|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On March 14 2018 09:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:I didn't say anything about Pompeo. But hey, guess who was buttering up to FSB spooks in unheard of numbers as of January 31st this year? Guess who? But this is besides the point. You didn't even challenge or cite anything to dispute my points (1) (2) and (3) above. DJT fired Tillerson only after and because of him speaking out against the big man. Pompeo will keep his job as long as he keeps on the good side of the FSB crew. Show nested quote +
Meetings between U.S. and Russian spy chiefs are not unheard of and Pompeo himself met with some Russian intelligence officials when he visited Moscow last May.
Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said they could not recall so many heads of Russia’s espionage and security apparatus coming to Washington at once and meeting with a top American official. They worried the Kremlin could conclude the United States is open to forgiving Russia for its actions and was not resolved to forcefully prevent future meddling.
A description of the meeting sent to U.S. intelligence officers portrayed Russia as a partner willing to work with the United States and said the countries should look for ways to cooperate on counterterrorism issues.
There is now friction between the operational elements of the U.S. intelligence community, who want to step up action to punish and deter what they see as a rising threat from Russia, and the White House, which is looking for ways to repair the U.S.-Russia relationship, according to current and former U.S. officials.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-spy-chiefs-met-in-washington-with-cia-director-to-discuss-counterterrorism/2018/01/31/0b761976-068b-11e8-94e8-e8b8600ade23_story.html?utm_term=.d689fed6f5f0
Nothing would make me happier than for all the respected liberals to back you up on this, which is why I'm going to see what they choose to do before I bother.
Meanwhile, I'm not surprised NBC cut this.
|
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH.
|
Wonder if the translation is correct.
|
On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH.
Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory.
|
On March 14 2018 09:18 ShoCkeyy wrote:
Wonder if the translation is correct.
My Russian friend says it's a reasonably accurate translation, fwiw.
|
On March 14 2018 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH. Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory.
So because we have interfered, it's okay to put a Russian puppet in office as the President of the United States? Not sure I get the point you're making. Should we stay out of shit? Maybe. There are likely some circumstances where it's warranted. Doesn't excuse what Putin did.
|
On March 14 2018 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH. Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory.
Example GH argument: But you do it TOO, and MORE!!!!
Do you see the but in there? That combined with the TOO is an admission. Here is the part where Putin does the but into TOO transition.
//my best transcription from the video's translation
... and when they claim some Russians interfered in the US elections, we tell them and we did so fairly recently at a very high level: But you are constantly interfering in our political life ...
I get how you want to emphasize the MOREE!!!!. But the MORE is an accusation. Admissions count for more than accusations. And further, the accusations are not justifications and are not even excuses. They are at best counter attacks. The problem is that by reaching for the But without a denial, you admit the charge by equating your opponents actions with your own.
|
On March 14 2018 09:48 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH. Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory. So because we have interfered, it's okay to put a Russian puppet in office as the President of the United States? Not sure I get the point you're making. Should we stay out of shit? Maybe. There are likely some circumstances where it's warranted. Doesn't excuse what Putin did.
I struggle to comprehend how you'll reconcile this belief with the results of the Mueller investigation, but I'm sure it will be interesting.
On March 14 2018 09:49 Wulfey_LA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH. Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory. Example GH argument: But you do it TOO, and MORE!!!! Do you see the but in there? That combined with the TOO is an admission. Here is the part where Putin does the but into TOO transition. //my best transcription from the video's translation Show nested quote +
... and when they claim some Russians interfered in the US elections, we tell them and we did so fairly recently at a very high level: But you are constantly interfering in our political life ...
I get how you want to emphasize the MOREE!!!!. But the MORE is an accusation. Admissions count for more than accusations. And further, the accusations are not justifications and are not even excuses. They are at best counter attacks. The problem is that by reaching for the But without a denial, you admit the charge by equating your opponents actions with your own.
At this point I'm genuinely not sure if you didn't understand what was said there or you're intentionally doing this.
Watch/read/listen again and see if that's what he's saying.
He's saying "we did so, at a very high level" referring to discussing this topic recently with people representing our government and there's a pretty strict denial but that's not really the point.
If Russia unilaterally shut down any and all influence in this country (outside approved economic activity) it's not like even a fraction of this attention would shift to the billions we spend interfering in elections around the world. Because that's not actually your guys' problem. It's some amalgamation of Maddow farts constructed into a Manchurian Russian candidate with no real critique of the underlying issues.
|
"Berniebros" defending Putin. Are we defending his terrorist-attack on the UK as well? Or just the attack on our democracy (because it didn't really happen, please believe me)?
