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On March 06 2018 02:18 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:09 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). So you agree -- there is nothing I can say that will change your mind? We live in parallel realities? I mean, at this point the only thing we can do is debate the merits of the news we choose to believe. I can show you numerous examples of how FOX and Breitbart et al. have straight up lied, been extremely misleading, or been gravely erroneous with a microscopic correction/retraction. I can show you how many people would have to be in on this vast left-wing conspiracy for the thousands of media outlets in the world that aren't owned by the Murdochs, Sinclairs, and Mercers to be actively lying in order to undermine your views. I can show you numerous examples where FOX et al. have alleged some massive scandal, but right-wing politicians do nothing about it; whereas when every other media outlet alleges a massive scandal, the right-wing politicians take it seriously as if it's based in reality. I can show you how it is extremely suspicious that Trump meets with Rupert Murdoch on a weekly basis and have a demonstrable feedback loop for each other. I can do all these things, but what point is there? I'm sure you have a rationalization for every single argument I can make. It makes no difference what I say. You trust FOX. I trust the thousands of independent media outlets not owned by a rich mogul who has openly admitted to being favorable to the right-wing. Likely nothing but a direct intervention from God himself is going to change that. I made it kinda obvious. Generalizing the other side as living in some kind of parallel reality makes it sure nobody will argue you out of your idiotic perspective and will just do the same back (if this idiot is strawmanning half the country as irredeemable head cases, maybe we let him live in his constructed reality). Echo chambers are so fun when you justify that your echo chamber is the only realistic option left. His argument is quite clear and it's difficult to argue against it from my perspective. - Fairness doctrine ends, people get to say whatever shit they want and call it news, rightwing talk radio and Fox News emerge. - A bunch of talking points develop around that, people believe them. - Other people correctly view those talking points to be manufactured to present a narrative. - There's a gap between these two groups of people. You can make the argument that it's the rightwing that is correct, and the other media are the ones doing the Fake News. But you can't really argue that the gap doesn't exist.
Can you not long for curated news and an end to the first amendment so openly? It makes me wonder if we shouldn’t be on a psychology board debating “Are humans so easily deceived that Your Moral Betters(TM) should control what news and opinion they watch?”
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On March 06 2018 02:14 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The structural problem being the existence of the Republican party? Not sure if its fair to expect Obama to 'fix' that problem. I mean this is purely speculative but IF there's a crash in the next few years I'd imagine, as shocking as this might be to some people in here, that that would mainly be due to the failure under Obama's presidency to bring the banking sector to heel. From my understanding of it, there's a lotttt of very cheap money sloshing around markets right now due to the lending policies of the central agencies of the US, UK, ECB etc and that could end up in a crash. If that were to happen, I think Obama (or at least what happened under Obama's tenure, meaning the Republicans too) would be responsible.
There was a lot of financial regulation that came out of the financial crisis. To argue that another crash is Obama's fault you'd really have to be argue that financial regulation didn't go far enough, and the crash was in spite of what was done.
I'm not sure how cheap money relates to risk of a crash.
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On March 06 2018 02:17 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:13 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:29 Leporello wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). He is in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of the Western World lives in. You're in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of Russia and now the lesser half of America lives in. "We're all tribalists". Nope. Speak for yourself. Deflect harder. This constant need to make the world Fair and Balanced, when it isn't. Only one political party is destroying America's reputation: Yours. Only one political party has sought to provide cover for the highest levels of treason imaginable. That's not a convenient fact for anyone, actually. But it is true. Because of stuff like this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier which you continually ignore, just like you all ignore Trump's disasters, just like you ignore everything about the expired assault-rifle ban, just like you ignore a century's worth of tax-data that suggests that pretty much everything you do is wrong and backwards. Almost no one on the "right" argues in good faith. You all lie constantly, to such a degree, that people feel need to placate and cater to your lies for a bastardized version of "civility", or they're forced, like me, to simply abandon all pretense of hope and respect for you. Hence: this thread. People like you are the reason American politics is dead. You could, and will, argue that people like me are killing politics by accusing people like you so harshly. But that's just not true at this point, if it ever was. Partisanship isn't inherently flawed (just inherently problematic), until one of the two parties abandons all of its integrity. Then the whole system is fucked. IDK what we do 2018, 2020, and beyond. Just elect Democrats full-time, while Republicans stay in some minority-bubble for the rest of their ignorant lives? I'm actually not okay with that. It's not good for anyone. When 90% of the democratic societies of the world are telling you something (which is approximately Trump's approval ratings in European polling) -- they're not the echo-chamber. Your willingness to ignore them -- that is the obvious echo-chamber. Your political discourse is as earnest and real as Trump's State Department. Operate like a tribalist, get called for being a tribalist. My tribe is the factual understanding of the whole world, your tribe is composed of ignorant Luddites. Next time you try to contest the characterization, don’t prove it right so very hard. lol, accusing someone else of being a Luddite. "Trump Digs Coal"
You misunderstood his post, he's saying that this is a characterization of Leporello's world view.
