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On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on.
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations.
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On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed.
It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run.
And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens.
On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations.
Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion.
If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix.
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I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Not to mention that only 5% or so of "white people" actually owned slaves, and that it was a terrible institution for the other "whites". And that Western world actually ended slavism all over the world (Muslims slavism was far longer and brutal; ever wonder why there are no black people in the middle east? hint: they castrated their slaves)
Guilt culture has to stop.
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On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix.
But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players.
All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies.
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Whites are not “guilty”. I don’t feel guilty about slavery, but I accept that I benefit from the culture it created. That doesn’t make me bad, evil or diminish my accomplishments. If you feel like the discussion about the unpaid cost of slavery is trying to guilty you, that is mostly you. You can stop guilty culture by not feeling guilty.
The US as a nation and the businesses that built their foundation on the backs of slavery and the slave trade are. Its not about a specific person getting a check due to their race. Its acknowledging and discussion the exact cost of the success on the backs of people who had no choice. And the culture of oppression that created after slavery ended.
No one expects a check. They want to have a discussion.
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On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations.
I don't think that many people can reasonably argue against the idea that stereotypical "urban/black culture" has problems within itself that lead towards the difficulties and disparities that black people suffer. This manifests in things like a distrust for "the man" or "the system" that sometimes borders on paranoia, a lack of value for education, a lack of family structure, etc.
The problem is how do you just blame black people for this? You surely can't blame a black person for growing up in it and becoming part of it if you want to be taken seriously as an individual that embraces science or even basic logic, and the very disparities that they then face are the things that keep them from leaving it; an unfair justice system, lack of access to quality education, economic disadvantages, etc.
Whites are not “guilty”. I don’t feel guilty about slavery, but I accept that I benefit from the culture it created. That doesn’t make me bad, evil or diminish my accomplishments. If you feel like the discussion about the unpaid cost of slavery is trying to guilty you, that is mostly you. You can stop guilty culture by not feeling guilty.
The US as a nation and the businesses that built their foundation on the backs of slavery and the slave trade are. Its not about a specific person getting a check due to their race. Its acknowledging and discussion the exact cost of the success on the backs of people who had no choice. And the culture of oppression that created after slavery ended.
No one expects a check. They want to have a discussion.
I don't think discussing reparations makes for a good discussion at all because 1) plenty of people DO expect a check, 2) it then turns off a whole lot of people from discussing the real issue, and 3) it would be pretty ineffective. There are much better uses for that money than just cutting every black person in the country what would end up being a rather small check.
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On January 22 2016 02:29 GoTuNk! wrote:
I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
Guilt culture has to stop.
You know that racism involves making value judgements based racial distinctions right? and that merely acknowledging race isn't racist?
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Hurt is a severe understatement, try their great grandparents dehumanized the great grand parents of black people. Not only did they dehumanize them, they derived immense economic gain on the back of these slave laborers. Whites going farther back are also responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, again to seize land and cheap slave labor. We aren't responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, but we are responsible for acknowledging how awful our ancestors behaved at the bare minimum. I would argue that we should attempt to right the situation in some way, instead of just saying "tough shit".
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On January 22 2016 02:32 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix. But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players. All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies.
On January 22 2016 02:32 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix. But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players. All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies.
I don't think anyone expects the discussion to be simple or not have nuance.
Most of the people I talk to are not looking for quotas or just more hires. They are looking for improving hiring practices, actively seeking out referrals and resumes from minorities from broader networks. One CEO for a tech company said he only receive 15% resumes from women for almost all jobs, regardless requirements. This included HR and support staff positions. Because of that he tasked his HR department to find out why they were getting so few resumes from women. They found it was due to where they placed ads for hiring and their staffing agencies.
The knee jerk reaction to all of this stuff is defensiveness and claiming that it isn’t a problem and or its something no one can fix. But if folks listen to people who are involved with the problem, they want to address the issues.
