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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 18 2016 21:30 GMT
#59241
The woman inside the ambulance was miscarrying. That was clear from the foul-smelling fluid leaving her body. As the vehicle wailed toward the hospital, a doctor waiting for her arrival phoned a specialist, who was unequivocal: the baby would die. The woman might follow. Induce labor immediately.

But staff at the Mercy Health Partners hospital in Muskegon, Michigan would not induce labor for another 10 hours. Instead, they followed a set of directives written by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops that forbid terminating a pregnancy unless the mother is in grave condition. Doctors decided they would delay until the woman showed signs of sepsis – a life-threatening response to an advanced infection – or the fetal heart stopped on its own.

In the end, it was sepsis. When the woman delivered, at 1.41am, doctors had been watching her temperature climb for more than eight hours. Her infant lived for 65 minutes.

This story is just one example of how a single Catholic hospital risked the health of five different women in a span of 17 months, according to a new report leaked to the Guardian.

The report, by a former Muskegon County health official, Faith Groesbeck, accuses Mercy Health Partners of forcing five women between August 2009 and December 2010 to undergo dangerous miscarriages by giving them no other option.

All five women, the report says, had symptoms indicating that it would be safest for them to deliver immediately. But instead of informing the women of their options, the report says, or offering to transfer them to a different hospital, doctors – apparently out of deference to the Mercy Health Partners’ strict ban on abortion – unilaterally decided to subject the women to prolonged miscarriages.

As a result, the report claims, several of the women suffered infection or emotional trauma, or had to undergo unnecessary surgery. None of the women were pregnant beyond 24 weeks, when an infant can survive outside the womb.

The report has not previously been made public. And it offers a disturbing look at how religious restrictions may interfere with emergency care. Catholic control of US hospitals has ballooned in the last 15 years, and with it, patient advocates warn, the risk that the US Bishops’ bans on abortion, contraception and sterilization will prevent thousands of women from receiving critical healthcare. A 2013 tally found that 381 out of 3,786 of the country’s hospitals were Catholic, meaning they followed the Bishops’ rules for healthcare.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23956 Posts
February 18 2016 21:38 GMT
#59242
Robby Mook, the Clinton campaign manager, sat at the head of a conference table in the New York office of Clinton donor and Wall Street investor Marc Lasry, according to accounts from people in the room. Joining them for the state-of-the-race conversation over coffee were members of the campaign’s finance steering committee, including Maureen White, the former Democratic National Committee finance chairwoman, Alan Patricof, Michael Kempner, Robert Zimmerman, Betsy Cohen, Jay Snyder and others.

Mr. Mook told the donors that the outcome in Nevada, a state he ran for Mrs. Clinton in the 2008 campaign, was hard to predict and that, depending on turnout, Mrs. Clinton could win by a lot or win or lose by a tiny margin, according to several donors who requested anonymity to discuss the private meeting. But Mr. Mook stressed that the map leaned in Mrs. Clinton’s favor as the race moved to South Carolina, where he was confident she would win, and that she would do well on March 1, when more states voted.

The collected fundraisers, who for years have bundled checks for Mrs. Clinton’s campaign, listened approvingly as Ms. White, who seemed especially frustrated, expressed bewilderment that the campaign’s mobilization of grassroots support had been eclipsed in the news media by Bernie Sanders’s criticism of Mrs. Clinton as the establishment candidate representing big money.


Source

Hilarious for them to be sitting around a conference table with a bunch of big money establishment donors in a NY Wall St donors office taking instruction from them and they wonder why their small donors (dwarfed by Sanders by comparison) don't get more attention.

Clinton is in a corner too, she needs more money but can't go to the places she needs to to get it because it has terrible optics, and undermines her suggestion she's going to reign her friends in. So now they are trying to talk those donors into donating to see staff members instead. Let's just say it's not as effective.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 21:47:23
February 18 2016 21:44 GMT
#59243
This isn't in response to anyone, so I apologize for wanting to start my own tangent. But this is a rant I've long had and shared with people, and I'd like some perspective on it.