And that's the kind of answer that you want to avoid if you're really intent on convincing Trump supporters btw, you're clearly talking to us and not to him there.
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On March 06 2018 02:18 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore. You’re doing a fine job projecting your moms love of FOX and your brothers behavior (at this point I hardly know if you can accurately judge what he’s doing, but that’s beside the point) onto all Trump supporters everywhere. I understand that family conflict affects everyone deeply, but politics shouldn’t run your life and it shouldn’t make you give up on America or smear Republicans based on your anecdotes.
I am 100% convinced that FOX News is the overwhelmingly dominant reason why Republicans still exist. There's other outlets (I have mentioned Breitbart and InfoWars) but they're small fries by comparison; the Republican base is overwhelmingly old people that get their news from cable TV, and FOX is the only news outlet they trust (or, perhaps, are ever exposed to).
Do you honestly think that there's a significant number of Americans who both [a] strongly support Trump, and [b] regularly get news from non-rightwing media that they trust?
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On March 06 2018 02:21 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:18 Nebuchad wrote:On March 06 2018 02:09 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). So you agree -- there is nothing I can say that will change your mind? We live in parallel realities? I mean, at this point the only thing we can do is debate the merits of the news we choose to believe. I can show you numerous examples of how FOX and Breitbart et al. have straight up lied, been extremely misleading, or been gravely erroneous with a microscopic correction/retraction. I can show you how many people would have to be in on this vast left-wing conspiracy for the thousands of media outlets in the world that aren't owned by the Murdochs, Sinclairs, and Mercers to be actively lying in order to undermine your views. I can show you numerous examples where FOX et al. have alleged some massive scandal, but right-wing politicians do nothing about it; whereas when every other media outlet alleges a massive scandal, the right-wing politicians take it seriously as if it's based in reality. I can show you how it is extremely suspicious that Trump meets with Rupert Murdoch on a weekly basis and have a demonstrable feedback loop for each other. I can do all these things, but what point is there? I'm sure you have a rationalization for every single argument I can make. It makes no difference what I say. You trust FOX. I trust the thousands of independent media outlets not owned by a rich mogul who has openly admitted to being favorable to the right-wing. Likely nothing but a direct intervention from God himself is going to change that. I made it kinda obvious. Generalizing the other side as living in some kind of parallel reality makes it sure nobody will argue you out of your idiotic perspective and will just do the same back (if this idiot is strawmanning half the country as irredeemable head cases, maybe we let him live in his constructed reality). Echo chambers are so fun when you justify that your echo chamber is the only realistic option left. His argument is quite clear and it's difficult to argue against it from my perspective. - Fairness doctrine ends, people get to say whatever shit they want and call it news, rightwing talk radio and Fox News emerge. - A bunch of talking points develop around that, people believe them. - Other people correctly view those talking points to be manufactured to present a narrative. - There's a gap between these two groups of people. You can make the argument that it's the rightwing that is correct, and the other media are the ones doing the Fake News. But you can't really argue that the gap doesn't exist. Can you not long for curated news and an end to the first amendment so openly? It makes me wonder if we shouldn’t be on a psychology board debating “Are humans so easily deceived that Your Moral Betters(TM) should control what news and opinion they watch?”
