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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2267

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 00:08:37
September 05 2015 00:05 GMT
#45321
I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

She thought one thing, and acted accordingly. Then she changed her mind and began to act, to her, accordingly.

Her current position isn't very smart, but it's not contradictory.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 00:56:09
September 05 2015 00:54 GMT
#45322
Someone is already starting a narrative to use as an excuse to get one self out of jail...

After spending the night in jail, Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis tells her lawyers, "All is well," adding that she slept well. She also says she is prepared to stay in jail. And her legal team says the marriage licenses that were issued by the clerk's office today are invalid.

"She has a clean conscience, even though she's incarcerated behind these bars," attorney Mat Staver said Friday afternoon.

Davis was found in contempt of court and jailed Thursday; since then, several same-sex couples have received marriage licenses from her office. As Eyder reported Friday morning, those who can now marry include James Yates and William Smith, who had sought a license five times.

As for Davis' future, Staver said, "she will remain the clerk of Rowan County as long as the people" want her to.

The attorney also reiterated that Davis "cannot affix her name or her title, under her authority, to a marriage license. ... That is for Kim Davis a heaven or hell decision."

In her absence, deputy clerks in the Rowan County clerk's office have been issuing marriage licenses in a businesslike manner, Eyder says, a marked contrast to the celebrations, rallies and protests that have been going on outside this week.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
September 05 2015 01:04 GMT
#45323
On September 05 2015 09:05 Belisarius wrote:
I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

She thought one thing, and acted accordingly. Then she changed her mind and began to act, to her, accordingly.

Her current position isn't very smart, but it's not contradictory.


I don't think the memes are solely pointing out her hypocrisy, as such, but also pointing out how much of an idiot she is to believe the tripe she believes. If you want you could take the memes to be pointing out the hypocrisy of religion more generally, rather than simply that which she alone is responsible for.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
September 05 2015 01:04 GMT
#45324
Lol she is in jail and trying to control power of the licenses? Like anyone will take it seriously if she claims they are void.
Never Knows Best.
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
September 05 2015 01:18 GMT
#45325
Trump beats both Hilary and Bernie head to head according to this poll that came out today. YES!!!!

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252825-poll-trump-beats-hillary-head-to-head

Trump 2016!
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45703 Posts
September 05 2015 01:30 GMT
#45326
On September 05 2015 09:54 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Someone is already starting a narrative to use as an excuse to get one self out of jail...

Show nested quote +
After spending the night in jail, Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis tells her lawyers, "All is well," adding that she slept well. She also says she is prepared to stay in jail. And her legal team says the marriage licenses that were issued by the clerk's office today are invalid.

"She has a clean conscience, even though she's incarcerated behind these bars," attorney Mat Staver said Friday afternoon.

Davis was found in contempt of court and jailed Thursday; since then, several same-sex couples have received marriage licenses from her office. As Eyder reported Friday morning, those who can now marry include James Yates and William Smith, who had sought a license five times.

As for Davis' future, Staver said, "she will remain the clerk of Rowan County as long as the people" want her to.

The attorney also reiterated that Davis "cannot affix her name or her title, under her authority, to a marriage license. ... That is for Kim Davis a heaven or hell decision."

In her absence, deputy clerks in the Rowan County clerk's office have been issuing marriage licenses in a businesslike manner, Eyder says, a marked contrast to the celebrations, rallies and protests that have been going on outside this week.


Source


I'm trying my best to appeal to Hanlon's Razor, but at some point I feel like I'm going to eventually give in and consider that hateful bigot to be a bad person, rather than merely a stupid one.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45703 Posts
September 05 2015 01:32 GMT
#45327
On September 05 2015 10:18 Eskendereya wrote:
Trump beats both Hilary and Bernie head to head according to this poll that came out today. YES!!!!

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252825-poll-trump-beats-hillary-head-to-head

Trump 2016!


It's all pretty much within the margin of error though, not to mention the fact that there's still a lot of time before the elections.

And do you actually want Trump to win the presidency?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 01:37:09
September 05 2015 01:35 GMT
#45328
If only the polls had any relevance to the primary 8 months from now.

On September 05 2015 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2015 10:18 Eskendereya wrote:
Trump beats both Hilary and Bernie head to head according to this poll that came out today. YES!!!!

