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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 00:21 GMT
#32821
On February 13 2015 09:08 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't understand. Net neutrality legislation is a really good way to ensure more competition because it takes the power from ISP's away to favour big corporations that can pay for prioritization. It helps creating a diverse environment. So if you're all for free market solutions net neutrality is a good way to ensure that the playing field stays fair.

Breaking up ISP's themselves seems ridiculous. Providing internet infrastructure is so costly that it actually makes sense to have it done by big companies or the government, they just need regulations to not abuse their power.

Net neutrality is different from what I'm commenting on. Net neutrality doesn't address competition over internet access.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 13 2015 00:34 GMT
#32822
American companies have about $2 trillion in overseas accounts — money they could be using to hire workers and pay dividends in the United States. But they're reluctant to do so, in part because of the way the U.S. tax system works.

President Obama proposed some big changes in the tax code last month that would encourage U.S. companies to bring more money home. A lot of people in Washington agree with the goal. But there's sharp disagreement about how to accomplish it.

Last month, the European Union issued a report about Amazon and the taxes it pays. The online retailer does a lot of business in Europe but its corporate tax rate is in the single digits, says Crawford Spence of the University of Warwick in England.

"Amazon has big operations in the U.K. but they pay very little tax here, because most of their tax is paid in Luxembourg," he says.

And it's not alone. Big U.S. companies such as Starbucks and Apple have pared down their tax bill by funneling revenue into tax havens like Luxembourg and Ireland. Spence says it's totally legal.

"Currently the rules are very complicated, very convoluted, which suits companies very well, cause there are always loopholes," he says.

The rules proposed by Obama last month would change that. The president wants to lower the tax rate on overseas corporate revenue. But a 19 percent minimum tax would kick in if companies use too many loopholes and tax havens, says Edward Kleinbard of the University of Southern California law school.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 13 2015 00:47 GMT
#32823
On February 13 2015 09:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 09:08 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't understand. Net neutrality legislation is a really good way to ensure more competition because it takes the power from ISP's away to favour big corporations that can pay for prioritization. It helps creating a diverse environment. So if you're all for free market solutions net neutrality is a good way to ensure that the playing field stays fair.

Breaking up ISP's themselves seems ridiculous. Providing internet infrastructure is so costly that it actually makes sense to have it done by big companies or the government, they just need regulations to not abuse their power.

Net neutrality is different from what I'm commenting on. Net neutrality doesn't address competition over internet access.


Publicly owned lines and different service providers, similar to what Sprint has been doing on privately run lines for decades. Or just make the cables a public utility, since that is fucking obvious. THe lines themselves haven't been updated in decades, and for a fraction of a percent of our federal budget we could completely revamp the infrastructure to provide essentially limitless bandwidth for decades to come.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 00:51 GMT
#32824
On February 13 2015 09:47 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 09:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 13 2015 09:08 Nyxisto wrote:
I don't understand. Net neutrality legislation is a really good way to ensure more competition because it takes the power from ISP's away to favour big corporations that can pay for prioritization. It helps creating a diverse environment. So if you're all for free market solutions net neutrality is a good way to ensure that the playing field stays fair.

Breaking up ISP's themselves seems ridiculous. Providing internet infrastructure is so costly that it actually makes sense to have it done by big companies or the government, they just need regulations to not abuse their power.

Net neutrality is different from what I'm commenting on. Net neutrality doesn't address competition over internet access.


Publicly owned lines and different service providers, similar to what Sprint has been doing on privately run lines for decades. Or just make the cables a public utility, since that is fucking obvious. THe lines themselves haven't been updated in decades, and for a fraction of a percent of our federal budget we could completely revamp the infrastructure to provide essentially limitless bandwidth for decades to come.

What do you mean by 'public utility'?

For a fraction of the federal budget you could make me filthy rich.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 13 2015 01:06 GMT
#32825
I mean a publicly owned and run utility, like power in Nebraska.

