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On February 03 2015 17:02 Slaughter wrote:
Christie and Paul's statements on vaccinations are incredibly dull. Basically trying to throw out statements that show that they support both. Just pandering to as many people as possible like what every politician does.
This particular pander just happens to help put innocent children and others in danger.
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On February 03 2015 16:53 wei2coolman wrote:
Even as a political move, it's a terrible move for Republicans to stand by anti-vaccs crowd. Especially since this comes during the measles out break at Disneyland...
I mean, who are they going to try and grab from playing with this issue? moderates? Hell da fuck no. They're only playing to a crowd that's already going to vote for them regardless of this issue. If they just ignored this issue all together they would be further ahead. Now moderates just think the anti-vaccination supporters are crazy, and they're going to lump Republicans with them too. A good as Republicans are at framing the issues, this is definitely one they should have avoided.
I would point out that it's not "Republicans" who are standing by the anti-vaccine crowd, just Christie making statements that give some credence to parental choice in vaccines and Paul tying vaccines to mental disorders from anecdotal stories he heard about. They explicitly supported vaccines, with Christie pointing out that his children are all vaccinated.
Other candidates like Scott Walker and Mike Huckabee were unequivocal in their support for vaccines and didn't give any credence to the statements that Christie and Paul made.
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On February 03 2015 17:03 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 17:02 Slaughter wrote:
Christie and Paul's statements on vaccinations are incredibly dull. Basically trying to throw out statements that show that they support both. Just pandering to as many people as possible like what every politician does. This particular pander just happens to put innocent children and others in danger.
I could understand Paul's position and concern about choice at least, buuuut then he went full crazy with the comment about "knowing many people" whose kids have mental problems from them. That is pretty much how hes been to me when viewing him speak, saying a lot of reasonable things then goes full crazy on some issue.
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On February 03 2015 17:04 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 16:53 wei2coolman wrote:
Even as a political move, it's a terrible move for Republicans to stand by anti-vaccs crowd. Especially since this comes during the measles out break at Disneyland...
I mean, who are they going to try and grab from playing with this issue? moderates? Hell da fuck no. They're only playing to a crowd that's already going to vote for them regardless of this issue. If they just ignored this issue all together they would be further ahead. Now moderates just think the anti-vaccination supporters are crazy, and they're going to lump Republicans with them too. A good as Republicans are at framing the issues, this is definitely one they should have avoided. I would point out that it's not "Republicans" who are standing by the anti-vaccine crowd, just Christie making statements that give some credence to parental choice in vaccines and Paul tying vaccines to mental disorders from anecdotal stories he heard about. They explicitly supported vaccines, with Christie pointing out that his children are all vaccinated. Other candidates like Scott Walker and Mike Huckabee were unequivocal in their support for vaccines and didn't give any credence to the statements that Christie and Paul made.
Unfortunately Rand Paul and Christie are supposed front runners for Republicans in 2016, so that's why their opinions tend to hold a bit more representation of the Republican party.
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On February 03 2015 15:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
My preference is for vaccination to not turn into a 'vote for my party' shit fest.
Preparing for disappointment...
Look on the bright side. Complaining about a problem like this means terrorists, speculators, and evil corporate execs took the day off. And at least the media isn't going on about deflated footballs any more, thank God.
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On February 03 2015 17:09 Slaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 17:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2015 17:02 Slaughter wrote:
Christie and Paul's statements on vaccinations are incredibly dull. Basically trying to throw out statements that show that they support both. Just pandering to as many people as possible like what every politician does. This particular pander just happens to put innocent children and others in danger. I could understand Paul's position and concern about choice at least, buuuut then he went full crazy with the comment about "knowing many people" whose kids have mental problems from them. That is pretty much how hes been to me when viewing him speak, saying a lot of reasonable things then goes full crazy on some issue.
The whole choice thing is thrown out the window when this becomes purely a health concern with extremely rigorous science to prove nothing negative can ever happen. The mental stuff is 100% nonsense. It is entirely fabricated. The whole getting infected isn't even an issue now that biochemical techniques have advanced to make it 100% dead. There are no two sides to this issue. The only reasons against vaccination are myths. People die from this shit, it's not something you can just let people opt out of.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
of course vaccination is a serious issue that would affect a candidate's viability (and sanity). if you are disappointed that people don't want to vote for a lunatic get your head checked.
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When the very nature of disease itself conflicts with your ideology, it's time to reconsider things.