Its like the Academy Awards and the lack of black anyone being nominated. The main response has been “Not a problem, nothing minorities made worth being nominated”. But this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Academy Awards, because they are not based on merit and never have been. And the issue is being addressed by the Academy. Their CEO said they are not happy with the make up of the Academy of motion pictures and want more minorities to join.
http://www.bustle.com/articles/136866-academy-awards-ceo-dawn-hudson-explains-how-hollywood-can-fix-its-diversity-issue
But if you talk about it, people just get mad and claim that the Oscars have a problem with race, even when the Oscars straight up admitted they do.
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On January 22 2016 02:48 Sandvich wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:29 GoTuNk! wrote:
I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
Guilt culture has to stop. You know that racism involves making value judgements based racial distinctions right? and that merely acknowledging race isn't racist? Yes, exactly. Saying someone is black is not racist. Saying they are entlited to payment for being black, it is. Show nested quote +
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Hurt is a severe understatement, try their great grandparents dehumanized the great grand parents of black people. Not only did they dehumanize them, they derived immense economic gain on the back of these slave laborers. Whites going farther back are also responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, again to seize land and cheap slave labor. We aren't responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, but we are responsible for acknowledging how awful our ancestors behaved at the bare minimum. I would argue that we should attempt to right the situation in some way, instead of just saying "tough shit".
If you feel guilty about something, or want to make amendments, feel free to donate your own money to charity.
Advocating that the state should take away from people because of their ethnicity ("Whites") and give it to other groups (Blacks, Natives) is another thing entirely.
I tought people were responsible for their own actions as individuals, but I guess collectivists like you believe in group responsibility and heritage-responsability.
If we can make this ridiculous generalizations and group shaming when refering to white people, shouldn't we doing the same about Muslim Inmigrants? Or do we use different criteria for Whites and Muslims?
My answer is NO, individuals are responsible for their actions. What is yours?
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White people didn't cause the genocide of native americans. The unequal distribution of domesticatable animals in the world caused the genocide of native Americans. Sure we teared them like less then human in almost all our dealings with them. But no one understood how plagues worked back then and by the time anyone would have gotten information about the depopulation of the continent it would have been too late.
That being said slavery wasn't just a white/black thing. Silver mines in south America was a genuine genocide as well as all that japan did in its colonial age. That slavery wasn't ended properly was the mistake made. The south lost a ton of its capital investments with the civil war and the North was exhausted from demobilization. Flooding the country with untrained labor at that time caused the formation of the ghettos and the problems we have today with racial inequality.
I feel like this may be taken like I'm a racist but I'm going to post and hope people don't take it like that. White people are at fault for black people being disproportionately economical disadvantaged but I regent that it's beacuse of racism that it happened.
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United States43970 Posts
On January 22 2016 02:48 Sandvich wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:29 GoTuNk! wrote:
I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
Guilt culture has to stop. You know that racism involves making value judgements based racial distinctions right? and that merely acknowledging race isn't racist? Show nested quote +
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Hurt is a severe understatement, try their great grandparents dehumanized the great grand parents of black people. Not only did they dehumanize them, they derived immense economic gain on the back of these slave laborers. Whites going farther back are also responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, again to seize land and cheap slave labor. We aren't responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, but we are responsible for acknowledging how awful our ancestors behaved at the bare minimum. I would argue that we should attempt to right the situation in some way, instead of just saying "tough shit".
I've been in the US for two years. Would I be paying reparations?
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On January 22 2016 03:01 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:48 Sandvich wrote:On January 22 2016 02:29 GoTuNk! wrote:
I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
Guilt culture has to stop. You know that racism involves making value judgements based racial distinctions right? and that merely acknowledging race isn't racist? Yes, exactly. Saying someone is black is not racist. Saying they are entlited to payment for being black, it is.