This shows the top tax rates in the U.S. for the past ~100 years:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=543

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


And this, obviously, is a timeline of our National Debt.

Reagan's tax cuts were quite drastic, in that the last time the top bracket paid below 40% was... The Great Depression.

The 40's, 50's and 60's are considered America's best decades, economically speaking, in terms of how drastically we grew. We also kept tight control of our nation's budget.

The top tax bracket was paying 91% in those times. Ninety-one-fucking-percent. Granted these taxes were "provisional", meaning the 90% tax rate would only apply to income accrued within or above that bracket (similar to the style that Sander's is proposing). But... small difference. The point is anyone who made a million dollars back then was paying the vast majority of it to the Federal government.

So, by conservative logic, no one should have bothered becoming a millionaire, and our economy should've stagnated and decayed. But... the opposite happened.

Since Reagan's tax cuts, the National Debt has continually climbed. No President since Reagan, even that Commie Obama, has raised taxes over 40%. It's really all been Reaganomics, all day, every day, for the past 36 years.

Doesn't it just make fucking sense to do what we did in our nation's greatest days. I mean jumping right to 90% is a bit extreme and would be too rough on the system, I'm sure. But we should, you know, start the trend at least.

I don't know how anyone looks at our nation's tax history, and could come to any other conclusion besides "raise taxes".

I'd love to know what a conservative here thinks of our nation's tax rates in the 20th Century, and how they reflect on today. Were we "socailst/communist" throughout most of the 20th Century? And if so, well, wasn't that kind of a good thing?
Big water
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22372 Posts
February 18 2016 21:50 GMT
#59244
On February 19 2016 06:44 Leporello wrote:
This isn't in response to anyone, so I apologize for wanting to start my own tangent. But this is a rant I've long had and shared with people, and I'd like some perspective on it.

This shows the top tax rates in the U.S. for the past ~100 years:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=543

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


And this, obviously, is a timeline of our National Debt.

Reagan's tax cuts were quite drastic, in that the last time the top bracket paid below 40% was... The Great Depression.

The 40's, 50's and 60's are considered America's best decades, economically speaking, in terms of how drastically we grew. We also kept tight control of our nation's budget.

The top tax bracket was paying 91% in those times. Ninety-one-fucking-percent. Granted these taxes were "provisional", meaning the 90% tax rate would only apply to income accrued within or above that bracket (similar to the style that Sander's is proposing). But... small difference. The point is anyone who made a million dollars back then was paying the vast majority of it to the Federal government.

So, by conservative logic, no one should have bothered becoming a millionaire, and our economy should've stagnated and decayed. But... the opposite happened.

Since Reagan's tax cuts, the National Debt has continually climbed. No President since Reagan, even that Commie Obama, has raised taxes over 40%. It's really all been Reaganomics, all day, every day, for the past 36 years.

Doesn't it just make fucking sense to do what we did in our nation's greatest days. I mean jumping right to 90% is a bit extreme and would be too rough on the system, I'm sure. But we should, you know, start the trend at least.

I don't know how anyone looks at our nation's tax history, and could come to any other conclusion besides "raise taxes".

I'd love to know what a conservative here thinks of our nation's tax rates in the 20th Century, and how they reflect on today. Were we "socailst/communist" throughout most of the 20th Century? And if so, well, wasn't that kind of a good thing?

The world is a vastly different place. It is a LOT easier to move somewhere else now then it was 40 years ago. The rich already make extensive use of tax havens and loopholes. No one country can raise taxes that high, the rich will simply move somewhere else.
The trick is to find the high point where the rich pay a lot but low enough that it is not worth leaving.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 22:06:39
February 18 2016 21:56 GMT
#59245
At 90%, sure, they can go elsewhere. But at 50%, where are they going to go to pay less tax, that would still be a "first-world" country?
I'm not saying jump right to 90%, but looking at our history and comparing us to nations in present times... why would we not raise taxes to at least 50% on the top bracket?

