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Jerusalem as its capital. I don't want to go into this because its not going to happen... That's the red flag...
I don't think Hamas if they were give the west bank would do anything, but if things did.
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On November 18 2012 13:10 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:06 rEpulse wrote: I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. This is very true, but I think they would look at it as the United Nation will only say "Thank you", but on the ground if things started go bad from the decision, how many lives would it cost? It would cost a lot. I don't think Hamas would be pushing its luck though. In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and former US President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[57] In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights."[58] In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group's support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: "We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital."[59] On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated that, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees", and that "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles".
If you give us a huge portion of your land and your capital we can have peace.... if we feel like it. Still not recognizing you though.
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On November 18 2012 13:19 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:10 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:06 rEpulse wrote: I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. This is very true, but I think they would look at it as the United Nation will only say "Thank you", but on the ground if things started go bad from the decision, how many lives would it cost? It would cost a lot. I don't think Hamas would be pushing its luck though. In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and former US President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[57] In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights."[58] In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group's support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: "We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital."[59] On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated that, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees", and that "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles". If you give us a huge portion of your land and your capital we can have peace.... if we feel like it. Still not recognizing you though.
That seems like a fair deal for land that has been cited by illegal by the United Nations. Also, where does it say that Hamas will not recognize them? One more thing, I'm not sure if this 100% accurate, but 1967 borders were that Jerusalem was split 50/50 between Israel and Palestine.
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On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these.
Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the original sin issue, the whose land is it really issue, the blah holy city of god blah etc are all ideological pressure points venting the real problem.
the most important real world impact is how palestinians are treated in the advanced israeli economy. of course you can't integrate everyone, especially legit extremists. but the most striking feature in that region is the stark contrast of living conditions merely a stone's throw away. surely israel realizes making palestine more livable is good for itself.
the legalistic form of the many arguments floating around should not be mistaken for the genuine moral issue at hand. no matter what state someone is from, or what his or her ancestors did, that person, as she exists in front of you in flesh and blood, should be given rights accorded to any citizen.
back in the old days the simple solution would be a genocide, drive them to the sea. this doesn't work. but the mentality that prompts genocide still exists, unable to accept any other solution.
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On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet.
What. Not being seen as an aggressor is a sign of weakness? Extremists can be wiped out if you win the hearts and minds of the moderate majority.
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On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet.
It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance.
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On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance.
I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yea but when you punish the populace for extremist group actions, viewing the whole thing on a collective agent level, you are not actually helping anyone, including yourself.
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On November 18 2012 13:52 oneofthem wrote:
yea but when you punish the populace for extremist group actions, viewing the whole thing on a collective agent level, you are not actually helping anyone, including yourself.
Hamas is not an extremist group, they are THE populous group.
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On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate.
So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel.
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On November 18 2012 13:32 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. What. Not being seen as an aggressor is a sign of weakness? Extremists can be wiped out if you win the hearts and minds of the moderate majority.
In a more civilized part of the World maybe. But the middle east is not a place where this works, particularly with the raw hate there is in that region.
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 18 2012 13:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:19 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:10 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:06 rEpulse wrote: I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. This is very true, but I think they would look at it as the United Nation will only say "Thank you", but on the ground if things started go bad from the decision, how many lives would it cost? It would cost a lot. I don't think Hamas would be pushing its luck though. In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and former US President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[57] In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights."[58] In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group's support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: "We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital."[59] On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated that, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees", and that "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles". If you give us a huge portion of your land and your capital we can have peace.... if we feel like it. Still not recognizing you though. That seems like a fair deal for land that has been cited by illegal by the United Nations. Also, where does it say that Hamas will not recognize them? One more thing, I'm not sure if this 100% accurate, but 1967 borders were that Jerusalem was split 50/50 between Israel and Palestine.
UN resolution 242 at the end of 1967 war calls for return of territories for peace, not "all the" territories. that was to be negotiated between the warring parties.
Hamas's 1988 charter clearly calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state. afaik, a long term truce of a decade is not the same as peace. it is just a chance for rearmament.
The capital was split in two between Israel and Jordan between the years 1948-1967. significant difference.
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On November 18 2012 14:02 bahunto28 wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On November 18 2012 13:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:19 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:10 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:06 rEpulse wrote: I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. This is very true, but I think they would look at it as the United Nation will only say "Thank you", but on the ground if things started go bad from the decision, how many lives would it cost? It would cost a lot. I don't think Hamas would be pushing its luck though. In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and former US President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[57] In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights."[58] In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group's support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: "We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital."[59] On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated that, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees", and that "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles". If you give us a huge portion of your land and your capital we can have peace.... if we feel like it. Still not recognizing you though. That seems like a fair deal for land that has been cited by illegal by the United Nations. Also, where does it say that Hamas will not recognize them? One more thing, I'm not sure if this 100% accurate, but 1967 borders were that Jerusalem was split 50/50 between Israel and Palestine. UN resolution 242 at the end of 1967 war calls for return of territories for peace, not "all the" territories. that was to be negotiated between the warring parties. Hamas's 1988 charter clearly calls for the replacement of Israel and the Palestinian Territories with an Islamic Palestinian state. afaik, a long term truce of a decade is not the same as peace. it is just a chance for rearmament. The capital was split in two between Israel and Jordan between the years 1948-1967. significant difference.
