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On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers.
If you want to reach a Trump supporter you need to go offline, cause online there's an audience and when people debate in front of an audience their first instinct will always be to show moral certitude in the face of opposition; face to face you're more likely to be searching for common ground and there are ways for things to go more smoothly.
You can drop the list of things that don't work. Ideology isn't about getting everything right, it's about what facts matter. You can put a list of everything that's wrong with Trump, and if you don't hit one of the facts that matter to them, you're not getting through. First you need to figure out what Trump represents to that specific person, and whether there's an argument to be made against that. Sometimes there isn't; for example, if the person is a white evangelical and they follow Trump because their religious leader told them that Trump was the will of God, well, you aren't God, you're not getting through to them. Even in those cases you can still look for common ground btw, you just shouldn't expect to "win them over", you can make them a less formidable foe.
The biggest exploit that you can reach Trump supporters with is that there is a huge gap between the economic policies that Trump professed during the campaign and the economic policies that are typical of republicans. Economy tends to affect most people, so it's very rare that you'll face an ideology that doesn't care at all about the economy. Figure out whether they're on Trump side or on the republican side, and make them explain the contradiction to you. If they're on Trump side, I'm going to be able to reach them with that, since I have common ground being economically leftwing; and my goal will be to demonstrate that Trump has been lying to them, which I can make a good case for.
There are other ways though. You can talk to most people if you have the right context and the right expectations.
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On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society).
He is in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of the Western World lives in.
You're in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of Russia and now the lesser half of America lives in.
"We're all tribalists". Nope. Speak for yourself. Deflect harder.
This constant need to make the world Fair and Balanced, when it isn't. Only one political party is destroying America's reputation: Yours. Only one political party has sought to provide cover for the highest levels of treason imaginable. That's not a convenient fact for anyone, actually. But it is true.
Because of stuff like this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier which you continually ignore, just like you all ignore Trump's disasters, just like you ignore everything about the expired assault-rifle ban, just like you ignore a century's worth of tax-data that suggests that pretty much everything you do is wrong and backwards. Almost no one on the "right" argues in good faith. You all lie constantly, to such a degree, that people feel need to placate and cater to your lies for a bastardized version of "civility", or they're forced, like me, to simply abandon all pretense of hope and respect for you. Hence: this thread.
People like you are the reason American politics is dead. You could, and will, argue that people like me are killing politics by accusing people like you so harshly. But that's just not true at this point, if it ever was. Partisanship isn't inherently flawed (just inherently problematic), until one of the two parties abandons all of its integrity. Then the whole system is fucked. IDK what we do 2018, 2020, and beyond. Just elect Democrats full-time, while Republicans stay in some minority-bubble for the rest of their ignorant lives? I'm actually not okay with that. It's not good for anyone.
When 90% of the democratic societies of the world are telling you something (which is approximately Trump's approval ratings in European polling) -- they're not the echo-chamber. Your willingness to ignore them -- that is the obvious echo-chamber. Your political discourse is as earnest and real as Trump's State Department.
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On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with.
Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore.
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On March 06 2018 01:15 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
I don’t know why I would spend time trying to change the mind of Trump supporters when there are so many unaffiliated voters and unhappy moderate Republicans to attempt to win over. If conservatives get crushed in congress come November, who cares what Trump supporters believe? Because condemning a third of the country to 'unsalvageable deplorables' is kind of a troubling?
It is less than 1/3. I think self identifying Republicans are about 26% of the country.
But the reality is they don’t need me to win an election and I don’t need them. In theory I would like to win them over through successful policies once the election is over. But when it comes to obtaining the power to effect change, I don’t need their votes.
