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On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 05:18 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 05:06 reincremate wrote:
[quote]
You can't kill them all. Or you can, but there will be splash damage from nuclear fallout. Unless you kill every single Palestinian there will still be resistance to the occupation. Also there are still tons of other Arab nations that can attack Israel. This is irrelevant, they tried appeasement, it failed because the Palestinians don't want a peace that both sides can live with. Their goal is not to acquire a fair share of land and resources to live now, their goal is to destroy Israel so they can live with magic man after they die. All Israel can do is play hardball until the resistance is crushed to the point of irrelevance or die trying. It doesn't matter how bad the current strategy is when there are no alternatives. The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face.
Dropping some bombs doesn't really seem like getting slapped on the wrist...
At any rate, the real reason things are escalating has nothing to do with threats of genocide or bombs. It involves the growing discontent with the PA on both sides-Israeli and Palestinian. If the PA goes it will only get worse, yet a vocal portion of Israel's government is currently threatening to no longer fund it and are pushing as hard as they can against its current flag issue. Abbas needs Israel's help and the generals agree-the politicians, however, do not.
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On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 05:18 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 05:06 reincremate wrote:
[quote]
You can't kill them all. Or you can, but there will be splash damage from nuclear fallout. Unless you kill every single Palestinian there will still be resistance to the occupation. Also there are still tons of other Arab nations that can attack Israel. This is irrelevant, they tried appeasement, it failed because the Palestinians don't want a peace that both sides can live with. Their goal is not to acquire a fair share of land and resources to live now, their goal is to destroy Israel so they can live with magic man after they die. All Israel can do is play hardball until the resistance is crushed to the point of irrelevance or die trying. It doesn't matter how bad the current strategy is when there are no alternatives. The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face.
I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords.
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On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 05:18 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
This is irrelevant, they tried appeasement, it failed because the Palestinians don't want a peace that both sides can live with. Their goal is not to acquire a fair share of land and resources to live now, their goal is to destroy Israel so they can live with magic man after they die. All Israel can do is play hardball until the resistance is crushed to the point of irrelevance or die trying. It doesn't matter how bad the current strategy is when there are no alternatives. The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords.
I don't understand the specific very well so I might be completely wrong. As far as I see it, after the wars, Palestine is basically Israeli controlled. Any land they allot to the Palestinians is their choice. Who's land are you saying they're building settlements on?
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On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 05:18 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
This is irrelevant, they tried appeasement, it failed because the Palestinians don't want a peace that both sides can live with. Their goal is not to acquire a fair share of land and resources to live now, their goal is to destroy Israel so they can live with magic man after they die. All Israel can do is play hardball until the resistance is crushed to the point of irrelevance or die trying. It doesn't matter how bad the current strategy is when there are no alternatives. The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords.
The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. The last time they tried it (Gaza pull-out) they had to create the Kadima party to create a coalition that could hold the majority without ultra conservative support. Then Kadima turned out to be a twisting-in-the-wind bunch of weaklings so the Israeli people went back to voting for the "we'll protect you none of the other parties can" Likud coalition.
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On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit.
So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out?
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On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out?
It's --> Israel wouldn't give up land for peace because peace is not on the table.
It's not --> Peace is not on the table because Israel wouldn't give up land for peace.
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On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out?
They can't do it very much farther than they already have. Every time they've "traded land for peace" or made some other concession the Palestinians haven't held up their end so that strengthens the hand of those Israelis who don't want to make any concessions at all. Last time in 2005 like I said they had to create a whole new party just to make sure they could survive the political backlash.
And then Kadima turned out to suck and Hezbollah attacked and the Palestinians didn't stop attacking... so it didn't really work out.
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On November 18 2012 08:17 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:44 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
The Palestinians have a dreadful situation going on. Living on the Gaza Strip is right dangerous, violent, and absolutely horrible, its a situation that we cannot even imagine. You have to understand, negotiating with someone who continually takes land from you is not an easy situation and the hatred that is shown towards Israel is a result of Israel's own doing. How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. I don't understand the specific very well so I might be completely wrong. As far as I see it, after the wars, Palestine is basically Israeli controlled. Any land they allot to the Palestinians is their choice. Who's land are you saying they're building settlements on?
