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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
May 26 2016 18:54 GMT
#77721
Nah it's not true according to the press conference I just linked. He's looking to promote the debate and this one will be for women's health issues.
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 18:55:28
May 26 2016 18:54 GMT
#77722
I just don't understand what you think Sanders will get out of a debate with Trump, GH. He's not going to win the nomination as a result. He's not going to convince anyone right of center that is going to vote for Trump not to vote for Trump. And anything he might accomplish in motivating his own supporters not to vote for Trump in the general can be accomplished just as easily off a debate stage. All it can do is dent Clinton numbers and give Trump more media coverage.

Please, explain to me what Sanders stands to gain here. And if it starts with "winning the nomination" I want to see your math showing that's possible and what it would have to do to Clinton's % in California.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
May 26 2016 18:55 GMT
#77723
Getting as much exposure for his message as possible?
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 18:58:17
May 26 2016 18:57 GMT
#77724
On May 27 2016 03:55 farvacola wrote:
Getting as much exposure for his message as possible?


To who? Anybody tuning into the debate won't care about his message (Trump supporters), already loves his message (his supporters), or has heard his message (everyone who watched Democratic debates). He already has a ton of airtime at the convention, which will shape the party platform, and he's already shifted the national narrative. This isn't going to reach some new pockets of America that don't know who he is.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
May 26 2016 18:57 GMT
#77725
On May 27 2016 03:54 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I just don't understand what you think Sanders will get out of a debate with Trump, GH. He's not going to win the nomination as a result. He's not going to convince anyone right of center that is going to vote for Trump not to vote for Trump. And anything he might accomplish in motivating his own supporters not to vote for Trump in the general can be accomplished just as easily off a debate stage. All it can do is dent Clinton numbers and give Trump more media coverage.

Please, explain to me what Sanders stands to gain here.


Sanders made his movement happen by yelling in as many ways as he could about the issues that are important to him. A national debate with Donald Trump, the king of viewership, is the single best way Bernie could ever spread his message. The fact that he's been spending such that he basically hits zero or negative after California gives clue that he was basically just intending to be a suicide bomber for income inequality and progressive movements. And to that end, nothing has a better chance at giving him a legacy than a giant stage against Trump. Bernie debating Trump could be an incredible thing for progressivism (is that a word? lol).
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 18:59:25
May 26 2016 18:59 GMT
#77726
On May 27 2016 03:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2016 03:55 farvacola wrote:
Getting as much exposure for his message as possible?


To who? Anybody tuning into the debate won't care about his message (Trump supporters), already loves his message (his supporters), or has heard his message (everyone who watched Democratic debates). He already has a ton of airtime at the convention, which will shape the party platform, and he's already shifted the national narrative. This isn't going to reach some new pockets of America that don't know who he is.

I think you underestimate the power of spectacle, even one that may have already played out in one way or another. A prime time debate with the presumptive Republican nominee is something politicians like Sanders usually can only dream about.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23982 Posts
May 26 2016 19:01 GMT
#77727
On May 27 2016 03:55 farvacola wrote:
Getting as much exposure for his message as possible?


Quite obviously this. The idea that it's about ego is laughable, he's the least egotistical person in the campaign by any reasonable measure.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
May 26 2016 19:03 GMT
#77728
On May 27 2016 03:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2016 03:55 farvacola wrote:
Getting as much exposure for his message as possible?


To who? Anybody tuning into the debate won't care about his message (Trump supporters), already loves his message (his supporters), or has heard his message (everyone who watched Democratic debates). He already has a ton of airtime at the convention, which will shape the party platform, and he's already shifted the national narrative. This isn't going to reach some new pockets of America that don't know who he is.


