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On November 18 2012 14:00 ExO_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:32 plogamer wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. What. Not being seen as an aggressor is a sign of weakness? Extremists can be wiped out if you win the hearts and minds of the moderate majority. In a more civilized part of the World maybe. But the middle east is not a place where this works, particularly with the raw hate there is in that region.
So you mean to say that the Middle East is uncivilized? This 'uncivilized' part of the world made an attempt at a seat in the UN. The British called the Indians 'uncivilized' when they sought sovereignty.
Please don't cast aside a whole portion of the world as 'uncivilized' simply based on the news media you experience at home. Go visit the middle east and see just how much more civilized you are. Experience their food, music, arts, literature; their culture, before you make such a judgement.
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Actually we would still probably give land if we thought it would lead to real long-lasting peace, like we have with jordan, and like we had for years with Egypt.
As far as I know Hamas isn't willing to directly deal with Israel, and acknowledge our existence (as a legitimate state), not to mention giving peace in return for land. They want ALL the land, and they're willing to fight a long attrition jihad (holy war) to achieve those ends.
To quote some Hamas official at a public speech - "we love death as much as the jews love life".
By the way, meanwhile in the west bank (the other part of the Palestinian people in the area) where they have elected to be led by a more progressive administration there are very little hostilities. They're not bombing us and we're not bombing them.
If the people in the Gaza strip, instead of electing a terrorist organization (Hamas) - elected the same administration as the West Bank (Fatah, led by Mahmoud Abbas)then maybe we would be negotiating land exchange and the split of Jerusalem as we speak.
As to the "claim" idea. It's irrelevant at this point who has the historical "right" to the lands. The bottom line is both people have a right to exist, and can co-exist and prosper if they so choose. In order to do this negotiations are required and both sides need to acknowledge each other.
Hypothetically, even if one side had 100% historical right to the lands - would that mean that they(the other party) had to go to exile and leave? Of course not. The facts of the land are that both Israel and the Palestinians are here to stay (hopefully), and they have to make do with that. Squabbling over history will achieve nothing.
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With this whole "giving land back", let's look at Texas and Mexico. Should America "give back" Texas? FUCK NO.
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On November 18 2012 14:54 Bulugulu wrote:
Actually we would still probably give land if we thought it would lead to real long-lasting peace, like we have with jordan, and like we had for years with Egypt.
As far as I know Hamas isn't willing to directly deal with Israel, and acknowledge our existence (as a legitimate state), not to mention giving peace in return for land. They want ALL the land, and they're willing to fight a long attrition jihad (holy war) to achieve those ends.
To quote some Hamas official at a public speech - "we love death as much as the jews love life".
By the way, meanwhile in the west bank (the other part of the Palestinian people in the area) where they have elected to be led by a more progressive administration there are very little hostilities. They're not bombing us and we're not bombing them.
If the people in the Gaza strip, instead of electing a terrorist organization (Hamas) - elected the same administration as the West Bank (Fatah, led by Mahmoud Abbas)then maybe we would be negotiating land exchange and the split of Jerusalem as we speak.
As to the "claim" idea. It's irrelevant at this point who has the historical "right" to the lands. The bottom line is both people have a right to exist, and can co-exist and prosper if they so choose. In order to do this negotiations are required and both sides need to acknowledge each other.
Hypothetically, even if one side had 100% historical right to the lands - would that mean that they(the other party) had to go to exile and leave? Of course not. The facts of the land are that both Israel and the Palestinians are here to stay (hopefully), and they have to make do with that. Squabbling over history will achieve nothing.
This is actually something that I mostly agree with. Great post.
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On November 18 2012 14:49 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:39 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 14:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them. Three questions: What's stopping them to attack right now? Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region? Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace? Nothing is stopping them, they are attacking. Of course they have a claim on ALL the lands they possess. Arabs tried to take Israeli land, lost the wars and territory as a result. Why shouldn't failing at attempt to annihilate a country have consequences. They will not get peace no matter how much land the give back. From your posts you seems to believe that terrorists fight like conventional armies? Is this actually how you see it? No, I understand how terrorists fight. Sorry for my past statements if they seemed contradictory. 1. Firstly you said that terrorist organizations will attack if Israel moves back. But they are attacking right now. So there is no reason to believe that the attacks will increase if Israel moves back, we can't really predict how it will go. We won't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they are asking for. Now, I'm not saying give it to them but to say that more terrorism will occur if Israel shows sympathy is quite contradictory to me. If America showed sympathy instead of bulldozing down homes in Iraq (as well as doing other inhuman things), then I bet public approval of them in the Middle East would be significantly. 2. So the land that Israel settled in the West Bank after signing the Oslo Accords is legitimately theirs? I keep on repeating that the international community does not recognize these lands and others, but you seem not to care about this. 3. Again, you don't know that.
