EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4712
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On August 12 2016 02:52 Dan HH wrote: "I like Trump because he tells it like it is and hires the best people, but he didn't meant what he just said and it's not his fault his staff is full of nutjobs" Still better than a corrupt liberal. I can't wait to see what wiki leaks is gonna drop the month of the election | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28922 Posts
Then again, if part of your political platform is that the 'experts' are wrong, I guess actual experts are likely not to want to be part of your campaign. Still though, this is very low on my list of stuff to criticize Trump based on. | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
I'd like to ask some of the recent converts what finally put them over the edge to stop supporting him? | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 12 2016 00:08 Doodsmack wrote: I just have to stand in disbelief when I mention the difference in tone and draw a distinction along other lines, then back comes a response pretending I'm making a separate claim.Yes, pretend Trump's rhetoric is not fundamentally more foul than that of others. Whatever makes you comfortable in your support of Trump, honesty be damned. On August 12 2016 00:15 Velr wrote: @Danglars The left/center left wasn't nice to Clinton at all, remember Bernie Sanders? She is actually what most actual leftist would search in a "moderate republican", before your party went into batshitcrazyland. Uhm... The right wing even shut down the goverment over totally unrelated stuff and now its somehow Obamas fault for not thinking about your sides feelings and inputs as much anymore? He tried to play nice for way too long, the right/reps very clearly showed that they had no interest in any sane discourse. How is this now suddenly the lefts fault? Aside from the fact that well, he is a democratic president and therefore didn't really stand for republican values... Obama isn't really "leftist", what he is probably what you would call a socially progressive moderate. I don't fault Obama for shutting down the government when he was handed budgets he didn't like. He was faced with a craven opposition and sent them running. You'd have to define your terms if you want to carry an argument on left/right. He isn't a hard leftist in a European sense, or a global sense. In the American context, yes he undoubtedly is. Obamacare with its individual mandate, executive action on immigration, and the growth of power and reach of the bureaucracy stand among the reasons. On August 12 2016 00:39 Liquid`Drone wrote: See, I get where you're coming from. I get that sometimes world views just clash and it's difficult to find common ground. With me and you, I feel it's like that - I respect your intellect and there have been several occasions where I've read your posts and thought 'yeah, that actually is an example of leftist hypocricy, never thought of that before' or something to that effect. But even then, I think both our visions of what the world should ideally be like and our understanding of how it currently is and what made it that way are so different that it is difficult for us to reach political common ground. I can live with this - because even though I really disagree with you, I can see how your interpretation is valid, and I don't think you're just lying and making stuff up. I also get that the left is guilty of spinning. But I do not agree that the degrees are comparable, and I also think tone actually matters. Trump's lies are beyond the type of spin-doctoring you see from top level politicians, he really has upped the game. I understand that people see Hillary as crooked, I understand why she's considered untrustworthy, and yeah, she has flat out lied on some occasions, but they're just.. they're not the same. Anti-Trump ads usually just feature him - sometimes unedited. Anti-Hillary/Obama attacks are conspiratorial and sometimes completely invented. Any other republican candidate, even Cruz, would not be attacked the way Trump is, and would not be accused of destroying the political discourse in the way he is. Cherrypicking statistics is a bad thing (if you need to cherrypick then you probably should have adjusted your initial argument instead), saying that you were under gunfire when that obviously wasn't the case is a stupid lie, but it's not comparable to the type of Robert Stone 'Hillary is a murdering lesbian' bullshit Trump is either enabling or straight out saying. While I myself obviously think that my political opinions are better than yours, or I would change them, I don't think that leftists are inherently better than conservatives. In Norway, arguably my two favorite politicians both belong to the conservative party - even though I've never been remotely close to considering voting for them. I think Gary Johnson comes off as a more respectable and likable guy than Hillary, and one it's possible to have actual discourse with even when coming from different world views. But with Trump? I might as well argue with a loudspeaker quoting random sentences from Finnegans Wake or something. I can respect your point of view. I thank you for your intellectual honesty looking at both sides and knowing that different worldviews comes to different conclusions. I can even imagine a different American political history of 20th century and 21st century when a voice as coarse as Trump's wouldn't see the light of day. The legacy of moving right-of-center ideas out of civil discourse has changed much of that. Talking about building a wall and curtailing an open borders policy in practice is racist--the only acceptable immigration positions are comprehensive or lawful open borders. I could give other examples but this response will already be long. The American political scene was ready for a loud voice to push back against the norms and the problem was Trump, not Cruz/Walker/X, was out in front with the media hype giving him abundant airtime. When he verged into some truly ridiculous paths, it was already too late ... he'd been illegitimately criticized for bringing legitimate issues to the table (Mostly in the Trump vs Bush phase of the campaign), and now legitimate criticism was just going to remind every voter how unfit the criticizers remained. So I preach understanding of tone. When both sides of a political establishment have sold out their voters to one degree or another, everyone wants to hear someone get mad about it. Not talk in muted tones about changing the face of Washington, because that's the same tripe they peddled when nobody thought of changing Washington after election season. I'll say it again: the 'smart' people elected smooth talking politicians that said they'd fix a bloated government and reform healthcare and entitlements, no real attempt of any kind was made and fought for with vigor. People that still believe in that mold