Yeah you are right. Once anybody has said something once somewhere there's no point in trying to get more publicity. If we got rid of all the redundancies we'd have so much more time on our airways for reruns of Seinfeld and Friends.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1416 Posts
May 26 2016 19:07 GMT
#77729
For the democrats this debate is great. Sanders does a lot better against trump in the polls then Clinton.
They know Clinton wont stand much change against trump at this moment in time, so they bring forward the strongest candidate to debate him while not exposing Clinton even more.
Then later on the sanders supporters will go to Clinton,they don't particulary like her but its still the same party at least.
Best for trump would probably to not attack sanders to much,but in a debate and with his temper,anything can happen.
Bernie is sort of like untouchable amongst leftwing people,somewhat similar to what trump has been. Letting them clash can only be good for Clinton I think,though she still has a very steep mountain to climb regardless.

Game on,
When exactly is this debate supposed to happen? I would not want to miss it.
My prediction is that trump,s position will be weaker after the debate.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23982 Posts
May 26 2016 19:10 GMT
#77730
On May 27 2016 04:07 pmh wrote:
For the democrats this debate is great. Sanders does a lot better against trump in the polls then Clinton.
They know Clinton wont stand much change against trump at this moment in time, so they bring forward the strongest candidate to debate him while not exposing Clinton even more.
Then later on the sanders supporters will go to Clinton,they don't particulary like her but its still the same party at least.
Best for trump would probably to not attack sanders to much,but in a debate and with his temper,anything can happen.
Bernie is sort of like untouchable amongst leftwing people,somewhat similar to what trump has been. Letting them clash can only be good for Clinton I think,though she still has a very steep mountain to climb regardless.

Game on,
When exactly is this debate supposed to happen? I would not want to miss it.
My prediction is that trump,s position will be weaker after the debate.


Trump confirmed the campaigns were sorting out the details. I'm guessing some time next week.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22405 Posts
May 26 2016 19:28 GMT
#77731
My guess is after Cali. Trump wants Sanders to be down and out so he can try and persuade as many of his voters as possible.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6161 Posts
May 26 2016 19:30 GMT
#77732
On May 27 2016 04:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2016 04:07 pmh wrote:
For the democrats this debate is great. Sanders does a lot better against trump in the polls then Clinton.
They know Clinton wont stand much change against trump at this moment in time, so they bring forward the strongest candidate to debate him while not exposing Clinton even more.
Then later on the sanders supporters will go to Clinton,they don't particulary like her but its still the same party at least.
Best for trump would probably to not attack sanders to much,but in a debate and with his temper,anything can happen.
Bernie is sort of like untouchable amongst leftwing people,somewhat similar to what trump has been. Letting them clash can only be good for Clinton I think,though she still has a very steep mountain to climb regardless.

Game on,
When exactly is this debate supposed to happen? I would not want to miss it.
My prediction is that trump,s position will be weaker after the debate.


Trump confirmed the campaigns were sorting out the details. I'm guessing some time next week.

I'll probably wait until there's a tweet from him so I know it's official.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 26 2016 19:30 GMT
#77733
WASHINGTON — House Republicans unexpectedly sunk their own $37.4 billion water and energy spending bill on Thursday because it included a provision ensuring that people who work for government contractors can’t be fired for being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender.

The bill failed 112 to 305, with 130 Republicans and 175 Democrats opposing it.

Nearly every Democrat voted against it, but that was expected. They’d raised concerns with riders in the bill that would undermine the Clean Water Act and allow people to carry firearms on Corps of Engineers lands. They also opposed language added late Wednesday by Republicans that would prevent the federal government from revoking funds to North Carolina over its controversial law affecting transgender people going to the bathroom.

The real surprise was seeing conservatives line up against the bill over an amendment added late Wednesday by Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney (D-N.Y.). His provision would preserve a 2014 executive order by President Barack Obama that bars federal contractors from discriminating against people based on their sexual orientation or gender identity. The House accepted his amendment 223 to 195, with moderate Republicans joining with Democrats to pass it.

Lawmakers fought over a similar LGBT amendment last week when Maloney unsuccessfully tried to attach it to a military spending bill. He had the votes to pass it at one point, but GOP leaders held the voting open after the clock ran out, and strong-armed just enough Republicans to switch their votes and bring it down. That sent the chamber into chaos, with Democrats shouting, “Shame! Shame! Shame!” at GOP lawmakers who changed their votes.