Why not? It seems the most crazy common-sense thing to do.

Sorry if I deter from the Apple/NSA/FBI discussion, but I... don't own an Apple and I'm not a terrorist, I just don't care.


Thank you, Daunt, for the reply below. I do need to look more at the history of spending.
Which, I'll admit, is much more convoluted.
Big water
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 18 2016 21:58 GMT
#59246
On February 19 2016 06:44 Leporello wrote:
This isn't in response to anyone, so I apologize for wanting to start my own tangent. But this is a rant I've long had and shared with people, and I'd like some perspective on it.

This shows the top tax rates in the U.S. for the past ~100 years:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=543

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


And this, obviously, is a timeline of our National Debt.

Reagan's tax cuts were quite drastic, in that the last time the top bracket paid below 40% was... The Great Depression.

The 40's, 50's and 60's are considered America's best decades, economically speaking, in terms of how drastically we grew. We also kept tight control of our nation's budget.

The top tax bracket was paying 91% in those times. Ninety-one-fucking-percent. Granted these taxes were "provisional", meaning the 90% tax rate would only apply to income accrued within or above that bracket (similar to the style that Sander's is proposing). But... small difference. The point is anyone who made a million dollars back then was paying the vast majority of it to the Federal government.

So, by conservative logic, no one should have bothered becoming a millionaire, and our economy should've stagnated and decayed. But... the opposite happened.

Since Reagan's tax cuts, the National Debt has continually climbed. No President since Reagan, even that Commie Obama, has raised taxes over 40%. It's really all been Reaganomics, all day, every day, for the past 36 years.

Doesn't it just make fucking sense to do what we did in our nation's greatest days. I mean jumping right to 90% is a bit extreme and would be too rough on the system, I'm sure. But we should, you know, start the trend at least.

I don't know how anyone looks at our nation's tax history, and could come to any other conclusion besides "raise taxes".

I'd love to know what a conservative here thinks of our nation's tax rates in the 20th Century, and how they reflect on today. Were we "socailst/communist" throughout most of the 20th Century? And if so, well, wasn't that kind of a good thing?

When you actually look at the numbers, it becomes quite obvious that no feasible tax increase will close the budget hole. What we have is a spending problem. Not a revenue problem.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11839 Posts
February 18 2016 22:00 GMT
#59247
If you are looking for places to cut spending, i would suggest not going out to invade or bomb other countries for random reasons that don't make any sense at all, just to destabilize a whole area of the world.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23956 Posts
February 18 2016 22:02 GMT
#59248
On February 19 2016 07:00 Simberto wrote:
If you are looking for places to cut spending, i would suggest not going out to invade or bomb other countries for random reasons that don't make any sense at all, just to destabilize a whole area of the world.


Then the military industrial complex gets cranky and our snickers budget goes through the roof...
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 18 2016 22:02 GMT
#59249
Going to war while cutting taxes for the rich was not a good idea for the US’s bottom line. It should be avoided in the future. Taxes should go up if military action is necessary, not down.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43989 Posts
February 18 2016 22:05 GMT
#59250
On February 19 2016 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2016 07:00 Simberto wrote:
If you are looking for places to cut spending, i would suggest not going out to invade or bomb other countries for random reasons that don't make any sense at all, just to destabilize a whole area of the world.


Then the military industrial complex gets cranky and our snickers budget goes through the roof...

The reference to Snickers amused me because ISIS fighters just had their snickers budget cut. They used to get all the Snickers you can eat as a perk of the job but due to low oil prices and air strikes they're currently having to do without. Snickers are a key part of the ISIS military industrial complex.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 18 2016 22:11 GMT
#59251
There was a Replyall podcast where they interviewed a reporter who is following ISIS and their use of the internet. There read some of those most hilarious interoffice emails about expense submissions, use of network data and people submitting bullshit receipts. IF someone didn’t tell me they were terrorist, I would have sworn they were just office emails. It was sort of hilarious and weird.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Souma
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
February 18 2016 22:19 GMT
#59252
I can't believe this is actually news:

[image loading]

Politico please.
Writer
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11839 Posts
February 18 2016 22:28 GMT
#59253
On February 19 2016 07:02 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 19 2016 07:00 Simberto wrote:
If you are looking for places to cut spending, i would suggest not going out to invade or bomb other countries for random reasons that don't make any sense at all, just to destabilize a whole area of the world.


