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On November 18 2012 10:49 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:26 Integra wrote:
So since this has been going on forever and I have do admit I don't really understand what the conflict is about, could someone briefly explain each major stand point of each side to as of why they are fighting? Did Side X get too much land at one point and side Y felt bad and tried to get it back and then it escalated, or what? Israel pretty much came into existence through the usage of terrorist activities. Once it came into existence, it took land away from the Palestinians when winning wars or when forcefully removing previously inhabited Palestinian settlements. There were two main wars: Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, both of which Israel won, the former being the one which Israel absolutely destroyed Egypt, Syria, and other Islamic countries supporting the Palestinian cause. After the Yom Kippur War, efforts were made for peace, however both sides have broken these peace treaties in some way or the other. For example, Israel continued settling in Palestinian settlements after the Oslo Accords and Hamas continued to fire rockets at Israel, targeting civilians, while Israel showed major restraint. Some minor things happened along the way: Israel blockaded ports and Hamas rockets continually pounded Israeli land, including targeting civilians purposefully, stating that they are enemies too. Hamas is also the very definition of a terrorist organization, killing civilians, spreading bullshit propaganda, and using their own civilians as a meatshield.
And this just proves that you are probably better off finding a different source for your history of the war 
try this documentary:
http://www.amazon.com/The-50-Years-War-Israel/dp/B00004TX2W
its unbiased and neutral, pretty much.
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On November 18 2012 11:04 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 10:26 Integra wrote:
So since this has been going on forever and I have do admit I don't really understand what the conflict is about, could someone briefly explain each major stand point of each side to as of why they are fighting? Did Side X get too much land at one point and side Y felt bad and tried to get it back and then it escalated, or what? Israel pretty much came into existence through the usage of terrorist activities. Once it came into existence, it took land away from the Palestinians when winning wars or when forcefully removing previously inhabited Palestinian settlements. There were two main wars: Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, both of which Israel won, the former being the one which Israel absolutely destroyed Egypt, Syria, and other Islamic countries supporting the Palestinian cause. After the Yom Kippur War, efforts were made for peace, however both sides have broken these peace treaties in some way or the other. For example, Israel continued settling in Palestinian settlements after the Oslo Accords and Hamas continued to fire rockets at Israel, targeting civilians, while Israel showed major restraint. Some minor things happened along the way: Israel blockaded ports and Hamas rockets continually pounded Israeli land, including targeting civilians purposefully, stating that they are enemies too. Hamas is also the very definition of a terrorist organization, killing civilians, spreading bullshit propaganda, and using their own civilians as a meatshield. And this just proves that you are probably better off finding a different source for your history of the war try this documentary: http://www.amazon.com/The-50-Years-War-Israel/dp/B00004TX2Wits unbiased and neutral, pretty much.
How about you counteract my points to lead to some discussion? I'm open to submit to any points I have stated wrong.
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On November 18 2012 11:04 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 10:26 Integra wrote:
So since this has been going on forever and I have do admit I don't really understand what the conflict is about, could someone briefly explain each major stand point of each side to as of why they are fighting? Did Side X get too much land at one point and side Y felt bad and tried to get it back and then it escalated, or what? Israel pretty much came into existence through the usage of terrorist activities. Once it came into existence, it took land away from the Palestinians when winning wars or when forcefully removing previously inhabited Palestinian settlements. There were two main wars: Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, both of which Israel won, the former being the one which Israel absolutely destroyed Egypt, Syria, and other Islamic countries supporting the Palestinian cause. After the Yom Kippur War, efforts were made for peace, however both sides have broken these peace treaties in some way or the other. For example, Israel continued settling in Palestinian settlements after the Oslo Accords and Hamas continued to fire rockets at Israel, targeting civilians, while Israel showed major restraint. Some minor things happened along the way: Israel blockaded ports and Hamas rockets continually pounded Israeli land, including targeting civilians purposefully, stating that they are enemies too. Hamas is also the very definition of a terrorist organization, killing civilians, spreading bullshit propaganda, and using their own civilians as a meatshield. And this just proves that you are probably better off finding a different source for your history of the war try this documentary: http://www.amazon.com/The-50-Years-War-Israel/dp/B00004TX2Wits unbiased and neutral, pretty much.