I think it's harder to argue in favor of making jonny rich for the public good than it is to argue in favor of providing a state-of-the-art fiber optic cable network connecting all (99%) of American residents to the internet that would be the envy of the world. I'm surprised you would argue against the public benefits, considering that most of the business journals for the past decade have been talking about America's future in the Digital Economy.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 02:14 GMT
#32826
On February 13 2015 10:06 IgnE wrote:
I mean a publicly owned and run utility, like power in Nebraska.

I think it's harder to argue in favor of making jonny rich for the public good than it is to argue in favor of providing a state-of-the-art fiber optic cable network connecting all (99%) of American residents to the internet that would be the envy of the world. I'm surprised you would argue against the public benefits, considering that most of the business journals for the past decade have been talking about America's future in the Digital Economy.

Publicly owned and run is hardly an 'obvious' choice.

Fiber optic is pretty expensive. I don't think you're going to pull that off on the cheap.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
February 13 2015 02:23 GMT
#32827
there's no need to spend public money on something private industry is jumping to do, namely fiber. it's just pretty troublesome to lay networks in america because of the balkanized regulation
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Bigtony
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States1606 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-13 02:50:11
February 13 2015 02:46 GMT
#32828
Who is jumping to run fiber? Comcast is using old lines and charging more for less every year. The same is almost certainly true for every cable company in America.

Verizon and Google are laying cable incredibly slowly (and FIOS costs a fortune).

I can't imagine that a publicly owned network would have trouble with regulation? Other than the initial clusterfuck of actually making it happen.

Push 2 Harder
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 13 2015 02:53 GMT
#32829
On February 13 2015 11:23 oneofthem wrote:
there's no need to spend public money on something private industry is jumping to do, namely fiber. it's just pretty troublesome to lay networks in america because of the balkanized regulation


They aren't jumping to do it. Are you kidding? Time Warner and Comcast have barely upgraded the infrastructure in 30 years. And if they did do it, they would just use it as an excuse to jack up the prices and profits.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11519 Posts
February 13 2015 03:07 GMT
#32830
Well, and why would they upgrade anything. If you have a monopoly, there is no need to increase quality of service. In todays world, you need an internet connection. And if there is only one option, you have to buy what they offer you, for whatever price they demand.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 03:35 GMT
#32831
On February 13 2015 11:23 oneofthem wrote:
there's no need to spend public money on something private industry is jumping to do, namely fiber. it's just pretty troublesome to lay networks in america because of the balkanized regulation

Is there a big push on to lay fiber? Google fiber is pretty niche, and Verizon is tired of expanding FiOS. It feels like a pretty slow build-out, but I don't follow the industry closely, so let me know how you see it.

On February 13 2015 11:53 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 11:23 oneofthem wrote:
there's no need to spend public money on something private industry is jumping to do, namely fiber. it's just pretty troublesome to lay networks in america because of the balkanized regulation


They aren't jumping to do it. Are you kidding? Time Warner and Comcast have barely upgraded the infrastructure in 30 years. And if they did do it, they would just use it as an excuse to jack up the prices and profits.

Really? Quickly looking at Comcast's cash flow statement they spend more on investments in PPE than they earned in net income (source). Anecdotally I don't remember them offering broadband in the 1980's.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 13 2015 04:08 GMT
#32832
Lol jonny. You don't know what you are talking about. "Investments" on a spread sheet. Anecdotally I heard you haven't the faintest clue how broadband works or what infrastructure it requires but that you make stupid comments based on an "investments" column.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 04:16 GMT
#32833
On February 13 2015 13:08 IgnE wrote:
Lol jonny. You don't know what you are talking about. "Investments" on a spread sheet. Anecdotally I heard you haven't the faintest clue how broadband works or what infrastructure it requires but that you make stupid comments based on an "investments" column.

