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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21687 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:06 GGTeMpLaR wrote: "Trump voters are like Bin Laden" I expect no less from you You making the connection to "trump voters are bin laden" is a nice leap. He means the saying 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' is a shit reasoning that can explain a thousand and one terrible things through history. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:12 KwarK wrote: I think there's probably a better than 90% chance I'd survive a Trump presidency. But still. I mean Jesus, can we not do better than that? Dark times we live in, Kwark. Dark times | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:12 KwarK wrote: I think there's probably a better than 90% chance I'd survive a Trump presidency. But still. I mean Jesus, can we not do better than that? No we really can't. The politicians need a time out and go the corrupt corner of the classroom and think about their mistakes for the next 4 years. In the meantime I'll enjoy a clown on the hood of my car as another poster said. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
it's also not really an effective rebuke of politicians anyways; as it's not clear which rebuke is being done, or to whom it's directed. Generalized anger without a sound plan to actually fix the issues doesn't help much. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:04 KwarK wrote: I can understand not wanting Clinton to be president but not wanting Clinton to be president so badly that you'll take Trump? I don't get it. Things would have to be a lot worse for me to consider Trump, or more generally the Republican Party, over even Hillary. But holy fuck is that a bad option. And I don't see any desire for change within the party or the politically active base so it's only likely to get worse. Hillary won't crash the nation and lead it to hell but I am quite sure the country will be worse off after the end of her presidency than it is right now. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
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KwarK
United States42694 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:14 biology]major wrote: No we really can't. The politicians need a time out and go the corrupt corner of the classroom and think about their mistakes for the next 4 years. First Past The Post has a lot to answer for. Out of curiousity, given the total opposition to constitutional reform across both parties and the need for crossparty consensus to achieve it, do you have any hope? Because the formation of two distasteful and largely unaccountable blocs is pretty much on the founding fathers imo. FPTP was always going to become a two party system and, as we've seen with the DNC, they get away with corrupt bullshit that wouldn't pass if it wasn't a private organization that was simultaneously a central part of American democracy. We're talking structural problems that are built by, maintained and work for the very people empowered to fix the problems and the longer they're not fixed for the less power the people will have to address them. Personally I think we're fucked forever. You? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:19 LegalLord wrote: Things would have to be a lot worse for me to consider Trump, or more generally the Republican Party, over even Hillary. But holy fuck is that a bad option. And I don't see any desire for change within the party or the politically active base so it's only likely to get worse. Hillary won't crash the nation and lead it to hell but I am quite sure the country will be worse off after the end of her presidency than it is right now. worse off under which metrics? I ask because there's a great number of possible ways to measure worse off. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
Gary Johnson and Bill Weld are both responsible, hard working, conservative governors with a proven record. Don't vote for a clown just because you'd like to see DC go up in flames | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:13 Gorsameth wrote: You making the connection to "trump voters are bin laden" is a nice leap. He means the saying 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend' is a shit reasoning that can explain a thousand and one terrible things through history. I was making a joke. I'm aware he wasn't literally saying I was like Osama Bin Laden. He took my logic to an extreme and I made fun of him for it. The fact that it has been misapplied in history to terrible results doesn't take away from the fact that when correctly applied, it's a prudent policy. The logic is sound. You're only arguing with it because I'm using it to justify my vote for Trump. Intellectual dishonesty all fucking over the place as usual | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:13 Plansix wrote: With the amount of effort by Republicans to discredit the Clinton's over the decades, you would think there would be more? Every time they run for office there is a new round of investigations by congress that at best turned up perjury or systemic problem with email in the state department. Both are bad, but I'm not going to say I wouldn't perjury myself if asked the same question Bill was. After two decades of trying to sell the same story to the US voters, you think the Republicans would have realized that people are not buying? It just seems to be part of their default plan for goverment, which is to demonize the other side rather than just present policy. They adopted the same plan with Obama once he got into office and have been riding that wave for 8 years. As someone pointed out, the Republican leader of the Senate promised to make Obama a one term president, like him receiving a public mandate from the voters didn't matter. They are the boy who cried wolf and they don't know it. I've said it before, I've said it again. The Republicans are just as guilty, if not more so, of most of the most shitty of Hillary's dealings. The reason they go after Benghazi, emails, and the Clinton Foundation over Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc., because it's something they can tie to her without being guilty by association. But either way those things do exist and many people are more than capable of acknowledging that. I see where you're coming from, but you give Hillary Clinton way too much fucking credit in general. Yes she's better than her Republican alternatives but you tend to use that fact to rationalize away many genuinely significant wrongdoings on her part. | ||
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KwarK
United States42694 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:23 PassiveAce wrote: If your car doesn't run, you can't get to work. if America doesn't run, the world can't get to work. Gary Johnson and Bill Weld are both responsible, hard working republican governors with a proven record. Don't vote for a clown just because you'd like to see DC go up in flames Also if you decide to vote for Johnson over Trump then you can just stay home on election day and tell everyone you voted Johnson. That's a win/win. There's literally no downside to staying home if you're a Johnson supporter. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:23 PassiveAce wrote: If your car doesn't run, you can't get to work. if America doesn't run, the world can't get to work. Gary Johnson and Bill Weld are both responsible, hard working, conservative governors with a proven record. Don't vote for a clown just because you'd like to see DC go up in flames If they had atleast a 5 percent chance I'd vote for them. Let's see if they can get in the debates though and do some damage. | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
I mean seriously you can argue it doesn't apply in this situation because you see Trump as the enemy not Clinton, and that's whatever I can respect that But to say the platitude is shit reasoning is just dishonest | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I really wish we had more candidates to choose from; I think there were so many better options that we never got a chance to vote for. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:21 zlefin wrote: worse off under which metrics? I ask because there's a great number of possible ways to measure worse off. More ill-thought-out military confrontations. More poorly implemented trade/globalization schemes. Less support for socially progressive movements with only a small bit of true progress through her tenure. More willingness to support even the shitty candidates that the Republican Party will put up by virtue of how weak of a candidate and leader she can be. Ineffective policy implementation in general if her history is any indication. Basically I see Hillary as a "status quo minus" president, a president who will not really push the country forward but who people who are already well off will be happy with. | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:28 zlefin wrote: I too would like to see Johnson on the debate stage. I really wish we had more candidates to choose from; I think there were so many better options that we never got a chance to vote for. The greatest blow to the Democratic party of this generation was the death of beau biden tbh | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On August 12 2016 03:28 LegalLord wrote: More ill-thought-out military confrontations. More poorly implemented trade/globalization schemes. Less support for socially progressive movements with only a small bit of true progress through her tenure. More willingness to support even the shitty candidates that the Republican Party will put up by virtue of how weak of a candidate and leader she can be. Ineffective policy implementation in general if her history is any indication. Basically I see Hillary as a "status quo minus" president, a president who will not really push the country forward but who people who are already well off will be happy with. somewhat measurable; though I'd prefer something more clearly measurable. One of the problems with stuff the gov't does imho, is that they don't establish enough good clear metrics by which to measure whether some new program was a success/failure, so they end up always claiming afterwards that it was a success/failure based on partisanship, and due to the nature of politics/lawyering they can always find some arguments for that position; since they didn't establish clear metrics at the start. also, objective measurements, while not capturing the whole story and somewhat malleable, are at least less subject to the bias/distortion of politicians. | ||
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