Israel built settlements after the Oslo Peace Accords even though provisions in those accords specified that they would not do so. The United Nations does not recognize most of the annexations that Israel has done in what they say are "Palestinian occupied territories".
From Wikipedia: The INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal.[8] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[9] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[10][11] The International Court of Justice[12] also says these settlements are illegal,[13][14] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[15] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[16] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[17][18
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On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out?
Isreal has given up land for peace in the past and it didn't cause the isreal government to fall then. I'm sure the other 2 thirds of the government would be happy to be the reason their people don't have to be afraid of the rockets falling from the sky.
what could really solve everyone's problems at this point would be to just have Jordan and Egypt absorb the Palestine lands or to at least have them moved away from isreals authority.
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On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:48 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
How about negotiating with someone who is willing to give a massive portion of their country to you, even though you send women and children bombs to blow them up? Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out?
If a minority can vote out a majority against the interests of the majority of the population and endanger the local population, regardless of sovereignty or political alignment, then the democratic system is already a failure. Israel is a pariah state. No one should be defending the actions of a governing body that represents a minority extremist faction with a specific agenda. It's not in the interest of the Jewish people to support such a governing system that routinely exercises military actions (note, exercises, not simply Threatens to) which in turn endanger their own populations from retaliation. But that's the internal affairs of the Jews living inside Israel, unless there is public outcry to remove their own government we don't have any say in the matter.
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On November 18 2012 08:23 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? Not giving a shit about Palestinian =/ not giving a shit about peace.
I'm not sure the ultra-conservatives really care about peace either. A substantial portion certainly value a large number of things much more than it, certainly. That's why any Israeli peace support has been schizophrenic since they became a sizable portion of the government-two chunks of the country have wildly different priorities (almost like the United States and dealing with the deficit).
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On November 18 2012 08:23 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:On November 18 2012 06:54 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
Oh trust me, its not easy from both sides. I support Israel trying to make peace (I'm a believer in a two-state solution even though it may never come into existence). And the country they are giving back to you are part of illegal settlements that Israel continually does on Palestinian lands. Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? They can't do it very much farther than they already have. Every time they've "traded land for peace" or made some other concession the Palestinians haven't held up their end so that strengthens the hand of those Israelis who don't want to make any concessions at all. Last time in 2005 like I said they had to create a whole new party just to make sure they could survive the political backlash. And then Kadima turned out to suck and Hezbollah attacked and the Palestinians didn't stop attacking... so it didn't really work out.
I genuinely believe that by taking out Hamas and other terrorist organizations which constantly derail peace talks and open fire on innocent Israeli civilians (my heart goes out to them), then peace can be achieved that may not be in the interests both sides now, but will later be recognized as being the right thing to do. The thing is, taking out Hamas and those other terrorist organizations is hard to do since they have the support of the local Palestinian community that they have brainwashed through propaganda.
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On November 18 2012 08:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:23 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? Not giving a shit about Palestinian =/ not giving a shit about peace. I'm not sure the ultra-conservatives really care about peace either. A substantial portion certainly value a large number of things much more than it, certainly. That's why any Israeli peace support has been schizophrenic since they became a sizable portion of the government.
But like someone mentioned, the ultra-conservatives are strengthened by the fact that previous peace treaties haven't been held up by the other party. They don't want to go for peace because peace is not possible, not the other way around.
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On November 18 2012 08:27 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:23 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? They can't do it very much farther than they already have. Every time they've "traded land for peace" or made some other concession the Palestinians haven't held up their end so that strengthens the hand of those Israelis who don't want to make any concessions at all. Last time in 2005 like I said they had to create a whole new party just to make sure they could survive the political backlash. And then Kadima turned out to suck and Hezbollah attacked and the Palestinians didn't stop attacking... so it didn't really work out. I genuinely believe that by taking out Hamas and other terrorist organizations which constantly derail peace talks and open fire on innocent Israeli civilians (my heart goes out to them), then peace can be achieved that may not be in the interests both sides now, but will later be recognized as being the right thing to do. The thing is, taking out Hamas and those other terrorist organizations is hard to do since they have the support of the local Palestinian community that they have brainwashed through propaganda.