1. You don't give away land because "you don't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they ask for."
Secondly, it's common sense that if you give terrorists what they ask for they'll ask for more. That's why not negotiating with terrorists is kind of a universal rule.
2. The international community also does not recognize the state of Palestine, but you ignore this? When the other party breaks their ends of the treaties, you don't keep your end just to look like the good guy. Tell me why you think Israel does not deserve the land they took over fighting defensive wars.
3. Again, I'm making a logical predicting based on past patterns. Again, you don't give up land because "maybe a miracle will happen and the Arabs will hold their end of the bargain." Again, Israel has tried giving back land for peace and got burned for it, why the would they try it again? That's stupid. Again, Israel was ready to give the Palestinians most of what they wanted and they turned it down when they thought they could have it all.
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On November 18 2012 15:01 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:39 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 14:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them. Three questions: What's stopping them to attack right now? Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region? Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace? Nothing is stopping them, they are attacking. Of course they have a claim on ALL the lands they possess. Arabs tried to take Israeli land, lost the wars and territory as a result. Why shouldn't failing at attempt to annihilate a country have consequences. They will not get peace no matter how much land the give back. From your posts you seems to believe that terrorists fight like conventional armies? Is this actually how you see it? No, I understand how terrorists fight. Sorry for my past statements if they seemed contradictory. 1. Firstly you said that terrorist organizations will attack if Israel moves back. But they are attacking right now. So there is no reason to believe that the attacks will increase if Israel moves back, we can't really predict how it will go. We won't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they are asking for. Now, I'm not saying give it to them but to say that more terrorism will occur if Israel shows sympathy is quite contradictory to me. If America showed sympathy instead of bulldozing down homes in Iraq (as well as doing other inhuman things), then I bet public approval of them in the Middle East would be significantly. 2. So the land that Israel settled in the West Bank after signing the Oslo Accords is legitimately theirs? I keep on repeating that the international community does not recognize these lands and others, but you seem not to care about this. 3. Again, you don't know that. 1. You don't give away land because "you don't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they ask for." Secondly, it's common sense that if you give terrorists what they ask for they'll ask for more. That's why not negotiating with terrorists is kind of a universal rule. 2. The international community also does not recognize the state of Palestine, but you ignore this? When the other party breaks their ends of the treaties, you don't keep your end just to look like the good guy. Tell me why you think Israel does not deserve the land they took over fighting defensive wars. 3. Again, I'm making a logical predicting based on past patterns. Again, you don't give up land because "maybe a miracle will happen and the Arabs will hold their end of the bargain." Again, Israel has tried giving back land for peace and got burned for it, why the would they try it again? That's stupid. Again, Israel was ready to give the Palestinians most of what they wanted and they turned it down when they thought they could have it all.
It seems as though you and I arguing is going nowhere. Bulugulu mentioned it great with his post. I keep on drawing up the land issue, I guess I have to realize that Hamas itself is making it hard for negotiations to take place. I just hope it works out for both parties, they get peace and can prosper together. There is random hatred going on over there about Muslim vs. Jews and this needs to stop. Both parties can work together, its just that history has taught us that the dominant party pretty much always comes on top. Hopefully, it changes this time.
Just copying and pasting what I edited before. Like I said way before, I don't support either side as it has done wrongs on a large scale. I just think we need to end the fighting there and actually get some negotiations going on peace. Diplomacy, in my opinion, is the best option in any war and Hamas is making it hard to do that. Like I said before, they are despicable people and I hate what they are doing to future generations by making it impossible to have peace talks.
