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On June 24 2016 10:37 farvacola wrote:
Plansix is one of the most active general forum contributors and he is entirely genuine, contrary to what xDaunt may think, so for that I think he deserves way more slack than y'all give him. However, igne's little "scenario" does actually have some value past its apparent intention to match intolerant Muslims with the ever tolerant Plansix. There comes a point where tolerance becomes so tolerant that it begins to disagree with itself, and I think Plansix sometimes goes into that territory when it comes to discussing intolerant cultures.
The problem with the entire discussion is that we have to tolerate a lot to co-exist in this world. I have to tolerate my shitty, creepy neighbor and his weird, but likely not a total asshole kid. I have to tolerate the shitty people at town meeting that always force a second vote on all spending measures because they can and hope people will just leave. And then asking 75 question about why we needed a new library and why that mattered to old people with no children. And the homophobic people that get up and speak at town meeting about how kids shouldn't be forced to learn about the gays in school. They come like once a year for reasons.
So if shitty, homophobic, fundamentalist Muslims move in, I will tolerate them. I will spend zero time denouncing them and saying they should assimilate to the ways of the west, because that will do nothing. But it doesn't mean I'm not going to wish a less asshole Muslim family moved in.
What am I going to do, demand they go back to whatever country they came from? I don't think that is going to endear me to them or change any minds.
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United States7681 Posts
FOR EXAMPLE:
for someone who talks about microaggressions and identifies himself as an "SJW" Plansix doesn't seem to think that devout muslims might be serious offenders on these fronts, by virtue of the fact that they are so devout.
IF plansix were to respond: "well muslims should be tolerant too" then that is a criticism of what some muslims view to be dogmatic precepts/values in their religion! that is a criticism!
AND if, for plansix, being "progressive on the front of religion" simply means "accepting those who are tolerant like me" then that doesn't amount to much does it!
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On June 24 2016 10:45 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:38 Aquanim wrote:
IgnE, can you summarise for me in a paragraph what the actual point you are trying to make is? Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 09:37 IgnE wrote:
To put it more plainly, you seem to have two classes of Islamic (religious) people: those who are ISIS (or whatever) and who are clearly evil/hostile/the enemy; and those who are not ISIS (i.e. most muslims) and who you just get along fine with. My point here, and with the previous line of questioning about your hypothetical daughter voluntarily taking on the burkha, is that some people here (e.g. the Right) are more or less valid in pointing out that there's a whole range of muslims in between ISIS and your American friends that you had dinner with last week, and some of those muslims are not just "trying to get along with people" but are actually pretty opposed to assimilation. You can disagree about how many muslims exist at any given point on the spectrum, but your blithe "very progressive" stance can seem akin to sticking your head in the sand. My point is: 1) Plansix says he is not in a position to criticize religion, but does so implicitly, and is not really honest with himself or us about where the boundary is 2) Plansix seems to think that because he doesn't care what Muslims think that no Muslim (excepting maybe those on the payroll of ISIS) cares what he thinks 3) Plansix doesn't seem to acknowledge how an influx of Muslims that are not tolerant, as he is, might change the culture of a place in a way that impinges upon the freedoms of more tolerant American folks 4) that at the very least, "tolerance" as a cultural value requires reciprocity to adequately function, and that ignoring the lack of reciprocity among certain groups does not address the valid concerns of those who don't ignore that lack of reciprocity
1) I said that I was poorly equipped to criticize Islam. I am not an expert and I am aware my opinion on the subject has little value.
2) I sort of care what the Muslims I know thing of me and I am sure the Muslims I know sort of care what I think.
3) I am fully aware. I'm Christian, I don't need lessons on religions being intolerant. I have first hand experience.
4) I don't agree. Tolerance is personal and based on culture. I may be willing to put up with more than other people. And the things that are deeply offensive in some cultures might not offend me in the least. But my tolerance ends with dog shit in the yard.
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On June 24 2016 10:50 IgnE wrote:
FOR EXAMPLE:
for someone who talks about microaggressions and identifies himself as an "SJW" Plansix doesn't seem to think that devout muslims might be serious offenders on these fronts, by virtue of the fact that they are so devout.