No, I can't. I like it when the news reflect the facts, I find that to be pretty good for humanity in general.
Edit: that was the wrong answer by me. I should have asked why you wanted to shift the conversation from the existence of the gap between liberal and conservative realities in the US to how terrible a person I am. Is it because you don't have much to add on the other subject?
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On March 06 2018 02:20 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The republican party voted for the bail out(TARP) and then blamed the Democrats for the bail out to take back congress 2 years later. It is one of the most cynical political maneuvers I have ever seen. The Democrats never really got the chance to fix the structural problems, which will take more than 2 years to address.
I should've been more clear - I'm mostly referring to Obama-era, I don't particularly care enough to distinguish where exact responsibilities lie (mainly because I see the Republicans as an almost completely malevolent force, and consequently any Democratic action or inaction is set against this background of permanent, unmovable malevolence).
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Honestly if you can’t deal with the fact that family members will disagree with your politics, often aggressively so, then that’s on you. It’s not that they became neo-Nazis while you remained sane, it’s that you let the Trump psychosis permeate your life.
I guess the only consolation is that there are a lot of such individuals around so you have company.
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On March 06 2018 02:21 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:18 Nebuchad wrote:On March 06 2018 02:09 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). So you agree -- there is nothing I can say that will change your mind? We live in parallel realities? I mean, at this point the only thing we can do is debate the merits of the news we choose to believe. I can show you numerous examples of how FOX and Breitbart et al. have straight up lied, been extremely misleading, or been gravely erroneous with a microscopic correction/retraction. I can show you how many people would have to be in on this vast left-wing conspiracy for the thousands of media outlets in the world that aren't owned by the Murdochs, Sinclairs, and Mercers to be actively lying in order to undermine your views. I can show you numerous examples where FOX et al. have alleged some massive scandal, but right-wing politicians do nothing about it; whereas when every other media outlet alleges a massive scandal, the right-wing politicians take it seriously as if it's based in reality. I can show you how it is extremely suspicious that Trump meets with Rupert Murdoch on a weekly basis and have a demonstrable feedback loop for each other. I can do all these things, but what point is there? I'm sure you have a rationalization for every single argument I can make. It makes no difference what I say. You trust FOX. I trust the thousands of independent media outlets not owned by a rich mogul who has openly admitted to being favorable to the right-wing. Likely nothing but a direct intervention from God himself is going to change that. I made it kinda obvious. Generalizing the other side as living in some kind of parallel reality makes it sure nobody will argue you out of your idiotic perspective and will just do the same back (if this idiot is strawmanning half the country as irredeemable head cases, maybe we let him live in his constructed reality). Echo chambers are so fun when you justify that your echo chamber is the only realistic option left. His argument is quite clear and it's difficult to argue against it from my perspective. - Fairness doctrine ends, people get to say whatever shit they want and call it news, rightwing talk radio and Fox News emerge. - A bunch of talking points develop around that, people believe them. - Other people correctly view those talking points to be manufactured to present a narrative. - There's a gap between these two groups of people. You can make the argument that it's the rightwing that is correct, and the other media are the ones doing the Fake News. But you can't really argue that the gap doesn't exist. Can you not long for curated news and an end to the first amendment so openly? It makes me wonder if we shouldn’t be on a psychology board debating “Are humans so easily deceived that Your Moral Betters(TM) should control what news and opinion they watch?”
There's plenty of restrictions on the First Amendment; it's not a suicide pact. Free speech doesn't allow one to blackmail or threaten. Freedom of religion doesn't allow for human sacrifice. Freedom of press doesn't allow one to slander and libel. Freedom of assembly doesn't allow for armed insurrections.
The Founding Fathers never lived to see totalitarianism, the Orwellian psychological attacks that liars foist upon voters. They had no concept of gaslighting. They had no concept of state propaganda to a Stalinist degree. They never possibly imagined an entire ruling party would make memos out of classified intelligence in order to discredit investigations into themselves. We will never know what Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and the rest would say about Trump or FOX News.
