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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
June 10 2016 20:26 GMT
#80501
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?
Question.?
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46390 Posts
June 10 2016 20:26 GMT
#80502
On June 11 2016 02:42 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
I'm really sorry for this lol

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Yeah he stole that from Jimmy Fallon lol
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
June 10 2016 20:28 GMT
#80503
Clinton leads Trump by 11 points in White House race: Reuters/Ipsos poll

Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by 11 points in the U.S. presidential race, showing little change after she became the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee this week, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Friday.

The online poll, conducted from Monday to Friday, shows 46 percent of likely voters support Clinton while 34.8 percent back Trump. Another 19.2 percent support neither candidate. Their parties hold conventions in July ahead of a Nov. 8 election.

Clinton's lead was nearly the same a week ago, before she had amassed enough convention delegates to win the nomination and before Trump drew criticism from leaders of both parties for questioning the impartiality of a Mexican-American judge.

[...]

www.reuters.com

so no change there yet. Would have expected the lead to grow a bit tbh but that might still come a bit later
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46390 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 20:46:43
June 10 2016 20:28 GMT
#80504
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?


What are his current positions? I have so much trouble keeping track of which week it is, and with his foot in his mouth every other day I have trouble hearing what he says.

I know that his view on terrorism is to purposely kill innocent people and relatives. Sounds really nice. I guess you don't have to worry about collateral damage when you're actually aiming for everyone, terrorist or not!
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
June 10 2016 20:30 GMT
#80505
On June 11 2016 05:28 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +
Clinton leads Trump by 11 points in White House race: Reuters/Ipsos poll

Hillary Clinton leads Donald Trump by 11 points in the U.S. presidential race, showing little change after she became the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee this week, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Friday.

The online poll, conducted from Monday to Friday, shows 46 percent of likely voters support Clinton while 34.8 percent back Trump. Another 19.2 percent support neither candidate. Their parties hold conventions in July ahead of a Nov. 8 election.

Clinton's lead was nearly the same a week ago, before she had amassed enough convention delegates to win the nomination and before Trump drew criticism from leaders of both parties for questioning the impartiality of a Mexican-American judge.

[...]

www.reuters.com

so no change there yet. Would have expected the lead to grow a bit tbh but that might still come a bit later


Everything happened just yesterday. I'd give it a month.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22566 Posts
June 10 2016 20:34 GMT
#80506
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

So Trump, who is being shown to lie constantly is trustworthy to you?

Also you believe the correct way to fight terrorists is to murder their families?
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44284 Posts
June 10 2016 20:37 GMT
#80507
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

Obviously we have different perspectives but can you understand that for someone who is horrified by the things Trump says they're not afraid that Trump can't be trusted to do them but rather that he can. From that perspective even if Hillary was also saying that she would do the same awful things that Trump promises you'd still vote Hillary in the hope that she probably wouldn't follow through. Being trusted to do something that his opponents really oppose is not a positive trait.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 10 2016 21:00 GMT
#80508
The Department of Transportation has authorized six U.S. airlines to schedule round-trip flights from the U.S to Cuba — starting as early as this fall.

The flights are possible thanks to an agreement between the U.S. and Cuba, announced in December, which allows up to 110 daily flights from U.S. cities to Cuban cities. The return of scheduled flights between the countries is a step in the ongoing thawing of relations; for decades, only charter flights were allowed to travel between the two nations.

The approved passenger flights announced Friday do not include any flights to Havana. Instead, they are flights to nine other cities, with up to 10 flights per city per day.

Some airlines will be authorized to fly to Havana "sometime this summer," the DOT says, with up to 20 flights per day permitted.

"Last year, President Obama announced that it was time to 'begin a new journey' with the Cuban people," U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx said in a statement. "Today, we are delivering on his promise by re-launching scheduled air service to Cuba after more than half a century."

