|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 21 2016 13:41 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 12:36 Jibba wrote:On January 21 2016 09:08 Evotroid wrote:On January 21 2016 08:29 xDaunt wrote:On January 21 2016 08:22 oneofthem wrote:On January 21 2016 07:44 xDaunt wrote:
Does anyone else think that Hillary may be making a fatal tactical error by fully embracing Obama's presidency? she's bound to the administration anyway so there's not much effectiveness for any sort of distancing. she'll have to put up some concrete results that she has gotten and run on a profile of competent governance. And if the economy shits itself this year? Hopefully by then they have seen enough of the republican clown show to remember that Obama may not have lived up to their hopes, but there is still waaaay lower. I sincerely share your belief that Hillary is completely untrustworthy career politician who knows how corrupt, and that if god forbid Bernie won, he couldn't achieve anything due to congress, etc. But. Please tell me, what do you hope, which republican wins, and in exactly what way will it be better, or even just simply not worse than the probably not much Hillary would do? All I see (obviously through my european bias but that is why I ask here) is repugnant, toxic social ideas (anti-planned parenthood, no sex ed,no gay marriage, etc) and views (like on climate change) that can only be explained by being completely stupid or downright evil-corrupt ... A complete disregard for any kind of social problem not directly affecting the white male population, and not in a way of bad solutions, but just pretending that there is nothing wrong like they would know it. Foreign policy? Even if I concede that Obama was even worse than Bush (a feat at that) it's not like they give any answers other than more saber rattling and bombing. (how good was it last time, right?) And finally, not one of them seems an ounce less corrupt than Hillary, they have big donors just like her, and in most "evil corporation vs general populace" they are on the corporate side, be it environment, taxation whatever. And they throw around "facts" like every gop event was a lying contest. /end semi rant/ I promise, I wont argue your hopes or anything, what do I know, I don't live there, I am just flabbergasted and curious. I agree with this completely. I don't trust Hilary and my positions align more closely with Bernie, but he's just not very good at politics. I'll take the venal, opportunist who's effective over the ineffective idealist. So far his policy outlines have not been good. What do you mean not very good at politics? Do you mean you don't like his policy outlines? http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/bernie-sanders-reparations/424602/Ta-Nehisi Coates wants Bernie Sanders to consider reparations. I don't get it.
He wants Bernie to be honest about why he doesn't support it.
Is it only because he doesn't find it pragmatic but personally supports the concept or is he against the idea of reparations themselves.
Not especially politically helpful to dive into, but as a candidate purportedly advocating unlikely ideas because they are the right thing, it's a reasonable clarification to ask for.
He's getting at more than he's letting on and it has the effect of lowering black youth turnout (especially if/when it's poorly handled) which has the net effect of helping Hillary, although he states that is not his intention and it's reasonable to believe him.
Black folks are tired of voting for the lesser of two evils and they want Bernie to be as adamant and animated about the issues that matter most to them as he is about wall street.
|
I don't even understand what he means when he says reparations. What does someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates mean when he says that he wants reparations?
In other words, I am trying to get a hold of what any person wants when they say they want reparations. What exactly do they want? A check mailed to every person who identifies as black?
|
On January 21 2016 12:19 kwizach wrote:Has anyone read this article by David Frum on the state of the Republican party? Any comments? Source
He's a little late to the party. People on the right have been talking about this stuff since at least the summer when Trump began his ascension in the polls, and some have been talking about the genesis of the rift between the republican establishment and the party base for even longer. None of what Frum says is particularly new or groundbreaking. His history of the tea party and where things went wrong for the republican political elites is fairly accurate, but his analysis of the "options" that the party has is off (though it is exactly what I'd expect from someone like Frum).
|
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
In this article it sounds like there's a bill I've never heard of:
Broach the topic of reparations today and a barrage of questions inevitably follows: Who will be paid? How much will they be paid? Who will pay? But if the practicalities, not the justice, of reparations are the true sticking point, there has for some time been the beginnings of a solution. For the past 25 years, Congressman John Conyers Jr., who represents the Detroit area, has marked every session of Congress by introducing a bill calling for a congressional study of slavery and its lingering effects as well as recommendations for “appropriate remedies.”
I'm not entirely sure what he wants to happen:
Today, progressives are loath to invoke white supremacy as an explanation for anything. On a practical level, the hesitation comes from the dim view the Supreme Court has taken of the reforms of the 1960s. The Voting Rights Act has been gutted. The Fair Housing Act might well be next. Affirmative action is on its last legs. In substituting a broad class struggle for an anti-racist struggle, progressives hope to assemble a coalition by changing the subject.
[. . .]
In the 1970s, the Yale Law professor Boris Bittker argued in The Case for Black Reparations that a rough price tag for reparations could be determined by multiplying the number of African Americans in the population by the difference in white and black per capita income. That number—$34 billion in 1973, when Bittker wrote his book—could be added to a reparations program each year for a decade or two. Today Charles Ogletree, the Harvard Law School professor, argues for something broader: a program of job training and public works that takes racial justice as its mission but includes the poor of all races.