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On November 18 2012 15:06 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 15:01 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 14:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:39 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 14:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:
[quote]
Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them. Three questions: What's stopping them to attack right now? Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region? Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace? Nothing is stopping them, they are attacking. Of course they have a claim on ALL the lands they possess. Arabs tried to take Israeli land, lost the wars and territory as a result. Why shouldn't failing at attempt to annihilate a country have consequences. They will not get peace no matter how much land the give back. From your posts you seems to believe that terrorists fight like conventional armies? Is this actually how you see it? No, I understand how terrorists fight. Sorry for my past statements if they seemed contradictory. 1. Firstly you said that terrorist organizations will attack if Israel moves back. But they are attacking right now. So there is no reason to believe that the attacks will increase if Israel moves back, we can't really predict how it will go. We won't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they are asking for. Now, I'm not saying give it to them but to say that more terrorism will occur if Israel shows sympathy is quite contradictory to me. If America showed sympathy instead of bulldozing down homes in Iraq (as well as doing other inhuman things), then I bet public approval of them in the Middle East would be significantly. 2. So the land that Israel settled in the West Bank after signing the Oslo Accords is legitimately theirs? I keep on repeating that the international community does not recognize these lands and others, but you seem not to care about this. 3. Again, you don't know that. 1. You don't give away land because "you don't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they ask for." Secondly, it's common sense that if you give terrorists what they ask for they'll ask for more. That's why not negotiating with terrorists is kind of a universal rule. 2. The international community also does not recognize the state of Palestine, but you ignore this? When the other party breaks their ends of the treaties, you don't keep your end just to look like the good guy. Tell me why you think Israel does not deserve the land they took over fighting defensive wars. 3. Again, I'm making a logical predicting based on past patterns. Again, you don't give up land because "maybe a miracle will happen and the Arabs will hold their end of the bargain." Again, Israel has tried giving back land for peace and got burned for it, why the would they try it again? That's stupid. Again, Israel was ready to give the Palestinians most of what they wanted and they turned it down when they thought they could have it all. It seems as though you and I arguing is going nowhere. Bulugulu mentioned it great with his post. I keep on drawing up the land issue, I guess I have to realize that Hamas itself is making it hard for negotiations to take place. I just hope it works out for both parties, they get peace and can prosper together. There is random hatred going on over there about Muslim vs. Jews and this needs to stop. Both parties can work together, its just that history has taught us that the dominant party pretty much always comes on top. Hopefully, it changes this time. Just copying and pasting what I edited before. Like I said way before, I don't support either side as it has done wrongs on a large scale. I just think we need to end the fighting there and actually get some negotiations going on peace. Diplomacy, in my opinion, is the best option in any war and Hamas is making it hard to do that. Like I said before, they are despicable people and I hate what they are doing to future generations by making it impossible to have peace talks.
Do you acknowledge though, that Islamic zealotry is the only thing keeping the conflict going? If I had your thought process that's the logic conclusion I would come to, and that's the only reason I support Israel, given I have absolutely 0 personal affiliation with any of the parties involved.
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On November 18 2012 15:12 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 15:06 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 15:01 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 14:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:39 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 14:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them. Three questions: What's stopping them to attack right now? Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region? Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace? Nothing is stopping them, they are attacking. Of course they have a claim on ALL the lands they possess. Arabs tried to take Israeli land, lost the wars and territory as a result. Why shouldn't failing at attempt to annihilate a country have consequences. They will not get peace no matter how much land the give back. From your posts you seems to believe that terrorists fight like conventional armies? Is this actually how you see it? No, I understand how terrorists fight. Sorry for my past statements if they seemed contradictory. 1. Firstly you said that terrorist organizations will attack if Israel moves back. But they are attacking right now. So there is no reason to believe that the attacks will increase if Israel moves back, we can't really predict how it will go. We won't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they are asking for. Now, I'm not saying give it to them but to say that more terrorism will occur if Israel shows sympathy is quite contradictory to me. If America showed sympathy instead of bulldozing down homes in Iraq (as well as doing other inhuman things), then I bet public approval of them in the Middle East would be significantly. 2. So the land that Israel settled in the West Bank after signing the Oslo Accords is legitimately theirs? I keep on repeating that the international community does not recognize these lands and others, but you seem not to care about this. 3. Again, you don't know that. 1. You don't give away land because "you don't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they ask for." Secondly, it's common sense that if you give terrorists what they ask for they'll ask for more. That's why not negotiating with terrorists is kind of a universal rule. 2. The international community also does not recognize the state of Palestine, but you ignore this? When the other party breaks their ends of the treaties, you don't keep your end just to look like the good guy. Tell me why you think Israel does not deserve the land they took over fighting defensive wars. 3. Again, I'm making a logical predicting based on past patterns. Again, you don't give up land because "maybe a miracle will happen and the Arabs will hold their end of the bargain." Again, Israel has tried giving back land for peace and got burned for it, why the would they try it again? That's stupid. Again, Israel was ready to give the Palestinians most of what they wanted and they turned it down when they thought they could have it all. It seems as though you and I arguing is going nowhere. Bulugulu mentioned it great with his post. I keep on drawing up the land issue, I guess I have to realize that Hamas itself is making it hard for negotiations to take place. I just hope it works out for both parties, they get peace and can prosper together. There is random hatred going on over there about Muslim vs. Jews and this needs to stop. Both parties can work together, its just that history has taught us that the dominant party pretty much always comes on top. Hopefully, it changes this time. Just copying and pasting what I edited before. Like I said way before, I don't support either side as it has done wrongs on a large scale. I just think we need to end the fighting there and actually get some negotiations going on peace. Diplomacy, in my opinion, is the best option in any war and Hamas is making it hard to do that. Like I said before, they are despicable people and I hate what they are doing to future generations by making it impossible to have peace talks. Do you acknowledge though, that Islamic zealotry is the only thing keeping the conflict going? If I had your thought process that's the logic conclusion I would come to, and that's the only reason I support Israel, given I have absolutely 0 personal affiliation with any of the parties involved.