Then the military industrial complex gets cranky and our snickers budget goes through the roof...


As a rough estimate, instead of the Iraq War you could also have bought a snickers a day to every american for the duration of that war.

(Cost 1 Trio $, duration 10 year==> ~100 Bio $/year, 300 mio americans ==> ~330$/year*american, 1$/snickers ==> 1 snickers per day per american for 10 years.)
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
February 18 2016 22:31 GMT
#59254
Trump has limits to his media power after all.

So who’s the big winner? Dare I say everyone, and here’s why: MSNBC may have finished third both in the demo and total viewers, but here’s some context: That 341k in the demo is 50 percent higher than MSNBC’s numbers the night before (All In with Chris Hayes, 223k) and about 45 percent higher than the night before that.

If MSNBC sat idly by and didn’t put the Trump event together at the last minute, it’s likely a 4-to-1 audience ratio victory for CNN. But Trump gave the network a relatively significant boost and undoubtedly ate into CNN’s audience. Because remember: CNN averaged over 900k in the demo for its previous two political Town Hall specials. And while 629K is still quite impressive and wins the night, it is noticeably down if using that 900K as a gauge… and likely because MSNBC created the GOP counter-programming it did. Again, context.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/cnn-wins-town-hall-ratings-battle-but-msnbc-trump-and-fox-all-also-can-declare-victory/
rip passion
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 18 2016 22:38 GMT
#59255
That is the most naked summation of how garbage the political process in the US has become.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 18 2016 22:42 GMT
#59256
HUGE if true.

This is pretty remarkable. Sources close to the Bush campaign are beginning to leak about a call last night. I’m told the Bush team is out of money. Pay for campaign staff will end on Saturday. The campaign is all but over.

Additionally, after having hundreds of millions of dollars on hand, the Bush Super PAC has less than $15 million from what I am being told.

What a waste.

Ironically, if Bush really wants to have an impact on the race, given that his campaign is broke, he should publicly get out of the race today. This would be like Rich Perry in 2012, who got out, cast his support to Gingrich at the last minute, and saw Gingrich storm into first place in South Carolina.

Bush could be the king maker if he gets out today.

His campaign is broke, staff is being told they will not be paid after Saturday, and Bush could shake things up significantly if he gets out now.


Source

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 22:51:14
February 18 2016 22:50 GMT
#59257
Further confirming that our political situation can be best described as a clown fiesta:

The first thing you should know about Gerald Friedman, the economist suddenly at the center of a wonk-storm over Bernie Sanders’ policy proposals, is that he does not actually support Bernie Sanders for president.

He likes Sanders. And he has written, in consultation with the Sanders campaign, an analysis that projects Sanders’ ambitious domestic agenda would raise economic growth to as high as 5.3 percent per year, yielding sustained income gains for the middle class.

But Friedman, an economist at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst, says he’ll vote for Hillary Clinton in the Democratic presidential primary.

“I support Clinton,” he said in an interview on Thursday. “I donate $10 a month to Clinton. I remember the woman who said, women’s rights are human rights. I think she did a great job as secretary of state. I agree with Bernie on economic issues, but there are other issues.”


WaPo
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
frazzle
Profile Joined June 2012
United States468 Posts
February 18 2016 22:53 GMT
#59258
On February 19 2016 06:44 Leporello wrote:
This isn't in response to anyone, so I apologize for wanting to start my own tangent. But this is a rant I've long had and shared with people, and I'd like some perspective on it.

This shows the top tax rates in the U.S. for the past ~100 years:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=543

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


And this, obviously, is a timeline of our National Debt.