The availability of scheduled flights does not meant that tourist travel to Cuba is permitted, the DOT notes. Travelers must still prove their travel falls within an approved category, like journalistic activities, religious work, humanitarian projects or education.

American, Frontier, JetBlue, Silver Airways, Southwest, and Sun Country were each approved for flights by DOT. (Eastern Airlines, which currently offers only charter flights, was not approved.)

Flights will depart from Miami, Chicago, Ft. Lauderdale, Philadelphia, and Minneapolis. The destinations in Cuba are Camagüey, Cayo Coco, Cayo Largo del Sur, Cienfuegos, Holguin, Manzanillo, Santa Clara, Santiago de Cuba and Matanzas.

The DOT has published a full rundown of which routes have been approved.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8183 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:13:22
June 10 2016 21:13 GMT
#80509
On June 11 2016 03:52 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 03:34 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On June 11 2016 03:26 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 11 2016 03:22 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On June 11 2016 03:15 Mohdoo wrote:
Europeans are better informed on American politics than Americans

Look at it from the good side, everyone is taking interest in what happens in your country (on a slightly more cynical note, maybe people around the globe are just shit scared of having that orange clown anywhere near the nuclear button.)


Yea because the 'she's often forgetful' crook voting for NAFTA and the Iraq war and the Libyan crisis (leading to the rise of ISIL) is better judgment and safer around nuclear codes.

If you want to just flame the candidate you don't support like it's an obvious choice this works both ways.

+ Show Spoiler +

You really think Trump has as good a judgment as Hillary on foreign politics? We talk of a guy who boast about carpet bombing the middle east, torturing prisoners and killing civilian if they are on the family of a bad guy.

I don't like Clinton hawkish positions, just as I don't like Obama's drone war and the way he has dealt with pretty much everything on foreign affairs. But that's America, and that won't change. There is a continuity in American foreign policies since the Vietnam war (again, with the exception of Bush, for the worst, he was a special case). Reagan, Bush father, Clinton, Obama, all have basically be on the same line when it comes to foreign affairs, and Hillary will carry on.

I don't like it, it really sucks. But Clinton is not a lunatic, and yeah, I don't mind her having the nuclear button close because she won't ever press it. I really do mind in the case of The Donald because frankly, I'm not that sure. I wouldn't have liked to have him in office when 9/11 happened, keeping in mind we had the worst president in over a century.

And I repeat myself: back up with facts that Hillary is a crook, thanks. Unless you want to transform that debate into schoolboy taunts, as Trump is currently doing.

This whole thing boils down to whether you are satisfied with current state of countries, globalism, capitalism, mega corporations and where all that heads to, or you want change. I think we live in an era where capitalism is under a big microscope of the general population, where people feel it has reached an end of the spectrum where it serves capital and not the people, and a lot of people want it toned down.

Hillary represents "the establishment" and a continuation of these policies, where Trump on the other hand represents an outsider and a change in peoples eyes, for better or for worse.

People have again and again had this discourse, and voted for someone who was promising a quick radical change despite being obviously a horrendous person with despicable ideas.

My intention is NOT to pull a Godwin, but your reasoning is exactly what Germans were saying when they brought Hitler to power. It's not to say it's the same, but the reasoning "the system is bad, let's have some change" and vote for a lunatic hasn't had a very good record last century.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:17:54
June 10 2016 21:13 GMT
#80510
On June 11 2016 01:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 21:33 oneofthem wrote:
suspicion of hillary on the left is largely based on indiscriminate suspicion of the corporate world and also a surface level understanding of elite motivation and beliefs. basically, corporations are evil and those who have any contact with them must also be minions. it is based on a simple class conflict model of the world, in which the rich people are engaged in conspiracy, rather than being simply natural products of a legal and economic system etc.