Or is it just as simple as, "I like America's enemies because I dislike America more"? You pretend not to care about this story, but in actuality, you are following it. You're just more interested in what Putin has to say than those Hillary-libs on MSNBC.
And, yes, GH, the "liberal sphere", aka the civilized world, aka the view most validated by empirical evidence, strongly suggests that Tillerson was fired for criticizing Russia. There's a lot of extremely obvious reasons for thinking that.
It doesn't mean Tillerson was a good Sec of State. It doesn't mean he wasn't hired for his Russian-favoritism. It's just putting two and two together in the context of current events.
|
|
|
On March 14 2018 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:48 Ayaz2810 wrote:On March 14 2018 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH. Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory. So because we have interfered, it's okay to put a Russian puppet in office as the President of the United States? Not sure I get the point you're making. Should we stay out of shit? Maybe. There are likely some circumstances where it's warranted. Doesn't excuse what Putin did. I struggle to comprehend how you'll reconcile this belief with the results of the Mueller investigation, but I'm sure it will be interesting. Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:49 Wulfey_LA wrote:On March 14 2018 09:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:17 Wulfey_LA wrote:
"but you are constantly interfering" is not a denial. That is an admission. I can see where you get it from GH. Get what from? The ability to think critically and point out the ridiculousness of liberals on this topic? Have to say that predates your conspiracy theory. Example GH argument: But you do it TOO, and MORE!!!! Do you see the but in there? That combined with the TOO is an admission. Here is the part where Putin does the but into TOO transition. //my best transcription from the video's translation
... and when they claim some Russians interfered in the US elections, we tell them and we did so fairly recently at a very high level: But you are constantly interfering in our political life ...
I get how you want to emphasize the MOREE!!!!. But the MORE is an accusation. Admissions count for more than accusations. And further, the accusations are not justifications and are not even excuses. They are at best counter attacks. The problem is that by reaching for the But without a denial, you admit the charge by equating your opponents actions with your own. At this point I'm genuinely not sure if you didn't understand what was said there or you're intentionally doing this. Watch/read/listen again and see if that's what he's saying. He's saying "we did so, at a very high level" referring to discussing this topic recently with people representing our government.
I mean, it's pretty obvious at this point. The "beyond a reasonable doubt" legal part =/= "YOU DON'T REAAAAAAALLY KNOW MAN". We know. There's enough information in the public sphere to make this a pretty open and shut case.
|
On March 14 2018 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:I didn't say anything about Pompeo. But hey, guess who was buttering up to FSB spooks in unheard of numbers as of January 31st this year? Guess who? But this is besides the point. You didn't even challenge or cite anything to dispute my points (1) (2) and (3) above. DJT fired Tillerson only after and because of him speaking out against the big man. Pompeo will keep his job as long as he keeps on the good side of the FSB crew.
Meetings between U.S. and Russian spy chiefs are not unheard of and Pompeo himself met with some Russian intelligence officials when he visited Moscow last May.
Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said they could not recall so many heads of Russia’s espionage and security apparatus coming to Washington at once and meeting with a top American official. They worried the Kremlin could conclude the United States is open to forgiving Russia for its actions and was not resolved to forcefully prevent future meddling.
A description of the meeting sent to U.S. intelligence officers portrayed Russia as a partner willing to work with the United States and said the countries should look for ways to cooperate on counterterrorism issues.
There is now friction between the operational elements of the U.S. intelligence community, who want to step up action to punish and deter what they see as a rising threat from Russia, and the White House, which is looking for ways to repair the U.S.-Russia relationship, according to current and former U.S. officials.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-spy-chiefs-met-in-washington-with-cia-director-to-discuss-counterterrorism/2018/01/31/0b761976-068b-11e8-94e8-e8b8600ade23_story.html?utm_term=.d689fed6f5f0 Nothing would make me happier than for all the respected liberals to back you up on this, which is why I'm going to see what they choose to do before I bother. Meanwhile, I'm not surprised NBC cut this.
Tillerson getting fired can be a number of reasons. I'd give criticizing Russia a non 0% chance, tho probably not very high. More likely it would be part of a much longer list of differences of opinion.
Iran was mentioned as another reason and if that is it we will see it soon enough when his replacement moves against Iran.
