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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 18 2016 00:01 GMT
#58941
Also social media is a dumpster fire and shouldn't be taken as a reflection of any section of reality. Treading on twitter is like being the smartest kid in a 100 student high school.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
killa_robot
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1884 Posts
February 18 2016 00:03 GMT
#58942
On February 18 2016 08:43 Plansix wrote:
All the candidates bring up aspects of themselves that their base likes all the time. Unprovoked or otherwise. I really don’t see her saying she is a woman that made it in Washington any worse than Sanders being proud of his voting record on Iraq. Trump claiming he is a good businessman. Rubio talking about his family. Cruz talking about the pod of lizard people he grew up with.

Another way to think about it is this. No woman that supports Clinton is going to be receptive to the argument that Clinton is pandering to her or she supports Clinton because she is a woman. Any woman in any field deals with the implied sexism of them obtaining a job/position/support due to being a woman/attractive. For them, it is like the sun, constant. They cannot be won over with that argument, so why would anyone even make it? Why even make it a topic?


Because those are things that they are proud of, whereas her being a woman is simply a factual statement that holds no real meaning.

It's the difference between saying you should get a job based on experience vs your gender/skin tone (I mean, growing up with lizard people has to have given him some sort of edge, right?).
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23761 Posts
February 18 2016 00:04 GMT
#58943
On February 18 2016 08:56 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:52 Aquanim wrote:
I'm not sure why anybody thinks that comments made by Clinton (or anybody else) about misogyny are more likely to be directed at Sanders supporters than at Republicans.


Are you on social media?

Nope :p

I do appreciate that the Clinton campaign has the knives out for Sanders at this stage, but that particular accusation sticks so much better to the Republicans than to Sanders.


Well that's probably a big reason why it's confusing. But the reason it was obviously directed at Sanders supports comes in the following context

And when I watched her in that first debate with Bernie Sanders a couple of months ago, after ten minutes I was like, ‘Oh, yeah. This is the woman who was crushing it against Obama in every single debate.’ ”

“I do think I’m a better candidate,” says Clinton.


She's doubling down on the concept that it was a significant reason she lost to Obama too.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:10:38
February 18 2016 00:07 GMT
#58944
On February 18 2016 09:03 killa_robot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 08:43 Plansix wrote:
All the candidates bring up aspects of themselves that their base likes all the time. Unprovoked or otherwise. I really don’t see her saying she is a woman that made it in Washington any worse than Sanders being proud of his voting record on Iraq. Trump claiming he is a good businessman. Rubio talking about his family. Cruz talking about the pod of lizard people he grew up with.

Another way to think about it is this. No woman that supports Clinton is going to be receptive to the argument that Clinton is pandering to her or she supports Clinton because she is a woman. Any woman in any field deals with the implied sexism of them obtaining a job/position/support due to being a woman/attractive. For them, it is like the sun, constant. They cannot be won over with that argument, so why would anyone even make it? Why even make it a topic?


Because those are things that they are proud of, whereas her being a woman is simply a factual statement that holds no real meaning.

It's the difference between saying you should get a job based on experience vs your gender/skin tone (I mean, growing up with lizard people has to have given him some sort of edge, right?).

You should get jobs based on your accomplishments within the system that exists. Until racism, sexism and poverty are eliminated from society, peoples backgrounds matter. How much they matter is up to the individual. Claiming these issues are not challenged people face completely unproductive discussion.

Or more importantly, just because you are not impressed doesn't mean everyone holds your opinion.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
February 18 2016 00:10 GMT
#58945
On February 18 2016 09:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 08:56 Aquanim wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:52 Aquanim wrote:
I'm not sure why anybody thinks that comments made by Clinton (or anybody else) about misogyny are more likely to be directed at Sanders supporters than at Republicans.


Are you on social media?

Nope :p

I do appreciate that the Clinton campaign has the knives out for Sanders at this stage, but that particular accusation sticks so much better to the Republicans than to Sanders.


Well that's probably a big reason why it's confusing. But the reason it was obviously directed at Sanders supports comes in the following context

Show nested quote +
And when I watched her in that first debate with Bernie Sanders a couple of months ago, after ten minutes I was like, ‘Oh, yeah. This is the woman who was crushing it against Obama in every single debate.’ ”

“I do think I’m a better candidate,” says Clinton.