A very good documentary. Jews were actually living alongside arabs but the partition plan by the UN was not accepted by the arabs. When Israel came into existence they were instantly attacked by their neighbours. Israel won, occupied land and the circle of violence began with extremists on both sides.
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On November 18 2012 11:13 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 11:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 10:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 10:26 Integra wrote:
So since this has been going on forever and I have do admit I don't really understand what the conflict is about, could someone briefly explain each major stand point of each side to as of why they are fighting? Did Side X get too much land at one point and side Y felt bad and tried to get it back and then it escalated, or what? Israel pretty much came into existence through the usage of terrorist activities. Once it came into existence, it took land away from the Palestinians when winning wars or when forcefully removing previously inhabited Palestinian settlements. There were two main wars: Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, both of which Israel won, the former being the one which Israel absolutely destroyed Egypt, Syria, and other Islamic countries supporting the Palestinian cause. After the Yom Kippur War, efforts were made for peace, however both sides have broken these peace treaties in some way or the other. For example, Israel continued settling in Palestinian settlements after the Oslo Accords and Hamas continued to fire rockets at Israel, targeting civilians, while Israel showed major restraint. Some minor things happened along the way: Israel blockaded ports and Hamas rockets continually pounded Israeli land, including targeting civilians purposefully, stating that they are enemies too. Hamas is also the very definition of a terrorist organization, killing civilians, spreading bullshit propaganda, and using their own civilians as a meatshield. And this just proves that you are probably better off finding a different source for your history of the war try this documentary: http://www.amazon.com/The-50-Years-War-Israel/dp/B00004TX2Wits unbiased and neutral, pretty much. How about you counteract my points to lead to some discussion?
most of what you said is about right, but if you want a history of the war, you need the whole thing, more than you will get off a forum. I didn't mean that to be offensive to you...
You cannot write the history of this war in one paragraph.
I know the guy asked for a brief answer, but its really impossible. You cannot write the history in so few words. There will always be something that you missed out, some israeli guy will come and tell you that you missed the most important bit, and then some leftie will say no that's not important listen to me etc... Look through this thread, it has already happened more than once.
For the record that is my last post in this topic, because i'm getting fed up of having the same discussions over and over again. This has gone full circle about 5 times in the last few days.
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On November 18 2012 11:20 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 11:13 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 11:04 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 10:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 10:26 Integra wrote:
So since this has been going on forever and I have do admit I don't really understand what the conflict is about, could someone briefly explain each major stand point of each side to as of why they are fighting? Did Side X get too much land at one point and side Y felt bad and tried to get it back and then it escalated, or what? Israel pretty much came into existence through the usage of terrorist activities. Once it came into existence, it took land away from the Palestinians when winning wars or when forcefully removing previously inhabited Palestinian settlements. There were two main wars: Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, both of which Israel won, the former being the one which Israel absolutely destroyed Egypt, Syria, and other Islamic countries supporting the Palestinian cause. After the Yom Kippur War, efforts were made for peace, however both sides have broken these peace treaties in some way or the other. For example, Israel continued settling in Palestinian settlements after the Oslo Accords and Hamas continued to fire rockets at Israel, targeting civilians, while Israel showed major restraint. Some minor things happened along the way: Israel blockaded ports and Hamas rockets continually pounded Israeli land, including targeting civilians purposefully, stating that they are enemies too. Hamas is also the very definition of a terrorist organization, killing civilians, spreading bullshit propaganda, and using their own civilians as a meatshield. And this just proves that you are probably better off finding a different source for your history of the war try this documentary: http://www.amazon.com/The-50-Years-War-Israel/dp/B00004TX2Wits unbiased and neutral, pretty much. How about you counteract my points to lead to some discussion? most of what you said is about right, but if you want a history of the war, you need the whole thing, more than you will get off a forum. I didn't mean that to be offensive to you... You cannot write the history of this war in one paragraph. I know the guy asked for a brief answer, but its really impossible. You cannot write the history in so few words. There will always be something that you missed out, some israeli guy will come and tell you that you missed the most important bit, and then some leftie will say no that's not important listen to me etc... Look through this thread, it has already happened more than once. For the record that is my last post in this topic, because i'm getting fed up of having the same discussions over and over again. This has gone full circle about 5 times in the last few days.
