On November 18 2012 03:27 NesquiKGG wrote: they are just stupid to defend theirself against hamas without killing innocent lifes ...
But we HAVE to defend ourselves, and we go to such extreme measures to avoid harming innocent, when Hamas does the exact opposite. For Hamas, as long as there is a camera around, the loss of Palestinian lives is just good PR.
"During operation Cast Lead the Israeli defense forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population."
The words of Richard Kemp, a British colonel, testifying on behalf of the UN Watch organization:
On November 18 2012 03:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Hey guys, I'm just starting to do some research on this conflict (it's completely irrelevant to my areas of expertise), and I was hoping for some corrections/ feedback on what I've got so far. After following and reading the thread, looking through the posted articles, and watching the videos, this is what I've pretty much come up with at the most superficial level:
Most of the time, Hamas is the aggressor and pokes at Israel, in the same way a child taunts a bear. Then Hamas stupidly wonders why they get obliterated by Israel's superior army and technology. Israel is also really good at disproportionately wrecking Hamas (e.g., recently 1,100 Palestinians vs. 12 Israelis dead) and both sides seem to have no problem occasionally focusing down civilian areas to take out (or not even take out) leaders of the other side. And you'd think that Hamas would stop poking, but the Palestinians have been backed into such a corner, and pushed into such a small area of land (that's now so overpopulated and has such little support) that it's not completely surprising that they hate Israel.
Is this even remotely close? By all means, correct me if I'm completely off-base here. I'm looking for some education on the topic Thanks ^^
On November 18 2012 03:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Hey guys, I'm just starting to do some research on this conflict (it's completely irrelevant to my areas of expertise), and I was hoping for some corrections/ feedback on what I've got so far. After following and reading the thread, looking through the posted articles, and watching the videos, this is what I've pretty much come up with at the most superficial level:
Most of the time, Hamas is the aggressor and pokes at Israel, in the same way a child taunts a bear. Then Hamas stupidly wonders why they get obliterated by Israel's superior army and technology. Israel is also really good at disproportionately wrecking Hamas (e.g., recently 1,100 Palestinians vs. 12 Israelis dead) and both sides seem to have no problem occasionally focusing down civilian areas to take out (or not even take out) leaders of the other side. And you'd think that Hamas would stop poking, but the Palestinians have been backed into such a corner, and pushed into such a small area of land (that's now so overpopulated and has such little support) that it's not completely surprising that they hate Israel.
Is this even remotely close? By all means, correct me if I'm completely off-base here. I'm looking for some education on the topic Thanks ^^
This is a fairly good summary of the VERY recent history of the conflict, but i would suggest digging a bit deeper into the history of it for more context. Although any solution (if there will ever be one - doubtful) to the conflict will come from ignoring history, if you really want to know why the feelings run so deep, you should research it.
You guys have to understand that Israel gave Palastine the Gaza Strip, and now they are firing rockets upon them, even if Israel is overreacting they are a country in the middle east who seek constant threats from the surrounding nations. You have to have some sympathy for them.
Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot.
On November 18 2012 03:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Hey guys, I'm just starting to do some research on this conflict (it's completely irrelevant to my areas of expertise), and I was hoping for some corrections/ feedback on what I've got so far. After following and reading the thread, looking through the posted articles, and watching the videos, this is what I've pretty much come up with at the most superficial level:
Most of the time, Hamas is the aggressor and pokes at Israel, in the same way a child taunts a bear. Then Hamas stupidly wonders why they get obliterated by Israel's superior army and technology. Israel is also really good at disproportionately wrecking Hamas (e.g., recently 1,100 Palestinians vs. 12 Israelis dead) and both sides seem to have no problem occasionally focusing down civilian areas to take out (or not even take out) leaders of the other side. And you'd think that Hamas would stop poking, but the Palestinians have been backed into such a corner, and pushed into such a small area of land (that's now so overpopulated and has such little support) that it's not completely surprising that they hate Israel.