She's doubling down on the concept that it was a significant reason she lost to Obama too.

Having read the article myself, I don't think the second quote was actually meant to give context to the first. The first is in the context of "the environment being better for a woman than previously", the second is in the context of "Clinton being a better candidate than previously". The segue from one to another starts at
Other people have noticed a big improvement in Clinton, too

and is pretty easy to miss, given the way in which it is written.
killa_robot
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada1884 Posts
February 18 2016 00:10 GMT
#58946
On February 18 2016 09:07 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:03 killa_robot wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:43 Plansix wrote:
All the candidates bring up aspects of themselves that their base likes all the time. Unprovoked or otherwise. I really don’t see her saying she is a woman that made it in Washington any worse than Sanders being proud of his voting record on Iraq. Trump claiming he is a good businessman. Rubio talking about his family. Cruz talking about the pod of lizard people he grew up with.

Another way to think about it is this. No woman that supports Clinton is going to be receptive to the argument that Clinton is pandering to her or she supports Clinton because she is a woman. Any woman in any field deals with the implied sexism of them obtaining a job/position/support due to being a woman/attractive. For them, it is like the sun, constant. They cannot be won over with that argument, so why would anyone even make it? Why even make it a topic?


Because those are things that they are proud of, whereas her being a woman is simply a factual statement that holds no real meaning.

It's the difference between saying you should get a job based on experience vs your gender/skin tone (I mean, growing up with lizard people has to have given him some sort of edge, right?).

You should get jobs based on your accomplishments within the system that exists. Until racism, sexism and poverty are eliminated from society, peoples backgrounds matter. How much they matter is up to the individual. Claiming these issues are not challenged people face completely unproductive discussion.

Or more importantly, just because you are not impressed doesn't mean everyone holds your opinion.


So, I should be impressed that she's a woman?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 18 2016 00:13 GMT
#58947
On February 18 2016 09:10 killa_robot wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:07 Plansix wrote:
On February 18 2016 09:03 killa_robot wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:43 Plansix wrote:
All the candidates bring up aspects of themselves that their base likes all the time. Unprovoked or otherwise. I really don’t see her saying she is a woman that made it in Washington any worse than Sanders being proud of his voting record on Iraq. Trump claiming he is a good businessman. Rubio talking about his family. Cruz talking about the pod of lizard people he grew up with.

Another way to think about it is this. No woman that supports Clinton is going to be receptive to the argument that Clinton is pandering to her or she supports Clinton because she is a woman. Any woman in any field deals with the implied sexism of them obtaining a job/position/support due to being a woman/attractive. For them, it is like the sun, constant. They cannot be won over with that argument, so why would anyone even make it? Why even make it a topic?


Because those are things that they are proud of, whereas her being a woman is simply a factual statement that holds no real meaning.

It's the difference between saying you should get a job based on experience vs your gender/skin tone (I mean, growing up with lizard people has to have given him some sort of edge, right?).

You should get jobs based on your accomplishments within the system that exists. Until racism, sexism and poverty are eliminated from society, peoples backgrounds matter. How much they matter is up to the individual. Claiming these issues are not challenged people face completely unproductive discussion.

Or more importantly, just because you are not impressed doesn't mean everyone holds your opinion.


So, I should be impressed that she's a woman?

The bait is strong this one. You should make up your own mind on how much it matters. Personally, I always consider peoples backgrounds and the challenges they face when considering if I should be impressed or not. Where people grew up and the society they existed in are a huge factor in their background.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:18:23
February 18 2016 00:16 GMT
#58948
On February 18 2016 09:01 Plansix wrote:
Also social media is a dumpster fire and shouldn't be taken as a reflection of any section of reality. Treading on twitter is like being the smartest kid in a 100 student high school.


give those kids some credit yo.

On February 18 2016 09:13 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:10 killa_robot wrote:
On February 18 2016 09:07 Plansix wrote:
On February 18 2016 09:03 killa_robot wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:43 Plansix wrote:
All the candidates bring up aspects of themselves that their base likes all the time. Unprovoked or otherwise. I really don’t see her saying she is a woman that made it in Washington any worse than Sanders being proud of his voting record on Iraq. Trump claiming he is a good businessman. Rubio talking about his family. Cruz talking about the pod of lizard people he grew up with.