Agreed, these discussions are really going nowhere. I just happen nothing serious happens between the two sides (as in full out war between Israel vs. Egypt, Syria, etc.) Personally, I hate both sides for the atrocities they have committed, sometimes Israel has been the aggressor and other times Palestine has. It is a clusterfuck.
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On November 18 2012 11:04 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:49 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 10:26 Integra wrote:
So since this has been going on forever and I have do admit I don't really understand what the conflict is about, could someone briefly explain each major stand point of each side to as of why they are fighting? Did Side X get too much land at one point and side Y felt bad and tried to get it back and then it escalated, or what? Israel pretty much came into existence through the usage of terrorist activities. Once it came into existence, it took land away from the Palestinians when winning wars or when forcefully removing previously inhabited Palestinian settlements. There were two main wars: Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War, both of which Israel won, the former being the one which Israel absolutely destroyed Egypt, Syria, and other Islamic countries supporting the Palestinian cause. After the Yom Kippur War, efforts were made for peace, however both sides have broken these peace treaties in some way or the other. For example, Israel continued settling in Palestinian settlements after the Oslo Accords and Hamas continued to fire rockets at Israel, targeting civilians, while Israel showed major restraint. Some minor things happened along the way: Israel blockaded ports and Hamas rockets continually pounded Israeli land, including targeting civilians purposefully, stating that they are enemies too. Hamas is also the very definition of a terrorist organization, killing civilians, spreading bullshit propaganda, and using their own civilians as a meatshield. And this just proves that you are probably better off finding a different source for your history of the war try this documentary: http://www.amazon.com/The-50-Years-War-Israel/dp/B00004TX2Wits unbiased and neutral, pretty much.
Awesome, thnx!
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Really hope people there stay safe! Crazy stuff is going on right now as seen from images and the media. This conflict is just going deeper and deeper.
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On November 18 2012 10:32 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:05 sekritzzz wrote:On November 18 2012 08:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 18 2012 08:35 travis wrote:I'll reply to this in blocks + Show Spoiler +
While I presume that the white sections are indeed the land that was privately owned by Jews, the land in green was not privately owned by Arabs.
Only a tiny percentage of land in Palestine was privately owned. The various categories of land ownership included:
Mulk: privately owned in the Western sense.
Miri: Land owned by the government (originally the Ottoman crown) and suitable for agricultural use. Individuals could purchase a deed to cultivate this land and pay a tithe to the government. Ownership could be transferred only with the approval of the state. Miri rights could be transferred to heirs, and the land could be sub-let to tenants. If the owner died without an heir or the land was not cultivated for three years, the land would revert to the state.
Mahlul: Uncultivated Miri lands that would revert to the state, in theory after three years.
Mawat (or Mewat): So-called “dead”, unreclaimed land. It constituted about 50 to 60% of the land in Palestine. It belonged to the government. ...If the land had been cultivated with permission, it would be registered, at least under the Mandate, free of charge.
By the early 1940s Jews owned about one third of Mulk land in Palestine and Arabs about two-thirds. The vast majority of the total land, however, belonged to the government, meaning that when the state of Israel was established, it became legally Israel's. (I believe that about 77% of the land was owned by the government, assuming 6 million dunams of private land as shown in this invaluable webpage on the topic from which I got much of this information.)
To say that the green areas were "Palestinian" land is simply a lie.
I am not seeing any proof of this in the webpage he "sources. Actually there was a survey of palestine done before the UN created Israel and it contradicts what this site says. Map of land ownership survey done for UNLand OwnershipAn actual source+ Show Spoiler +
In the case of this version of the map, the lie is even worse, as the implication is that pre-1948 Palestine was an entirely Arab country with no Jews and no Jewish land ownership. Of course, before 1948 the word "Palestinian" more often than not referred to Palestinian Jews, not Palestinian Arabs. For example, the Palestine exhibit at the 1939 World's Fair was entirely Jewish, the Palestine Orchestra was entirely Jewish, the Palestine soccer team was almost entirely Jewish, and so forth.
