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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15714 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 15:10:33
May 26 2016 15:03 GMT
#77701
People hugely overestimate how politically involved the average american is. I have met my fair share of people who really don't know much about either candidate except for the headlines. Trump wants to deport Mexicans, Bernie wants to make college free, and Clinton is your business as usual politician. These are the views that most people have walked out of the primary election with.

And the fact remains, a GOP primary is wildly different from a general election. For one, quoting the bible is not how you win a general election. This is one of the reason I see Trump as the GOP's last hope to be relevant. Bernie knows how to lay into people and he knows how to make things stick. I think that not only would Bernie be able to actually damage Trump (in the eyes of the general electorate), but he also sets the stage for Clinton's attacks. Clinton is able to just piggy back on everything Bernie says in a debate. By Clinton continuing Bernie's attack, she kinda slides herself into his persona/image to certain people.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 26 2016 15:50 GMT
#77702
I don't see how this debate is anything other than bad news for Hillary. This whole episode concerning the genesis of the debate reinforces the narrative that she's weak, reinforces Trump's message of strength, and gives Bernie an opportunity to play up his message of being the one democrat who can take on Trump. The only thing that's worse for Hillary is that, at the actual debate, she is going to be drawing ample fire from both Trump and Bernie without a platform to respond. The only way that this backfires on Trump is if Bernie trounces him at the debate, which is incredibly unlikely. Even assuming that Bernie scores more points on the issues, Trump's performance at the debates has never been about command of the issues. It has always been about presence. I highly doubt that Bernie will do any better at undercutting Trump's presence than any of the republican candidates did.

Anyway, Trump is definitely large and in charge during this election cycle. He has turned traditional political strategy on its head and is reaping the benefits.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
May 26 2016 16:02 GMT
#77703
Apparently some sources are saying Trump has already backed out of the debate so it may not happen. If true I guess he's angered some Bernie fans or disenfranchised them some more.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5672 Posts
May 26 2016 16:12 GMT
#77704
Even if Bernie crushes him at a debate, it would be hard for Trump to "lose" when the condition of the debate is that they get paid and he sends the money to charity (probably veterans).
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 16:53:08
May 26 2016 16:51 GMT
#77705
On May 26 2016 22:44 farvacola wrote:
Remember that debates are less about the people who are already a fan of a particular candidate and more about those who are undecided. In that sense, Bernie does have the ability to do some good work come debate time.


I mean, the main people Clinton needs to win over are liberals that don't call themselves democrats (i.e. Sanders supporters). If she does that she can pick up another ~2-3% on Trump. I don't see how this debate will/would do much to push them into her arms-unless Sanders really digs into Trump as everything wrong with America like he used to pay lip service to at debates.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
May 26 2016 17:24 GMT
#77706
The e-mails that just won't go away.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44601 Posts
May 26 2016 17:25 GMT
#77707
On May 27 2016 01:02 SK.Testie wrote:
Apparently some sources are saying Trump has already backed out of the debate so it may not happen. If true I guess he's angered some Bernie fans or disenfranchised them some more.


While Trump obviously wants to minimize the amount of time that he's forced to talk about politics that he's unfamiliar with, I feel like Trump is missing a really easy opportunity to gain traction with anti-establishment pro-Bernie voters against Hillary.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23295 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 17:42:32
May 26 2016 17:34 GMT
#77708
On May 27 2016 00:50 xDaunt wrote:
I don't see how this debate is anything other than bad news for Hillary. This whole episode concerning the genesis of the debate reinforces the narrative that she's weak, reinforces Trump's message of strength, and gives Bernie an opportunity to play up his message of being the one democrat who can take on Trump. The only thing that's worse for Hillary is that, at the actual debate, she is going to be drawing ample fire from both Trump and Bernie without a platform to respond. The only way that this backfires on Trump is if Bernie trounces him at the debate, which is incredibly unlikely. Even assuming that Bernie scores more points on the issues, Trump's performance at the debates has never been about command of the issues. It has always been about presence. I highly doubt that Bernie will do any better at undercutting Trump's presence than any of the republican candidates did.

Anyway, Trump is definitely large and in charge during this election cycle. He has turned traditional political strategy on its head and is reaping the benefits.


