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I don't want to live in Saudi Arabia. But I have never advocated that I thought to would be super awesome or the people would be tolerant of me. And to be honest, I don't want to live in Israel for the same reasons.
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On June 24 2016 10:10 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:01 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 09:48 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 09:40 xDaunt wrote:On June 24 2016 09:37 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 09:20 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 08:29 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 06:09 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, I disagree with the core of your argument. Liberals accept that there are systematic problems in Islam that must be address. I accept it and I am very progressive on the front of religion. But I don’t address those systematic problems aggressively or forcefully enough, which you appear to disapprove of.
As for the rest, well I just try to get along with people and accept I am woefully ill equipped to critique most of their culture. So do you think a group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you is a problem? Is it a problem of culture? Define "group of people" please. Like which group, specifically? It's self-defining. As in, "the group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you." Objection, leading question. Make your point, please. Rather than trying to lead me into a corner. Overruled. This is cross examination. This isn't a gotcha situation though. My point is that there are some people in this world who aren't just "trying to get along with people" and the question is what to do about them when they come into conflict with people like you are who are "very progressive on the front of religion." Pffff... It's not even a leading question. Damn amateurs. Leading, loaded, what's the difference? On June 24 2016 09:44 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 09:37 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 09:20 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 08:29 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 06:09 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 05:45 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, I disagree with the core of your argument. Liberals accept that there are systematic problems in Islam that must be address. I accept it and I am very progressive on the front of religion. But I don’t address those systematic problems aggressively or forcefully enough, which you appear to disapprove of.
As for the rest, well I just try to get along with people and accept I am woefully ill equipped to critique most of their culture. So do you think a group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you is a problem? Is it a problem of culture? Define "group of people" please. Like which group, specifically? It's self-defining. As in, "the group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you." Objection, leading question. Make your point, please. Rather than trying to lead me into a corner. Overruled. This is cross examination. This isn't a gotcha situation though. My point is that there are some people in this world who aren't just "trying to get along with people" and the question is what to do about them when they come into conflict with people like you are who are "very progressive on the front of religion." I've never associated with people who have vowed to kill me, so I have no experience. That comment was in response to "forced multiculturalism" as a concept in a nation of immigrants. That's kind of why I was asking you to imagine your hypothetical daughter choosing to wear a burkha and cast aspersions on your American way of life without actually "vowing to kill you." But it's clear you are uncomfortable actually thinking about the issue of "forced multiculturalism" here. The whole point is not whether you are comfortable living next to burkha-wearers, but whether you are comfortable living next to burka-wearers who are not comfortable with you. I would be against that. I don't believe that would be a healthy way to live and I don't believe women should be forced to wear burkas. If they want to wear them just because they like them, well I'm not going get on my moral high horse about it. But that isn't going to be the thing that is going to make me dislike the people who move next door that wear burkas or whatever thing you think is a sign of "bad Muslims". And I already live next to shitty people that are not comfortable with me existing. My neighbor was caught on our property trying to trim trees on our property to see into our bedroom window. At night. He has threatened to poisons peoples dogs. So if these fictional "bad Muslims that are uncomfortable with my existence" move in, its not going to be the religion that makes me dislike them. So wearing a burqa is not a healthy way to live? Why not? Is that an Islam thing? A culture separate from Islam thing? I thought a few posts ago you were saying that you weren't in a position to criticize others' religion? Why are you pretending that I am the one who thinks Muslims are "bad" when you are the one casting judgments on how they live? I am making values-neutral observations about two groups of people.
And you said this question wasn't leading? WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME IGNE? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?
And this disingenuous discussion is over.
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On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit.
It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with?
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On June 24 2016 10:13 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit. It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with?
The point is, why create a thought experiment that is likely to never happen?