Another way to think about it is this. No woman that supports Clinton is going to be receptive to the argument that Clinton is pandering to her or she supports Clinton because she is a woman. Any woman in any field deals with the implied sexism of them obtaining a job/position/support due to being a woman/attractive. For them, it is like the sun, constant. They cannot be won over with that argument, so why would anyone even make it? Why even make it a topic?


Because those are things that they are proud of, whereas her being a woman is simply a factual statement that holds no real meaning.

It's the difference between saying you should get a job based on experience vs your gender/skin tone (I mean, growing up with lizard people has to have given him some sort of edge, right?).

You should get jobs based on your accomplishments within the system that exists. Until racism, sexism and poverty are eliminated from society, peoples backgrounds matter. How much they matter is up to the individual. Claiming these issues are not challenged people face completely unproductive discussion.

Or more importantly, just because you are not impressed doesn't mean everyone holds your opinion.


So, I should be impressed that she's a woman?

The bait is strong this one. You should make up your own mind on how much it matters. Personally, I always consider peoples backgrounds and the challenges they face when considering if I should be impressed or not. Where people grew up and the society they existed in are a huge factor in their background.


same reason we're more impressed with a rags to riches than a riches to more riches (trump) story
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 18 2016 00:17 GMT
#58949
On February 18 2016 08:19 Simberto wrote:
But "You should vote for me because i am a woman" is a really bad argument to make. You should not vote for a person based on their gender, the color of their skin, their religion, or anything else. You should vote for the person that you think will make the best president, not for some symbolic statement.

And thus, people get annoyed by Hillary constantly mentioning the fact that she is female. It should not be relevant whether she is female or not.

What you should ask yourself is "Would it change who i prefer as a president if Hillary Clinton were male and Bernie Sanders were female." If that is the case, you are sexist. Elevating such a superficial detail of a person to a defining factor of them is very shallow, and in my opinion you should focus on issues as opposed to gender.


So men are constantly playing a default identity politics where they are implicitly telling men (and women) to vote for them because they are men.

Women hate this, and rightly so, for being sexist.

So Hillary plays the vote for me because I'm a woman card.

And this hypocrisy doesn't bother you?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 18 2016 00:17 GMT
#58950
my take on clinton's identity politics is that she is actually being technocratic in doing this.

reason being her campaign research should show that her clear advantage is in the identity groups and like a smart marketer she is trying to press her advantage.

it's sort of a reflection of her limitations in the lack of charisma or 'creative risktaking' but i don't think it reflects her actual politics all that much.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23761 Posts
February 18 2016 00:17 GMT
#58951
On February 18 2016 09:10 Aquanim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:04 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:56 Aquanim wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:52 Aquanim wrote:
I'm not sure why anybody thinks that comments made by Clinton (or anybody else) about misogyny are more likely to be directed at Sanders supporters than at Republicans.


Are you on social media?

Nope :p

I do appreciate that the Clinton campaign has the knives out for Sanders at this stage, but that particular accusation sticks so much better to the Republicans than to Sanders.


Well that's probably a big reason why it's confusing. But the reason it was obviously directed at Sanders supports comes in the following context

And when I watched her in that first debate with Bernie Sanders a couple of months ago, after ten minutes I was like, ‘Oh, yeah. This is the woman who was crushing it against Obama in every single debate.’ ”

“I do think I’m a better candidate,” says Clinton.


She's doubling down on the concept that it was a significant reason she lost to Obama too.

Having read the article myself, I don't think the second quote was actually meant to give context to the first. The first is in the context of "the environment being better for a woman than previously", the second is in the context of "Clinton being a better candidate than previously". The segue from one to another starts at
Show nested quote +
Other people have noticed a big improvement in Clinton, too

and is pretty easy to miss, given the way in which it is written.


It takes a bit of reading between the lines and understanding how this kind of stuff works in the electorate but like I said it's just standard to me.