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On March 06 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:15 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
I don’t know why I would spend time trying to change the mind of Trump supporters when there are so many unaffiliated voters and unhappy moderate Republicans to attempt to win over. If conservatives get crushed in congress come November, who cares what Trump supporters believe? Because condemning a third of the country to 'unsalvageable deplorables' is kind of a troubling? It is less than 1/3. I think self identifying Republicans are about 26% of the country. But the reality is they don’t need me to win an election and I don’t need them. In theory I would like to win them over through successful policies once the election is over. But when it comes to obtaining the power to effect change, I don’t need their votes.
You're right as of 2018. But that's a dangerous attitude to have. The neo-fascist parties in Europe have multiplied in size compared to 20 years ago, and now they're starting to win or get close to winning elections. There is no guarantee that Trump's current unpopularity is going to cap off the far-right's growth in the USA for a long time.
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On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore.
that level of de-brainwashing isn't really feasible.
also, people don' talways change that much, if they seem far worse now, perhaps it simply means they were more quiet about it before.
I know there is a lot of research/info on how to more convincingly discuss with people, and on conflict resolution techniques in general; but I don't know what the actual techniques are, I just know they exist and can be found if you look for them.
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On March 06 2018 01:41 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:On March 06 2018 01:15 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
I don’t know why I would spend time trying to change the mind of Trump supporters when there are so many unaffiliated voters and unhappy moderate Republicans to attempt to win over. If conservatives get crushed in congress come November, who cares what Trump supporters believe? Because condemning a third of the country to 'unsalvageable deplorables' is kind of a troubling? It is less than 1/3. I think self identifying Republicans are about 26% of the country. But the reality is they don’t need me to win an election and I don’t need them. In theory I would like to win them over through successful policies once the election is over. But when it comes to obtaining the power to effect change, I don’t need their votes. You're right as of 2018. But that's a dangerous attitude to have. The neo-fascist parties in Europe have multiplied in size compared to 20 years ago, and now they're starting to win or get close to winning elections. There is no guarantee that Trump's current unpopularity is going to cap off the far-right's growth in the USA for a long time.
You can also look at what's trendy politically for the next generation, and if you spend five minutes on YouTube politics your hope gets to vanish pretty fast, it's magical like that. The trends go in a clear direction.
It makes a ton of sense to me. I buy into the argument that capitalism/liberalism, when unchallenged, naturally drifts to the right. There hasn't been a ton of challenge recently, neither in the US nor in Europe, and I view the resulting situation today to be evidence. But that's a very large argument and we're way past convincing specific people.
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On March 06 2018 01:41 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:On March 06 2018 01:15 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
I don’t know why I would spend time trying to change the mind of Trump supporters when there are so many unaffiliated voters and unhappy moderate Republicans to attempt to win over. If conservatives get crushed in congress come November, who cares what Trump supporters believe? Because condemning a third of the country to 'unsalvageable deplorables' is kind of a troubling? It is less than 1/3. I think self identifying Republicans are about 26% of the country. But the reality is they don’t need me to win an election and I don’t need them. In theory I would like to win them over through successful policies once the election is over. But when it comes to obtaining the power to effect change, I don’t need their votes. You're right as of 2018. But that's a dangerous attitude to have. The neo-fascist parties in Europe have multiplied in size compared to 20 years ago, and now they're starting to win or get close to winning elections. There is no guarantee that Trump's current unpopularity is going to cap off the far-right's growth in the USA for a long time.
I don’t really consider it that dangerous. I didn’t say that the 26% of the country shouldn’t have a voice in government or shouldn’t be able to participate. Nor am I going to lose my mind if my congress members work with Republicans on a bill while governing. I just don’t see any reason to put in a lot of effort to changing their mind every 2 years.
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On March 06 2018 01:13 Gorsameth wrote:
I'd judge Obama fairly well for actually trying and partially succeeding on setting America on a course for better healthcare.
That sorta stuff scores a lot higher for me then 'leaving behind a decent economy' ect.