Is this even remotely close? By all means, correct me if I'm completely off-base here. I'm looking for some education on the topic Thanks ^^
Well the area of land isnt quite correct as all the disputed land is in the west bank and none of it in the gaza strip. Israel more or less closed the borders (alot of the people of gaza used to work in Israel) after the second intifada and Egypt have kept their side closed also. As far as focusing civilians, Hamas always aim at them, and Israel will do alot to avoid hitting them (see noams video above this post). Hamas have no real interest in peace and are funded by groups (mostly Iran) who want the opposite as Hamas can never defeat Israels military. Its about proxy wars and trying to gain international sympathy.
On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote: Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot.
If there is a solution to the problem this would be something like what it would look like. Unfortunately i don't think Hamas will allow that. They are invested in this war, and i think they will remain so until the bitter end. Even thinking about the number of civilian casualties that they will suffer because of this makes me shudder.
Israel does have a history of deliberately targeting civilians who are doing no harm to them (the flotilla - no we haven't forgotten). To think they will shy away form it when they believe that they are justified in it because of war (ie if they have to begin a ground operation) is just wrong.
I think Israel gets support by showcasing acts of terrorism and Hamas gets its support by hating on Israeli settlers. Both sides are at fault and have been for circa 60 years. With compounded hatred like that, what is Ban Ki Moon gonna do? One solution: GSTL Israel vs Palestine.
On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote: Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot.
The thing is, they want to live there. The negotiations main sticking points were 3% of the land (97%) of the claims were agreed upon in the refugees, the PLO want all those who are decedent to be able to return to Israel (note they are still living in refugee camps in Jordan/Lebanon/Eygpt/Syria (living as second class citizens as the government have no want to help them but use them as a tool against Israel). Israel wont wipe them out, proof of that is they have one of the fastest growing populations in the world. So no offence but you should study the issue alot more.
The problem is that the equilibrium is stable in the region.
Hamas will continue shooting rockets, as the massive casualties Israel inflicts simply entrenches Hamas' power in the region.
Israel will continue with artillery strikes, as Hamas' rocket strikes give more solidarity for current government proposals.
Resolution requires new equilibrium.
On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote: Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot.
There's a very good reason why it's in Israel's interest to make the lives of those around them unbearable. Unfortunately, it's also in the interests of Hamas as well.
On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote: Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot.
If there is a solution to the problem this would be something like what it would look like. Unfortunately i don't think Hamas will allow that. They are invested in this war, and i think they will remain so until the bitter end. Even thinking about the number of civilian casualties that they will suffer because of this makes me shudder.
Hamas is a petty, weak terrorist organization who won't accomplish anything. If Palestinian civilians want to remain in occupied Palestine as a show of solidarity with Hamas or for whatever other reason, they are free to do so. But a better way to ensure survival for the Palestinians would be to set up a new state of Palestine in like Nevada or something. Now of course the ideal solution would be if the Zionists ended the 60+ year occupation of Palestine, but that's much less feasible at this point.
Just because they're population is growing rapidly, doesn't mean they are not being confined to a tiny piece of land by a much more powerful nation. In fact, that just exacerbates their overpopulation problem. My point is that the rational thing to do in a situation in which you are getting owned and have no hope of winning is to leave, even if it means the oppressors win.
On November 18 2012 04:03 reincremate wrote: Hamas is a petty, weak terrorist organization who won't accomplish anything. If Palestinian civilians want to remain in occupied Palestine as a show of solidarity with Hamas or for whatever other reason, they are free to do so. But a better way to ensure survival for the Palestinians would be to set up a new state of Palestine in like Nevada or something. Now of course the ideal solution would be if the Zionists ended the 60+ year occupation of Palestine, but that's much less feasible at this point.
If Palestinians try to pull an Israel in Nevada...um, yeah. Good luck with that.