Prove it or shut up.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 13 2015 04:40 GMT
#32834
The GOP-controlled Senate is looking a lot like last year’s Democratic Senate: failed procedural votes, short and fruitless workweeks and prolonged periods of inactivity on the floor.

The reason: The stubborn impasse on Homeland Security funding has sapped the chamber’s ability to do much else for the past two weeks, aside from some small-bore legislation. And as lawmakers skip town for a 10-day recess, some Republicans worry that the fight could drag on far past the Feb. 27 shutdown deadline — particularly if Congress ends up passing a short-term funding Band-Aid that merely sets up another cliff.

Many in the Capitol see a short-term extension as the most likely solution to keeping the Department of Homeland Security’s funding from running out at the end of the month, especially with the chambers deadlocked on language that would roll back President Barack Obama’s immigration policies.

But Senate Republicans are already expressing frustration that they’ve wasted too much time trying to appease their House counterparts by voting repeatedly on the same doomed DHS bill, which Democrats have filibustered three times. High-ranking GOP senators are sending a warning flare to the House: The only thing worse than missing the first deadline of the year would be fighting this battle all over again in March or April.

“We’ve got to get off this. We’ve got to get it behind us. We have to at some point bring it to closure,” said Sen. John Thune of South Dakota, the No. 3 Senate Republican. A short-term DHS funding deal “would be a bad outcome for the Senate just in terms of us being to do other things. … If we have to do a short-term extension, we’ve got to revisit this. The next time it comes over, it will take another couple weeks.”

The partisan stalemate is also undermining Republicans’ attempts to show they can run Congress effectively as they head into a tough fight to keep the Senate in 2016.

“This battle should be ended,” said Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), who wants a DHS funding bill with none of the immigration riders that the House attached to its version in January. “When we were given the honor of the majority, we have to govern wisely. Shutdowns are not wise policy for key national security-related departments.”

Asked for his solution to the stalemate, Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) responded: “Take the same time we’re doing this and pass an immigration bill. That’s what I want.”

“We could be doing a lot of things,” added Flake, who had helped broker a deal for comprehensive immigration reform that House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) spurned in the last Congress.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 13 2015 04:58 GMT
#32835
On February 13 2015 13:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 13:08 IgnE wrote:
Lol jonny. You don't know what you are talking about. "Investments" on a spread sheet. Anecdotally I heard you haven't the faintest clue how broadband works or what infrastructure it requires but that you make stupid comments based on an "investments" column.

Prove it or shut up.


You know that broadband internet access comes through the same lines as cable tv right? Where should I start?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 05:19 GMT
#32836
On February 13 2015 13:58 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 13:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 13 2015 13:08 IgnE wrote:
Lol jonny. You don't know what you are talking about. "Investments" on a spread sheet. Anecdotally I heard you haven't the faintest clue how broadband works or what infrastructure it requires but that you make stupid comments based on an "investments" column.

Prove it or shut up.


You know that broadband internet access comes through the same lines as cable tv right? Where should I start?


I recommend starting with some research.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23246 Posts
February 13 2015 05:28 GMT
#32837
On February 13 2015 13:40 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The GOP-controlled Senate is looking a lot like last year’s Democratic Senate: failed procedural votes, short and fruitless workweeks and prolonged periods of inactivity on the floor.

The reason: The stubborn impasse on Homeland Security funding has sapped the chamber’s ability to do much else for the past two weeks, aside from some small-bore legislation. And as lawmakers skip town for a 10-day recess, some Republicans worry that the fight could drag on far past the Feb. 27 shutdown deadline — particularly if Congress ends up passing a short-term funding Band-Aid that merely sets up another cliff.

Many in the Capitol see a short-term extension as the most likely solution to keeping the Department of Homeland Security’s funding from running out at the end of the month, especially with the chambers deadlocked on language that would roll back President Barack Obama’s immigration policies.