IF plansix were to respond: "well muslims should be tolerant too" then that is a criticism of what some muslims view to be dogmatic precepts/values in their religion! that is a criticism!
AND if, for plansix, being "progressive on the front of religion" simply means "accepting those who are tolerant like me" then that doesn't amount to much does it!
I have never used the word microaggressions in any discussion here. The only time I use it is ironically because I believe it is a silly, silly word.
Are you sure you're not arguing with some fictional version of me?
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United States7681 Posts
Wait, seriously? You don't think microaggressions are real?
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Well, I cannot speak for Plansix, but I can speak for myself.
1) Plansix says he is not in a position to criticize religion, but does so implicitly, and is not really honest with himself or us about where the boundary is
I most certainly have disagreements with the views of most Muslim people (or most Christians or other religions, come to that), but I don't take many actions based on those disagreements.
Are you correctly distinguishing between Plansix' personal opinions about religion, and what Plansix believes are the appropriate actions to take based on his personal opinions?
2) Plansix seems to think that because he doesn't care what Muslims think that no Muslim (excepting maybe those on the payroll of ISIS) cares what he thinks.
Speaking for myself, I not only "don't care what Muslims think" (an approximate description, but it will do), I don't care whether they care about what I think or not. If they had the power to significantly affect my life, that might change, but I don't think they do, nor will they in the forseeable future.
3) Plansix doesn't seem to acknowledge how an influx of Muslims that are not tolerant, as he is, might change the culture of a place in a way that impinges upon the freedoms of more tolerant American folks.
I don't think there is any imminent danger of that. Speaking as an Australian, whose country has seen large influxes of tight-knit groups from one culture or another pretty much every generation, immigrants assimilate over time, even if it takes a generation or two and they hold onto some of their traditions/beliefs/et cetera.
4) that at the very least, "tolerance" as a cultural value requires reciprocity to adequately function, and that ignoring the lack of reciprocity among certain groups does not address the valid concerns of those who don't ignore that lack of reciprocity
...and the way to achieve reciprocity is to be tolerant, not to demonise people who are at the present time not as tolerant.
Remember, kids, Muslims are humans too.
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On June 24 2016 10:56 IgnE wrote:
Wait, seriously? You don't think microaggressions are real?
You never get frustrated or aggravated about the little things people do without them even knowing it? Its a joke the way the terms used most of the time but that doesn't mean its not a real thing.
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Microaggressions may be real, but that doesn't stop the way people use the word from being "very, very silly".
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United States7681 Posts
Yeah of course I do. I take the concept of microaggressions very seriously. I'm surprised Plansix doesn't.
On June 24 2016 10:59 Aquanim wrote:Well, I cannot speak for Plansix, but I can speak for myself. Show nested quote +1) Plansix says he is not in a position to criticize religion, but does so implicitly, and is not really honest with himself or us about where the boundary is I most certainly have disagreements with the views of most Muslim people (or most Christians or other religions, come to that), but I don't take many actions based on those disagreements. Are you correctly distinguishing between Plansix' personal opinions about religion, and what Plansix believes are the appropriate actions to take based on his personal opinions? Show nested quote +2) Plansix seems to think that because he doesn't care what Muslims think that no Muslim (excepting maybe those on the payroll of ISIS) cares what he thinks. Speaking for myself, I not only "don't care what Muslims think" (an approximate description, but it will do), I don't care whether they care about what I think or not. If they had the power to significantly affect my life, that might change, but I don't think they do, nor will they in the forseeable future. Show nested quote +3) Plansix doesn't seem to acknowledge how an influx of Muslims that are not tolerant, as he is, might change the culture of a place in a way that impinges upon the freedoms of more tolerant American folks. I don't think there is any imminent danger of that. Speaking as an Australian, whose country has seen large influxes of tight-knit groups from one culture or another pretty much every generation, immigrants assimilate over time, even if it takes a generation or two and they hold onto some of their traditions/beliefs/et cetera. Show nested quote +4) that at the very least, "tolerance" as a cultural value requires reciprocity to adequately function, and that ignoring the lack of reciprocity among certain groups does not address the valid concerns of those who don't ignore that lack of reciprocity ...and the way to achieve reciprocity is to be tolerant, not to demonise people who are at the present time not as tolerant. Remember, kids, Muslims are humans too.