What peace talks? To "talk" you need a body to speak to. Palestinians don't even have right of self determination as a country, they aren't recognized as a country. Israel and its Western Allies do not see any of the political or military parties with in Palestine as legitimate representative bodies. This "obstruct peace talks" is just plain bull shit. The US doesn't engage in peace talks with Cuba either, same story.
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On November 18 2012 08:27 Housemd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:23 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 06:57 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
Any issues of legality went out the window when children and women were used as living weapons to kill innocent civilians. ...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? They can't do it very much farther than they already have. Every time they've "traded land for peace" or made some other concession the Palestinians haven't held up their end so that strengthens the hand of those Israelis who don't want to make any concessions at all. Last time in 2005 like I said they had to create a whole new party just to make sure they could survive the political backlash. And then Kadima turned out to suck and Hezbollah attacked and the Palestinians didn't stop attacking... so it didn't really work out. I genuinely believe that by taking out Hamas and other terrorist organizations which constantly derail peace talks and open fire on innocent Israeli civilians (my heart goes out to them), then peace can be achieved that may not be in the interests both sides now, but will later be recognized as being the right thing to do. The thing is, taking out Hamas and those other terrorist organizations is hard to do since they have the support of the local Palestinian community that they have brainwashed through propaganda.
Fine and dandy except Palestinians support the Hamas, they're not a random organisation disruption the peace and operating in the shadow against the majority's wishes.
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The bigger settlements are actually a minor issue, as in the last offer for all the settlements that had too many people to evict, that same amount of land was offered in other areas as compensation. The disputed land is only 3% of all the land that is wanted for the palaistinian state. The refugee, unarmed/Jordan valley and Jerusalem issues are bigger.
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On November 18 2012 08:29 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 18 2012 08:23 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? Not giving a shit about Palestinian =/ not giving a shit about peace. I'm not sure the ultra-conservatives really care about peace either. A substantial portion certainly value a large number of things much more than it, certainly. That's why any Israeli peace support has been schizophrenic since they became a sizable portion of the government. But like someone mentioned, the ultra-conservatives are strengthened by the fact that previous peace treaties haven't been held up by the other party. They don't want to go for peace because peace is not possible, not the other way around.
They haven't been held up by both sides at certain points, but more by the Palestinians then the Israelis I will admit.
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On November 18 2012 08:30 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:27 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:23 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? They can't do it very much farther than they already have. Every time they've "traded land for peace" or made some other concession the Palestinians haven't held up their end so that strengthens the hand of those Israelis who don't want to make any concessions at all. Last time in 2005 like I said they had to create a whole new party just to make sure they could survive the political backlash. And then Kadima turned out to suck and Hezbollah attacked and the Palestinians didn't stop attacking... so it didn't really work out. I genuinely believe that by taking out Hamas and other terrorist organizations which constantly derail peace talks and open fire on innocent Israeli civilians (my heart goes out to them), then peace can be achieved that may not be in the interests both sides now, but will later be recognized as being the right thing to do. The thing is, taking out Hamas and those other terrorist organizations is hard to do since they have the support of the local Palestinian community that they have brainwashed through propaganda. Fine and dandy except Palestinians support the Hamas, they're not a random organisation disruption the peace and operating in the shadow against the majority's wishes.
Exactly, that's why I said that will be hard to do. Extremely hard to do.