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On March 06 2018 02:21 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:14 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The structural problem being the existence of the Republican party? Not sure if its fair to expect Obama to 'fix' that problem. I mean this is purely speculative but IF there's a crash in the next few years I'd imagine, as shocking as this might be to some people in here, that that would mainly be due to the failure under Obama's presidency to bring the banking sector to heel. From my understanding of it, there's a lotttt of very cheap money sloshing around markets right now due to the lending policies of the central agencies of the US, UK, ECB etc and that could end up in a crash. If that were to happen, I think Obama (or at least what happened under Obama's tenure, meaning the Republicans too) would be responsible. There was a lot of financial regulation that came out of the financial crisis. To argue that another crash is Obama's fault you'd really have to be argue that financial regulation didn't go far enough, and the crash was in spite of what was done. I'm not sure how cheap money relates to risk of a crash.
If another crash happened I think I would argue that, though again with the caveat of the obstructionism of the Republicans. From what I understand, when the supply of cheap money runs out after interest rates rise, this can result in fairly precipitous market drops which could turn to a crash (as the recent DOW drop might show).
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On March 06 2018 02:25 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:20 Plansix wrote:On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The republican party voted for the bail out(TARP) and then blamed the Democrats for the bail out to take back congress 2 years later. It is one of the most cynical political maneuvers I have ever seen. The Democrats never really got the chance to fix the structural problems, which will take more than 2 years to address. I should've been more clear - I'm mostly referring to Obama-era, I don't particularly care enough to distinguish where exact responsibilities lie (mainly because I see the Republicans as an almost completely malevolent force, and consequently any Democratic action or inaction is set against this background of permanent, unmovable malevolence).
It's what makes judging any part of Obama's Presidency hard. You can't answer "did he do enough on X" without addressing the elephant in the room of unrivaled levels of obstruction to stop a black President from being successful.
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On March 06 2018 02:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:25 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 02:20 Plansix wrote:On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The republican party voted for the bail out(TARP) and then blamed the Democrats for the bail out to take back congress 2 years later. It is one of the most cynical political maneuvers I have ever seen. The Democrats never really got the chance to fix the structural problems, which will take more than 2 years to address. I should've been more clear - I'm mostly referring to Obama-era, I don't particularly care enough to distinguish where exact responsibilities lie (mainly because I see the Republicans as an almost completely malevolent force, and consequently any Democratic action or inaction is set against this background of permanent, unmovable malevolence). It's what makes judging any part of Obama's Presidency hard. You can't answer "did he do enough on X" without addressing the elephant in the room of unrivaled levels of obstruction to stop a black President from being successful.
You also can’t judge Obama’s presidency without people giving him credit for all his successes but few to none of his faults - blaming those on obstruction.
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On March 06 2018 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Honestly if you can’t deal with the fact that family members will disagree with your politics, often aggressively so, then that’s on you. It’s not that they became neo-Nazis while you remained sane, it’s that you let the Trump psychosis permeate your life.
I guess the only consolation is that there are a lot of such individuals around so you have company.
That's a great point, LegalLord. The problem isn't that my own family member is openly calling for my extermination (and presumably his own afterwards, though I am not sure if he's thought that far ahead); it's that I let the "Trump psychosis" permeate my life. I guess I'm the intolerant and insane one.
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On March 06 2018 02:29 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:25 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 02:20 Plansix wrote:On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The republican party voted for the bail out(TARP) and then blamed the Democrats for the bail out to take back congress 2 years later. It is one of the most cynical political maneuvers I have ever seen. The Democrats never really got the chance to fix the structural problems, which will take more than 2 years to address. I should've been more clear - I'm mostly referring to Obama-era, I don't particularly care enough to distinguish where exact responsibilities lie (mainly because I see the Republicans as an almost completely malevolent force, and consequently any Democratic action or inaction is set against this background of permanent, unmovable malevolence). It's what makes judging any part of Obama's Presidency hard. You can't answer "did he do enough on X" without addressing the elephant in the room of unrivaled levels of obstruction to stop a black President from being successful.
Honestly, that is how all US politics should be talked about. Congress is a completely separate branch and its function or dysfunction should be judged on its own. Especially post 9/11, because congress was as much to blame for all the bad policies as the Bush administration.