But Senate Republicans are already expressing frustration that they’ve wasted too much time trying to appease their House counterparts by voting repeatedly on the same doomed DHS bill, which Democrats have filibustered three times. High-ranking GOP senators are sending a warning flare to the House: The only thing worse than missing the first deadline of the year would be fighting this battle all over again in March or April.

“We’ve got to get off this. We’ve got to get it behind us. We have to at some point bring it to closure,” said Sen. John Thune of South Dakota, the No. 3 Senate Republican. A short-term DHS funding deal “would be a bad outcome for the Senate just in terms of us being to do other things. … If we have to do a short-term extension, we’ve got to revisit this. The next time it comes over, it will take another couple weeks.”

The partisan stalemate is also undermining Republicans’ attempts to show they can run Congress effectively as they head into a tough fight to keep the Senate in 2016.

“This battle should be ended,” said Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.), who wants a DHS funding bill with none of the immigration riders that the House attached to its version in January. “When we were given the honor of the majority, we have to govern wisely. Shutdowns are not wise policy for key national security-related departments.”

Asked for his solution to the stalemate, Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.) responded: “Take the same time we’re doing this and pass an immigration bill. That’s what I want.”

“We could be doing a lot of things,” added Flake, who had helped broker a deal for comprehensive immigration reform that House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) spurned in the last Congress.


Source


Boehner fielding questions about this was pretty funny especially the "Why don't you go ask the Senate Democrats when they are going to get off their ass and do something -- other than to vote no?" line.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-13 05:38:09
February 13 2015 05:33 GMT
#32838
On February 13 2015 14:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 13:58 IgnE wrote:
On February 13 2015 13:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 13 2015 13:08 IgnE wrote:
Lol jonny. You don't know what you are talking about. "Investments" on a spread sheet. Anecdotally I heard you haven't the faintest clue how broadband works or what infrastructure it requires but that you make stupid comments based on an "investments" column.

Prove it or shut up.


You know that broadband internet access comes through the same lines as cable tv right? Where should I start?


I recommend starting with some research.


You are the one who should be doing the research.

The coaxial cable networks that carry the majority of the country's internet services are the same ones that were used in the 80s to carry tv cable. What exactly are you asking me to prove other than pointing out that your "investments" line on a financial report could mean anything, including updating the uniforms of the comcast guy who comes out to check your box? I can't prove that you don't know anything about the internet industry. I just know it.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-13 05:41:46
February 13 2015 05:35 GMT
#32839
there is great opportunity in owning a next-gen last mile network like fiber, but actual rollout pace is not the saem as perceived opportunity. right now they are only targeting rich neighborhoods, but given the nature of the cost structure of internets, if they have fiber everywhere they can dominate cable. actual pace of rollout depends on complex local politics and planning.

government doesn't need to provide capital here, just the right of way and such
http://www.wired.com/2013/07/we-need-to-stop-focusing-on-just-cable-companies-and-blame-local-government-for-dismal-broadband-competition/
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
February 13 2015 06:00 GMT
#32840
On February 13 2015 14:33 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 13 2015 14:19 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 13 2015 13:58 IgnE wrote:
On February 13 2015 13:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On February 13 2015 13:08 IgnE wrote:
Lol jonny. You don't know what you are talking about. "Investments" on a spread sheet. Anecdotally I heard you haven't the faintest clue how broadband works or what infrastructure it requires but that you make stupid comments based on an "investments" column.

Prove it or shut up.


You know that broadband internet access comes through the same lines as cable tv right? Where should I start?


I recommend starting with some research.


You are the one who should be doing the research.

The coaxial cable networks that carry the majority of the country's internet services are the same ones that were used in the 80s to carry tv cable. What exactly are you asking me to prove other than pointing out that your "investments" line on a financial report could mean anything, including updating the uniforms of the comcast guy who comes out to check your box? I can't prove that you don't know anything about the internet industry. I just know it.

Updating uniforms wouldn't count. Nice try though.
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