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On November 18 2012 08:29 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 08:26 TheTenthDoc wrote:On November 18 2012 08:23 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 08:19 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On November 18 2012 08:11 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 08:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:59 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 07:26 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 07:04 Housemd wrote:
[quote]
...Not really. Both things were illegal and both things should not be condoned. Its like saying a person killed my family and took my house. I retaliate in an extremely horrific way to try and get my land back by killing the person's family. That doesn't make me right nor does it make the person who took my house right. If the Arabs dropped their weapons there would be peace. If the Israelis dropped their weapons Israel would be a graveyard. Do you agree or disagree with this? Because if you do, then your justifications for why it's hard for the Palestinians to negotiate are mute. Again, ISRAEL WOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP LAND FOR PEACE. They would have accepted a 2 state system in Palestine. It's the Palestinians who called in their Arab possy to get all of Palestine and they lost. No shit Israel would take the land they won in the war, why wouldn't they? That's not them stealing land, that's the Palestinians taking a bad gamble with their cake. You can't gamble your cake to try to win 2 cakes, lose it and call the winner a thief. P.S. There has never been such a thing as Palestinian land, they've never been the owners of that land. This is irrelevant to the current discussion but I wanted to point it out. Israel has continually taken land from Palestine. This has continued in recent years as well, most notably after Oslo Accords which bans Israel from taking land in the West Bank, however it does not stop building settlements. Israel has been continually condemned for their actions in taking away land by the United Nations, United States, Russia, United Kingdom, and various other organizations. To say that they won ALL those settlements through the usage of war is completely wrong, they have used various other methods. If Arabs dropped their arms, yes there would be peace. But that is what I am trying to say, it is hard for Arabs to drop their arms against a country that has blockaded ports, dropped white phosphorous, and took away land illegally. Personally, I feel as though it is Palestine's responsibility to get rid of Hamas and other terror organizations that continually deride peace talks, and come together for a two-state solution, something Israel would gladly accept in my opinion. Again, the Arabs tried 3 times to go into Israel and kill everyone. You do not think the Israeli's are justified to respond with blockading ports, taking land to strengthen their strategic position and dropping some bombs? If you can't even stand getting slapped on the wrist don't try to throw a grenade at someone's face. I never said they are not justified in that case. What I am saying is that the land they acquired was not all done when they won militarily. They have built settlements at times of peace, for example, after the Oslo Accords. The problem on the Israeli side is at least a third of Israel's population is made up of the ultra conservative Jews who really don't give two fucks about the Palestinians and have the power in the Knesset to take down any Israeli government that doesn't cater to them to their satisfaction. Totally stopping settlement building or dismantling long-standing legal (Israeli government approved) settlements would cause them to go apeshit. So do you agree, that you can't say that Israel would give up land for peace because the government would never support such a thing since the ultra-conservative Jews would vote them out? Not giving a shit about Palestinian =/ not giving a shit about peace. I'm not sure the ultra-conservatives really care about peace either. A substantial portion certainly value a large number of things much more than it, certainly. That's why any Israeli peace support has been schizophrenic since they became a sizable portion of the government. But like someone mentioned, the ultra-conservatives are strengthened by the fact that previous peace treaties haven't been held up by the other party. They don't want to go for peace because peace is not possible, not the other way around.
The problem is that you shouldn't take a situation where one negotiator is acting schizophrenic (like Palestine has in the past) and you are acting sensible and use the excuse that they're acting schizophrenic to walk away from negotiations-or worse, not walk away but become schizophrenic yourself.
Historically peace has broken down when ideology rather than pragmatism has fueled leaders of either side. The solution to that situation is NOT to become ideologically opposed to peace.
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Isreal has given up land for peace in the past and it didn't cause the isreal government to fall then.
All those other times didn't involve the West Bank or Gaza, except in 2005 when it took the creation of Kadima to ensure that the government had the strength in the Knesset to carry out Sharon's withdrawal plan.
If a minority can vote out a majority against the interests of the majority of the population and endanger the local population, regardless of sovereignty or political alignment, then the democratic system is already a failure.
The majority doesn't consider it against their interests. The majority was willing to try out total withdrawal in 2005, it didn't work. So they aren't anymore. It isn't like the ultra orthodox Jews hold the Knesset hostage, but they have the ability to do so and the guys at the top of Likud and Labor and the other non-orthodox parties know that if they go too far on appeasing international demands on settlements then the orthodox will go after them and a not-small amount of non-orthodox Jews will as well.
Israel is a pariah state.
Errr, no it isn't?
No one should be defending the actions of a governing body that represents a minority extremist faction with a specific agenda.
It's not exactly a minority faction, it's just the loudest pro-settlement faction and the one most likely to try to bring down the government in the Knesset if the government adopts an anti-settlement stance. Other factions that are pro-settlement are more willing to consider concessions but even they would not accept a total withdrawal from the West Bank or anything much past dismantling of illegal settlements. That's pretty much the biggest difference between the orthodox parties and the rest of the pro-settlement parties: orthodox parties don't really care if Jews set up settlements that the government hasn't approved, or even tacitly approve of such things happening, and they get pissed if the government is too zealous in their eyes at dismantling them. The other pro-settlement parties are only for government-approved settlement-building.
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EPT