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On March 06 2018 02:23 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:18 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore. You’re doing a fine job projecting your moms love of FOX and your brothers behavior (at this point I hardly know if you can accurately judge what he’s doing, but that’s beside the point) onto all Trump supporters everywhere. I understand that family conflict affects everyone deeply, but politics shouldn’t run your life and it shouldn’t make you give up on America or smear Republicans based on your anecdotes. I am 100% convinced that FOX News is the overwhelmingly dominant reason why Republicans still exist. There's other outlets (I have mentioned Breitbart and InfoWars) but they're small fries by comparison; the Republican base is overwhelmingly old people that get their news from cable TV, and FOX is the only news outlet they trust (or, perhaps, are ever exposed to). Do you honestly think that there's a significant number of Americans who both [a] strongly support Trump, and [b] regularly get news from non-rightwing media that they trust?
it's part of a larger social movement/trend which predates fox. it started on the right-wing talk radio.
fox news may be one of its most noted propaganda sources; but there are other factors around in it all.
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On March 06 2018 02:33 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Honestly if you can’t deal with the fact that family members will disagree with your politics, often aggressively so, then that’s on you. It’s not that they became neo-Nazis while you remained sane, it’s that you let the Trump psychosis permeate your life.
I guess the only consolation is that there are a lot of such individuals around so you have company. That's a great point, LegalLord. The problem isn't that my own family member is openly calling for my extermination (and presumably his own afterwards, though I am not sure if he's thought that far ahead); it's that I let the "Trump psychosis" permeate my life. I guess I'm the intolerant and insane one.
Based on what you’re posting here? Damn straight you’re the insane one of the two. Complete with the requisite hyperbole.
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On March 06 2018 02:35 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:33 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Honestly if you can’t deal with the fact that family members will disagree with your politics, often aggressively so, then that’s on you. It’s not that they became neo-Nazis while you remained sane, it’s that you let the Trump psychosis permeate your life.
I guess the only consolation is that there are a lot of such individuals around so you have company. That's a great point, LegalLord. The problem isn't that my own family member is openly calling for my extermination (and presumably his own afterwards, though I am not sure if he's thought that far ahead); it's that I let the "Trump psychosis" permeate my life. I guess I'm the intolerant and insane one. Based on what you’re posting here? Damn straight you’re the insane one of the two. Complete with the requisite hyperbole.
There is no hyperbole is the neo-nazi message of people marching to swastika's.
But sure, go argue that nazi's were just 'misunderstood'.
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On March 06 2018 02:23 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:18 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore. You’re doing a fine job projecting your moms love of FOX and your brothers behavior (at this point I hardly know if you can accurately judge what he’s doing, but that’s beside the point) onto all Trump supporters everywhere. I understand that family conflict affects everyone deeply, but politics shouldn’t run your life and it shouldn’t make you give up on America or smear Republicans based on your anecdotes. I am 100% convinced that FOX News is the overwhelmingly dominant reason why Republicans still exist. There's other outlets (I have mentioned Breitbart and InfoWars) but they're small fries by comparison; the Republican base is overwhelmingly old people that get their news from cable TV, and FOX is the only news outlet they trust (or, perhaps, are ever exposed to). Do you honestly think that there's a significant number of Americans who both [a] strongly support Trump, and [b] regularly get news from non-rightwing media that they trust?
You just outright declared that it’s an outlet I trust how long ago? Listen, bud, you should start with not declaring what’s true about other people that you haven’t the faintest clue about.
Then wait a couple weeks to let your pathetic justifications for ignoring everything people unlike you have to say fade out of memory. I’m perfectly content to let you argue with straw men of your own making until you’re blue in the face. When you want an actual debate with real people that think different solutions for the country will bring about a prosperous economy and a healthy society, I’ll be here. I don’t want to waste my breath on “Is the right parallel reality believers? Why or why not?” when cooler heads (or hot heads today in the future) might eventually get to “Does this or that policy take the country in the right direction? Why or why not?”
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On March 06 2018 02:35 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:33 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 02:26 LegalLord wrote:
Honestly if you can’t deal with the fact that family members will disagree with your politics, often aggressively so, then that’s on you. It’s not that they became neo-Nazis while you remained sane, it’s that you let the Trump psychosis permeate your life.