It's actually not a conspiracy driven view. If you watch the Young Turks for more than two minutes (and no matter what you think of them, I'm sure we'll agree they're an important vector of this world view), they will insist on a regular and consistent basis that it's not a conspiracy, that there is no smoke-filled room where evil rich people decide the destiny of the rest of us. The perception that you disagree with is that the general system of money in politics, as you have it, makes it so that what very rich people think is much more important than what random people think, and that this was done by design. Not because rich people are evil and want you ill, but because they have they have their own best interest at heart, obviously, and the system has been modified (or perverted) in a way that gives them the ability to use their wealth to their advantage much more than they should be able to in a democracy.

Where the "conspiracy" is, I suppose, is in the idea that it's not standard for a politician that is very successful in that system, got a lot of power and money thanks to that system, to also want to change it.

Beyond their comments on corruption at the structural level, TYT have repeatedly singled out Clinton as an example of a particularly corrupt politician, going as far as mentioning individual positions of hers that they criticized as the result of the influence of money on her. Of course, they never had any shred of evidence to back up their accusations.

On June 11 2016 01:58 pmh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 01:30 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 10 2016 21:33 oneofthem wrote:
suspicion of hillary on the left is largely based on indiscriminate suspicion of the corporate world and also a surface level understanding of elite motivation and beliefs. basically, corporations are evil and those who have any contact with them must also be minions. it is based on a simple class conflict model of the world, in which the rich people are engaged in conspiracy, rather than being simply natural products of a legal and economic system etc.


It's actually not a conspiracy driven view. If you watch the Young Turks for more than two minutes (and no matter what you think of them, I'm sure we'll agree they're an important vector of this world view), they will insist on a regular and consistent basis that it's not a conspiracy, that there is no smoke-filled room where evil rich people decide the destiny of the rest of us. The perception that you disagree with is that the general system of money in politics, as you have it, makes it so that what very rich people think is much more important than what random people think, and that this was done by design. Not because rich people are evil and want you ill, but because they have they have their own best interest at heart, obviously, and the system has been modified (or perverted) in a way that gives them the ability to use their wealth to their advantage much more than they should be able to in a democracy.

Where the "conspiracy" is, I suppose, is in the idea that it's not standard for a politician that is very successful in that system, got a lot of power and money thanks to that system, to also want to change it.

They don't want to hear this so don't expect a response.
American debating is hilarious. If you have a bad point they make a lengthy and nicely written post with rebutals and such. Pretending to be all about the debate.
And when you have a good point where they don't have a good response at hand they will simply ignore you.
Its so childish but that's how it works on this forum lol.

Spare us your holier-than-thou comments on how this forum "works", especially considering each time I replied to your comments arguing that Clinton should pick Sanders as VP you ignored my responses and stopped posting.

On June 11 2016 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
Also she's a liar (so is Trump). Again not related to some conspiracy that Hillary supporters like to blame, but because she lies. Bosnia for example, people can dismiss it as not a big deal if they want, but it shows she's a liar and willing to completely fabricate a story to make herself appear better than she is. On top of that, she never owns it when she gets caught. She's always "misspeaking", no one who had any clue would of "misspoke" like she did about Nancy Reagan either, that people buy that excuse to me is no better than people who buy Trump's snake oil.

Another false equivocation, just as dishonest as ever. Trump is a pathological liar, while Clinton is as honest as the norm on the Democratic side, Sanders included. And it's funny that you'd accuse her of never owning up to anything, since it's precisely Clinton who has apologized for her mistakes, while I have yet to see Sanders own up to anything, with the exception of the data breach his campaign engaged in, an episode about which his campaign still partially lied about and which they sought to use for fundraising by playing the victim card and suing the DNC.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
June 10 2016 21:17 GMT
#80511
Iranian leaders have reacted with fury to reports that newly declassified US diplomatic cables revealed extensive contacts between Ayatollah Khomeini and the Carter administration just weeks ahead of Iran’s Islamic revolution.