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252825-poll-trump-beats-hillary-head-to-head

Trump 2016!


It's all pretty much within the margin of error though, not to mention the fact that there's still a lot of time before the elections.

And do you actually want Trump to win the presidency?


Check post history.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45703 Posts
September 05 2015 01:39 GMT
#45329
On September 05 2015 10:35 Plansix wrote:
If only the polls had any relevance to the primary 8 months from now.

Show nested quote +
On September 05 2015 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On September 05 2015 10:18 Eskendereya wrote:
Trump beats both Hilary and Bernie head to head according to this poll that came out today. YES!!!!

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252825-poll-trump-beats-hillary-head-to-head

Trump 2016!


It's all pretty much within the margin of error though, not to mention the fact that there's still a lot of time before the elections.

And do you actually want Trump to win the presidency?


Check post history.




"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 05 2015 01:41 GMT
#45330
Yeah, the candidate endorsed by several U.S. White supremacist has supporters everywhere.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 01:55:37
September 05 2015 01:49 GMT
#45331
On September 05 2015 10:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2015 10:18 Eskendereya wrote:
Trump beats both Hilary and Bernie head to head according to this poll that came out today. YES!!!!

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/252825-poll-trump-beats-hillary-head-to-head

Trump 2016!


It's all pretty much within the margin of error though, not to mention the fact that there's still a lot of time before the elections.

And do you actually want Trump to win the presidency?


True, and if you've been following from the start, Trump was well behind when he first started out and now he's ahead and his support is only growing. It's his election to lose at this point. The only good alternative to Trump is Carson who I'm hoping will be Trump's VP when Trump wins. Ted Cruz is my 3rd choice. The Democrats have no one good for the country running and I can't remember the last time they did though neither have the establishment Republicans.
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 01:51:49
September 05 2015 01:50 GMT
#45332
Trumps "support" is more a symptom of people telling the establishment to fuck off. Its very low stakes when its so far away from the actual elections. Very few would actually vote for him lol. The potential reality of President Trump would terrify too many people.
Never Knows Best.
Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 01:54:55
September 05 2015 01:53 GMT
#45333
On September 05 2015 10:41 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, the candidate endorsed by several U.S. White supremacist has supporters everywhere.


Typical leftist using "race" to try and win arguments they can't win with logic or facts.

I could play your little twisted racist game too. The Black Panther Party was pro Obama and they even tried to use intimidation at the polls to get their way. In fact, %90 of Blacks voted for Obama and I'm sure every racist Black voted for Obama as well. All the pro-Black groups voted for Obama.

Eskendereya
Profile Joined August 2015
United States97 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 01:56:21
September 05 2015 01:54 GMT
#45334
On September 05 2015 10:50 Slaughter wrote:
Trumps "support" is more a symptom of people telling the establishment to fuck off. Its very low stakes when its so far away from the actual elections. Very few would actually vote for him lol. The potential reality of President Trump would terrify too many people.


Trump is clearly not a fluke, all the people who predicted his support would be gone by now have been proven wrong. His support is only growing, it's his election to lose. Your opinion is a prediction that no one will end up voting for him, we'll see.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 05 2015 01:56 GMT
#45335
The people at Trumps rallies terrify me more. But we are early in the primary death match. There is a good chance trump won't get nominated, run as a third party and duck the election for republicans.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 05 2015 01:58 GMT
#45336
The extent to which our international obligations interact with — and may sometimes override — domestic law is a pretty fascinating one, and is, for any number of pretty obvious reasons, increasingly in the news. Here’s a rather small footnote to the very large controversy over the Trans-Pacific Partnership treaty, involving a narrow (but actually quite important) bit of U.S. copyright law, that nicely illustrates how complicated these questions can be — a synecdoche, as it were.