As for the Putin bit. We have criticized US interference before and having done it themselves doesn't mean the US should accept it happening to them. No country goes "well, its only fair you get your puppet president since we tried it to" when they have the ability to do something about it and discourage future meddling.
|
|
|
|
|
United States24750 Posts
That's a bit misleading due to the fact that the remaining votes are expected to tilt significantly more red than the votes already counted. However, that brings us to the discussion a few months ago about whether or not these real-time election analyses tools are ridiculous.
|
On March 14 2018 10:06 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:I didn't say anything about Pompeo. But hey, guess who was buttering up to FSB spooks in unheard of numbers as of January 31st this year? Guess who? But this is besides the point. You didn't even challenge or cite anything to dispute my points (1) (2) and (3) above. DJT fired Tillerson only after and because of him speaking out against the big man. Pompeo will keep his job as long as he keeps on the good side of the FSB crew.
Meetings between U.S. and Russian spy chiefs are not unheard of and Pompeo himself met with some Russian intelligence officials when he visited Moscow last May.
Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said they could not recall so many heads of Russia’s espionage and security apparatus coming to Washington at once and meeting with a top American official. They worried the Kremlin could conclude the United States is open to forgiving Russia for its actions and was not resolved to forcefully prevent future meddling.
A description of the meeting sent to U.S. intelligence officers portrayed Russia as a partner willing to work with the United States and said the countries should look for ways to cooperate on counterterrorism issues.
There is now friction between the operational elements of the U.S. intelligence community, who want to step up action to punish and deter what they see as a rising threat from Russia, and the White House, which is looking for ways to repair the U.S.-Russia relationship, according to current and former U.S. officials.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-spy-chiefs-met-in-washington-with-cia-director-to-discuss-counterterrorism/2018/01/31/0b761976-068b-11e8-94e8-e8b8600ade23_story.html?utm_term=.d689fed6f5f0 Nothing would make me happier than for all the respected liberals to back you up on this, which is why I'm going to see what they choose to do before I bother. Meanwhile, I'm not surprised NBC cut this. Tillerson getting fired can be a number of reasons. I'd give criticizing Russia a non 0% chance, tho probably not very high. More likely it would be part of a much longer list of differences of opinion. Iran was mentioned as another reason and if that is it we will see it soon enough when his replacement moves against Iran. As for the Putin bit. We have criticized US interference before and having done it themselves doesn't mean the US should accept it happening to them. No country goes "well, its only fair you get your puppet president since we tried it to" when they have the ability to do something about it and discourage future meddling.
Is this the best the liberals are going to do to reign in their conspiracy theorists? Surely if xDaunt and Danglars were presenting comparably ridiculous positions you guys could do better than this.
No one is suggesting the US should "accept it happening to them" like just because you're a thief, doesn't mean you just accept people stealing from you. But it does color what sort of responses and justifications hold water. For instance, a thief doesn't take another thief to court to adjudicate who gets possession of the stolen merch (unless you're a corporation).
|
|
|
On March 14 2018 10:17 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 10:06 Gorsameth wrote:On March 14 2018 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:I didn't say anything about Pompeo. But hey, guess who was buttering up to FSB spooks in unheard of numbers as of January 31st this year? Guess who? But this is besides the point. You didn't even challenge or cite anything to dispute my points (1) (2) and (3) above. DJT fired Tillerson only after and because of him speaking out against the big man. Pompeo will keep his job as long as he keeps on the good side of the FSB crew.
Meetings between U.S. and Russian spy chiefs are not unheard of and Pompeo himself met with some Russian intelligence officials when he visited Moscow last May.
Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said they could not recall so many heads of Russia’s espionage and security apparatus coming to Washington at once and meeting with a top American official. They worried the Kremlin could conclude the United States is open to forgiving Russia for its actions and was not resolved to forcefully prevent future meddling.
A description of the meeting sent to U.S. intelligence officers portrayed Russia as a partner willing to work with the United States and said the countries should look for ways to cooperate on counterterrorism issues.
There is now friction between the operational elements of the U.S. intelligence community, who want to step up action to punish and deter what they see as a rising threat from Russia, and the White House, which is looking for ways to repair the U.S.-Russia relationship, according to current and former U.S. officials.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-spy-chiefs-met-in-washington-with-cia-director-to-discuss-counterterrorism/2018/01/31/0b761976-068b-11e8-94e8-e8b8600ade23_story.html?utm_term=.d689fed6f5f0 Nothing would make me happier than for all the respected liberals to back you up on this, which is why I'm going to see what they choose to do before I bother. Meanwhile, I'm not surprised NBC cut this. Tillerson getting fired can be a number of reasons. I'd give criticizing Russia a non 0% chance, tho probably not very high. More likely it would be part of a much longer list of differences of opinion. Iran was mentioned as another reason and if that is it we will see it soon enough when his replacement moves against Iran. As for the Putin bit. We have criticized US interference before and having done it themselves doesn't mean the US should accept it happening to them. No country goes "well, its only fair you get your puppet president since we tried it to" when they have the ability to do something about it and discourage future meddling. Is this the best the liberals are going to do to reign in their conspiracy theorists? Surely if xDaunt and Danglars were presenting comparably ridiculous positions you guys could do better than this. No one is suggesting the US should "accept it happening to them" like just because you're a thief, doesn't mean you just accept people stealing from you. But it does color what sort of responses and justifications hold water. For instance, a thief doesn't take another thief to court to adjudicate who gets possession of the stolen merch.