He's kind of the beneficiary of Republican propaganda (Obamacare!) tying him closely to it. While the ACA was passed during him term, it was largely something the entire Democratic party (the progressives, the so-called corporate Dems, the Blue Dogs and all the rest) had planned once they took power that year. I would even argue if Clinton had won that year she might have gotten a stronger final product. Remember, Obama wasn't even "for" Obamacare originally - for example, he was against the individual mandate which is one of the fundamental components of the legislation.
I would honestly give Pelosi and Reid more credit than Obama for the creation and passage of the ACA. Obama arguably fumbled it a little when he tried to work across the aisle, etc. and didn't sell it as hard as he should have after passage. But in the end he did do what was needed to be done to get it passed.
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On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least.
Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem.
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On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem.
well if you build up a system to fix the issue, and then someone comes and breaks it down I would not say you just gave a bandaid
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On March 06 2018 01:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:41 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:31 Plansix wrote:On March 06 2018 01:15 Gorsameth wrote:On March 06 2018 01:12 Plansix wrote:
I don’t know why I would spend time trying to change the mind of Trump supporters when there are so many unaffiliated voters and unhappy moderate Republicans to attempt to win over. If conservatives get crushed in congress come November, who cares what Trump supporters believe? Because condemning a third of the country to 'unsalvageable deplorables' is kind of a troubling? It is less than 1/3. I think self identifying Republicans are about 26% of the country. But the reality is they don’t need me to win an election and I don’t need them. In theory I would like to win them over through successful policies once the election is over. But when it comes to obtaining the power to effect change, I don’t need their votes. You're right as of 2018. But that's a dangerous attitude to have. The neo-fascist parties in Europe have multiplied in size compared to 20 years ago, and now they're starting to win or get close to winning elections. There is no guarantee that Trump's current unpopularity is going to cap off the far-right's growth in the USA for a long time. You can also look at what's trendy politically for the next generation, and if you spend five minutes on YouTube politics your hope gets to vanish pretty fast, it's magical like that. The trends go in a clear direction. It makes a ton of sense to me. I buy into the argument that capitalism/liberalism, when unchallenged, naturally drifts to the right. There hasn't been a ton of challenge recently, neither in the US nor in Europe, and I view that result to be evidence. But that's a very large argument and we're way past convincing specific people.
I don't know if it drifts to the right, but Capitalism is 100% aggressive. I get into this argument frequently with a couple of right wing friends who have a hate boner for Communism, and they keep coming back to 'if it's so great why did it fail?' and variants of that. My point has always been that Communism's big weakness is that it can only work if EVERYONE is a Communist. Communism isn't particularly expansionist and isn't particularly aggressive at the fundamental level. It wants a relatively closed economic system where everyone takes care of everyone else with as little hierarchical structure as possible to create something approaching equality.
Capitalism, on the other hand, sees this as a market that is being denied it. Ergo Communism must be destroyed. Capitalism doesn't just work ideally in a globalised market, it actively seeks to create those conditions on a structural level, because a new market is a new place where great profit can be made, and there is no 'enough' in Capitalism. More wealth must always be generated.
So maybe it's that inherent ideological aggression that makes it lean a bit more towards the right if unfettered.
On March 06 2018 02:02 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. well if you build up a system to fix the issue, and then someone comes and breaks it down I would not say you just gave a bandaid
RE: Obama, does it affect his standing that he was dealing with such an aggressively obstructionist legislature? Didn't one of the Republican folks state that his goal in the legislature was to make Obama a one-term President very shortly after the election? I'm sure I remember something to that effect. And he seemed to get a fair bit done regardless of that.
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On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The structural problem being the existence of the Republican party?
Not sure if its fair to expect Obama to 'fix' that problem.