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Hurt is a severe understatement, try their great grandparents dehumanized the great grand parents of black people. Not only did they dehumanize them, they derived immense economic gain on the back of these slave laborers. Whites going farther back are also responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, again to seize land and cheap slave labor. We aren't responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, but we are responsible for acknowledging how awful our ancestors behaved at the bare minimum. I would argue that we should attempt to right the situation in some way, instead of just saying "tough shit". If you feel guilty about something, or want to make amendments, feel free to donate your own money to charity. Advocating that the state should take away from people because of their ethnicity ("Whites") and give it to other groups (Blacks, Natives) is another thing entirely. I tought people were responsible for their own actions as individuals, but I guess collectivists like you believe in group responsibility and heritage-responsability. If we can make this ridiculous generalizations and group shaming when refering to white people, shouldn't we doing the same about Muslim Inmigrants? Or do we use different criteria for Whites and Muslims? My answer is NO, individuals are responsible for their actions. What is yours?
You do realize that any efforts to assign disenfranchised minority groups like Native Americas are paid for by everyone. Not just whites. Collectively we all pay to assist. Just like we assist the elderly and the poor. We are not talking about taking land away. You seem confused or maybe you are arguing against points no one made.
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On January 22 2016 02:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:32 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix. But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players. All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies. Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:32 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix. But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players. All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies. I don't think anyone expects the discussion to be simple or not have nuance. Most of the people I talk to are not looking for quotas or just more hires. They are looking for improving hiring practices, actively seeking out referrals and resumes from minorities from broader networks. One CEO for a tech company said he only receive 15% resumes from women for almost all jobs, regardless requirements. This included HR and support staff positions. Because of that he tasked his HR department to find out why they were getting so few resumes from women. They found it was due to where they placed ads for hiring and their staffing agencies. The knee jerk reaction to all of this stuff is defensiveness and claiming that it isn’t a problem and or its something no one can fix. But if folks listen to people who are involved with the problem, they want to address the issues. Its like the Academy Awards and the lack of black anyone being nominated. The main response has been “Not a problem, nothing minorities made worth being nominated”. But this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Academy Awards, because they are not based on merit and never have been. And the issue is being addressed by the Academy. Their CEO said they are not happy with the make up of the Academy of motion pictures and want more minorities to join. http://www.bustle.com/articles/136866-academy-awards-ceo-dawn-hudson-explains-how-hollywood-can-fix-its-diversity-issueBut if you talk about it, people just get mad and claim that the Oscars have a problem with race, even when the Oscars straight up admitted they do.
Wow, my post was so good you quoted it twice  I deliberately used the NFL because its something I am familiar with and they have one of those hiring outreach programs you talked about.
And, my counterpoints would be that A) I actually think a lot of the advocates are in favor of quotas, or +200 point curves on the SATs, and things of that nature. And IMO that suspicion is justified by what we have seen at nearly every public university (which are dominated by advocates of this sort) who constantly try newer and more opaque strategies to get their racial makeup to a desired ratio; B) I also think the NFL is a perfect example of these same groups never being satisfied, just look at the New York Times piece on exactly what I am talking about; and C) While that is a nice story about hiring practices inadvertently changing the hiring pool, its mostly anecdotal, like the anecdotal stories I've heard of law firms floating "competitive" offers to top-tier minority candidates and being straight up laughed at because there is a gigantic markup on their services exiting law school. The reality is that as you progress up the educational attainment ladder there are fewer and fewer (non-Asian) minority candidates that are qualified for a position and that a huge % of that problem is observable before schooling even begins, and is basically calcified before High School even begins.
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On January 22 2016 03:01 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:48 Sandvich wrote:On January 22 2016 02:29 GoTuNk! wrote:
I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
Guilt culture has to stop. You know that racism involves making value judgements based racial distinctions right? and that merely acknowledging race isn't racist? Yes, exactly. Saying someone is black is not racist. Saying they are entlited to payment for being black, it is.
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Hurt is a severe understatement, try their great grandparents dehumanized the great grand parents of black people. Not only did they dehumanize them, they derived immense economic gain on the back of these slave laborers. Whites going farther back are also responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, again to seize land and cheap slave labor. We aren't responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, but we are responsible for acknowledging how awful our ancestors behaved at the bare minimum. I would argue that we should attempt to right the situation in some way, instead of just saying "tough shit". I tought people were responsible for their own actions as individuals, but I guess collectivists like you believe in group responsibility and heritage-responsability.