Of course it's bad news for Hillary, watching her supporters try to spin this against Bernie is pretty hilarious and looks desperate. Only Hillary supporters think this debate is a bad idea. Of course this is all Hillary's doing anyway, by being too cowardly to keep her word and debate Bernie herself.

As for the emails thing, it's one of those "the cover up is worse than the crime" She lied a LOT about it. Maybe not a big deal, but when most of America already doesn't trust you...

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
May 26 2016 17:49 GMT
#77709
Opinions regarding this Sanders-Trump debate seem to be suffering from endemic question begging; asserting the impact of anything in this black swan of an election season in unequivocal language has proven to be the stuff of the very political pundits that we've all decided are terrible, and yet, every time some new development comes along, we'll have posters saying things like, "Oh, this will certainly lead to [insert particular outcome]" without a single bit of substance to back it up.

Granted, I've even done this myself, but my lord, the furor surrounding this what will likely end up a relatively inconsequential debate is just too much

"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 26 2016 17:56 GMT
#77710
Even the WashPo editorial board is hammering Hillary over the email thing now. You have to really fuck up as a democrat to draw that kind of fire.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28689 Posts
May 26 2016 18:04 GMT
#77711
On May 26 2016 21:30 SolaR- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2016 21:24 TheTenthDoc wrote:
What's really baffling here is why Sanders is doing this. It does nothing but help Trump-Sanders can't be nominated bar a seismic political event, which this is not. He spent months vilifying Trump and at Democratic debates repeated pointedly that everyone on the stage was a better nominee than anyone the Republicans had to offer. Has he really gone from "I don't care about her damn emails" to "gotta sink Clinton no matter what" like so many of his supporters?

Chalk up more lying (or at best just crippling naivete) to Sanders I guess alongside the bizarre superdelegate 180.


I think Sanders sees Hillary as a bigger threat than Trump even though he might not say publicly. She represents everything that he despises and is against. Hillary is Wall Street.


I am sorry, but this thought is not grounded in reality. There is absolutely no way Sanders considers Hillary a bigger threat than Trump. Him and her largely share political vision (not entirely mind you), but differ greatly in way of achieving their goals. Sanders and Trump though? They might coincidentally (coincidentally because they base their decisions on entirely different premises but might still end up with agreeing occasionally) share some common ground in terms of anti-trade and campaign finance regulation, but their political/societal visions are entirely different. Sanders essentially wants to Scandinavify the US (basically adopting our policies in the areas where we outperform the US). As a Scandinavian, I can tell you that there's not a single thing Trump has suggested so far that would accomplish that goal - or even move towards that goal.

The entire 'make america great again' message is anti-sanders by nature. Sanders is a global citizen first, American second - even more so than Obama is.
Moderator
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28689 Posts
May 26 2016 18:09 GMT
#77712
On May 27 2016 02:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2016 01:02 SK.Testie wrote:
Apparently some sources are saying Trump has already backed out of the debate so it may not happen. If true I guess he's angered some Bernie fans or disenfranchised them some more.


While Trump obviously wants to minimize the amount of time that he's forced to talk about politics that he's unfamiliar with, I feel like Trump is missing a really easy opportunity to gain traction with anti-establishment pro-Bernie voters against Hillary.


I honestly think that agreeing to this debate would be a massive mistake from Trump if it is done with the hope of winning over sanders voters. There are other reasons why it would not be stupid by him (showcasing how different he is from Hillary, showcasing Hillary's flaws in a way that makes sanders voters less likely to vote for her), but there is no way a Sanders vs Trump debate would leave people thinking the two candidates share significant common ground. Sanders is way, way, way more opposed to a Trump presidency than a Clinton presidency, that really isn't up for debate, and in a debate, I am confident he would repeatedly insist on being allowed to make that piece of information clear to everyone.
Moderator
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
May 26 2016 18:16 GMT
#77713
On May 27 2016 03:04 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2016 21:30 SolaR- wrote:
On May 26 2016 21:24 TheTenthDoc wrote:
What's really baffling here is why Sanders is doing this. It does nothing but help Trump-Sanders can't be nominated bar a seismic political event, which this is not. He spent months vilifying Trump and at Democratic debates repeated pointedly that everyone on the stage was a better nominee than anyone the Republicans had to offer. Has he really gone from "I don't care about her damn emails" to "gotta sink Clinton no matter what" like so many of his supporters?

