EPThttp://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2012/11/israel-and-gaza-0
Israel Bombs Palestine; Kills Hamas Leader - Page 57
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2012/11/israel-and-gaza-0 | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9650 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:31 heliusx wrote: If you can't tell the difference of being critical to a government and being anti semitic just don't post. As far as i'm concerned, anyone who uses the word 'antisemitism' out of context should instantly be banned. Not only is it illegal in many countries, so you are accusing people of a crime, but you are devaluing cases of real antisemitism by applying it where it is neither required, or appropriate. Has there been any indication in this thread that anybody hates Jewish people? I haven't seen any. | ||
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Goozen
Israel701 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:27 Cuce wrote: because israel already holds a very much disputed legal blockade on whole state, and not that flexiable on negotiation table. a negotiation with unconditional support from USA to israel and no leverage on palestenian side will not solve anything. Why would those people sit together with their oppresser without and promise on compremise. Because we are sick of it also? if you look historically the whole "2 state solution" used to be on the Israeli left and now in common consensus. However up untill the 90's the PLO made no claim for Jerusalem and it was accepted on negotiations that Hebron would be their capital but as you can see that is no longer the case. And dont think we are the only ones with unconditional support, the Palestinians also have that from the entire Muslim world, so it goes both ways. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:29 Noam wrote: You are describing life as it is CURRENTLY in the Gaza Strip, under Hamas rule. I hope you are not saying that Gaza's limited living space and embargo's are such, because of Hamas alone. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:32 Finrod1 wrote: Most people don't see the difference between the politic by netanjahus partie and israel. Most dont even see the difference between being a jew and being an israeli. You can't compare antisemitism with "normal" racism. It is sadly unique. And if you cant understand and acknowledge that you may have a problem with antisemitism yourself. I'm not sure if I should be laughing or crying. | ||
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Goozen
Israel701 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:31 Jockmcplop wrote: Its a completely redundant argument because intentions are very difficult to prove. Not really, i dont think anyone would argue about the intentions of firing inaccurate rockets in to cities. | ||
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3DGlaDOS
Germany607 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:24 Housemd wrote: Stop thinking Israel is a white light that does not target civilians. 2008-2009 Gaza War, white phosphorus was dropped on crowded civilian residential areas. The BBC published a photograph of two shells exploding over a densely populated area on January 11. Heck, they have used white phosphorous on numerous refugee camps in Gaza City. Numerous agencies included Human Rights Organizations and news media outlets have confirmed this, even Israel has as well. Now, I understand if this happened once but it has happened numerous times in the span of one year. Additionally, Israel blocked basic provisions from entering the Gaza Strip to help civilians, against what the United Nations instructed them to do. So yes, they have targeted civilians. Israel never targeted civilians. Yes there are civilian casualties but IDF works very preciesely and tries very hard to not cause collateral damage. Problem is often times the Hamas launch their rockets near schools/playgrounds so that Israel can't hit them. Hurt Palestinians were even treated in Israeli hospitals. In the Gaza war 2008 Israel announced on radio where they were gonna hit Gaza with airstrikes so civilians could move away from that area. Guess what Hamas did: They told civilians to go to that area so that they could show dead/hurt civilians to the media. As if normal Pallywood wasnt enough (newest example: http://ymlp.com/zBR2bq) | ||
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Cuce
Turkey1127 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:09 Goozen wrote: Although the flotilla had mostly human rights activists (who even as we speak are clearly outraged at the 40k deaths in Syria and have sent massive amounts of aids and flotillas there...) those who were killed were members of the IHH who were not human rights activists and came to cause trouble (watch the BBC show about it). So if you want to claim Israel targets civilians, link some proof please, and yes i am aware it has happend that soldiers have done it on purpose but they get trialed and its not Israeli policy. blockade itself results in civilian casualities. there are numerous occasions israel defence force targeting civilian infrastructre. Israel already controls any lifeline to gaza strip, blackouts, fuel shortages, communication problems are everyday issues. military occupation itself hampers attemps to rebuild, bloacked makes it pretty much impossible. With no constant export gaza withh just wither and die. Civilian casualities are not only result direct military action. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:32 Finrod1 wrote: Most people don't see the difference between the politic by netanjahus partie and israel. Most dont even see the difference between being a jew and being an israeli. You can't compare antisemitism with "normal" racism. It is sadly unique. And if you cant understand and acknowledge that you may have a problem with antisemitism yourself. could you elaborate on what you are saying here because your meaning is vague | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:29 Noam wrote: You are describing life as it is CURRENTLY in the Gaza Strip, under Hamas rule. Quick history lesson: In September of 2000, after very serious peace negotiations failed, the Palestinians started the Second Intifada (Which BTW caused 1,115 Israeli casualties and 8,000 injured. I am talking at you uninformed who are now just learning about this and think Israeli lost "just 4 lives" or something) Life between the First and Second Intifada were actually pretty good for the Palestinians, with goods and people passing between Israel and the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Many Palestinians actually worked in Israel before the Second Intifada. Business relationships were formed..... But that all changed when they decided to terrorize our lives (again), and since then the people in Gaza also democratically elected the terrorist organization Hamas as their leaders, so we are where we are today: NOWADAYS, Israel has a fairly strong cease fire relationship with the PLO who controls the West Bank. Palestinians who live there lead fairly normal lives. Israel has an ongoing armed dispute with Hamas who controls the Gaza Strip, where they casually fire rockets at our civilians and we get pissed every few years and do something about it. So in conclusion, peace CAN be good for the Palestinians, they just need to accept that when you enter negotiations you cannot expect the other side to accept all your demands, especially the ludicrous ones. That's a very...selective...view on the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just saying, but most people would consider it more complicated than "we're the saviors of the terrorist masses". | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:32 Finrod1 wrote: Most people don't see the difference between the politic by netanjahus partie and israel. Most dont even see the difference between being a jew and being an israeli. You can't compare antisemitism with "normal" racism. It is sadly unique. And if you cant understand and acknowledge that you may have a problem with antisemitism yourself. Sorry, as a "fellow german", you are stupid. Not jews in general. Just you. As the israeli government is bad. Not jews in general. If you want, i can further elaborate what the difference in these statements is. But funny enough, i was waiting for the one idiot that brings anti-semitism to the thread because a german dares to criticise Israel. | ||