Sure. Except that we, as a society (not saying "whites" specifically, just society and those in charge of society collectively), played a huge part in the current general black community economic status. It's simply not fair to say "ah well, better start taking responsibility for where you are" without also acknowledging why they are where they are.
Something I learned/realized recently was that upon returning home from WW2, black veterans were not privy to the same societal assistance that white veterans were. They couldn't use GI funding to further their education, they were basically left behind despite fighting for the country. This was a huge assistance program that helped white Americans gain wealth and further their "status".
I'm not well enough educated on the subject to know all of the specifics, and I'm sure there's a lot more to it than what I said above. And yes, that was some time ago, but not really that long ago. There are people alive who directly experienced this.
Reparations as a concept, while something I've not really put much thought into, seem to me to be a band-aid over a chronic, systemic wound.
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United States43970 Posts
On January 22 2016 03:07 Sermokala wrote:
White people didn't cause the genocide of native americans. The unequal distribution of domesticatable animals in the world caused the genocide of native Americans. Sure we teared them like less then human in almost all our dealings with them. But no one understood how plagues worked back then and by the time anyone would have gotten information about the depopulation of the continent it would have been too late.
That being said slavery wasn't just a white/black thing. Silver mines in south America was a genuine genocide as well as all that japan did in its colonial age. That slavery wasn't ended properly was the mistake made. The south lost a ton of its capital investments with the civil war and the North was exhausted from demobilization. Flooding the country with untrained labor at that time caused the formation of the ghettos and the problems we have today with racial inequality.
I feel like this may be taken like I'm a racist but I'm going to post and hope people don't take it like that. White people are at fault for black people being disproportionately economical disadvantaged but I regent that it's beacuse of racism that it happened.
I feel it's a little more complicated than that. Intergenerational prejudice, mistreatment and betrayal by the system created an underclass was unable to invisibly integrate itself back into society. Society gives us a number of basic assumptions about the game we play. The police are here to protect us, the system is basically just, doctors want to care for us, employers want to hire qualified people, a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, and so forth. The problem comes when for a century after emancipation these assumptions about society are proven repeatedly untrue for the African American population. Doctors have performed unethical experiments on them against their will, the legal system has committed countless injustices, police to this day are shown to disproportionately target the black community, their concerns aren't voiced by the politicians and an education from a broken school system will rarely get you out of the ghetto. And unlike other groups such as Irish or Catholics, they were unable to slip unnoticed into the privileged class, they were easily identifiable.
I think that the black/thug counterculture is bad and dumb and only serves to hinder African Americans from integrating into the majority "white" American culture which I view as superior. However at the same time I absolutely recognize that the origins of the counter culture lie in generations of the rejection of African Americans from that culture and a billion separate betrayals. People do not exist in a vacuum.
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If you feel guilty about something, or want to make amendments, feel free to donate your own money to charity.
Advocating that the state should take away from people because of their ethnicity ("Whites") and give it to other groups (Blacks, Natives) is another thing entirely.
Well it would end up being tax payer money, which people of all races pay. Do you feel similarly about war reparations?
I tought people were responsible for their own actions as individuals, but I guess collectivists like you believe in group responsibility and heritage-responsability.
If we can make this ridiculous generalizations and group shaming when refering to white people, shouldn't we doing the same about Muslim Inmigrants? Or do we use different criteria for Whites and Muslims?
This is the US politics thread, so discussions on Muslims nations making reparations to other ME or Asian countries is irrevelevant. What is relevant to this US politics thread is the legacy of white Americans oppressing other races, and the economic benefits they derived from this oppression. If the government sanctioned and aided in this oppression, shouldn't the US be held responsible for its actions?
On January 22 2016 03:10 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:48 Sandvich wrote:On January 22 2016 02:29 GoTuNk! wrote:
I find the notion that anyone is entlited to reparations, because he belongs to a certain ethnic group, ridiculous and racist in every sense.
Guilt culture has to stop. You know that racism involves making value judgements based racial distinctions right? and that merely acknowledging race isn't racist?
What are "whites" guilty of exactly? That their great great grampas might have hurt great great grampas of other black people?. Are we responsible now for the crimes of our ancestors?