As for plansix's argument about being a woman, it's impressive to be a successful woman in anything dominated by men. That said, she does women and everyone a disservice by not presenting an honest picture of how she got where she is.

"Just marry a man who becomes president and you young ladies could become president too!" would be about as honest as she is being by fluffing the shit out of her struggle.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:22:51
February 18 2016 00:21 GMT
#58952
Childhood Poverty: Combat poverty among children by increasing access to social safety net programs that address the roots of systemic economic inequities.

Affordable Child Care: Good child care is essential and far too costly. Every working family should have access to good, affordable child care.

Early Childhood Education: States should receive funding for universal pre-kindergarten programs and full-day kindergarten, as the early years are the most important stage in human development.

Nutrition: In our land of plenty, every child has the right to nutritious food regardless of his or her family’s economic situation.

this sanders plan looks pretty good. he should talk about it more. building a ton of preschools, train and hire caretakers, good use of money, skyhigh multiplier!!1`11
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:40:06
February 18 2016 00:23 GMT
#58953
oh come on. hillary is not running on bill's record-- sure it is part of her campaign (she definitely impacted a lot of things as first lady so it's fine to take credit for that), but to ignore her personal accomplishments (of which there are many) is stupid.

besides, you can't have it both ways. you can't say "well she was just married to bill" when you mention the accomplishments of his administration while saying "wow the clintons suck" when you bring up the failures. its more nuanced than that.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:26:58
February 18 2016 00:25 GMT
#58954
On February 18 2016 09:17 oneofthem wrote:
my take on clinton's identity politics is that she is actually being technocratic in doing this.

reason being her campaign research should show that her clear advantage is in the identity groups and like a smart marketer she is trying to press her advantage.

it's sort of a reflection of her limitations in the lack of charisma or 'creative risktaking' but i don't think it reflects her actual politics all that much.


It reflects her politics insofar as she a technocrat, which is one of my primary objections to her.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11786 Posts
February 18 2016 00:31 GMT
#58955
On February 18 2016 09:17 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 08:19 Simberto wrote:
But "You should vote for me because i am a woman" is a really bad argument to make. You should not vote for a person based on their gender, the color of their skin, their religion, or anything else. You should vote for the person that you think will make the best president, not for some symbolic statement.

And thus, people get annoyed by Hillary constantly mentioning the fact that she is female. It should not be relevant whether she is female or not.

What you should ask yourself is "Would it change who i prefer as a president if Hillary Clinton were male and Bernie Sanders were female." If that is the case, you are sexist. Elevating such a superficial detail of a person to a defining factor of them is very shallow, and in my opinion you should focus on issues as opposed to gender.


So men are constantly playing a default identity politics where they are implicitly telling men (and women) to vote for them because they are men.

Women hate this, and rightly so, for being sexist.

So Hillary plays the vote for me because I'm a woman card.

And this hypocrisy doesn't bother you?

I don't vote for people based on their gender.

I also don't think i have ever seen someone say "Vote for me because i am a man!" or anything along those lines. Or do you mean by "implicitly" "They don't actually say that, but some sexist people will prefer a man for being male". In that case, what you should be aiming for is for those people to stop being sexist, as opposed to some sort of "reverse sexism" (And yes, i know that that phrase is overused bei scummy MRA people, but i can't think of a better word to describe what i mean), where you demand that people vote for you only because you are female, and not because of your accomplishments, qualifications, or whatever else might be important.

As i said, a good test is "Would it change my opinion if the genders were reversed" Imagine Bernadette Sanders vs Hugh Clinton. Does that change who you would vote for? If yes, than you are still influenced by the gender of people, which you really shouldn't if you do believe in the equality of man and woman. And for me, a candidate who focussed on that kind of identity as a selling point loses points (Not that they matter, as i obviously don't vote in the US anyways), because they are clearly missing a point that is important to me, namely a true belief in the equality of all persons.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 18 2016 00:35 GMT
#58956
On February 18 2016 09:25 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:17 oneofthem wrote:
my take on clinton's identity politics is that she is actually being technocratic in doing this.

reason being her campaign research should show that her clear advantage is in the identity groups and like a smart marketer she is trying to press her advantage.

it's sort of a reflection of her limitations in the lack of charisma or 'creative risktaking' but i don't think it reflects her actual politics all that much.