I can't really prove or disprove the precise accuracy of the map at this point but this guy does nothing of the sort either.. actually his first sentence is just stupid as the map clearly does show territory owned by zionists(zionists, not jews..) This guy does know that jews native to Palestine were arabic right? Sure there was a lot of european jewish immigrants but his last 2 sentences are just ridiculous.. + Show Spoiler +
onto the next map
While this is a somewhat accurate representation of the partition plan (with the notable exception of Jerusalem, which was meant to be an international city,), it has nothing to do with land ownership.
what? howso + Show Spoiler +
The entire purpose of this map is to make it appear that Israel has been grabbing Arab land consistently, to serve as a bridge between maps 1 and 3. What is not said, of course, is that Israel accepted the partition and the Arabs did not, so as a result Israel in 1949 looked like it does in map 3.
I have no idea wtf he just said. + Show Spoiler +
Map 3 is still a lie, however, because in no way was the green land "Palestinian" at that time. Gaza was administered by Egypt and the West Bank annexed by Jordan. No one at the time spoke about a Palestinian Arab state on the areas controlled by Arab states - only in Israel.
Ummm, that doesn't mean anything. this guy is just being an asshole. he then links to another post saying it addresses the 4th map but it doesn't... at all. Hard to counter posts when the post themselves make no sense. It's a waste of time, just move along to those who try and bridge the middle gap. Agree, decent discussion on hot topics is very hard to come by which is why I try to mostly limit myself to posting news than actually discussing it here. Especially when the topic is related to Israel, considering they have an actual army unit dedicated to spreading Israeli propaganda on all internet forums. You do understand how ridiculous you made yourself sound by saying that right? It doesn't matter if they do or not- the idea that someone in Israel right now is spreading propaganda on team fucking liquid. Whew lol. (If you're not getting it- you're doing exactly what you chastised people for. It's outrageous, unsubstantiated claims that make discussions so fruitless.)
Maybe you need to understand what I'm actually saying before making random assumptions, because you know the famous saying, when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me.
I never said the people posting here are Israeli agents. I am just taking my own precautionary measures to avoid wasting my own time on all forums I visit on hot topics. Discussing hot topics is best done person-to-person, and that is my own personal experience.
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On November 18 2012 11:48 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 10:32 Probe1 wrote:On November 18 2012 10:05 sekritzzz wrote:On November 18 2012 08:52 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 18 2012 08:35 travis wrote:I'll reply to this in blocks + Show Spoiler +
While I presume that the white sections are indeed the land that was privately owned by Jews, the land in green was not privately owned by Arabs.
Only a tiny percentage of land in Palestine was privately owned. The various categories of land ownership included:
Mulk: privately owned in the Western sense.
Miri: Land owned by the government (originally the Ottoman crown) and suitable for agricultural use. Individuals could purchase a deed to cultivate this land and pay a tithe to the government. Ownership could be transferred only with the approval of the state. Miri rights could be transferred to heirs, and the land could be sub-let to tenants. If the owner died without an heir or the land was not cultivated for three years, the land would revert to the state.
Mahlul: Uncultivated Miri lands that would revert to the state, in theory after three years.
Mawat (or Mewat): So-called “dead”, unreclaimed land. It constituted about 50 to 60% of the land in Palestine. It belonged to the government. ...If the land had been cultivated with permission, it would be registered, at least under the Mandate, free of charge.
By the early 1940s Jews owned about one third of Mulk land in Palestine and Arabs about two-thirds. The vast majority of the total land, however, belonged to the government, meaning that when the state of Israel was established, it became legally Israel's. (I believe that about 77% of the land was owned by the government, assuming 6 million dunams of private land as shown in this invaluable webpage on the topic from which I got much of this information.)
To say that the green areas were "Palestinian" land is simply a lie.
I am not seeing any proof of this in the webpage he "sources. Actually there was a survey of palestine done before the UN created Israel and it contradicts what this site says. Map of land ownership survey done for UNLand OwnershipAn actual source+ Show Spoiler +
In the case of this version of the map, the lie is even worse, as the implication is that pre-1948 Palestine was an entirely Arab country with no Jews and no Jewish land ownership. Of course, before 1948 the word "Palestinian" more often than not referred to Palestinian Jews, not Palestinian Arabs. For example, the Palestine exhibit at the 1939 World's Fair was entirely Jewish, the Palestine Orchestra was entirely Jewish, the Palestine soccer team was almost entirely Jewish, and so forth.
