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On November 18 2012 04:42 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 04:37 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 04:29 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 04:09 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 03:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote:
Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot. If there is a solution to the problem this would be something like what it would look like. Unfortunately i don't think Hamas will allow that. They are invested in this war, and i think they will remain so until the bitter end. Even thinking about the number of civilian casualties that they will suffer because of this makes me shudder. Israel does have a history of deliberately targeting civilians who are doing no harm to them (the flotilla - no we haven't forgotten). To think they will shy away form it when they believe that they are justified in it because of war (ie if they have to begin a ground operation) is just wrong. Although the flotilla had mostly human rights activists (who even as we speak are clearly outraged at the 40k deaths in Syria and have sent massive amounts of aids and flotillas there...) those who were killed were members of the IHH who were not human rights activists and came to cause trouble (watch the BBC show about it). So if you want to claim Israel targets civilians, link some proof please, and yes i am aware it has happend that soldiers have done it on purpose but they get trialed and its not Israeli policy. Stop thinking Israel is a white light that does not target civilians. 2008-2009 Gaza War, white phosphorus was dropped on crowded civilian residential areas. The BBC published a photograph of two shells exploding over a densely populated area on January 11. Heck, they have used white phosphorous on numerous refugee camps in Gaza City. Numerous agencies included Human Rights Organizations and news media outlets have confirmed this, even Israel has as well. Now, I understand if this happened once but it has happened numerous times in the span of one year. Additionally, Israel blocked basic provisions from entering the Gaza Strip to help civilians, against what the United Nations instructed them to do. So yes, they have targeted civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Gaza_War_.282008.E2.80.932009.29 Hit and killed civilians? yes. regrettable? yes. However it was dropped to cover the soldiers movement and its effects were underestimated, so were they targeted? no. Targeting implies having the intention of killing civilians. Its a completely redundant argument because intentions are very difficult to prove. Not really, i dont think anyone would argue about the intentions of firing inaccurate rockets in to cities. How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? Can you prove the intentions there? The case we are talking about, how do you prove intentions? Listen you have to concede some ground somewhere. The Israeli government is not the absolute perfect human representation of good morality. It has done bad things. You admit that, but whenever a specific case gets talked about, you rush to their defense. Its almost as if you are brainwashed. What you will do now is probably shout PROOF PLEASE. As if it possible to prove an intention. Can you prove to me with real proof and documentation that Hamas isn't targeting Israeli military figures with every single rocket they fired? What i would like to see from you is to name one incident where the Israeli government acted deplorably, where innocent civilians were deliberately killed. It has happened many times. If you can't do that, your crediblity is zero.
Simple, if you fire a rocket that you know is only accurate to several hundred meters and they dont all fall near army bases, then yes that proves intent.
And no, the use of white phosphorus was a mistake, the blocking of certain goods from gaza was also a mistake. "Unit 101" was also deplorable. Israel is not perfect by any means but were a hell of a lot better then Hamas.
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On November 18 2012 04:50 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 04:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 04:37 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 04:29 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 04:09 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 03:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote:
Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot. If there is a solution to the problem this would be something like what it would look like. Unfortunately i don't think Hamas will allow that. They are invested in this war, and i think they will remain so until the bitter end. Even thinking about the number of civilian casualties that they will suffer because of this makes me shudder. Israel does have a history of deliberately targeting civilians who are doing no harm to them (the flotilla - no we haven't forgotten). To think they will shy away form it when they believe that they are justified in it because of war (ie if they have to begin a ground operation) is just wrong. Although the flotilla had mostly human rights activists (who even as we speak are clearly outraged at the 40k deaths in Syria and have sent massive amounts of aids and flotillas there...) those who were killed were members of the IHH who were not human rights activists and came to cause trouble (watch the BBC show about it). So if you want to claim Israel targets civilians, link some proof please, and yes i am aware it has happend that soldiers have done it on purpose but they get trialed and its not Israeli policy. Stop thinking Israel is a white light that does not target civilians. 2008-2009 Gaza War, white phosphorus was dropped on crowded civilian residential areas. The BBC published a photograph of two shells exploding over a densely populated area on January 11. Heck, they have used white phosphorous on numerous refugee camps in Gaza City. Numerous agencies included Human Rights Organizations and news media outlets have confirmed this, even Israel has as well. Now, I understand if this happened once but it has happened numerous times in the span of one year. Additionally, Israel blocked basic provisions from entering the Gaza Strip to help civilians, against what the United Nations instructed them to do. So yes, they have targeted civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Gaza_War_.282008.E2.80.932009.29 Hit and killed civilians? yes. regrettable? yes. However it was dropped to cover the soldiers movement and its effects were underestimated, so were they targeted? no. Targeting implies having the intention of killing civilians. Its a completely redundant argument because intentions are very difficult to prove. Not really, i dont think anyone would argue about the intentions of firing inaccurate rockets in to cities. How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? Can you prove the intentions there? The case we are talking about, how do you prove intentions? Listen you have to concede some ground somewhere. The Israeli government is not the absolute perfect human representation of good morality. It has done bad things. You admit that, but whenever a specific case gets talked about, you rush to their defense. Its almost as if you are brainwashed. What you will do now is probably shout PROOF PLEASE. As if it possible to prove an intention. Can you prove to me with real proof and documentation that Hamas isn't targeting Israeli military figures with every single rocket they fired? What i would like to see from you is to name one incident where the Israeli government acted deplorably, where innocent civilians were deliberately killed. It has happened many times. If you can't do that, your crediblity is zero. Simple, if you fire a rocket that you know is only accurate to several hundred meters and they dont all fall near army bases, then yes that proves intent. And no, the use of white phosphorus was a mistake, the blocking of certain goods from gaza was also a mistake. "Unit 101" was also deplorable. Israel is not perfect by any means but were a hell of a lot better then Hamas.