of politicians were revealed to be dumb. Responsive representatives in a republic would create no need for a Trump figure. I think in your neck of the woods, you can spot the rise of right-nationalist parties since representatives in European nations and EU leadership have pushed immigration policies against their citizen's consent with the levels of settling refugees/economic migrants. It's a shitty situation, the rhetoric is regrettable in a civil society, but the real problem is creating the environment for responsible government that denies crazies anything but the fringe. I can pretend it is within my power to change human nature, but it's not. If an entrenched political establishment denies voters a voice on the issues long enough and hard enough, it's not the mild-mannered orator that wins support it's the boisterous braggart. I decry the appalling state of public school education in this country that led to support for Luddite positions on trade. I can't forgive the political class either for writing such pork-filled long trade bills and hiding it from view (eg TPP). I'm resigned to today's discourse and maybe another two elections of it until new Republican leadership is found and new Republican statesmen can articulate the conservative worldview and be believed that they'll fight for it if elected. If elected, Trump might do some good upending of some very corrupt practices though I can't hope for my policies seeing the light of day. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 12 2016 02:58 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I like Trump because the enemy of my enemy is my friend The origin story of Osama Bin Laden. | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On August 12 2016 02:58 a_flayer wrote: I'm just so relieved that the American public finally seems to be coming to their senses. I was almost willing to go on my knees and beg people not to vote Trump. It was terrifying watching this over the past few months without being able to influence the results. I couldn't believe it when it started to become a real possibility that he would be voted into office... I just don't understand how people can still defend that man after all this. I'd like to ask some of the recent converts what finally put them over the edge to stop supporting him? The tipping point for me was his incompetence recently, he should have stayed on message after rnc and watched Clinton defeat herself. Instead he takes the attention off policy and goes into controversy after controversy which lets Clinton go completely invisible in the media. I don't support him, but I will still probably vote for him. Anti Clinton is all it is at this point. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On August 12 2016 02:56 Plansix wrote: The same shit people have been attacking the Clintons with for 20 years. Vague allusions to corruption that don’t every pan our or stand up to scrutiny. More like technically legal but ultimately shitty dealings that aren't going to get a conviction but fully justify the untrustworthy reputation that Hillary has. | ||
KwarK
United States44439 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
"Trump voters are like Bin Laden" I expect no less from you | ||
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oBlade
United States6677 Posts
More like the Overmind's defeat. | ||
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farvacola
United States18875 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:04 KwarK wrote: I can understand not wanting Clinton to be president but not wanting Clinton to be president so badly that you'll take Trump? I don't get it. I honestly think in the grand scheme of things it won't even be that bad if Clinton is elected president. LOL | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:04 KwarK wrote: I can understand not wanting Clinton to be president but not wanting Clinton to be president so badly that you'll take Trump? I don't get it. Reminds me of a joke I heard at a stand-up club a few weeks ago. Americans have been fed up with politics for a while. People are angry. It's like we've been trying to get our car repaired, and wev taken it to six different mechanics, and all of them either can't fix it or make it worse. Voting for trump is like saying "fuck it, I'm just gonna hire a clown to sit on my hood." | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9256 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: "Trump voters are like Bin Laden" I expect no less from you He didn't imply that at all, he merely showed you an example of why 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' is a flawed platitude | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:07 farvacola wrote: Reductive logic begets reductive characterizations. Whodathunkit? There is nothing problematic with the logic. It's just another way of saying "I'm not voting for Trump because I think he adequately represents my interests, but because I think he will better represent my interests than Clinton". On August 12 2016 03:09 Dan HH wrote: He didn't imply that at all, he merely showed you an example of why 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' is a flawed platitude -eyeroll- | ||
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KwarK
United States44439 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:09 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I honestly think in the grand scheme of things it won't even be that bad if Clinton is elected president. I think there's probably a better than 90% chance I'd survive a Trump presidency. But still. I mean Jesus, can we not do better than that? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:03 LegalLord wrote: More like technically legal but ultimately shitty dealings that aren't going to get a conviction but fully justify the untrustworthy reputation that Hillary has. With the amount of effort by Republicans to discredit the Clinton's over the decades, you would think there would be more? Every time they run for office there is a new round of investigations by congress that at best turned up perjury or systemic problem with email in the state department. Both are bad, but I'm not going to say I wouldn't perjury myself if asked the same question Bill was. After two decades of trying to sell the same story to the US voters, you think the Republicans would have realized that people are not buying? It just seems to be part of their default plan for goverment, which is to demonize the other side rather than just present policy. They adopted the same plan with Obama once he got into office and have been riding that wave for 8 years. As someone pointed out, the Republican leader of the Senate promised to make Obama a one term president, like him receiving a public mandate from the voters didn't matter. They are the boy who cried wolf and they don't know it. | ||
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