I can't really prove or disprove the precise accuracy of the map at this point but this guy does nothing of the sort either.. actually his first sentence is just stupid as the map clearly does show territory owned by zionists(zionists, not jews..) This guy does know that jews native to Palestine were arabic right? Sure there was a lot of european jewish immigrants but his last 2 sentences are just ridiculous.. + Show Spoiler +
onto the next map
While this is a somewhat accurate representation of the partition plan (with the notable exception of Jerusalem, which was meant to be an international city,), it has nothing to do with land ownership.
what? howso + Show Spoiler +
The entire purpose of this map is to make it appear that Israel has been grabbing Arab land consistently, to serve as a bridge between maps 1 and 3. What is not said, of course, is that Israel accepted the partition and the Arabs did not, so as a result Israel in 1949 looked like it does in map 3.
I have no idea wtf he just said. + Show Spoiler +
Map 3 is still a lie, however, because in no way was the green land "Palestinian" at that time. Gaza was administered by Egypt and the West Bank annexed by Jordan. No one at the time spoke about a Palestinian Arab state on the areas controlled by Arab states - only in Israel.
Ummm, that doesn't mean anything. this guy is just being an asshole. he then links to another post saying it addresses the 4th map but it doesn't... at all. Hard to counter posts when the post themselves make no sense. It's a waste of time, just move along to those who try and bridge the middle gap. Agree, decent discussion on hot topics is very hard to come by which is why I try to mostly limit myself to posting news than actually discussing it here. Especially when the topic is related to Israel, considering they have an actual army unit dedicated to spreading Israeli propaganda on all internet forums. You do understand how ridiculous you made yourself sound by saying that right? It doesn't matter if they do or not- the idea that someone in Israel right now is spreading propaganda on team fucking liquid. Whew lol. (If you're not getting it- you're doing exactly what you chastised people for. It's outrageous, unsubstantiated claims that make discussions so fruitless.) Maybe you need to understand what I'm actually saying before making random assumptions, because you know the famous saying, when you assume, you make an ass out of u and me. I never said the people posting here are Israeli agents. I am just taking my own precautionary measures to avoid wasting my own time on all forums I visit on hot topics. Discussing hot topics is best done person-to-person, and that is my own personal experience.
Why post here then? I mean I don't really have an opinion on your comments or Probe1's but frankly if you prefer 1-1 then why come to an online forum. Word of mouth is good and all, but it's not the easiest way to transfer data over millions upon millions of people no?
Anywho, just my two cents : P Where has this topic gone since I posted last, we were on Isreal compared to Hamas when I left. And any new events? War broke yet?
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On November 18 2012 08:09 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 05:18 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
This is irrelevant, they tried appeasement, it failed because the Palestinians don't want a peace that both sides can live with. Their goal is not to acquire a fair share of land and resources to live now, their goal is to destroy Israel so they can live with magic man after they die. All Israel can do is play hardball until the resistance is crushed to the point of irrelevance or die trying. It doesn't matter how bad the current strategy is when there are no alternatives. The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. Yea, it's baffling that people can talk about stealing land and illegally building settlements when the Arab's original intent was to "Push the Jews into the sea" and kill every single man, woman and child.
You should be careful about looking at history through set phrases that "some one" said and every one repeat. They are more ideological than historic. Just like the "make the desert bloom" or "tibet is a natural part of china" talk.
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On November 18 2012 12:01 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:09 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. Yea, it's baffling that people can talk about stealing land and illegally building settlements when the Arab's original intent was to "Push the Jews into the sea" and kill every single man, woman and child. You should be careful about looking at history through set phrases that "some one" said and every one repeat. They are more ideological than historic. Just like the "make the desert bloom" or "tibet is a natural part of china" talk.
An even bigger issue is when you take one or two "leaders" at the time and make it reflective of the entire Muslim/Arab (Yes I know they're different before the one guy on TL who sits trying to find corrections like fucking wikipedia jumps in). It would be like using Stalin and hitler to encapsulate the Russian and German people. It's a massive farce.