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On March 06 2018 01:25 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). So you agree -- there is nothing I can say that will change your mind? We live in parallel realities? I mean, at this point the only thing we can do is debate the merits of the news we choose to believe. I can show you numerous examples of how FOX and Breitbart et al. have straight up lied, been extremely misleading, or been gravely erroneous with a microscopic correction/retraction. I can show you how many people would have to be in on this vast left-wing conspiracy for the thousands of media outlets in the world that aren't owned by the Murdochs, Sinclairs, and Mercers to be actively lying in order to undermine your views. I can show you numerous examples where FOX et al. have alleged some massive scandal, but right-wing politicians do nothing about it; whereas when every other media outlet alleges a massive scandal, the right-wing politicians take it seriously as if it's based in reality. I can show you how it is extremely suspicious that Trump meets with Rupert Murdoch on a weekly basis and have a demonstrable feedback loop for each other. I can do all these things, but what point is there? I'm sure you have a rationalization for every single argument I can make. It makes no difference what I say. You trust FOX. I trust the thousands of independent media outlets not owned by a rich mogul who has openly admitted to being favorable to the right-wing. Likely nothing but a direct intervention from God himself is going to change that.
I made it kinda obvious. Generalizing the other side as living in some kind of parallel reality makes it sure nobody will argue you out of your idiotic perspective and will just do the same back (if this idiot is strawmanning half the country as irredeemable head cases, maybe we let him live in his constructed reality). Echo chambers are so fun when you justify that your echo chamber is the only realistic option left.
Hell, your mental construction of who I am and what I trust puts you pretty low in my estimation. For your next trick, tell me my favorite brand of car and grocery store, because obviously your psychic powers have helped you reach these conclusions rofl.
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On March 06 2018 01:29 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). He is in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of the Western World lives in. You're in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of Russia and now the lesser half of America lives in. "We're all tribalists". Nope. Speak for yourself. Deflect harder. This constant need to make the world Fair and Balanced, when it isn't. Only one political party is destroying America's reputation: Yours. Only one political party has sought to provide cover for the highest levels of treason imaginable. That's not a convenient fact for anyone, actually. But it is true. Because of stuff like this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier which you continually ignore, just like you all ignore Trump's disasters, just like you ignore everything about the expired assault-rifle ban, just like you ignore a century's worth of tax-data that suggests that pretty much everything you do is wrong and backwards. Almost no one on the "right" argues in good faith. You all lie constantly, to such a degree, that people feel need to placate and cater to your lies for a bastardized version of "civility", or they're forced, like me, to simply abandon all pretense of hope and respect for you. Hence: this thread. People like you are the reason American politics is dead. You could, and will, argue that people like me are killing politics by accusing people like you so harshly. But that's just not true at this point, if it ever was. Partisanship isn't inherently flawed (just inherently problematic), until one of the two parties abandons all of its integrity. Then the whole system is fucked. IDK what we do 2018, 2020, and beyond. Just elect Democrats full-time, while Republicans stay in some minority-bubble for the rest of their ignorant lives? I'm actually not okay with that. It's not good for anyone. When 90% of the democratic societies of the world are telling you something (which is approximately Trump's approval ratings in European polling) -- they're not the echo-chamber. Your willingness to ignore them -- that is the obvious echo-chamber. Your political discourse is as earnest and real as Trump's State Department.
Operate like a tribalist, get called for being a tribalist. My tribe is the factual understanding of the whole world, your tribe is composed of ignorant Luddites. Next time you try to contest the characterization, don’t prove it right so very hard.
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On March 06 2018 02:04 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem. The structural problem being the existence of the Republican party? Not sure if its fair to expect Obama to 'fix' that problem.
I mean this is purely speculative but IF there's a crash in the next few years I'd imagine, as shocking as this might be to some people in here, that that would mainly be due to the failure under Obama's presidency to bring the banking sector to heel. From my understanding of it, there's a lotttt of very cheap money sloshing around markets right now due to the lending policies of the central agencies of the US, UK, ECB etc and that could end up in a crash. If that were to happen, I think Obama (or at least what happened under Obama's tenure, meaning the Republicans too) would be responsible.