[. . .]
John Conyers’s HR 40 is the vehicle for that hearing. No one can know what would come out of such a debate. Perhaps no number can fully capture the multi-century plunder of black people in America. Perhaps the number is so large that it can’t be imagined, let alone calculated and dispensed. But I believe that wrestling publicly with these questions matters as much as—if not more than—the specific answers that might be produced. An America that asks what it owes its most vulnerable citizens is improved and humane. An America that looks away is ignoring not just the sins of the past but the sins of the present and the certain sins of the future. More important than any single check cut to any African American, the payment of reparations would represent America’s maturation out of the childhood myth of its innocence into a wisdom worthy of its founders.
So, not quite sure what he wants. Recognition?
|
On January 21 2016 13:24 Plansix wrote:
My brother served in two tours. He got shot at, ambushed during a convoy and his lead driver had a suicide bomber blow up under the lead vehicle after being run over. He doesn't drive cities unless he is 100% forced to. He wouldn't be caught dead blaming anyone but himself. The Palins are just weak shit.
The public image of weakness is a large part of the problem. It shames grown up men who did their best into silence and dealing with problems that were caused by a hostile work environment. Their employers know by experience what awaits soldiers, far better than any new grunts on the ground can.
I believe the people of the United States would be asking a lot of serious questions and filing a great deal more lawsuits if it was not the government but some private business leaving employees behind as nervous wrecks, spitting them out and looking for new recruits to chew on.
|
The care for our veterans is currently garbage and the armed services does little to support the mental trauma caused by the two wars. Sadly, the “Support our troops’ slogan used by the armed services should end with “Because we sure won’t”. But right now the troops are used as a political football where both sides blame the other for the lack luster care.
On January 21 2016 14:52 IgnE wrote:
I don't even understand what he means when he says reparations. What does someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates mean when he says that he wants reparations?
In other words, I am trying to get a hold of what any person wants when they say they want reparations. What exactly do they want? A check mailed to every person who identifies as black?
There is a West Wing episode about this very subject. No one expects reparations, they want to start a discussion about a history of exploitation in the US and what the true “price” of it is.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
in the sense of some targeted development assistance of black communities and so on, reparation is absolutely justified. but for starters try not to actively siege and jail them
|
Are we really talking about reparations? Where did this come from lol
|
On January 21 2016 22:59 Plansix wrote:The care for our veterans is currently garbage and the armed services does little to support the mental trauma caused by the two wars. Sadly, the “Support our troops’ slogan used by the armed services should end with “Because we sure won’t”. But right now the troops are used as a political football where both sides blame the other for the lack luster care. Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 14:52 IgnE wrote:
I don't even understand what he means when he says reparations. What does someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates mean when he says that he wants reparations?
In other words, I am trying to get a hold of what any person wants when they say they want reparations. What exactly do they want? A check mailed to every person who identifies as black? There is a West Wing episode about this very subject. No one expects reparations, they want to start a discussion about a history of exploitation in the US and what the true “price” of it is.
We're all forced to go over it in school in grueling detail multiple times. I think we all get it. Black people had a shitty time a while ago and people are still kinda racist. I have grown less sympathetic because of how drawn out this whole thing is.
|
On January 22 2016 00:24 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 22:59 Plansix wrote:The care for our veterans is currently garbage and the armed services does little to support the mental trauma caused by the two wars. Sadly, the “Support our troops’ slogan used by the armed services should end with “Because we sure won’t”. But right now the troops are used as a political football where both sides blame the other for the lack luster care. On January 21 2016 14:52 IgnE wrote:
I don't even understand what he means when he says reparations. What does someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates mean when he says that he wants reparations?
In other words, I am trying to get a hold of what any person wants when they say they want reparations. What exactly do they want? A check mailed to every person who identifies as black? There is a West Wing episode about this very subject. No one expects reparations, they want to start a discussion about a history of exploitation in the US and what the true “price” of it is. We're all forced to go over it in school in grueling detail multiple times. I think we all get it. Black people had a shitty time a while ago and people are still kinda racist. I have grown less sympathetic because of how drawn out this whole thing is.
If by "we're all," you're referencing the Americans who post on this board, yeah; most if not all of us had the benefit of at least average schooling. If by "we're all," you're referencing the American public in general, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Our country's history of slavery and racism is taught very differently depending on what state you go to school in. So in that sense, no, we all don't get it because not all of "us" are being given the whole picture.
|
Medicare for all will do much more to help black people than a monthly check to black people. And neither have a chance of happening under Hillary or Republican. This seems like massive overreach. Hitting Bernie on this is ridiculous.
|
On January 22 2016 00:24 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2016 22:59 Plansix wrote:The care for our veterans is currently garbage and the armed services does little to support the mental trauma caused by the two wars. Sadly, the “Support our troops’ slogan used by the armed services should end with “Because we sure won’t”. But right now the troops are used as a political football where both sides blame the other for the lack luster care. On January 21 2016 14:52 IgnE wrote:
I don't even understand what he means when he says reparations. What does someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates mean when he says that he wants reparations?