It was previously known that Ruhollah Khomeini, the charismatic leader of the Iranian revolution, had exchanged some messages with the US through an intermediary while living in exile in Paris. But new documents seen by the BBC’s Persian service show he went to a great lengths to ensure the Americans would not jeopardise his plans to return to Iran – and even personally wrote to US officials.

The BBC’s reporting suggests that the Carter administration took heed of Khomeini’s pledges, and in effect paved the way for his return by holding the Iranian army back from launching a military coup.

The BBC Persian service obtained a draft message Washington had prepared as a response to Khomeini, which welcomed the ayatollah’s direct communications, but was never sent.

The corporation also published a previously released but unnoticed declassified 1980 CIA analysis titled Islam in Iran, which shows Khomeini’s initial attempts to reach out to the US dated back to 1963, 16 years before the revolution.

The BBC’s reports have created a huge row in Iran: if true they would undermine the myth that Khomenei staunchly resisted any direct links with the US, which remained taboo for three decades until the recent nuclear negotiations.

Earlier this month, Khomeini’s successor, supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, denied the report, saying it was based on “fabricated” documents.

Other Iranian politicians have also questioned the BBC’s revelations, including Ebrahim Yazdi, Khomeini’s spokesman and adviser at the time of the revolution, and Saeed Hajjarian, a reformist figure.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:24:00
June 10 2016 21:23 GMT
#80512
Merkley endorses Clinton

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8183 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:27:58
June 10 2016 21:26 GMT
#80513
On June 11 2016 06:13 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 01:30 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 10 2016 21:33 oneofthem wrote:
suspicion of hillary on the left is largely based on indiscriminate suspicion of the corporate world and also a surface level understanding of elite motivation and beliefs. basically, corporations are evil and those who have any contact with them must also be minions. it is based on a simple class conflict model of the world, in which the rich people are engaged in conspiracy, rather than being simply natural products of a legal and economic system etc.


It's actually not a conspiracy driven view. If you watch the Young Turks for more than two minutes (and no matter what you think of them, I'm sure we'll agree they're an important vector of this world view), they will insist on a regular and consistent basis that it's not a conspiracy, that there is no smoke-filled room where evil rich people decide the destiny of the rest of us. The perception that you disagree with is that the general system of money in politics, as you have it, makes it so that what very rich people think is much more important than what random people think, and that this was done by design. Not because rich people are evil and want you ill, but because they have they have their own best interest at heart, obviously, and the system has been modified (or perverted) in a way that gives them the ability to use their wealth to their advantage much more than they should be able to in a democracy.

Where the "conspiracy" is, I suppose, is in the idea that it's not standard for a politician that is very successful in that system, got a lot of power and money thanks to that system, to also want to change it.

Beyond their comments on corruption at the structural level, TYT have repeatedly singled out Clinton as an example of a particularly corrupt politician, going as far as mentioning individual positions of hers that they criticized as the result of the influence of money on her. Of course, they never had any shred of evidence to back up their accusations.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 01:58 pmh wrote:
On June 11 2016 01:30 Nebuchad wrote:
On June 10 2016 21:33 oneofthem wrote:
suspicion of hillary on the left is largely based on indiscriminate suspicion of the corporate world and also a surface level understanding of elite motivation and beliefs. basically, corporations are evil and those who have any contact with them must also be minions. it is based on a simple class conflict model of the world, in which the rich people are engaged in conspiracy, rather than being simply natural products of a legal and economic system etc.


It's actually not a conspiracy driven view. If you watch the Young Turks for more than two minutes (and no matter what you think of them, I'm sure we'll agree they're an important vector of this world view), they will insist on a regular and consistent basis that it's not a conspiracy, that there is no smoke-filled room where evil rich people decide the destiny of the rest of us. The perception that you disagree with is that the general system of money in politics, as you have it, makes it so that what very rich people think is much more important than what random people think, and that this was done by design. Not because rich people are evil and want you ill, but because they have they have their own best interest at heart, obviously, and the system has been modified (or perverted) in a way that gives them the ability to use their wealth to their advantage much more than they should be able to in a democracy.