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On March 06 2018 02:13 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:29 Leporello wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). He is in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of the Western World lives in. You're in an "echo-chamber" that 90% of Russia and now the lesser half of America lives in. "We're all tribalists". Nope. Speak for yourself. Deflect harder. This constant need to make the world Fair and Balanced, when it isn't. Only one political party is destroying America's reputation: Yours. Only one political party has sought to provide cover for the highest levels of treason imaginable. That's not a convenient fact for anyone, actually. But it is true. Because of stuff like this: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/03/12/christopher-steele-the-man-behind-the-trump-dossier which you continually ignore, just like you all ignore Trump's disasters, just like you ignore everything about the expired assault-rifle ban, just like you ignore a century's worth of tax-data that suggests that pretty much everything you do is wrong and backwards. Almost no one on the "right" argues in good faith. You all lie constantly, to such a degree, that people feel need to placate and cater to your lies for a bastardized version of "civility", or they're forced, like me, to simply abandon all pretense of hope and respect for you. Hence: this thread. People like you are the reason American politics is dead. You could, and will, argue that people like me are killing politics by accusing people like you so harshly. But that's just not true at this point, if it ever was. Partisanship isn't inherently flawed (just inherently problematic), until one of the two parties abandons all of its integrity. Then the whole system is fucked. IDK what we do 2018, 2020, and beyond. Just elect Democrats full-time, while Republicans stay in some minority-bubble for the rest of their ignorant lives? I'm actually not okay with that. It's not good for anyone. When 90% of the democratic societies of the world are telling you something (which is approximately Trump's approval ratings in European polling) -- they're not the echo-chamber. Your willingness to ignore them -- that is the obvious echo-chamber. Your political discourse is as earnest and real as Trump's State Department. Operate like a tribalist, get called for being a tribalist. My tribe is the factual understanding of the whole world, your tribe is composed of ignorant Luddites. Next time you try to contest the characterization, don’t prove it right so very hard.
lol, accusing someone else of being a Luddite.
"Trump Digs Coal"
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On March 06 2018 02:09 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:25 LightSpectra wrote:On March 06 2018 01:03 Danglars wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. And Trump supporters think the left wing lives in a parallel reality. Isn't tribalism fun? Why, I have absolutely apropos generalizations of the other side, but when the right generalizes me, it just misses all the diversity of thought and critical thinking! You're in an echo chamber of your own construction. People generally won't try to disabuse you of all your tribal thinking when your whole point is you're checking out from democratic governance (and you're really just looking for other people who think like you to pat you on the back for giving up on talking in civil society). So you agree -- there is nothing I can say that will change your mind? We live in parallel realities? I mean, at this point the only thing we can do is debate the merits of the news we choose to believe. I can show you numerous examples of how FOX and Breitbart et al. have straight up lied, been extremely misleading, or been gravely erroneous with a microscopic correction/retraction. I can show you how many people would have to be in on this vast left-wing conspiracy for the thousands of media outlets in the world that aren't owned by the Murdochs, Sinclairs, and Mercers to be actively lying in order to undermine your views. I can show you numerous examples where FOX et al. have alleged some massive scandal, but right-wing politicians do nothing about it; whereas when every other media outlet alleges a massive scandal, the right-wing politicians take it seriously as if it's based in reality. I can show you how it is extremely suspicious that Trump meets with Rupert Murdoch on a weekly basis and have a demonstrable feedback loop for each other. I can do all these things, but what point is there? I'm sure you have a rationalization for every single argument I can make. It makes no difference what I say. You trust FOX. I trust the thousands of independent media outlets not owned by a rich mogul who has openly admitted to being favorable to the right-wing. Likely nothing but a direct intervention from God himself is going to change that. I made it kinda obvious. Generalizing the other side as living in some kind of parallel reality makes it sure nobody will argue you out of your idiotic perspective and will just do the same back (if this idiot is strawmanning half the country as irredeemable head cases, maybe we let him live in his constructed reality). Echo chambers are so fun when you justify that your echo chamber is the only realistic option left.