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On June 24 2016 10:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:10 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:01 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 09:48 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 09:40 xDaunt wrote:On June 24 2016 09:37 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 09:20 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 08:29 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 06:09 IgnE wrote:
[quote]
So do you think a group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you is a problem? Is it a problem of culture? Define "group of people" please. Like which group, specifically? It's self-defining. As in, "the group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you." Objection, leading question. Make your point, please. Rather than trying to lead me into a corner. Overruled. This is cross examination. This isn't a gotcha situation though. My point is that there are some people in this world who aren't just "trying to get along with people" and the question is what to do about them when they come into conflict with people like you are who are "very progressive on the front of religion." Pffff... It's not even a leading question. Damn amateurs. Leading, loaded, what's the difference? On June 24 2016 09:44 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 09:37 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 09:20 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 08:29 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote:On June 24 2016 06:09 IgnE wrote:
[quote]
So do you think a group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you is a problem? Is it a problem of culture? Define "group of people" please. Like which group, specifically? It's self-defining. As in, "the group of people who openly declare that they will never get along with you." Objection, leading question. Make your point, please. Rather than trying to lead me into a corner. Overruled. This is cross examination. This isn't a gotcha situation though. My point is that there are some people in this world who aren't just "trying to get along with people" and the question is what to do about them when they come into conflict with people like you are who are "very progressive on the front of religion." I've never associated with people who have vowed to kill me, so I have no experience. That comment was in response to "forced multiculturalism" as a concept in a nation of immigrants. That's kind of why I was asking you to imagine your hypothetical daughter choosing to wear a burkha and cast aspersions on your American way of life without actually "vowing to kill you." But it's clear you are uncomfortable actually thinking about the issue of "forced multiculturalism" here. The whole point is not whether you are comfortable living next to burkha-wearers, but whether you are comfortable living next to burka-wearers who are not comfortable with you. I would be against that. I don't believe that would be a healthy way to live and I don't believe women should be forced to wear burkas. If they want to wear them just because they like them, well I'm not going get on my moral high horse about it. But that isn't going to be the thing that is going to make me dislike the people who move next door that wear burkas or whatever thing you think is a sign of "bad Muslims". And I already live next to shitty people that are not comfortable with me existing. My neighbor was caught on our property trying to trim trees on our property to see into our bedroom window. At night. He has threatened to poisons peoples dogs. So if these fictional "bad Muslims that are uncomfortable with my existence" move in, its not going to be the religion that makes me dislike them. So wearing a burqa is not a healthy way to live? Why not? Is that an Islam thing? A culture separate from Islam thing? I thought a few posts ago you were saying that you weren't in a position to criticize others' religion? Why are you pretending that I am the one who thinks Muslims are "bad" when you are the one casting judgments on how they live? I am making values-neutral observations about two groups of people. And you said this question wasn't leading? WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME IGNE? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT? And this disingenuous discussion is over.
I actually didn't say that. So I don't know why you'd think I was lying to you.
This isn't a disingenuous discussion. I'm not really sure how you reconcile "I am very progressive on religion"/"i'm not in a position to criticize religion" with "I don't think wearing a burqa is a healthy way to live." The only disingenuous one is you, putting words in my mouth (i.e. "bad Muslims"). I am trying to take you very seriously here.
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On June 24 2016 10:15 SolaR- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:13 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit. It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with? The point is, why create a thought experiment that is likely to never happen?
Yeah, like why imagine a beam of light on a ship approaching the speed of light? Einstein was an idiot.
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On June 24 2016 10:15 SolaR- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:13 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit. It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with? The point is, why create a thought experiment that is likely to never happen?
The point of the discussion was to find the thinks about Islam and the practices I don't agree with and then call me intolerant for have limits to how accepting I am. I saw this one coming a mile off. If you say you are progressive on the internet, the first thing someone will do it find something you don't agree with and say "how intolerant of you?"
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You are so perspicacious Plansix. You saw it coming a mile off. You are so right. I'm just like everyone on the internet and I just wanted to say "how intolerant of you" right after "gotcha." It raises the question of why you ever bother saying what you say, since it's rarely new, never interesting, and always leads to these algorithmic outcomes that you saw coming from miles away anyway.
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On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenario would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist Muslims. So don't dismiss me with that.