Reagan's tax cuts were quite drastic, in that the last time the top bracket paid below 40% was... The Great Depression.

The 40's, 50's and 60's are considered America's best decades, economically speaking, in terms of how drastically we grew. We also kept tight control of our nation's budget.

The top tax bracket was paying 91% in those times. Ninety-one-fucking-percent. Granted these taxes were "provisional", meaning the 90% tax rate would only apply to income accrued within or above that bracket (similar to the style that Sander's is proposing). But... small difference. The point is anyone who made a million dollars back then was paying the vast majority of it to the Federal government.

So, by conservative logic, no one should have bothered becoming a millionaire, and our economy should've stagnated and decayed. But... the opposite happened.

Since Reagan's tax cuts, the National Debt has continually climbed. No President since Reagan, even that Commie Obama, has raised taxes over 40%. It's really all been Reaganomics, all day, every day, for the past 36 years.

Doesn't it just make fucking sense to do what we did in our nation's greatest days. I mean jumping right to 90% is a bit extreme and would be too rough on the system, I'm sure. But we should, you know, start the trend at least.

I don't know how anyone looks at our nation's tax history, and could come to any other conclusion besides "raise taxes".

I'd love to know what a conservative here thinks of our nation's tax rates in the 20th Century, and how they reflect on today. Were we "socailst/communist" throughout most of the 20th Century? And if so, well, wasn't that kind of a good thing?

TBF, those sky high rates from the late forties up to the Kennedy tax cut were to a great degree justified as a sort of post-war "pay off the war expenses and rebuilding" tax rate. At least back then we believed in paying for our wars with taxes, now we apparently try to pay for them with tax cuts.
On February 19 2016 06:50 Gorsameth wrote:
The world is a vastly different place. It is a LOT easier to move somewhere else now then it was 40 years ago. The rich already make extensive use of tax havens and loopholes. No one country can raise taxes that high, the rich will simply move somewhere else.
The trick is to find the high point where the rich pay a lot but low enough that it is not worth leaving.

That reply is defeatist. Get creative and punish tax avoidance. Seize assets if need be. I think the real issue is there is no political will. Besides, I think you could go to tax rates in the Reagan range, with, say, a top personal income tax rate of 50%, Capital gains at 30% and Corporate at 35% and apart from a lot of grousing, taxes would get paid.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 18 2016 23:27 GMT
#59259
On February 19 2016 07:42 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
HUGE if true.

Show nested quote +
This is pretty remarkable. Sources close to the Bush campaign are beginning to leak about a call last night. I’m told the Bush team is out of money. Pay for campaign staff will end on Saturday. The campaign is all but over.

Additionally, after having hundreds of millions of dollars on hand, the Bush Super PAC has less than $15 million from what I am being told.

What a waste.

Ironically, if Bush really wants to have an impact on the race, given that his campaign is broke, he should publicly get out of the race today. This would be like Rich Perry in 2012, who got out, cast his support to Gingrich at the last minute, and saw Gingrich storm into first place in South Carolina.

Bush could be the king maker if he gets out today.

His campaign is broke, staff is being told they will not be paid after Saturday, and Bush could shake things up significantly if he gets out now.


Source

https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/700314216188768256

Good riddance. Remember when he kicked off his campaign over a year ago stating that he was going to win the nomination without the republican base? Who'd have thunk that it would turn out to be such a shitty strategy?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-19 00:19:41
February 19 2016 00:15 GMT
#59260
the big corps reaping the network and scale effects of being big and sophisticated should be taxed more but they also do not have to be in the u.s. given the way our trade system is configured. the u.s. is an open market and companies largely exercise righhts through investment arbitration anyway which principally consists of nondiscriminatory treatment. so basically there is no cost to moving your shop overseas and stopping tax payment altogether. the recent wave of tax inversions is a part of this.

the corporate tax rate should be lowered to get more companies in the u.s., but increase personal taxation and eliminate loopholes and evasion. this would require international cooperation. but there is no magic 8 ball on that one
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
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