It reflects her politics insofar as she a technocrat, which is one of my primary objections to her.

this is a curious thought though. would you oppose say joe stiglitz because of his technocratic resume. more is required to draw hillary's particular offensive brand of wonkiness.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 18 2016 00:38 GMT
#58957
On February 18 2016 09:31 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:17 IgnE wrote:
On February 18 2016 08:19 Simberto wrote:
But "You should vote for me because i am a woman" is a really bad argument to make. You should not vote for a person based on their gender, the color of their skin, their religion, or anything else. You should vote for the person that you think will make the best president, not for some symbolic statement.

And thus, people get annoyed by Hillary constantly mentioning the fact that she is female. It should not be relevant whether she is female or not.

What you should ask yourself is "Would it change who i prefer as a president if Hillary Clinton were male and Bernie Sanders were female." If that is the case, you are sexist. Elevating such a superficial detail of a person to a defining factor of them is very shallow, and in my opinion you should focus on issues as opposed to gender.


So men are constantly playing a default identity politics where they are implicitly telling men (and women) to vote for them because they are men.

Women hate this, and rightly so, for being sexist.

So Hillary plays the vote for me because I'm a woman card.

And this hypocrisy doesn't bother you?

I don't vote for people based on their gender.

I also don't think i have ever seen someone say "Vote for me because i am a man!" or anything along those lines. Or do you mean by "implicitly" "They don't actually say that, but some sexist people will prefer a man for being male". In that case, what you should be aiming for is for those people to stop being sexist, as opposed to some sort of "reverse sexism" (And yes, i know that that phrase is overused bei scummy MRA people, but i can't think of a better word to describe what i mean), where you demand that people vote for you only because you are female, and not because of your accomplishments, qualifications, or whatever else might be important.

As i said, a good test is "Would it change my opinion if the genders were reversed" Imagine Bernadette Sanders vs Hugh Clinton. Does that change who you would vote for? If yes, than you are still influenced by the gender of people, which you really shouldn't if you do believe in the equality of man and woman. And for me, a candidate who focussed on that kind of identity as a selling point loses points (Not that they matter, as i obviously don't vote in the US anyways), because they are clearly missing a point that is important to me, namely a true belief in the equality of all persons.

there are some objective factors in favoring women, or at least some type of women, in public office.

women are more detail oriented, less prone to idiosyncratic pursuit of ideology and so on (as frequency in population.) some have argued that women should be more involved in investment and banking to lower the appetite for risk, but obviously not a stable situation.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:40:56
February 18 2016 00:40 GMT
#58958
"Vote for me because my success as a woman in Washington proves I'm capable," is a different statement to, "Vote for me because I'm a woman."

The first is quite reasonable. The second is silly and isn't working very well anyway.

xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
February 18 2016 00:48 GMT
#58959
On February 18 2016 09:25 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2016 09:17 oneofthem wrote:
my take on clinton's identity politics is that she is actually being technocratic in doing this.

reason being her campaign research should show that her clear advantage is in the identity groups and like a smart marketer she is trying to press her advantage.

it's sort of a reflection of her limitations in the lack of charisma or 'creative risktaking' but i don't think it reflects her actual politics all that much.


It reflects her politics insofar as she a technocrat, which is one of my primary objections to her.

This is why Igne is one my favorite posters around here. He's intellectually honest.
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-18 00:52:58
February 18 2016 00:51 GMT
#58960
Do you guys see how even having this giant argument about how much femaleness Hillary can claim is evidence of the gender bias she faces? A male candidate simply never gets this discussion. You never have to weigh in on how much male-ness a male candidate can claim in his race. Check out Trump for instance. Or JEB's preposterous gun photo.

With a female candidate, we all have to have deep thoughts about just how much feminine progress Hillary can claim without going over our delicate sensibilities. Should she claim too much, our fragile male egos would be offended and we simply have to despise her. BTW, the men in this thread panicking over women claiming too much women stuff are seriously weak. You guys ought have a little pride than to be hurt by Hillary's fairly tame claims to female progress.

// 32yo white male poster
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
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