OK good...
Like i said, i am actually fairly impressed with the restraint Israel has shown more recently, they seem to want international support badly enough to not target civilians, and that is good enough for me.
I take your point about Hamas, i was just trying to make a point.
My point still stands that it is hard to prove Israeli intentions in most of their actions, as we are not present at the meetings where these actions are decided.
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Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german".
Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls.
One of which btw calls someone "anti-semit", if he's tired of hearing again and again that we germans were bad people. That's not anti-semitism. Maybe start watching news and see the shitstorm that happens (including public outcry) if someone like Günther Grass is writing a critical poem on Israel. Which again, was NOT antisemitic, even jewish historians will tell you that. Overly critical, maybe. But not anti-semitic in any way.
So stop fucking around with germans even AS a german, to tell me that i NEED to feel guilty for Israel. I frikkin don't. I did not burn anyone, i did not do anything wrong. I learned over and over again how bad germany was in 1945, which is quite a time back. None of my family actually lived in that period of time, they all died to this point. So yeah. I'm tired being called "nazi", or pointed at me for the sins of my ancestors. I did nothing wrong (actually, i pay helluva lot of money in reparations), so i have the right to criticise a jewish or whatever government if i think they screwed up. As i criticised the american government in many other threads for their "warmongering". That doesn't make me KKK or Taliban either.
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On November 18 2012 04:50 Goozen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 04:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 04:37 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 04:29 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:24 Housemd wrote:On November 18 2012 04:09 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 03:58 Jockmcplop wrote:On November 18 2012 03:57 reincremate wrote:
Civilians in Gaza and the West Bank should seek refugee status in North America or Europe or elsewhere. It's much easier said than done to uproot yourself and start a new life, but it's better than just waiting for the Israelis to wipe them all out. Most countries would probably turn them away, but it's worth a shot. If there is a solution to the problem this would be something like what it would look like. Unfortunately i don't think Hamas will allow that. They are invested in this war, and i think they will remain so until the bitter end. Even thinking about the number of civilian casualties that they will suffer because of this makes me shudder. Israel does have a history of deliberately targeting civilians who are doing no harm to them (the flotilla - no we haven't forgotten). To think they will shy away form it when they believe that they are justified in it because of war (ie if they have to begin a ground operation) is just wrong. Although the flotilla had mostly human rights activists (who even as we speak are clearly outraged at the 40k deaths in Syria and have sent massive amounts of aids and flotillas there...) those who were killed were members of the IHH who were not human rights activists and came to cause trouble (watch the BBC show about it). So if you want to claim Israel targets civilians, link some proof please, and yes i am aware it has happend that soldiers have done it on purpose but they get trialed and its not Israeli policy. Stop thinking Israel is a white light that does not target civilians. 2008-2009 Gaza War, white phosphorus was dropped on crowded civilian residential areas. The BBC published a photograph of two shells exploding over a densely populated area on January 11. Heck, they have used white phosphorous on numerous refugee camps in Gaza City. Numerous agencies included Human Rights Organizations and news media outlets have confirmed this, even Israel has as well. Now, I understand if this happened once but it has happened numerous times in the span of one year. Additionally, Israel blocked basic provisions from entering the Gaza Strip to help civilians, against what the United Nations instructed them to do. So yes, they have targeted civilians. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus#Gaza_War_.282008.E2.80.932009.29 Hit and killed civilians? yes. regrettable? yes. However it was dropped to cover the soldiers movement and its effects were underestimated, so were they targeted? no. Targeting implies having the intention of killing civilians. Its a completely redundant argument because intentions are very difficult to prove. Not really, i dont think anyone would argue about the intentions of firing inaccurate rockets in to cities. How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? Can you prove the intentions there? The case we are talking about, how do you prove intentions? Listen you have to concede some ground somewhere. The Israeli government is not the absolute perfect human representation of good morality. It has done bad things. You admit that, but whenever a specific case gets talked about, you rush to their defense. Its almost as if you are brainwashed. What you will do now is probably shout PROOF PLEASE. As if it possible to prove an intention. Can you prove to me with real proof and documentation that Hamas isn't targeting Israeli military figures with every single rocket they fired? What i would like to see from you is to name one incident where the Israeli government acted deplorably, where innocent civilians were deliberately killed. It has happened many times. If you can't do that, your crediblity is zero. Simple, if you fire a rocket that you know is only accurate to several hundred meters and they dont all fall near army bases, then yes that proves intent. And no, the use of white phosphorus was a mistake, the blocking of certain goods from gaza was also a mistake. "Unit 101" was also deplorable. Israel is not perfect by any means but were a hell of a lot better then Hamas.