I was dealing with Plansix verbatim so I think I'm safe on that front.
There's an argument to be made, sure, that the way to achieve reciprocity is to be tolerant. But that also seems to require a dominant cultural position. Palestinians being more tolerant of Jewish settlers certainly hasn't made their situation any better, for example.
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On June 24 2016 10:56 IgnE wrote:
Wait, seriously? You don't think microaggressions are real?
I think it makes sense when used in the concept of research papers and broad discussions about cultural norms on a macro level over a long period of time. But it has zero place in discussions about specific events. Its to abstract a concept to be applied to any specific event. And its to often misused on the internet to be used in discussion. And they sound silly.
So, sort of? I also don't think privilege is a good word to use when discussing systematic advantages provided to the dominant group. I think its inflammatory and puts people on the defensive for no reason. I don't deny its existence, I just think the word has to much baggage.
This may come as a shock, but I often argue with a lot of the fabled SJW people to take it down a notch. But the key is that I pick my battles.
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I find microaggressoins overblown in most cases. While there's some valid underlying point; many who use the term seem to blow things out of proportion. my vague recollection is that while the term originated with certain proponents in academia, the actual support for its existence as an independently verifiable phenomenon with real harm is rather weak; unlike say the bystander effect.
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On June 24 2016 11:01 IgnE wrote:
There's an argument to be made, sure, that the way to achieve reciprocity is to be tolerant. But that also seems to require a dominant cultural position. Palestinians being more tolerant of Jewish settlers certainly hasn't made their situation any better, for example.
Happily, I do have exactly that.
(Palestine, Israel and the related Middle East situation is a mess. Suffice it to say that my opinions on appropriate action may not be applicable to all contexts, but that does not make them any less applicable to the present one.)
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On June 24 2016 10:59 Aquanim wrote:Show nested quote +3) Plansix doesn't seem to acknowledge how an influx of Muslims that are not tolerant, as he is, might change the culture of a place in a way that impinges upon the freedoms of more tolerant American folks. I don't think there is any imminent danger of that. Speaking as an Australian, whose country has seen large influxes of tight-knit groups from one culture or another pretty much every generation, immigrants assimilate over time, even if it takes a generation or two and they hold onto some of their traditions/beliefs/etc.
Australia is fairly unique though in that it doesn't share land borders with any nation. We've historically been able to have much greater control over the number and demographic of immigrants that have come into the country. It's a big part of why why "stop the boats" became a thing with Abbott. Being able to control numbers allows us to plan and adequately resource programs to help immigrants, and this has been a big part in avoiding the major problems you see elsewhere.
The US and EU don't have this advantage. It's a big part of why I don't think the wall is 'racist'. Having the option to control immigration allows you to make better decision and in my view is a pre requisite for successfully integrating foreign populations.
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United States7681 Posts
How come I haven't seen anything about Omar Mateen's supposed gay lover in this thread?
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On June 24 2016 12:24 IgnE wrote:
How come I haven't seen anything about Omar Mateen's supposed gay lover in this thread?
Pics or it didn't happen?
Looks like the EU is going to be short one Britain indefinitely.
Brexit has won declares BBC, Sky News and ITV - as Nigel Farage celebrates 'victory'
www.telegraph.co.uk
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In market news from the UK:
They are fucked. Seriously, its non-binding and it could be a disaster if they leave. Especially since Scotland is totally not on board with leaving. But this is why nation wide referendums are dumb and we have representative democracy.
I and know people are going to say that the majority of the people voted. But sometimes leadership is still going against that. Our big boy George Washington did that when the US people wanted to go to the aid of France during their revolution.
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good thing you make your money in USD
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I am counting by blessings. Especially since that this comes as we gear up for our own nightmare vote. Hopefully salty democrats will see this and go "Fuck, that could be us."
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future getting rekt rn
time to dump more $$$ into the stock market
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agreed, good time to cut back on some spending to take advantage of the sale
when to make the buy order would be more difficult..
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EPT