Hurt is a severe understatement, try their great grandparents dehumanized the great grand parents of black people. Not only did they dehumanize them, they derived immense economic gain on the back of these slave laborers. Whites going farther back are also responsible for the genocide of Native Americans, again to seize land and cheap slave labor. We aren't responsible for the crimes of our ancestors, but we are responsible for acknowledging how awful our ancestors behaved at the bare minimum. I would argue that we should attempt to right the situation in some way, instead of just saying "tough shit". I've been in the US for two years. Would I be paying reparations?
Through taxes I would imagine.
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On January 22 2016 03:19 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 02:51 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 02:32 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix. But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players. All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies. On January 22 2016 02:32 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:00 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:48 Deathstar wrote:
For profit prison system arose because states couldn't afford to jail all the drug users and traffickers. It's not designed to target blacks it's came about because of the drug war. For profit prisons save the state money.
Many of our companies are international, so the racial breakdown will change substantially. CEO of coca cola is Turkish and ceo of gm is a woman. Yes currently there is majority white male in the US but that will definitely change within the coming decades (whether they will be black is another question).
And whether you like to admit or not, culture is very important. It's the difference between people from Spain and Germany.
The for profit prison system has destroyed the justice system and is a joke. It was a band aid and to a larger problem with the way states collect taxes and bad laws to be “tough on crime”. We have the highest incarnation rate in the entire world and one of the highest levels of returning offenders as well. Many of our court systems have created defecto debtors prisons where we jail people due to being unable to pay fines. And then we fine them for being jailed. It’s a joke. Prisons and jails should be a write off for a civil society, not a for profit system to benefit private citizens who think of the best way to fill up the prisons they run. And just because "you know" it is going to change in the next decade does not mean anyone are going to sit back and wait for it to happen. That is the opposite of how change happens. On January 22 2016 01:59 Mohdoo wrote:On January 22 2016 01:21 Plansix wrote:On January 22 2016 01:11 Deathstar wrote:
Many house and Senate seats are up for grabs. It can swing things to a democratic control.
Also, notion of reparations in 2016 is disturbing. Black people have been the beneficiary of many programs throughout the decades, such as affirmative action. In theory it's designed so that black people will bring their knowledge back to their community. With the case of doctors, the opposite happens in which black doctors gtfo from their shit neighborhood to a upper class neighborhood.
My point is that black people life style will fall down into economic lines. Black people with good credentials will live a good life. This is a complicated issue with many components to it such as culture that cannot be explained away with "black people currently struggle under oppression and racism because of evil Americans." But then we have the for profit prison system, mandatory minimums. 3 strikes, the overwhelming number of CEO and higher level positions filled by white males and congress itself. No one is saying quotas are the solution, but lets not kid ourselves. There isn’t going to be a massive rise of black CEOs in the next 10 years. Racism isn’t over. You can’t just wash your hands and say “Its black culture” when poverty is a huge part of that. That is the same excuse people in the UK used to say why the Irish were so poor, which history showed otherwise. Is the same excuse the party in power always uses. “Its their nature to be poor and repressed, they need to change it to be more like me. I can’t help them with that.” Its fine if you don’t give a shit. That’s cool. But just say “I can’t be bothered” and move on. The problem I have with this line of thinking is that it doesn't allow for there to actually be times when a population has qualities that work against their prosperity. There are of course a plethora of documented reasons why black culture has been made worse by slavery and millions of other things. But once that culture has been seeded, it does continue to be an issue. It feels like you advocate for zero blame for black populations. Here is the thing, if I felt that there were problems in Japanese culture, some white dude form the US telling them they exist isn’t going to do shit. And I could be wrong too. Same with German culture or any culture. And I am sure blacks could point out plenty of “problems” with whites and their “culture” too. But that doesn’t make it a super productive discussion. If there are problems in a culture, the people in the culture are likely far more aware of them than an outsider. Just because the outsider doesn’t see the efforts to change them does not mean they are not happening. You pointing it out and "blaming them" is just going to lead to them reminding you that stones and glasses houses don't mix. But the