Chalk up more lying (or at best just crippling naivete) to Sanders I guess alongside the bizarre superdelegate 180.


I think Sanders sees Hillary as a bigger threat than Trump even though he might not say publicly. She represents everything that he despises and is against. Hillary is Wall Street.


I am sorry, but this thought is not grounded in reality. There is absolutely no way Sanders considers Hillary a bigger threat than Trump. Him and her largely share political vision (not entirely mind you), but differ greatly in way of achieving their goals. Sanders and Trump though? They might coincidentally (coincidentally because they base their decisions on entirely different premises but might still end up with agreeing occasionally) share some common ground in terms of anti-trade and campaign finance regulation, but their political/societal visions are entirely different. Sanders essentially wants to Scandinavify the US (basically adopting our policies in the areas where we outperform the US). As a Scandinavian, I can tell you that there's not a single thing Trump has suggested so far that would accomplish that goal - or even move towards that goal.

The entire 'make america great again' message is anti-sanders by nature. Sanders is a global citizen first, American second - even more so than Obama is.


I didn't say trump and sanders had no differences which they obviously do. However, a big part of what bernie is campaigning against is political corruption and the corruption of wall street and the big banks. Hillary represents all those things.

And i admit, my comment was bit of a stretch and more like wishful thinking. But i do not think it is outside the realm of possibility.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28689 Posts
May 26 2016 18:21 GMT
#77714
The biggest issue for Sanders is climate change. A whole lot of his policies have their foundation in curtailing consumption - this is fairly common among european leftists - because excess consumption is largely considered the driving force of accelerated climate change.

Meanwhile, Trump is at best pretending that he's not really a believer. And he most certainly does not want to curtail consumption.
Moderator
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15714 Posts
May 26 2016 18:31 GMT
#77715
I think Sanders' single goal is to rip off as many bandaids as possible. He trying to yank America into a civilized society by any means necessary. It doesn't matter who he debates, he just needs to debate someone. His entire goal is as much airtime and attention as possible to spread his message as well as possible. I think he'll lay into Trump big time, if they do debate.
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
May 26 2016 18:32 GMT
#77716
Its not that complicated to see what would happen if Trump and Bernie debated.

IF they attack each other, Bernie supporters are more likely to shift their vote to Hilary in the General.
IF they attack Hilary, Hilary points to Bernie as being no different than Trump and galvanizes actual liberals to her side.
IF they do neither, then they look silly setting up a big event where they don't actually have a debate.

In none of those does Hilary look bad.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23295 Posts
May 26 2016 18:32 GMT
#77717
Trump says he wants $10 million for charity to debate. The network should pay off most of that but I don't think Bernie would have much trouble scaring up a few million to make it happen.

Trump knows his optics. Hillary will not only be avoiding a debate she promised to be at, but she'll be ducking raising money for women's health issues.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 26 2016 18:33 GMT
#77718
On May 27 2016 02:49 farvacola wrote:
Opinions regarding this Sanders-Trump debate seem to be suffering from endemic question begging; asserting the impact of anything in this black swan of an election season in unequivocal language has proven to be the stuff of the very political pundits that we've all decided are terrible, and yet, every time some new development comes along, we'll have posters saying things like, "Oh, this will certainly lead to [insert particular outcome]" without a single bit of substance to back it up.

Granted, I've even done this myself, but my lord, the furor surrounding this what will likely end up a relatively inconsequential debate is just too much



Yeah you are right. It's pretty tiresome to see the usual thread suspects make definite pronouncements every which way every news cycle. Anything could happen folks.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 18:45:31
May 26 2016 18:40 GMT
#77719
On the debate atm etc. You can skim through that on the bottom.
http://go.cnn.com/?stream=cnn
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1352 Posts
May 26 2016 18:51 GMT
#77720
On May 27 2016 01:02 SK.Testie wrote:
Apparently some sources are saying Trump has already backed out of the debate so it may not happen. If true I guess he's angered some Bernie fans or disenfranchised them some more.



Ha ha,if this is true then maybe the trump team started to see the risks as well.
He loses a little by backing out now but its not much,going against sanders at this point is just not worth the risk.
Let sanders do the dirty work of undermining Clinton for a little bit longer,then step in to finish it.
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