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Finrod1
Germany3997 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:34 Jockmcplop wrote: As far as i'm concerned, anyone who uses the word 'antisemitism' out of context should instantly be banned. Not only is it illegal in many countries, so you are accusing people of a crime, but you are devaluing cases of real antisemitism by applying it where it is neither required, or appropriate. Has there been any indication in this thread that anybody hates Jewish people? I haven't seen any. Very mature behaviour. If i don't agree, ban me. Nice one. Ever heard of something like subtext? Or do i really have to tell why the hamas is antisemetic? And if people here, to some extend, justify the hamas thats... suspicous. And i adressed very specificly some german people who should be very carefull what they say on this subject in an international forum. It's simply not the same if i would critisize israel (or the goverment) or if someone from the us does it. History and context matter in this debate. | ||
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reincremate
China2213 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:08 acker wrote: Yeah, but Israel's formation was materially supported and legitimized by the superpowers of the time. If not the natives of the region. Do you think there's any chance in hell America will gift Palestinian citizens surplus weapons, tanks, and land? Do you think America will even ALLOW millions of Palestinians to immigrate into Nevada? I was being maybe a little bit too idealistic. Maybe we should just alter our fundamental value systems so that taking shit from people and killing them is okay. That way, even if I don't go raiding and conquering I don't have to make absurd excuses for it like "self defense" or "the end justifies the means". | ||
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Goozen
Israel701 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:36 Grettin wrote: I hope you are not saying that Gaza's limited living space and embargo's are such, because of Hamas alone. The space has Always been limited, but the population has grown over X3 since 48. The embargo is a direct response to Hamas and the second intifada as before then there was no such embargo. | ||
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m4inbrain
1505 Posts
It's simply not the same if i would critisize israel (or the goverment) or if someone from the us does it. History and context matter in this debate. Wrong. Plain wrong. Edit: maybe you would be right in 1950. But not anymore. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9650 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:37 Goozen wrote: Not really, i dont think anyone would argue about the intentions of firing inaccurate rockets in to cities. How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? Can you prove the intentions there? The case we are talking about, how do you prove intentions? Listen you have to concede some ground somewhere. The Israeli government is not the absolute perfect human representation of good morality. It has done bad things. You admit that, but whenever a specific case gets talked about, you rush to their defense. Its almost as if you are brainwashed. What you will do now is probably shout PROOF PLEASE. As if it possible to prove an intention. Can you prove to me with real proof and documentation that Hamas isn't targeting Israeli military figures with every single rocket they fired? What i would like to see from you is to name one incident where the Israeli government acted deplorably, where innocent civilians were deliberately killed. It has happened many times. If you can't do that, your crediblity is zero. | ||
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Goozen
Israel701 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:37 Cuce wrote: blockade itself results in civilian casualities. there are numerous occasions israel defence force targeting civilian infrastructre. Israel already controls any lifeline to gaza strip, blackouts, fuel shortages, communication problems are everyday issues. military occupation itself hampers attemps to rebuild, bloacked makes it pretty much impossible. With no constant export gaza withh just wither and die. Civilian casualities are not only result direct military action. First of all you seem to ignore that Gaza also borders Egypt. And pre-hamas Gaza was growing economically and the situation was much better. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:40 reincremate wrote: I was being maybe a little bit too idealistic. Maybe we should just alter our fundamental value systems so that taking shit from people and killing them is okay. That way, even if I don't go raiding and conquering I don't have to make absurd excuses for it like "self defense" or "the end justifies the means". Who said anything about values? That's just the way people are. They're selfish bastards who have other idiots justify their actions afterwards. You think Americans thought they were wrong about Native Americans in 1900? Britain about India in 1930? France on Algeria in 1950? Israel about Palestine now? History is going to happen, and people will actually think about it long after everyone involved or responsible is dead. | ||
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Goozen
Israel701 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:30 heliusx wrote: Isn't the IHH accredited by the UN for being a humanitarian organization? I don't understand you saying They are human rights activists. As if it's ok to kill them because you say they are not activists. Watch the videos, watch http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00thr24 the fact that do charity dosnt mean they also do wrong, hell Hezbollah and Hamas do a lot of charity also. Had they complied with the legal naval blockade no one would have died, and this is the only ship on which people have been injured and all the dead just happened to be IHH members. | ||
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Finrod1
Germany3997 Posts
On November 18 2012 04:41 m4inbrain wrote: Wrong. Plain wrong. Edit: maybe you would be right in 1950. But not anymore. Nope. I assume you are german? i recommend to you the heitmeyer study. here are some parts listed: http://www.bpb.de/politik/extremismus/antisemitismus/37967/traditioneller-und-moderner-antisemitismus?p=all edit: in english i just found an abstract of it: http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pac/11/3/239/ | ||
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.. these people who are tryin to defend what Israel did to Palastine the few years are the best example of brainwashed brats who got manipluated 