I think that the fact that Hamas controls the people and spreads to them propaganda is one reason that the violence is going, yes. I mean, these guys tell children that Jews are bad people from the day they are born. Hamas should stop being kids and give up on the fact that they will ever get the land fully back.
Like I said, both parties have done wrong, Israel and Hamas alike. I don't think there is anyone who would argue otherwise. But both parties can come together and get real peace done.
EDIT: Actually, no wait, Israel and Hamas cannot get peace done mainly because Hamas won't allow it. I think that Hamas should be eliminated and then a new party come out and get real peace done, as mentioned above.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 18 2012 13:53 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:52 oneofthem wrote:
yea but when you punish the populace for extremist group actions, viewing the whole thing on a collective agent level, you are not actually helping anyone, including yourself. Hamas is not an extremist group, they are THE populous group.
Lol you talk as if these two things are mutually exclusive. They are clearly not when an internationally recognised terrorist organisation gets voted in democratically on the false promises of schools and hospitals.
I also just wanted to thank everyone for actually maintaining mostly intelligent debate on this topic for 60+ pages - this may be a record for TL on this topic  i hope it keeps going.
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On November 18 2012 15:28 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:53 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:52 oneofthem wrote:
yea but when you punish the populace for extremist group actions, viewing the whole thing on a collective agent level, you are not actually helping anyone, including yourself. Hamas is not an extremist group, they are THE populous group. Lol you talk as if these two things are mutually exclusive. They are clearly not when an internationally recognised terrorist organisation gets voted in democratically on the false promises of schools and hospitals. I also just wanted to thank everyone for actually maintaining mostly intelligent debate on this topic for 60+ pages - this may be a record for TL on this topic i hope it keeps going.
The person I quoted used the word extremist to convey a small group. (A perfectly valid way to interpret the word, given that political stance is a relative measure) Of course my response uses the word in the same context.
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It doesn't specifically say they leveled the cabinet building from what I see, it just says some government buildings were hit.
"Israeli aircraft also bombed Hamas government buildings in Gaza on Saturday, including the offices of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and a police headquarters."
The article also mentions that there is a lot of pressure to de-escalate from the uk and the us, and the egyptian president said there are some indications a ceasefire may occur, but it's still unclear.
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This is really nuts. Sounds like this is just the end of Palestine, wow.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 18 2012 15:32 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 15:28 bkrow wrote:On November 18 2012 13:53 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:52 oneofthem wrote:
yea but when you punish the populace for extremist group actions, viewing the whole thing on a collective agent level, you are not actually helping anyone, including yourself. Hamas is not an extremist group, they are THE populous group. Lol you talk as if these two things are mutually exclusive. They are clearly not when an internationally recognised terrorist organisation gets voted in democratically on the false promises of schools and hospitals. I also just wanted to thank everyone for actually maintaining mostly intelligent debate on this topic for 60+ pages - this may be a record for TL on this topic i hope it keeps going. The person I quoted used the word extremist to convey a small group. (A perfectly valid way to interpret the word, given that political stance is a relative measure) Of course my response uses the word in the same context.
you might want to address my post explaining what i meant then.
actually dont. it's irrelevant to the point.
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On November 18 2012 14:56 DigiGnar wrote:
With this whole "giving land back", let's look at Texas and Mexico. Should America "give back" Texas? FUCK NO.
The difference is that there are not any refugees anymore from the Texas Revolution or the Mexican-American War. If there were, then YES, we should compensate them generously. Do you think that America should start bombing Mexico? After all, they pose a much greater threat to American citizens than Gazans do to Israelis, yet we haven't dropped a single bomb on them!
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On November 18 2012 16:03 HunterX11 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:56 DigiGnar wrote:
With this whole "giving land back", let's look at Texas and Mexico. Should America "give back" Texas? FUCK NO. Do you think that America should start bombing Mexico? After all, they pose a much greater threat to American citizens than Gazans do to Israelis, yet we haven't dropped a single bomb on them!
Uh... what?
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the public opinion of israel has been in steady decline for a long time in norway. this will not help.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 18 2012 16:10 Craze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 16:03 HunterX11 wrote:On November 18 2012 14:56 DigiGnar wrote:
With this whole "giving land back", let's look at Texas and Mexico. Should America "give back" Texas? FUCK NO. Do you think that America should start bombing Mexico? After all, they pose a much greater threat to American citizens than Gazans do to Israelis, yet we haven't dropped a single bomb on them! Uh... what?
dat drug trade.
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EPT