What I see as the future is Palestinians migrating en masse to surrounding countries, leading to social instability and war in the region.
On November 18 2012 04:03 reincremate wrote: Hamas is a petty, weak terrorist organization who won't accomplish anything. If Palestinian civilians want to remain in occupied Palestine as a show of solidarity with Hamas or for whatever other reason, they are free to do so. But a better way to ensure survival for the Palestinians would be to set up a new state of Palestine in like Nevada or something. Now of course the ideal solution would be if the Zionists ended the 60+ year occupation of Palestine, but that's much less feasible at this point.
If Palestinians try to pull an Israel in Nevada...um, yeah. Good luck with that.
On November 18 2012 03:55 Thecheef wrote: You guys have to understand that Israel gave Palastine the Gaza Strip, and now they are firing rockets upon them, even if Israel is overreacting they are a country in the middle east who seek constant threats from the surrounding nations. You have to have some sympathy for them.
They "gave" them the Gaza Strip after they took away everything else.
On November 18 2012 04:03 reincremate wrote: Hamas is a petty, weak terrorist organization who won't accomplish anything. If Palestinian civilians want to remain in occupied Palestine as a show of solidarity with Hamas or for whatever other reason, they are free to do so. But a better way to ensure survival for the Palestinians would be to set up a new state of Palestine in like Nevada or something. Now of course the ideal solution would be if the Zionists ended the 60+ year occupation of Palestine, but that's much less feasible at this point.
If Palestinians try to pull an Israel in Nevada...um, yeah. Good luck with that.
Well that's basically how Israel was formed.
Yeah, but Israel's formation was materially supported and legitimized by the superpowers of the time. If not the natives of the region.
Do you think there's any chance in hell America will gift Palestinian citizens surplus weapons, tanks, and land? Do you think America will even ALLOW millions of Palestinians to immigrate into Nevada?
On November 18 2012 00:41 NesquiKGG wrote: just as i mentioned before... Israel is good at telling lies and manipulating people .. these people who are tryin to defend what Israel did to Palastine the few years are the best example of brainwashed brats who got manipluated .... You can turn your head away and stop looking at the facts but Israel and America did kill Millions of People for "defending" theirselfs ... good example 9/11 and Alqaida ... they used this to kill Millions of Iraqis and Afghans.. Israel uses hamas to keep on their projects getting their "land" back (LOLZ) by killing more and more innocent people .. and dont ever EVER EVER try to tell me they are not innocent or hamas is to blame for their death.... i cant run arround and kill every single American just because their Soldiers (i call them Terrorists) messed up my Country...
a cursory search on google/wiki reveals your figures of "millions of people" are off the mark by orders of magnitudes. this is literally a fact. also, many of the civilian casualties are caused by explosive devices of the insurgents themselves. would you stop hurting the discussion with these mistaken claims?
unless of course, you've "seen things", in which case do go right ahead and quote your sources
google huh? I lost 2 Uncles 4 cousins 1 aunt and my Grandfather .. you know how? Americans randomly shooted at a supermarket just for fun ... you know what the News published? It was a suicide mission of one of the terrorists ... now let me ask you one thing.. you remember the last attack from Israel against Gaza when they killed like hundres of innocent people at the Beach? when the Turkish President asked that moron how people try to defend him while he did this thing everybody tried to shut him up ... why? why do people who try to tell the truth always get cut off? Answer me some Questions and i gonna stop hatin on Israel.
How do you feel as a neutral Person about what happened the last time when Israel attacked Gaza? (the Beach story and so on) + Show Spoiler +
How do you react when people kill a member of your Family or the whole Family? ( im sure you cant answer this cause you didnt go trough something like that and i wish you and the others here never gonna live through a hell like this )
You chose Hamas over peace, you face the consequences.
yeah but.. peace is quite shitty, with limited living space, razed down infrastructure, no mean on production, and ambargos both from sea and land. Sorry, I honestly can not ask palestinians to sit down and accept everything getting worse.