point is that if you don't know what the fundamental differences are you can't begin to look at what the fair distribution is in society. Take something I think is easier to discuss: The NFL. The NFL is 70% black players, but only 15% black head coaches (they are about 12% of the total population). Some say this indicates that the NFL has a long way to go in achieving diversity, but that is only true if being an NFL head coach and being an NFL player are both jobs derived from similar skillsets and natural talents. I would say there is only a tenuous connection between those two things, and that often being physically skilled in a sport can acutally limit your intellectual curiosity. Thus, I would say it makes sense that coaches are more closely related to the population at large than the population of NFL players. All that nonsense boils down to: you have to know these things to even start to make a judgment of where justice lies. I don't think anyone expects the discussion to be simple or not have nuance. Most of the people I talk to are not looking for quotas or just more hires. They are looking for improving hiring practices, actively seeking out referrals and resumes from minorities from broader networks. One CEO for a tech company said he only receive 15% resumes from women for almost all jobs, regardless requirements. This included HR and support staff positions. Because of that he tasked his HR department to find out why they were getting so few resumes from women. They found it was due to where they placed ads for hiring and their staffing agencies. The knee jerk reaction to all of this stuff is defensiveness and claiming that it isn’t a problem and or its something no one can fix. But if folks listen to people who are involved with the problem, they want to address the issues. Its like the Academy Awards and the lack of black anyone being nominated. The main response has been “Not a problem, nothing minorities made worth being nominated”. But this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the Academy Awards, because they are not based on merit and never have been. And the issue is being addressed by the Academy. Their CEO said they are not happy with the make up of the Academy of motion pictures and want more minorities to join. http://www.bustle.com/articles/136866-academy-awards-ceo-dawn-hudson-explains-how-hollywood-can-fix-its-diversity-issueBut if you talk about it, people just get mad and claim that the Oscars have a problem with race, even when the Oscars straight up admitted they do. Wow, my post was so good you quoted it twice I deliberately used the NFL because its something I am familiar with and they have one of those hiring outreach programs you talked about. And, my counterpoints would be that A) I actually think a lot of the advocates are in favor of quotas, or +200 point curves on the SATs, and things of that nature. And IMO that suspicion is justified by what we have seen at nearly every public university (which are dominated by advocates of this sort) who constantly try newer and more opaque strategies to get their racial makeup to a desired ratio; B) I also think the NFL is a perfect example of these same groups never being satisfied, just look at the New York Times piece on exactly what I am talking about; and C) While that is a nice story about hiring practices inadvertently changing the hiring pool, its mostly anecdotal, like the anecdotal stories I've heard of law firms floating "competitive" offers to top-tier minority candidates and being straight up laughed at because there is a gigantic markup on their services exiting law school. The reality is that as you progress up the educational attainment ladder there are fewer and fewer (non-Asian) minority candidates that are qualified for a position and that a huge % of that problem is observable before schooling even begins, and is basically calcified before High School even begins.
Damn phone posting. I do agree that a lot of the “demands” or “solutions” that people put forward are not viable. But that is true for many problems. The main problem I see is that people not only say the solutions are not viable, but also deny the issue exists. The better solution is the one you and I are discussing, which is to agree the issue exists and then point to the true cause of the problem.
The Daily Show talked about the same problem. Its not that they were against hiring black comedians, its that they were not receiving tapes from black comedians. And the root problem was they were working almost exclusively with agents and black comedians have a hard time getting an agent. But they were under the impression that black comedians didn’t want to be on the Daily Show.
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Who does "we" apply to? Does we apply to Kwark? Does we apply to people who didn't have family here during slavery? What about families who never even lived in the South?
"We play a large part in current general black economic status" lol please.
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On January 22 2016 03:29 Deathstar wrote:
Who does "we" apply to? Does we apply to Kwark? Does we apply to people who didn't have family here during slavery? What about families who never even lived in the South?
"We play a large part in current general black economic status" lol please.
My family did not come to this country until well after civil war, but I am part of that “we”. We, the United States and its citizens, collectively. The nation as a whole. None of this happened in a vacuum.
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EPT