His argument is quite clear and it's difficult to argue against it from my perspective.
- Fairness doctrine ends, people get to say whatever shit they want and call it news, rightwing talk radio and Fox News emerge.
- A bunch of talking points develop around that, people believe them.
- Other people correctly view those talking points to be manufactured to present a narrative.
- There's a gap between these two groups of people.
You can make the argument that it's the rightwing that is correct, and the other media are the ones doing the Fake News. But you can't really argue that the gap doesn't exist.
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On March 06 2018 01:31 LightSpectra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:28 zlefin wrote:On March 06 2018 00:50 LightSpectra wrote:
*haven't posted here in awhile*
Is there any point in talking to Trump supporters at this point? They live in a parallel reality to ours, where FOX/other Murdoch outlets/Breitbart/InfoWars are legitimate, honest journalistic outlets, and every other outlet in the entire world is part of a giant conspiracy to undermine the right-wing.
That's really what it comes down to. If you think FOX is genuinely "fair and balanced," then Trump (if you are morally capable of putting aside his active campaigning for a child molester, which even the FOX hosts stopped denying eventually) seems like a competent and well-meaning guy that's being undermined by career bureaucrats. If you give any credibility at all to CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, PBS, BBC, WaPo, NYT, the Guardian, Reuters, McClatchy, WSJ, LA Times, Vox, Bloomberg, etc. etc. then he's a corrupt, petulant moron of the highest degree being kept afloat by a Republican Party that is now complicit in the corruption.
After his refusal to divest his financial holdings, Charlottesville, DACA, Roy Moore, escalating civilian casualties in the Middle East/Africa, near-universal corruption in his cabinet, etc., I doubt there are any actual independents left. There's four groups now: the anti-Trumpers, the deluded ones who entrust their immortal souls to FOX [et al.], and the ones who know the pro-Trump media are liars but don't care because they're enthusiastically malicious. And a comparatively small group who don't pay any attention to the news and only know what they see on social media, but that sector is probably split roughly halfway between left- and right-wingers. whether there's a point depends on what your objective is, and on how ardent they are, and what topics you discuss. you're not gonna convince die-hard trumpists anymore than you'll get someone to give up their religion. seriously tryin to convince the less die hard is possible, but very difficult, and requires patience beyond my limits, as well as some skills/techniques i'm not that familiar with. Well, if you (and anyone else reading this) ever finds a way to de-brainwash someone from FOX, I'm all ears. My mom was a wonderfully kind and reasonable person until she retired. Now she watches FOX News several hours a day and has repeated some horrifyingly racist and fascist talking points she got from the tele. I have tried everything I know to demonstrate that FOX is untrustworthy compared to basically every other media outlet in the world, but she won't bite. It has literally torn my family apart. My brother (we are of Jewish ancestry, mind you) went on Facebook to openly shill for the Charlottesville Neo-Nazis, and now we're not on speaking terms anymore.
You’re doing a fine job projecting your moms love of FOX and your brothers behavior (at this point I hardly know if you can accurately judge what he’s doing, but that’s beside the point) onto all Trump supporters everywhere. I understand that family conflict affects everyone deeply, but politics shouldn’t run your life and it shouldn’t make you give up on America or smear Republicans based on your anecdotes.
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On March 06 2018 02:00 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2018 01:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 06 2018 00:58 kollin wrote:
We don't have the necessary perspective to judge Obama because I don't think we can yet fully perceive the economic effects of his fiscal policies (low interest rates etc). I guess not all the effects, but we recovered from the recession at least. Absolutely and that's commendable but if in the next few years we crash again, then at best he provided a band aid to a structural problem.
The republican party voted for the bail out(TARP) and then blamed the Democrats for the bail out to take back congress 2 years later. It is one of the most cynical political maneuvers I have ever seen. The Democrats never really got the chance to fix the structural problems, which will take more than 2 years to address.
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EPT