In other words, I am trying to get a hold of what any person wants when they say they want reparations. What exactly do they want? A check mailed to every person who identifies as black? There is a West Wing episode about this very subject. No one expects reparations, they want to start a discussion about a history of exploitation in the US and what the true “price” of it is. We're all forced to go over it in school in grueling detail multiple times. I think we all get it. Black people had a shitty time a while ago and people are still kinda racist. I have grown less sympathetic because of how drawn out this whole thing is.
Here is the real question, why would anyone living with oppression, racism and other issues stemming from the history slavery care if you are tired of hearing about it? Compare your annoyance with it being “dragged out” to their struggles is living with it.
In short, they are also annoyed its been so dragged out. But not talking about it because it annoys you isn’t really a solution.
|
On January 22 2016 00:30 Deathstar wrote:
Medicare for all will do much more to help black people than a monthly check to black people. And neither have a chance of happening under Hillary or Republican. This seems like massive overreach. Hitting Bernie on this is ridiculous.
And neither the Republicans nor Hillary advocated for it. There's no way Bernie could get it to happen either.
|
On January 22 2016 00:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 00:24 Mohdoo wrote:On January 21 2016 22:59 Plansix wrote:The care for our veterans is currently garbage and the armed services does little to support the mental trauma caused by the two wars. Sadly, the “Support our troops’ slogan used by the armed services should end with “Because we sure won’t”. But right now the troops are used as a political football where both sides blame the other for the lack luster care. On January 21 2016 14:52 IgnE wrote:
I don't even understand what he means when he says reparations. What does someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates mean when he says that he wants reparations?
In other words, I am trying to get a hold of what any person wants when they say they want reparations. What exactly do they want? A check mailed to every person who identifies as black? There is a West Wing episode about this very subject. No one expects reparations, they want to start a discussion about a history of exploitation in the US and what the true “price” of it is. We're all forced to go over it in school in grueling detail multiple times. I think we all get it. Black people had a shitty time a while ago and people are still kinda racist. I have grown less sympathetic because of how drawn out this whole thing is. Here is the real question, why would anyone living with oppression, racism and other issues stemming from the history slavery care if you are tired of hearing about it? Compare your annoyance with it being “dragged out” to their struggles is living with it. In short, they are also annoyed its been so dragged out. But not talking about it because it annoys you isn’t really a solution.
A lot of it probably comes down to rich Oregon neighborhood (my situation) vs the bible belt. The only real issue black people have up here is that there aren't many of them and a lot of people feel worried they will accidentally be racist because they don't know what they're doing. But I understand the south to be a different story. If anything, we probably end up accidentally making black people uncomfortable by trying so hard to not seem racist <_< >_>
|
On January 22 2016 00:42 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 00:30 Deathstar wrote:
Medicare for all will do much more to help black people than a monthly check to black people. And neither have a chance of happening under Hillary or Republican. This seems like massive overreach. Hitting Bernie on this is ridiculous. And neither the Republicans nor Hillary advocated for it. There's no way Bernie could get it to happen either.
Its a stalemate the government will find themselves in regardless of which Democrat wins. I expect the Republicans to keep going full obstructionist against both Hillary (because Hillary) and Bernie (because socialist). The only way something gets done before congress changes is with a Republican president and I don't think (hope) that will happen.
|
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans."
|
On January 22 2016 00:42 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 00:30 Deathstar wrote:
Medicare for all will do much more to help black people than a monthly check to black people. And neither have a chance of happening under Hillary or Republican. This seems like massive overreach. Hitting Bernie on this is ridiculous. And neither the Republicans nor Hillary advocated for it. There's no way Bernie could get it to happen either.
Trump used to be in favour of universal health care in his book "The America we Deserve" from 2000. That would naturally include anybody regardless of race and gender.
I’m a conservative on most issues but a liberal on health. It is an unacceptable but accurate fact that the number of uninsured Americans has risen to 42 million. Working out detailed plans will take time. But the goal should be clear: Our people are our greatest asset. We must take care of our own. We must have universal healthcare.
Our objective [should be] to make reforms for the moment and, longer term, to find an equivalent of the single-payer plan that is affordable, well-administered, and provides freedom of choice. Possible? The good news is, yes. There is already a system in place-the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program-that can act as a guide for all healthcare reform. It operates through a centralized agency that offers considerable range of choice. While this is a government program, it is also very much market-based. It allows 620 private insurance companies to compete for this market. Once a year participants can choose from plans which vary in benefits and costs.
Did his stance on this change or did he not formulate a position on healthcare in the campaign for office so far?
|
On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans."
But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years.
Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.”
Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on.
|
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
|
United States44391 Posts
In fairness given the historical Irish opposition to birth control it is in their nature to be poor. Family planning is the foundation of economic self improvement in a non agrarian context. I mean obviously the attempted genocide by the English didn't help matters but there was a larger gap between that and late 19th C racism against the Irish than there is between the end of slavery and the present day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