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On February 03 2015 17:33 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 17:09 Slaughter wrote:On February 03 2015 17:03 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 03 2015 17:02 Slaughter wrote:
Christie and Paul's statements on vaccinations are incredibly dull. Basically trying to throw out statements that show that they support both. Just pandering to as many people as possible like what every politician does. This particular pander just happens to put innocent children and others in danger. I could understand Paul's position and concern about choice at least, buuuut then he went full crazy with the comment about "knowing many people" whose kids have mental problems from them. That is pretty much how hes been to me when viewing him speak, saying a lot of reasonable things then goes full crazy on some issue. The whole choice thing is thrown out the window when this becomes purely a health concern with extremely rigorous science to prove nothing negative can ever happen. The mental stuff is 100% nonsense. It is entirely fabricated. The whole getting infected isn't even an issue now that biochemical techniques have advanced to make it 100% dead. There are no two sides to this issue. The only reasons against vaccination are myths. People die from this shit, it's not something you can just let people opt out of.
While i am supporter of vaccinces it must be mentioned that like any medicine vaccines do have side effects. Sometimes dengerous. Yes they are very rare and all sane people should vaccinated their children but claiming they are 100% safe is the best way to lose an agument with antivaccination crazies. They will pull out that one i milion case when someone got serious medical complication because of vaccine and they will be right. Dont give them amunnition.
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CNBC does non-scripted interviews, which tends to lead to a lot of derp comments. I wouldn't read into it too much. He said very firmly that he thinks vaccines are great. Calling him anti-vaccine sounds like going down the path of 'Obama is a muslim communist'.
Anyways, from the CDC: + Show Spoiler +MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.
Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine.
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On February 04 2015 03:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:CNBC does non-scripted interviews, which tends to lead to a lot of derp comments. I wouldn't read into it too much. He said very firmly that he thinks vaccines are great. Calling him anti-vaccine sounds like going down the path of 'Obama is a muslim communist'. Anyways, from the CDC: + Show Spoiler +MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.
Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine. While 'vaccines cause autism' isn't proven, it's not fair to say that they're 100% safe either.
He said mental disorders. That is 100% false and there are no two ways about it.
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Canada11367 Posts
Are Paul and Christi at least using the flu shot as an example of vaccination that need not be enforced by the state? Because up here, unless you are in healthcare, it's entirely optional. So if you were to make a case about the state not owning children and parental choice, I would think you would stake your claim on the flu shot or something like that. Not measels and rubella. Or maybe Hep C -a more controversial stance than the flu shot, certainly. (It also is optional, though highly recommended up here.) But exposure is largely due intravenous drugs, contanimated blood and possibly a greater risk with multiple sexual partners- all behaviours possible to avoid. And a logical argument to make, particularly for the party that preaches personal responsibility. In any event, it might reintroduce a little bit of nuance to the all or nothing debate. However, I don't see why you would want to be seen catering to the vaccinations-cause-autism crowd.
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On February 04 2015 03:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:CNBC does non-scripted interviews, which tends to lead to a lot of derp comments. I wouldn't read into it too much. He said very firmly that he thinks vaccines are great. Calling him anti-vaccine sounds like going down the path of 'Obama is a muslim communist'. Anyways, from the CDC: + Show Spoiler +MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.
Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine. While 'vaccines cause autism' isn't proven, it's not fair to say that they're 100% safe either.
Why on earth would he make up shit about them causing mental disorders if he thinks they are great? I could understand stumbling over your words or taking time to think in an unscripted interview, but lying outright? I mean, that's expected from politicians, but Paul is supposed to be better than that.
He keeps getting my hopes up for being a reasonable Republican candidate and then does something batshit insane like this.
Vaccines are a public health issue and should be mandatory, period. People should not be allowed to endanger the lives of others because they are anti-science. Anti-intellectuals in this country were bad enough already, but on this particular issue they are capable of harming people outside of their own personal echo chambers.
EDIT: Worth clarifying, obviously not all vaccines should be mandatory. But deadly childhood illnesses that we have all but eradicated should stay eradicated.
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On February 04 2015 03:53 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 03:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:CNBC does non-scripted interviews, which tends to lead to a lot of derp comments. I wouldn't read into it too much. He said very firmly that he thinks vaccines are great. Calling him anti-vaccine sounds like going down the path of 'Obama is a muslim communist'. Anyways, from the CDC: + Show Spoiler +MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.
Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine. While 'vaccines cause autism' isn't proven, it's not fair to say that they're 100% safe either. He said mental disorders. That is 100% false and there are no two ways about it.
So what? Unless you're reading from a well-vetted script 24/7 you're going to say incorrect things from time to time. It's worrisome if he repeats it, or if he insists on its validity when challenged and presented with evidence. I'm not even sure if what he said is technically incorrect either. He said he had heard of cases where that's happened, not that it is an established fact.