Where the "conspiracy" is, I suppose, is in the idea that it's not standard for a politician that is very successful in that system, got a lot of power and money thanks to that system, to also want to change it.

They don't want to hear this so don't expect a response.
American debating is hilarious. If you have a bad point they make a lengthy and nicely written post with rebutals and such. Pretending to be all about the debate.
And when you have a good point where they don't have a good response at hand they will simply ignore you.
Its so childish but that's how it works on this forum lol.

Spare us your holier-than-thou comments on how this forum "works", especially considering each time I replied to your comments arguing that Clinton should pick Sanders as VP you ignored my responses and stopped posting.

Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 04:24 GreenHorizons wrote:
Also she's a liar (so is Trump). Again not related to some conspiracy that Hillary supporters like to blame, but because she lies. Bosnia for example, people can dismiss it as not a big deal if they want, but it shows she's a liar and willing to completely fabricate a story to make herself appear better than she is. On top of that, she never owns it when she gets caught. She's always "misspeaking", no one who had any clue would of "misspoke" like she did about Nancy Reagan either, that people buy that excuse to me is no better than people who buy Trump's snake oil.

Another false equivocation, just as dishonest as ever. Trump is a pathological liar, while Clinton is as honest as the norm on the Democratic side, Sanders included. And it's funny that you'd accuse her of never owning up to anything, since it's precisely Clinton who has apologized for her mistakes, while I have yet to see Sanders own up to anything, with the exception of the data breach his campaign engaged in, an episode about which his campaign still partially lied about and which they sought to use for fundraising by playing the victim card and suing the DNC.

I used to be a radical left wing salon activist myself (with firm marxist beliefs), and I always have sympathy for the revolutionary left, but I have to say GH is making me hate those people every day a little more.

Basically recycling Fox News propaganda and ready to give the key of the White House to someone who will be the worst disaster in recent political history because he is bitter and can't compromise one bit.

The country is somewhere, some people want it further on the right, some further on the left. Bernie and Hillary have a disagreement of method, but they want the USA to go the same direction. Leftists and liberals should discuss, disagree and ultimately work together.

But hey, I haven't had my revolution, so let's burn the shit out of that place.

And if he really believe that Clinton is as bad for America as Trump, he had nothing to do in Bernie's troops in the first place.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 10 2016 21:26 GMT
#80514
On June 11 2016 05:34 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

So Trump, who is being shown to lie constantly is trustworthy to you?

Also you believe the correct way to fight terrorists is to murder their families?

It’s weird that people advocate that when every revenge story in the history tells us that killing families just makes violent, vengeful people. And Batman.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8183 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:34:42
June 10 2016 21:29 GMT
#80515
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

And you think banning all muslims from entering the country is a good idea? And that building a 24 billion dollar wall (plus maintenance, mind you) is a serious proposition, while most illegal immigrant enter the country legally? Like, seriously?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
June 10 2016 21:37 GMT
#80516
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

Don't you just love the contortions that Hillary supporters have to go through to whitewash her past and explain away her duplicitous nature?

Also, don't underestimate the significance of the bolded part above. Those are the key Trump issues. He has scored a ton of points with them throughout his campaign, and he's going to continue to score points with them against Hillary.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:46:58
June 10 2016 21:42 GMT
#80517
uh i didn't see that reply by nebuchad.

i'll respond here,


On June 11 2016 01:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 21:33 oneofthem wrote:
suspicion of hillary on the left is largely based on indiscriminate suspicion of the corporate world and also a surface level understanding of elite motivation and beliefs. basically, corporations are evil and those who have any contact with them must also be minions. it is based on a simple class conflict model of the world, in which the rich people are engaged in conspiracy, rather than being simply natural products of a legal and economic system etc.