And your explanation for the total lack of action in response and the blatant Putin asskissing is?
|
On March 14 2018 10:15 micronesia wrote:
That's a bit misleading due to the fact that the remaining votes are expected to tilt significantly more red than the votes already counted. However, that brings us to the discussion a few months ago about whether or not these real-time election analyses tools are ridiculous.
Well the maps and further elaboration on that site do a pretty good job of showing that imo, and the prediction is that it'll be incredibly close.
Are they replacing a Dem or a Repub? Just curious which side would pick up a seat.
Edit: Tim Murphy, Repub.
|
On March 14 2018 10:19 Ayaz2810 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2018 10:17 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 10:06 Gorsameth wrote:On March 14 2018 09:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On March 14 2018 09:01 Wulfey_LA wrote:I didn't say anything about Pompeo. But hey, guess who was buttering up to FSB spooks in unheard of numbers as of January 31st this year? Guess who? But this is besides the point. You didn't even challenge or cite anything to dispute my points (1) (2) and (3) above. DJT fired Tillerson only after and because of him speaking out against the big man. Pompeo will keep his job as long as he keeps on the good side of the FSB crew.
Meetings between U.S. and Russian spy chiefs are not unheard of and Pompeo himself met with some Russian intelligence officials when he visited Moscow last May.
Current and former U.S. intelligence officials said they could not recall so many heads of Russia’s espionage and security apparatus coming to Washington at once and meeting with a top American official. They worried the Kremlin could conclude the United States is open to forgiving Russia for its actions and was not resolved to forcefully prevent future meddling.
A description of the meeting sent to U.S. intelligence officers portrayed Russia as a partner willing to work with the United States and said the countries should look for ways to cooperate on counterterrorism issues.
There is now friction between the operational elements of the U.S. intelligence community, who want to step up action to punish and deter what they see as a rising threat from Russia, and the White House, which is looking for ways to repair the U.S.-Russia relationship, according to current and former U.S. officials.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/russian-spy-chiefs-met-in-washington-with-cia-director-to-discuss-counterterrorism/2018/01/31/0b761976-068b-11e8-94e8-e8b8600ade23_story.html?utm_term=.d689fed6f5f0 Nothing would make me happier than for all the respected liberals to back you up on this, which is why I'm going to see what they choose to do before I bother. Meanwhile, I'm not surprised NBC cut this. Tillerson getting fired can be a number of reasons. I'd give criticizing Russia a non 0% chance, tho probably not very high. More likely it would be part of a much longer list of differences of opinion. Iran was mentioned as another reason and if that is it we will see it soon enough when his replacement moves against Iran. As for the Putin bit. We have criticized US interference before and having done it themselves doesn't mean the US should accept it happening to them. No country goes "well, its only fair you get your puppet president since we tried it to" when they have the ability to do something about it and discourage future meddling. Is this the best the liberals are going to do to reign in their conspiracy theorists? Surely if xDaunt and Danglars were presenting comparably ridiculous positions you guys could do better than this. No one is suggesting the US should "accept it happening to them" like just because you're a thief, doesn't mean you just accept people stealing from you. But it does color what sort of responses and justifications hold water. For instance, a thief doesn't take another thief to court to adjudicate who gets possession of the stolen merch. And your explanation for the total lack of action in response and the blatant Putin asskissing is?
I'd start by suggesting trying to undermine the Iran deal since the campaign isn't Putin asskissing in the first place, nor backing up the idea that Syria is using chemical weapon attacks from massive reserves they have (sound familiar?)
I'd also note that Mueller's indictment saying Russia gave up on any semblance of a plan to make Trump president prior to the election, and the single biggest example of their influence was an anti-Trump rally we (but no one in corporate media) noticed was actually a propaganda piece from the US, should reduce your adherence to the idea that Trump is a Putin shill.
Trump is a Trump shill. He's now ceded control of State effectively to the CIA (not particularly known for their pro Russian bias) so you're going to struggle to fit his upcoming moves into this narrative.
Trump is our (bipartisan) government personified in so many ways it's almost freaky.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