The copyright issue relates to so-called “orphan works.” As a consequence of many factors — the absurdly long term of copyright protection [life of the author plus 70 years — see my comments here on the liberation of Sherlock Holmes, after a lo-o-ong time, from his copyright shackles], along with the elimination of copyright notice, or copyright registration, requirements as preconditions for copyright protection — there are literally millions upon millions of works — books, letters, songs, articles, poems . . . — created in the ’30s, ’40s, or ’50s that are (a) still protected by copyright, and for which (b) it is virtually impossible to ascertain who owns the copyright, or even whether the copyright is still in force. Consider this scenario:

Alice Johnson publishes a book of poems in 1930. It languishes, unsold, and largely vanishes from sight. You would like to reprint it. To know whether you need permission to do that, you have to locate the author. If she has died, you have to find out when — if it was 1933, you’re in the clear; if it was 1993, not so much. If she has died, you have to find her heirs, because copyright passes as personal property at death. Possibly all of her heirs, because they may well have taken title to the copyright, upon Alice’s death, as joint owners. And if any of them has died, you’ll need to round up their heirs. And so on.

How do you do it? The answer is: You don’t, because you can’t. It is, by any reasonable definition of the term, impossible.

That’s an orphan work.

Who cares, you ask? It’s a fair question. After all, you could (and probably would) just go ahead and reprint the book — what are the odds that someone will come out of the woodwork and accuse you of copyright infringement?! You’re more likely to be struck by lightning. Twice.

And even if someone does sue you — what are his or her damages?! For an out-of-print book that nobody has bought for 70 years or so?

It looks like you have something like a 0.0004 percent chance of being sued, and, even if you are, a damage award likely to equal about $0.03 — even your lawyer will let you take that risk, no?

Well, actually — no. Big problem #1 is that copyright law doesn’t require the plaintiff to show any damage whatsoever. And it authorizes awards of up to $150,000 in “statutory damages” for each work that is infringed — independent of any damage assessment. [And it authorizes the prevailing party in an infringement suit to recover his/her attorney’s fees.] Substituting $150,000+ for $0.03 changes the risk equation quite a bit.

And big problem #2 is that nothing is more likely to guarantee that Alice’s heirs will emerge from the woodwork, brandishing their copyright registrations, than the scent of money. So if by some chance you are actually successful with your reprint, you materially raise the odds of getting sued. 0.25 times $150,000 looks a lot different than 0.00004 times $0.03.

And if you’re still wondering “Is this really such a big deal?,” multiply it all by 10 million (or more). Remember Google Books? I don’t know about you, but I was pretty excited by the thought that every book ever published was going to be available to me over the Net — with all the lousy news out there, that sure sounded like a good thing for the human race, no? Well, the Google Books project foundered largely because of the orphan works problem. Even Google is not willing to take on $100 billion or so of potential exposure to infringement claims, and its attempts to reach a settlement that would have waived the rights of “orphan works” copyright holders to get statutory damages was unavailing — on the grounds that no court can approve a settlement waiving the statutory rights of persons who are not only not present in the courtroom to weigh in on the settlement, but who haven’t even been notified — because, of course, nobody knows who they are — that there is a settlement.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
September 05 2015 02:56 GMT
#45337
The fact that polls don't even ask about head to heads for non-Trump candidates is probably way more important for Trump than any actual head to head numbers at this point. Pretty terrifying that pollsters want hits that much, honestly.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14107 Posts
September 05 2015 03:10 GMT
#45338
On September 05 2015 10:53 Eskendereya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2015 10:41 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, the candidate endorsed by several U.S. White supremacist has supporters everywhere.


Typical leftist using "race" to try and win arguments they can't win with logic or facts.

I could play your little twisted racist game too. The Black Panther Party was pro Obama and they even tried to use intimidation at the polls to get their way. In fact, %90 of Blacks voted for Obama and I'm sure every racist Black voted for Obama as well. All the pro-Black groups voted for Obama.


New black panther party. The old one kinda went down a domestic terrorist group and died out.

But in reality the difference is that the white ones want whites to go ahead more at the expense of other races where the minority ones at the least say they want equality with the races. see you can't really justify advancing your race when your in the lead.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 03:19:54
September 05 2015 03:11 GMT
#45339
On September 05 2015 02:34 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 17:05 Cowboy64 wrote:
On September 04 2015 03:19 Plansix wrote:
I find the entire analogy to be sort of silly since the main goal of violating the law was to start the discussion about gay marriage and work through the process in the court and political system. His intent was clear and the people who lived in the city supported it.

This case is a clear example of someone pushing against a solved ruled upon issue, like a Governor standing in-front of a public school with a fire ax.