It's actually not a conspiracy driven view. If you watch the Young Turks for more than two minutes (and no matter what you think of them, I'm sure we'll agree they're an important vector of this world view), they will insist on a regular and consistent basis that it's not a conspiracy, that there is no smoke-filled room where evil rich people decide the destiny of the rest of us. The perception that you disagree with is that the general system of money in politics, as you have it, makes it so that what very rich people think is much more important than what random people think, and that this was done by design. Not because rich people are evil and want you ill, but because they have they have their own best interest at heart, obviously, and the system has been modified (or perverted) in a way that gives them the ability to use their wealth to their advantage much more than they should be able to in a democracy.

Where the "conspiracy" is, I suppose, is in the idea that it's not standard for a politician that is very successful in that system, got a lot of power and money thanks to that system, to also want to change it.
the problem as i identified it is not that the left sees rich people as intentionally evil but that some see the rich as evil by virtue of being rich or engaged in a certain industry.

you've not challenged this characterization much. some rich people, even in finance related industry, are long time liberals, do not see their industry as necessarily bad but do acknowledge reform. (and finance is not necessarily bad. us having a deep financial market means it's a good idea to found new enterprises in the u.s. and historically contributed to capital accumulation and growth)

soros, james simons, buffett etc do see inequality and systemic malfunctioning of finance as a problem when it comes to serving the real economy. it's simply dishonest to point to 'hedge funds' or 'finance' contribute to clinton as evidence of corruption. look at the actual policies and agendas.

i always frame my criticism of the left along lines of, gee, you wish well, but please recognize the importance of grounding protest in policy and facts, or you are doing your movement a great disservice.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 10 2016 21:46 GMT
#80518
presidency is a team game. you need to look at the policy groups to get a sense of what's to come.

i'd like to see more leftwing folks counterbalancing the robert rubins, but a problem is that there are so few of these people. i don't think the clinton clique should be entirely trusted. there is too little scrutiny on various business endeavors by the donors. the NGO world has a lower level of tolerance for branding than what government should accept.

i'd like to see people like michael mullen, sarah chayes in key positions on her foreign policy team. have transparency and accountability prominently on the agenda etc. it's not like she hasn't engaged with these issues, just need to show more commitment.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 10 2016 21:47 GMT
#80519
On June 11 2016 06:37 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

Don't you just love the contortions that Hillary supporters have to go through to whitewash her past and explain away her duplicitous nature?

Also, don't underestimate the significance of the bolded part above. Those are the key Trump issues. He has scored a ton of points with them throughout his campaign, and he's going to continue to score points with them against Hillary.

but ti's no match for the contortions used by the trump supporters!
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8183 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-10 21:50:44
June 10 2016 21:47 GMT
#80520
On June 11 2016 06:37 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2016 05:26 biology]major wrote:
Well I'm not just voting for trump because of his personality or character lol, I agree with his positions on immigration, trade and terrorism. My point is I would outright reject a candidate who I feel is not trust worthy, doesn't matter what they say why should I believe them?

Don't you just love the contortions that Hillary supporters have to go through to whitewash her past and explain away her duplicitous nature?

Also, don't underestimate the significance of the bolded part above. Those are the key Trump issues. He has scored a ton of points with them throughout his campaign, and he's going to continue to score points with them against Hillary.

I don't think so. He has won a party gone batshit crazy with batshit crazy propositions. The base of the GOP is so radicalized and so far on the right that it is likely to be seduced by the idea of torturing people, killing civilians, banning muslims, bullying foreign countries and building a wall that won't be built because it makes 0 sense.

The bad news for you guys is that the average american is not as biggoted and ignorant as the base of your party. Those propositions that got him elected by the party simply horrify most people, because they are horrifying.

And I won't start to talk about the part where he insulted every minorities with one racist attack after another. That works great to get the votes of a party of angry white men, much less to get elected to the highest office of such a diverse country.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
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