that of a third party doing the research. You can bet your ass you won't give NRA research a half look as much as you would "women against gun violence" because they're clearly both agenda based organizations. But if its the government doing the research then it has weight and is suppose to be unbiased. so It being partisan is a big issue because you're giveing one side or the other extra support.


That's not how science works.
Logo
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 13 2016 01:26 GMT
#110707
On October 13 2016 10:20 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2016 10:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Imagine how infuriated Donald is right now. Word is his brand and business are taking a hit from all this, too.


I hope he uses the third debate as a platform to attack the media, this coordinated character assassination is ridiculous. Meanwhile nobody cares the Clinton campaign shit talked catholics, oh but if it were muslims though the outrage!


If it's true, is it character assassination?
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
October 13 2016 01:26 GMT
#110708
Trump keeps his ISIS plans secret but doesn't keep his Clinton plan secret. I'm not sure what this means.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Ropid
Profile Joined March 2009
Germany3557 Posts
October 13 2016 01:27 GMT
#110709
On October 13 2016 08:13 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2016 08:06 Doodsmack wrote:
Surprised that anyone is still clinging to Donald "The Titanic" Trump. I guess the establishment has claimed all the lifeboats.

I think that this is such a unique situation that people are not fully grasping just how unique it is. The idea of not supporting a republican running against Clinton must feel like such an utterly ridiculous and unthinkable thing that people are having a hard time seeing "Wait, maybe this situation is so utterly fucked up that yes, it actually *does* make sense". And it is understandable. Voting for a republican feels absurd to me.

I can't imagine a situation where I'd vote for a republican. But what if Ja Rule was the democratic nominee? Michael Moore? Maybe I actually would vote R. It's hard to put myself in a situation where my nominee was truly unqualified and had absolutely no business being president under any circumstances. But that's what they got. This has never happened before and likely never will again. Its just such a bizarre situation and I think people aren't giving enough credit to how fucked up this whole thing is.

This whole situation feels surreal looking at it from outside the US. I guess people who don't agree with Clinton's politics feel basically disenfranchised without voting Trump so they are stuck.

This seems like a massive failure of the media and the party. This particular misogyny scandal right now should have been discussed in the media before or while the primaries were going on. At that point, the party should then have been able to present a clean option with similar appeal as Trump instead of the candidates that failed against him.

About what Trump's appeal was in the primaries, when I tried to answer that question, the argument that seemed most convincing to me was there being certain taboos in the party that no one except Trump argued about.

Two things were interesting to me. One was military interventions like Iraq being seen as failure in their result, and also a bad idea in the first place. It seems like Trump was the only one that argued this? The other thing was what's up with globalization and what it does to previously safe lower middle-class jobs, things like supporting your family with one or two incomes of being a shift worker in some factory for your whole life. It seems being against free trade is taboo in the party, except for Trump.

The situation in the other party also looks ugly to me. I feel over here, those speeches with $200k+ speaking fees would be unacceptable to voters so I can't really understand how a candidate like this is possible. The party should have presented an attractive alternative with similar policies for people to choose in the primary.

Basically, I don't get it.
"My goal is to replace my soul with coffee and become immortal."
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
October 13 2016 01:28 GMT
#110710
On October 13 2016 10:26 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2016 10:20 biology]major wrote:
On October 13 2016 10:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Imagine how infuriated Donald is right now. Word is his brand and business are taking a hit from all this, too.


I hope he uses the third debate as a platform to attack the media, this coordinated character assassination is ridiculous. Meanwhile nobody cares the Clinton campaign shit talked catholics, oh but if it were muslims though the outrage!


If it's true, is it character assassination?