It is not a choice of peace or killing all the jews! for most people its a choice of survival.
On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote: Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot.
If there is a solution to the problem this would be something like what it would look like. Unfortunately i don't think Hamas will allow that. They are invested in this war, and i think they will remain so until the bitter end. Even thinking about the number of civilian casualties that they will suffer because of this makes me shudder.
Israel does have a history of deliberately targeting civilians who are doing no harm to them (the flotilla - no we haven't forgotten). To think they will shy away form it when they believe that they are justified in it because of war (ie if they have to begin a ground operation) is just wrong.
Although the flotilla had mostly human rights activists (who even as we speak are clearly outraged at the 40k deaths in Syria and have sent massive amounts of aids and flotillas there...) those who were killed were members of the IHH who were not human rights activists and came to cause trouble (watch the BBC show about it). So if you want to claim Israel targets civilians, link some proof please, and yes i am aware it has happend that soldiers have done it on purpose but they get trialed and its not Israeli policy.
On November 18 2012 00:41 NesquiKGG wrote: just as i mentioned before... Israel is good at telling lies and manipulating people .. these people who are tryin to defend what Israel did to Palastine the few years are the best example of brainwashed brats who got manipluated .... You can turn your head away and stop looking at the facts but Israel and America did kill Millions of People for "defending" theirselfs ... good example 9/11 and Alqaida ... they used this to kill Millions of Iraqis and Afghans.. Israel uses hamas to keep on their projects getting their "land" back (LOLZ) by killing more and more innocent people .. and dont ever EVER EVER try to tell me they are not innocent or hamas is to blame for their death.... i cant run arround and kill every single American just because their Soldiers (i call them Terrorists) messed up my Country...
a cursory search on google/wiki reveals your figures of "millions of people" are off the mark by orders of magnitudes. this is literally a fact. also, many of the civilian casualties are caused by explosive devices of the insurgents themselves. would you stop hurting the discussion with these mistaken claims?
unless of course, you've "seen things", in which case do go right ahead and quote your sources
google huh? I lost 2 Uncles 4 cousins 1 aunt and my Grandfather .. you know how? Americans randomly shooted at a supermarket just for fun ... you know what the News published? It was a suicide mission of one of the terrorists ... now let me ask you one thing.. you remember the last attack from Israel against Gaza when they killed like hundres of innocent people at the Beach? when the Turkish President asked that moron how people try to defend him while he did this thing everybody tried to shut him up ... why? why do people who try to tell the truth always get cut off? Answer me some Questions and i gonna stop hatin on Israel.
How do you feel as a neutral Person about what happened the last time when Israel attacked Gaza? (the Beach story and so on) + Show Spoiler +
How do you react when people kill a member of your Family or the whole Family? ( im sure you cant answer this cause you didnt go trough something like that and i wish you and the others here never gonna live through a hell like this )
You chose Hamas over peace, you face the consequences.
yeah but.. peace is quite shitty, with limited living space, razed down infrastructure, no mean on production, and ambargos both from sea and land. Sorry, I honestly can not ask palestinians to sit down and accept everything getting worse.
It is not a choice of peace or killing all the jews! for most people its a choice of survival.
And firing rockets at civilians or organizing terror attack helps them..... how? Also remember they have a border with Egypt, and the gaza strip was always that size.
On November 18 2012 03:55 Thecheef wrote: You guys have to understand that Israel gave Palastine the Gaza Strip, and now they are firing rockets upon them, even if Israel is overreacting they are a country in the middle east who seek constant threats from the surrounding nations. You have to have some sympathy for them.
They "gave" them the Gaza Strip after they took away everything else.
as a result of being constantly under attack since founding . ... otherwise i pretty much agree with everything noam/goozen said. and im very very ashamed by those fellow germans who are obviously antisemtic, you should know better.
EPT
Thanks ^^ 