And as you also noted, they're definitely not "historic" as much as a principle at a time.
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Here's what I ultimately believe: Karma.
No matter who is right or wrong, how Israel solves the conflict will reflect in history. As we very well know, the tides of time are cruel to all equally. US (Israel's biggest ally?) is already declining as a super power. Maybe it will take decades, maybe centuries, but there will be a time when Israel will not be the dominant power in the region.
And no, the Arab world will not forget. Much like how the Jewish culture never forgot its roots through all of years spent in diaspora.
Then the cycle begins anew, an eye for an eye.
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Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
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On November 18 2012 12:47 rEpulse wrote:
Here's how I look at this situation.
Israel has the right to protect itself. I do know that they have used protection has a way to start a war before, but this time it was Hamas who started it by not controlling the other groups in Palestine from lobbing rockets into Israel. Israel hits back with bombing Hamas centers, then rockets start coming into Israel. All it is is a tit for tat, eye for an eye.
I do not agree with the whole deal where the UK gave Israel the land, and they should have handled it better, but here we are today so why is it still going on? If I'm correct, and I might be wrong the Palestinians have right to the West Bank, which Israel has settlers settle in it, and everybody in the world has said no you can't do that, but they continue. Here's the reason why Israel won't let Palestine have the West Bank. Its because they are afraid if they do that weapons could come in from Iran through Jordan, and Syria which we all know most likely happen, all we have to do is look at what Iran has done for Hezbollah, and Hamas. Here's the crazy thing about both the Palestinians, and the Israelis both came from the same civilization that lived on Cyprus long ago, once again someone will have to look this up because i'm not 100% sure, but the only thing that separates them now is nationality, and religion.
Israel won't stop bombing the Palestinians until they stop shooting rocks, or the other way. The only thing that maybe might settle this all, and this is just wishful thinking is if maybe Hamas denounces the support from Iran, then maybe everything would go a lot smoother.
I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these.
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I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these.
This is very true, but I think they would look at it as the United Nation will only say "Thank you", but on the ground if things started go bad from the decision, how many lives would it cost? Iran is still getting weapons into Gaza, it would be even more of a hassle to control the west bank.
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I feel Iran nuke incoming over Israel.
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On November 18 2012 13:06 rEpulse wrote:Show nested quote + I look at this and agree with you. But if Israel withdraws from the West Bank, it will be a major sign to the rest of the international community that they are willing to strive for peace and the United Nations as well as other organizations will support them for their decision. Israel can always monitor the activities that go in the West Bank and can at any point take that land back if they are under any form of threat. The international community would be much more appreciative with Israel if they took steps like these. This is very true, but I think they would look at it as the United Nation will only say "Thank you", but on the ground if things started go bad from the decision, how many lives would it cost?
It would cost a lot. I don't think Hamas would be pushing its luck though.
In an April 2008 meeting between Hamas leader Khaled Meshal and former US President Jimmy Carter, an understanding was reached in which Hamas agreed it would respect the creation of a Palestinian state in the territory seized by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, provided this were ratified by the Palestinian people in a referendum. Hamas later publicly offered a long-term truce with Israel if Israel agreed to return to its 1967 borders and grant the "right of return" to all Palestinian refugees.[57] In November 2008, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh re-stated that Hamas was willing to accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders, and offered Israel a long-term truce "if Israel recognized the Palestinians' national rights."[58] In 2009, in a letter to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, Haniyeh repeated his group's support for a two-state settlement based on 1967 borders: "We would never thwart efforts to create an independent Palestinian state with borders [from] June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital."[59] On 1 December 2010, Ismail Haniyeh again repeated that, "We accept a Palestinian state on the borders of 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital, the release of Palestinian prisoners, and the resolution of the issue of refugees", and that "Hamas will respect the results [of a referendum] regardless of whether it differs with its ideology and principles".
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the self protection logic is pretty primitive. it has no proportionality built in (that's a late and recent introduction), and closes other paths of conflict resolution that are so much superior.
of cousre if the partiicpants realize this they also would have realized the inhumanity of their conflict itself.
:/
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EPT