The first principal of U.N Resolution 242 is "Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict". I may have misunderstood what you said so sorry if it seems I am going against you.
Your second sentence does not make sense either. Hamas with its public announcement has gone back from the 1988 charter to a much more peaceful view and two-state solution with Israel. I don't know if there is anything to suggest that they will start bombing again if they get want they want.
The third point you are right. Sorry for that statement.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 18 2012 13:53 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:52 oneofthem wrote:
yea but when you punish the populace for extremist group actions, viewing the whole thing on a collective agent level, you are not actually helping anyone, including yourself. Hamas is not an extremist group, they are THE populous group.
doubt very much the extreme elements, whatever organization, represents the majority of hte population itself. this is even true for nazis.
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On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel.
It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them.
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On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them.
Three questions:
What's stopping them to attack right now?
Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region?
Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace?
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On November 18 2012 14:24 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them. Three questions: What's stopping them to attack right now? Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region? Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace?
Nothing is stopping them, they are attacking.
Of course they have a claim on ALL the lands they possess. Arabs tried to take Israeli land, lost the wars and territory as a result. Why shouldn't failing at attempt to annihilate a country have consequences.
They will not get peace no matter how much land the give back. As a result they should, and have, stopped trying to get peace this way.
From your posts you seems to believe that terrorists fight like conventional armies? Is this actually how you see it?
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On November 18 2012 10:44 soon.Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:23 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? It's --> Israel wouldn't give up land for peace because peace is not on the table.It's not --> Peace is not on the table because Israel wouldn't give up land for peace. Wait what? Israel won't give up land for peace? ![[image loading]](http://www.theocracywatch.org/maps_before_after_six_day_war.jpg) What happened to all of Egypt? Surely Israel didn't...give it up for peace! ![[image loading]](http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQP8U4Vqhf0Ob6hlPyTPR7zYCjebbHxKLZRB8UbCjG3nT0_HsEBA) Surely this isn't a picture of ISRAELI SOLDIERS dragging OTHER ISRAELIES out of Gush Katif, so that Israel could give Gaza to the Arabs for peace? Seriously, what are you saying...?
I think you should read again with less blood in your eyes.
If you didn't notice, the guy you're arguing against is on your side.
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On November 18 2012 14:39 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 14:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 14:15 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:50 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 13:33 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 13:27 catabowl wrote:On November 18 2012 12:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. Incorrect. If Israel backs down from the West Bank, it will be a sign of weakness and all the terrorist organizations in the Middle East will attack. The extremist of Islam and Iran have already stated they want Israel WIPED OFF the planet. It would be stupid for them to attack. Israel has a much bigger army, would of international support for not provoking any war, it would be huge blunder for them to attack. Plus, all the terrorist organizations would not stand a chance against Israel who have like a hugeass army compared to them. In 1967 and 1973, two NATIONS attacked Israel, and were destroyed brutally within less than 1 month. Terrorist organizations won't stand a chance. I don't think you quite understand how terrorist organizations operate. So, just curious, whats stopping them from operating the way they usually do right now? As someone said before me, giving up land is not a sign of weakness and would not make more terrorist organizations against Israel. It's a sign that the terrorists are having a strong tangible effect and encourages hostile nations to invest more into them. Three questions: What's stopping them to attack right now? Do you honestly think that Israel has a claim to ALL the lands it possesses in the region? Do you think Israel should give back any of the land it has in order to make peace? Nothing is stopping them, they are attacking. Of course they have a claim on ALL the lands they possess. Arabs tried to take Israeli land, lost the wars and territory as a result. Why shouldn't failing at attempt to annihilate a country have consequences. They will not get peace no matter how much land the give back. From your posts you seems to believe that terrorists fight like conventional armies? Is this actually how you see it?
No, I understand how terrorists fight. Sorry for my past statements if they seemed contradictory.
1. Firstly you said that terrorist organizations will attack if Israel moves back. But they are attacking right now. So there is no reason to believe that the attacks will increase if Israel moves back, we can't really predict how it will go. We won't know how the terrorists will respond after they get what they are asking for. Now, I'm not saying give it to them but to say that more terrorism will occur if Israel shows sympathy is quite contradictory to me. If America showed sympathy instead of bulldozing down homes in Iraq (as well as doing other inhuman things), then I bet public approval of them in the Middle East would be significantly.
2. So the land that Israel settled in the West Bank after signing the Oslo Accords is legitimately theirs? I keep on repeating that the international community does not recognize these lands and others, but you seem not to care about this.
3. Again, you don't know that.
EDIT: It seems as though you and I arguing is going nowhere. Bulugulu mentioned it great with his post. I keep on drawing up the land issue, I guess I have to realize that Hamas itself is making it hard for negotiations to take place. I just hope it works out for both parties, they get peace and can prosper together. There is random hatred going on over there about Muslim vs. Jews and this needs to stop. Both parties can work together, its just that history has taught us that the dominant party pretty much always comes on top. Hopefully, it changes this time.
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EPT