This is entirely incorrect. Igne's question is a completely fair question. It essentially is a hypothetical question calling for a philosophical answer. I would have no problem giving an answer to that question. That Plansix (or anyone else) does, is highly telling. More importantly, the scenario posed is not improbable. There are plenty of people out there who do not tolerate the existence of someone like Plansix, so the question of how those people should be dealt with as a matter of policy is entirely appropriate.
For those who haven't caught on to the meta of this thread yet, let me lay it out a little more clearly. There are two kinds of people in this thread. Those who unapologetically adhere to their beliefs and values, and those who are either hypocrites or dishonest with themselves. Plansix isn't giving clear answers to Igne's question because he clearly is uncomfortable with some of the the logical conclusions of his own positions. What he should do is be more like Trump: double down and own it. It'd make for far more interesting conversation.
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On June 24 2016 10:17 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:15 SolaR- wrote:On June 24 2016 10:13 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit. It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with? The point is, why create a thought experiment that is likely to never happen? Yeah, like why imagine a beam of light on a ship approaching the speed of light? Einstein was an idiot. ]
That has nothing to do with what i said? What Einstein did was only seen as "improbable" because the ack of knowledge or understanding of physics and how the universe worked through the base of the scientific community. He discovered something that was actually true, and enlightened us with more knowledge.
You're scenario is not the same. We know your thought experiment is not true, and will never be true.
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The true meta of the thread is Xdaunt talking down to everyone at all times and commenting on the meta of the thread, while adding very little to the discussion. His main output in critiquing other peoples hypocritical nature, while ignoring people that point out his. And saying the liberals and left alot, while chiding people for not understanding conservative values.
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On June 24 2016 10:24 SolaR- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:17 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:15 SolaR- wrote:On June 24 2016 10:13 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit. It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with? The point is, why create a thought experiment that is likely to never happen? Yeah, like why imagine a beam of light on a ship approaching the speed of light? Einstein was an idiot. ] That has nothing to do with what i said? What Einstein did was only seen as "improbable" because the ack of knowledge or understanding of physics and how the universe worked through the base of the scientific community. He discovered something that was actually true, and enlightened us with more knowledge. You're scenario is not the same. We know your thought experiment is not true, and will never be true.
Oh really? Have you seen any near-light-speed spaceships recently? I thought you would appreciate the science nod. Even if you didn't wouldn't you make the leap yourself to philosophical thought experiments? Zeno? Socrates? Plato? Aristotle? Kant? The trolley problem?
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To answer your question is the simplest way possible, if someone says its part of their religion to have their dog shit in my yard, I won't tolerate that. My progressive nature has limits and it spots right about at picking up other people's dog shit.
Edit: They leave the dog shit to be clear. Its part of the fake dog shit religion.
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On June 24 2016 10:27 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2016 10:24 SolaR- wrote:On June 24 2016 10:17 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:15 SolaR- wrote:On June 24 2016 10:13 IgnE wrote:On June 24 2016 10:09 SolaR- wrote:
To be fair to Plansix, Igne is asking a question through an improbable scenario. Plansix is not likely to face a great deal of prejudice or hatred from extremist Muslims while living in America. Muslims only account for 1% of the population, and even if extremist Muslims who hate his guts live near by, they are most likely to hate him silently. Such a small minority of people don't really have a voice to press any sort of oppression on him.
Igne's scenerio would require you to transport Plansix in the middle of Saudi Arabia and for him to continue living as he normally would.
This is accounting for your average conservative Muslim. I am not taking account for radical terrorist muslims. So don't dismiss me with that shit. It's a thought experiment, dude. What is your point? That he shouldn't have to think about things that he is unlikely to personally deal with? The point is, why create a thought experiment that is likely to never happen? Yeah, like why imagine a beam of light on a ship approaching the speed of light? Einstein was an idiot. ] That has nothing to do with what i said? What Einstein did was only seen as "improbable" because the ack of knowledge or understanding of physics and how the universe worked through the base of the scientific community. He discovered something that was actually true, and enlightened us with more knowledge. You're scenario is not the same. We know your thought experiment is not true, and will never be true. Oh really? Have you seen any near-light-speed spaceships recently? I thought you would appreciate the science nod. Even if you didn't wouldn't you make the leap yourself to philosophical thought experiments? Zeno? Socrates? Plato? Aristotle? Kant? The trolley problem?