So it was already a sensitive issue when Maloney’s amendment came back up Wednesday night. Politico reported that as Republicans huddled Thursday morning before the vote, Rep. Rick Allen (R-Ga.) read aloud a passage from the Bible and asked people if they were prepared to violate their religious principles by supporting the bill. That didn’t sit well with some in the room.

“Many members were visibly disturbed by the comments,” a GOP source in the room, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told The Huffington Post. “At least one walked out.”

Beyond that, the conservative Heritage Foundation announced Thursday morning that it opposed the bill over Maloney’s amendment and vowed to include it as a key vote on its legislative scorecard — a public record of how conservative each lawmaker ranks. That drove scores of GOP lawmakers to oppose the legislation.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 19:38:42
May 26 2016 19:38 GMT
#77734
He's kinda killing it tbh.
+ Show Spoiler +

Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45971 Posts
May 26 2016 19:38 GMT
#77735
It's good to know that the House Republicans hate gay people even more than they hate ensuring clean water and energy. >.>
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-26 19:49:36
May 26 2016 19:41 GMT
#77736
On May 27 2016 04:03 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2016 03:57 TheTenthDoc wrote:
On May 27 2016 03:55 farvacola wrote:
Getting as much exposure for his message as possible?


To who? Anybody tuning into the debate won't care about his message (Trump supporters), already loves his message (his supporters), or has heard his message (everyone who watched Democratic debates). He already has a ton of airtime at the convention, which will shape the party platform, and he's already shifted the national narrative. This isn't going to reach some new pockets of America that don't know who he is.


Yeah you are right. Once anybody has said something once somewhere there's no point in trying to get more publicity. If we got rid of all the redundancies we'd have so much more time on our airways for reruns of Seinfeld and Friends.


There are plenty of ways to spread your message to people that haven't heard it or in ways that will impact policy that don't result in someone you've said would be a disaster as president of the United States having a better chance at being the next president of the United States rather than one of the people you've said multiple times on stage would be a much better choice.

But who knows? Maybe I just have the situation all wrong and this will hurt Trump more than it helps him...somehow.

Edit: I'm not saying Sanders shouldn't try to spread his message on national T.V. or that he should give up. I just don't think the optimal way is through debates with people whose constituency conflates socialism with the devil and who he really doesn't seem to like.

(and yes, it sucks that our country has no way for him to do that cost-effectively while having a ghastly, overwrought electoral system)
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 26 2016 19:44 GMT
#77737
On May 27 2016 04:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It's good to know that the House Republicans hate gay people even more than they hate ensuring clean water and energy. >.>


The Conservatives are up for reelection so they have to show their constituents that they are just as bigoted as they are. One can only hope this is another sign of organized religion/evangelicalism in it's death throes in this country.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6161 Posts
May 26 2016 19:45 GMT
#77738
I think he still needs more teleprompter practice though, Testie.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 26 2016 19:51 GMT
#77739
When people are attacked, their allies defend them.
I wonder if it woudln't have been better for the republicans (on a strategic level) to not push the email thing much, and just note it as a concern, and ask for appropriate investigations, but not go around with congressional committee investigations (or at least not much).

By attacking, it makes it look more like just another hillary attack, but if they left it alone to develop on its own, then Dems wouldn't feel a need to protect Hillary, so the'yd be more likely to focus on the screwup inherent in the act.

Just a strategic thought.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
May 26 2016 20:45 GMT
#77740
On May 27 2016 04:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 27 2016 04:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
It's good to know that the House Republicans hate gay people even more than they hate ensuring clean water and energy. >.>


The Conservatives are up for reelection so they have to show their constituents that they are just as bigoted as they are. One can only hope this is another sign of organized religion/evangelicalism in it's death throes in this country.


If Clinton wins, I would argue it is dead for good. For them, it is a race against time. Religious rates are dropping quick and there's no sign of a comeback. Religion isn't needed anymore. Telling people god would punish them if they didn't allow for societal norms to be established was essential. Gotta herd the cattle. But we're able to do ok with it at this point.
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