Really, he said multiple times that vaccines are great, they should be encouraged and that he had his own kids vaccinated. That doesn't sound very 'anti-vaccine' to me.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 04 2015 03:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:CNBC does non-scripted interviews, which tends to lead to a lot of derp comments. I wouldn't read into it too much. He said very firmly that he thinks vaccines are great. Calling him anti-vaccine sounds like going down the path of 'Obama is a muslim communist'. Anyways, from the CDC: + Show Spoiler +MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.
Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine. While 'vaccines cause autism' isn't proven, it's not fair to say that they're 100% safe either.
the charge isn't that he's anti-vax but he is entertaining the anti-vax position, which is very very far from the CDC info you posted.
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On February 04 2015 04:19 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 03:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:CNBC does non-scripted interviews, which tends to lead to a lot of derp comments. I wouldn't read into it too much. He said very firmly that he thinks vaccines are great. Calling him anti-vaccine sounds like going down the path of 'Obama is a muslim communist'. Anyways, from the CDC: + Show Spoiler +MMR vaccine side-effects
(Measles, Mumps, and Rubella)
What are the risks from MMR vaccine?
A vaccine, like any medicine, is capable of causing serious problems, such as severe allergic reactions.
The risk of MMR vaccine causing serious harm, or death, is extremely small.
Getting MMR vaccine is much safer than getting measles, mumps or rubella.
Most people who get MMR vaccine do not have any serious problems with it.
Mild Problems
Fever (up to 1 person out of 6)
Mild rash (about 1 person out of 20)
Swelling of glands in the cheeks or neck (about 1 person out of 75)
If these problems occur, it is usually within 7-12 days after the shot. They occur less often after the second dose.
Moderate Problems
Seizure (jerking or staring) caused by fever (about 1 out of 3,000 doses)
Temporary pain and stiffness in the joints, mostly in teenage or adult women (up to 1 out of 4)
Temporary low platelet count, which can cause a bleeding disorder (about 1 out of 30,000 doses)
Severe Problems (Very Rare)
Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses)
Several other severe problems have been reported after a child gets MMR vaccine, including:
Deafness
Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
Permanent brain damage
These are so rare that it is hard to tell whether they are caused by the vaccine. While 'vaccines cause autism' isn't proven, it's not fair to say that they're 100% safe either. the charge isn't that he's anti-vax but he is entertaining the anti-vax position, which is very very far from the CDC info you posted.
Eh... in like one fragment of one sentence, sure. He tried to clarify his point today anyways:
"I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related—I did not allege causation. I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated. In fact, today I received the booster shot for the vaccines I got when I went to Guatemala last year," Paul said in the statement. Link
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On February 03 2015 14:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 14:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
What's with Christie and Rand Paul hopping on the vaccination crazy train? Seems especially weird after how Christie went all Outbreak on the woman who didn't have Ebola. I saw Rand Paul on CNBC and he wasn't anti-vaccine.
but he was pro child-owning
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On February 04 2015 10:36 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 14:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 03 2015 14:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
What's with Christie and Rand Paul hopping on the vaccination crazy train? Seems especially weird after how Christie went all Outbreak on the woman who didn't have Ebola. I saw Rand Paul on CNBC and he wasn't anti-vaccine. but he was pro child-owning
Yeah that didn't go over well either. It's like his civil rights stuff. I don't think he's racist, but that's not the problem with his belief that people should legally be able to hang "No Blacks Allowed" or "Irish need not apply" signs in their business windows.
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Canada11367 Posts
On February 04 2015 10:36 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 14:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 03 2015 14:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
What's with Christie and Rand Paul hopping on the vaccination crazy train? Seems especially weird after how Christie went all Outbreak on the woman who didn't have Ebola. I saw Rand Paul on CNBC and he wasn't anti-vaccine. but he was pro child-owning
I haven't listened the Paul quote in question, but I suspect this is an uncharitable interpretation. There is a reasonable concern over state intrusion into child-rearing. It may be misapplied in the particular case of anti-vaccinations, but I feel like 'pro child-owning' is more snark/ gotcha then an actual point.
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On February 04 2015 10:45 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 10:36 Mindcrime wrote:On February 03 2015 14:53 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On February 03 2015 14:25 GreenHorizons wrote:
What's with Christie and Rand Paul hopping on the vaccination crazy train? Seems especially weird after how Christie went all Outbreak on the woman who didn't have Ebola. I saw Rand Paul on CNBC and he wasn't anti-vaccine. but he was pro child-owning I haven't listened the Paul quote in question, but I suspect this is an uncharitable interpretation. There is a reasonable concern over state intrusion into child-rearing. It may be misapplied in the particular case of anti-vaccinations, but I feel like 'pro child-owning' is more snark/ gotcha then an actual point.
Snark, sure, but it is absolutely what he said. Word for word: "The state doesn't own our children. Parents own the children."
2:08
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