I guess the only consolation is that there are a lot of such individuals around so you have company. That's a great point, LegalLord. The problem isn't that my own family member is openly calling for my extermination (and presumably his own afterwards, though I am not sure if he's thought that far ahead); it's that I let the "Trump psychosis" permeate my life. I guess I'm the intolerant and insane one. Based on what you’re posting here? Damn straight you’re the insane one of the two. Complete with the requisite hyperbole.
You know literally nothing about my family except what I've told you, but you're making a clear judgment about which of us is the sane one. Do you see the problem here? I hope Putin pays you to troll, because sounding like a complete moron for free is a bad deal.
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On March 06 2018 02:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:23 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 02:18 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore. You’re doing a fine job projecting your moms love of FOX and your brothers behavior (at this point I hardly know if you can accurately judge what he’s doing, but that’s beside the point) onto all Trump supporters everywhere. I understand that family conflict affects everyone deeply, but politics shouldn’t run your life and it shouldn’t make you give up on America or smear Republicans based on your anecdotes. I am 100% convinced that FOX News is the overwhelmingly dominant reason why Republicans still exist. There's other outlets (I have mentioned Breitbart and InfoWars) but they're small fries by comparison; the Republican base is overwhelmingly old people that get their news from cable TV, and FOX is the only news outlet they trust (or, perhaps, are ever exposed to). Do you honestly think that there's a significant number of Americans who both [a] strongly support Trump, and [b] regularly get news from non-rightwing media that they trust? You just outright declared that it’s an outlet I trust how long ago? Listen, bud, you should start with not declaring what’s true about other people that you haven’t the faintest clue about. Then wait a couple weeks to let your pathetic justifications for ignoring everything people unlike you have to say fade out of memory. I’m perfectly content to let you argue with straw men of your own making until you’re blue in the face. When you want an actual debate with real people that think different solutions for the country will bring about a prosperous economy and a healthy society, I’ll be here. I don’t want to waste my breath on “Is the right parallel reality believers? Why or why not?” when cooler heads (or hot heads today in the future) might eventually get to “Does this or that policy take the country in the right direction? Why or why not?”
You haven't demonstrated that his argument is wrong though, you've just reacted very angrily to it.
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On March 06 2018 02:39 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:23 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 02:18 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore. You’re doing a fine job projecting your moms love of FOX and your brothers behavior (at this point I hardly know if you can accurately judge what he’s doing, but that’s beside the point) onto all Trump supporters everywhere. I understand that family conflict affects everyone deeply, but politics shouldn’t run your life and it shouldn’t make you give up on America or smear Republicans based on your anecdotes. I am 100% convinced that FOX News is the overwhelmingly dominant reason why Republicans still exist. There's other outlets (I have mentioned Breitbart and InfoWars) but they're small fries by comparison; the Republican base is overwhelmingly old people that get their news from cable TV, and FOX is the only news outlet they trust (or, perhaps, are ever exposed to). Do you honestly think that there's a significant number of Americans who both [a] strongly support Trump, and [b] regularly get news from non-rightwing media that they trust? You just outright declared that it’s an outlet I trust how long ago? Listen, bud, you should start with not declaring what’s true about other people that you haven’t the faintest clue about. Then wait a couple weeks to let your pathetic justifications for ignoring everything people unlike you have to say fade out of memory. I’m perfectly content to let you argue with straw men of your own making until you’re blue in the face. When you want an actual debate with real people that think different solutions for the country will bring about a prosperous economy and a healthy society, I’ll be here. I don’t want to waste my breath on “Is the right parallel reality believers? Why or why not?” when cooler heads (or hot heads today in the future) might eventually get to “Does this or that policy take the country in the right direction? Why or why not?” Counter argument.
The GOP's tax bill. Complete with tiny bribes for individual members, Trickle down economics that have never worked in the history of man and a tax cut for citizens to sell them on a candy that is written in to expire and turn into a tax increase years down the road when no one remembers it was the GOP that fucked them up the ass to give even more money to the rich corporations.
Actions speak louder then pretty words.
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EPT