I guess my analogy probably was flawed in some key ways, so let me try to dispense with analogies:

Kim Davis is unquestionably breaking the law in the name of activism. She is engaging in civil disobedience. I suppose my question would be this:

Are we okay with jailing everyone who engages in civil disobedience, or are we not? How do we decide which people it's okay to arrest and which people it isn't? I personally think it would be unjust to arrest a black woman in the 1950s for sitting at the front of a bus, even if it was in violation of the law. Obviously the law was unjust, so breaking it was not an act worthy of imprisonment.

But then I have to ask myself if it is only wrong to jail people for civil disobedience when I disagree with the law in question. It's unjust to jail the black man because segregation laws are wrong, but it's just to jail the county-clerk because legalizing homosexual marriage is right? I suppose that argument makes sense, and it's a valid position to take.

I guess I just hope that the government always agrees with me about what's the right and wrong kind of civil disobedience.

...

Her rights aren't infringed upon at all, thus her "civil disobedience" isn't okay. She has the right to believe whatever she wants to and to practice most of that as long as it's not infringing on other peoples rights.
If you believe her rights to religious freedom are infringed upon you'd also agree that a religious Hindu who refuses to eat meat from a cow, who made it into some city council is allowed to ban all restaurants/supermarkets who sell beef, just because he happens to think that's a sin. And surely you can't expect him to sign something that's part of that.
You'd also agree that a muslim who happens to think sharia law is the way to go should be allowed to enforce that in his city if he makes it far enough to the top because otherwise would infringe on his religious beliefs.

I doubt you'd agree with any of that?

...


I like the way you tried to address this, but lets go through the cases one by one. For the religious Hindu, if he really believes that meat from a cow is an abhorrent, immoral crime, then he should certainly not be forced to sign anything relating to the sale of that meat. I actually think that's perfectly fine; if the constituents elected him knowing this was one of his positions then that's fair game. The REST of the council can still pass any bills that need to be passed (most likely)

In the case of a Muslim, IF he is given de facto control over the entire government (which is an impossibility, there is always a city council), and he really has those beliefs and is somehow elected into office, well then yes its the will of the people and it is normal and democratic that Sharia should then be enforced. It may not be good in the long run but it is a democratically valid decision made by the majority.

I don't see any real contradictions with any of your proposals and what we would intuitively think of as 'good' governance.

I think the issue is simply this; the law supersedes any "natural law" as the judge put it, and it would be a scary precedent if it didn't. The county clerk must serve the law before natural law as part of her job description. Its not a 'right' when you agree on paper to waive that 'right' in order to do your duty as part of a member of the local government.

If there were no such requirement, then she would in theory be well within her rights not to provide those marriage licenses, because there is a conflict of equally important rights. So for example if someone walked up to an ultra-conservative pastor and asked for that pastor's blessing on their gay marriage, I don't think anyone has the 'right' to demand that the pastor do something that goes against any deeply held beliefs. People only have a right to what is securely granted to them by law.

As a side note, to what others have written, what people call 'bigotry' is also relative; you can't really use it as some arbitrary, objective moral standard to judge others on. Religious people literally think they're doing God's righteous work, I don't see that as bigotry, more just a sad testament to the power of a 2000+ year old book. True bigotry is something like racism in my eyes, and should not be a word that is flaunted about so casually.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-05 05:38:48
September 05 2015 05:37 GMT
#45340
On September 05 2015 11:56 TheTenthDoc wrote:
The fact that polls don't even ask about head to heads for non-Trump candidates is probably way more important for Trump than any actual head to head numbers at this point. Pretty terrifying that pollsters want hits that much, honestly.

It also makes it terrifying for the GOP that electability is pretty much a non-factor, which is what would normally shake some sense into the partisans and be a disqualifying barrier for Trump. They have to start worrying at some point that this is becoming a huge distraction away from the more realistic nominees, although it might still be okay since it is pretty clear the establishment picks aren't good national politicians, which in itself has to be troubling.

I do think it is fine as a sideshow for now, personally. It is arguable that the biggest loser from the Trump wave is Hillary Clinton. The GOP will be sweating profusely if Trump wins any primaries though.
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