I love thought experiments, I love philosophy and I love science. But you're purposely creating an unlikely scenario to bully Plansix into saying something that you can use against him. That is not really the discussion I would like to have, and I don't think it really answers anything.
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How to reconcile the 1st amendment religion clause with the fact that there are certain strains of wahhabism/salafism that are very clearly a problem? Thoughts?
Just the default go after the actions, not the beliefs?
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Plansix is one of the most active general forum contributors and he is entirely genuine, contrary to what xDaunt may think, so for that I think he deserves way more slack than y'all give him. However, igne's little "scenario" does actually have some value past its apparent intention to match intolerant Muslims with the ever tolerant Plansix. There comes a point where tolerance becomes so tolerant that it begins to disagree with itself, and I think Plansix sometimes goes into that territory when it comes to discussing intolerant cultures.
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IgnE, can you summarise for me in a paragraph what the actual point you are trying to make is?
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On June 24 2016 10:27 Plansix wrote:
The true meta of the thread is Xdaunt talking down to everyone at all times and commenting on the meta of the thread, while adding very little to the discussion. His main output in critiquing other peoples hypocritical nature, while ignoring people that point out his. And saying the liberals and left alot, while chiding people for not understanding conservative values.
Anybody reading can see your bob and weave and draw very easy conclusions to what kind of person you are. I'm with IgnE. You are very like the much-demeaned hardcore Trump supporters that stonewall till the cows come home. So go toss out the "IgnE Post" from all future press conferences.
I hardly think a real answer on either side will even harm you. It shows you can follow a line of thinking to one logical end and not wholly rely on counterattacks and misdirections.
(Took too long to type all of that out on my touchscreen and he responded, oh my.)
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On June 24 2016 10:37 zlefin wrote:
How to reconcile the 1st amendment religion clause with the fact that there are certain strains of wahhabism/salafism that are very clearly a problem? Thoughts?
Just the default go after the actions, not the beliefs?
In terms of legal approach, definitely go after actions and not beliefs, but more importantly, I think there's a lot more we can do to combat militant islam that doesn't involve domestic law. To be frank, I think recklessly militaristic foreign policy encourages whahhabism far more than the tenets of the offshoot itself do.
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On June 24 2016 10:38 Aquanim wrote:
IgnE, can you summarise for me in a paragraph what the actual point you are trying to make is?
On June 24 2016 09:37 IgnE wrote:
To put it more plainly, you seem to have two classes of Islamic (religious) people: those who are ISIS (or whatever) and who are clearly evil/hostile/the enemy; and those who are not ISIS (i.e. most muslims) and who you just get along fine with. My point here, and with the previous line of questioning about your hypothetical daughter voluntarily taking on the burkha, is that some people here (e.g. the Right) are more or less valid in pointing out that there's a whole range of muslims in between ISIS and your American friends that you had dinner with last week, and some of those muslims are not just "trying to get along with people" but are actually pretty opposed to assimilation. You can disagree about how many muslims exist at any given point on the spectrum, but your blithe "very progressive" stance can seem akin to sticking your head in the sand.
My point is:
1) Plansix says he is not in a position to criticize religion, but does so implicitly, and is not really honest with himself or us about where the boundary is
2) Plansix seems to think that because he doesn't care what Muslims think that no Muslim (excepting maybe those on the payroll of ISIS) cares what he thinks
3) Plansix doesn't seem to acknowledge how an influx of Muslims that are not tolerant, as he is, might change the culture of a place in a way that impinges upon the freedoms of more tolerant American folks
4) that at the very least, "tolerance" as a cultural value requires reciprocity to adequately function, and that ignoring the lack of reciprocity among certain groups does not address the valid concerns of those who don't ignore that lack of reciprocity
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EPT