I'm more concerned with the coordinated and condensed nature of reporting 1 month before the election. The motive is not to report the news but to prevent Trump from being president.
Question.?
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42636 Posts
October 13 2016 01:28 GMT
#110711
Trump's misogyny was discussed in the media during the primaries. It turned out it was actually a point in his favour with the Republican base. Unfortunately it's not a vote winner with the rest of the voting population. But this didn't come from nowhere, they knew it about him, they just liked it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9635 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-13 01:29:52
October 13 2016 01:28 GMT
#110712
On October 13 2016 10:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/786371522281676801


This is what happens when you just wing it and hope for the best in every interview, appearance and debate over the course of months.
Eventually your words come back and bite you in the ass.

Of course now that has happened the Trump crew cry character assassination and go back to blaming the media. "Sure he's a sexual predator but the media is at fault for reporting on it right before the election."

Conveniently (of course) forgetting that his being a sexual predator should probably disqualify him from positions of responsibility and authority.
RIP Meatloaf <3
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-13 01:30:56
October 13 2016 01:29 GMT
#110713
An apt passage to the current political climate I stumbled upon reading some Vonnegut (Bluebeard, 1987):

The darkest secret of this country, I am afraid, is that too many of its citizens imagine that they belong to a much higher civilization somewhere else. That higher civilization doesn't have to be another country. It can be the past instead-the United States as it was before it was spoiled by immigrants and the enfrachisement of the blacks.

This state of mind allows too many of us to lie and cheat and steal from the rest of us, to sell us junk and addictive poisons and corrupting entertainments. What are the rest of us, after all, but sub-human aborigines?


On October 13 2016 10:28 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 13 2016 10:26 Doodsmack wrote:
On October 13 2016 10:20 biology]major wrote:
On October 13 2016 10:17 Doodsmack wrote:
Imagine how infuriated Donald is right now. Word is his brand and business are taking a hit from all this, too.


I hope he uses the third debate as a platform to attack the media, this coordinated character assassination is ridiculous. Meanwhile nobody cares the Clinton campaign shit talked catholics, oh but if it were muslims though the outrage!


If it's true, is it character assassination?


I'm more concerned with the coordinated and condensed nature of reporting 1 month before the election. The motive is not to report the news but to prevent Trump from being president.


My understanding is that many of the stories are women coming forward after feeling insulted at his defense at the debate, rather than the media dredging them up.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 13 2016 01:37 GMT
#110714
Yeah these women coming forward is in response to stuff going public and Donald denying it. That's the same reason Juanita Broaddrick recently came forward - Hillary said on twitter all victims deserve to be believed.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9635 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-13 01:38:35
October 13 2016 01:37 GMT
#110715


The first legislative body to pass a motion officially condemning Trump,in New South Wales, Australia.
RIP Meatloaf <3
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-13 01:39:27
October 13 2016 01:38 GMT
#110716
On October 13 2016 10:28 KwarK wrote:
Trump's misogyny was discussed in the media during the primaries. It turned out it was actually a point in his favour with the Republican base. Unfortunately it's not a vote winner with the rest of the voting population. But this didn't come from nowhere, they knew it about him, they just liked it.

Exactly. So many members of this thread was beating the drum about this the first time he said "blood coming out of her you know what." A year later, we receive confirmation of what we knew all along, Trump sexual is a predator.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42636 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-10-13 01:43:04
October 13 2016 01:40 GMT
#110717
Doodsmack, believed and taken seriously by the police, not by the wife of the accused. Demanding family members of the accused believe it would be absurd. The issue is the police not giving victims of sexual assault the same presumption that a crime happened (and investigating accordingly) as they do for other crimes. The wife of the accused is not meant to be an advocate for the victim, the justice system is.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 13 2016 01:41 GMT
#110718
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9635 Posts
October 13 2016 01:41 GMT
#110719
On October 13 2016 10:40 KwarK wrote:
Doodsmack, believed and taken seriously by the police, not by the wife of the accused. Demanding family members of the accused believe it would be absurd.


Absurd, but not entirely unrealistic of what has frankly been an absurd year or so.
RIP Meatloaf <3
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 13 2016 01:43 GMT
#110720
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
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