Maybe it was a mistake. In that case the IDF must be grossly incompetent. "Oops we fired lethal chemical weapons into civilian centres...again."
http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/25/israel-white-phosphorus-use-evidence-war-crimes
I guess you could argue that all of Gaza is a legitimate target, because terrorists can be hiding literally anywhere-- in random people's houses, in the middle of the street, inside United Nations Relief and Welfare Agency buildings where medical supplies are stored, etc.
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On November 18 2012 04:27 Cuce wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 04:21 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:18 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 04:13 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:08 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 02:46 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 02:42 NesquiKGG wrote:On November 18 2012 01:18 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 18 2012 00:41 NesquiKGG wrote:just as i mentioned before... Israel is good at telling lies and manipulating people  .. these people who are tryin to defend what Israel did to Palastine the few years are the best example of brainwashed brats who got manipluated .... You can turn your head away and stop looking at the facts but Israel and America did kill Millions of People for "defending" theirselfs ... good example 9/11 and Alqaida ... they used this to kill Millions of Iraqis and Afghans.. Israel uses hamas to keep on their projects getting their "land" back (LOLZ) by killing more and more innocent people .. and dont ever EVER EVER try to tell me they are not innocent or hamas is to blame for their death.... i cant run arround and kill every single American just because their Soldiers (i call them Terrorists) messed up my Country... a cursory search on google/wiki reveals your figures of "millions of people" are off the mark by orders of magnitudes. this is literally a fact. also, many of the civilian casualties are caused by explosive devices of the insurgents themselves. would you stop hurting the discussion with these mistaken claims? unless of course, you've "seen things", in which case do go right ahead and quote your sources google huh? I lost 2 Uncles 4 cousins 1 aunt and my Grandfather .. you know how? Americans randomly shooted at a supermarket just for fun ... you know what the News published? It was a suicide mission of one of the terrorists ... now let me ask you one thing.. you remember the last attack from Israel against Gaza when they killed like hundres of innocent people at the Beach? when the Turkish President asked that moron how people try to defend him while he did this thing everybody tried to shut him up ... why? why do people who try to tell the truth always get cut off? Answer me some Questions and i gonna stop hatin on Israel. How do you feel as a neutral Person about what happened the last time when Israel attacked Gaza? (the Beach story and so on) + Show Spoiler +How do you react when people kill a member of your Family or the whole Family? ( im sure you cant answer this cause you didnt go trough something like that and i wish you and the others here never gonna live through a hell like this ) You chose Hamas over peace, you face the consequences. yeah but.. peace is quite shitty, with limited living space, razed down infrastructure, no mean on production, and ambargos both from sea and land. Sorry, I honestly can not ask palestinians to sit down and accept everything getting worse. It is not a choice of peace or killing all the jews! for most people its a choice of survival. And firing rockets at civilians or organizing terror attack helps them..... how? Also remember they have a border with Egypt, and the gaza strip was always that size. when did war helped anybody? I never said targeting civilians were helping palantenians. same goes for israel. if no other options are available to them, you gotta stop and think again before accusing people of mindless bloodlust. Why is no other option available? why cant they merge with the PLO and actually hold negotiations? As long as they are violent (and that's 100% in Hamas's interest) nothing will be accomplished. because israel already holds a very much disputed legal blockade on whole state, and not that flexiable on negotiation table. a negotiation with unconditional support from USA to israel and no leverage on palestenian side will not solve anything. Why would those people sit together with their oppresser without and promise on compremise.
The goal of the Hamas is the destruction of the state of Israel. Why would Israel want to compromise period? There is no trust, you give them a piece of land they move their rockets closer to you. The time for negotiating is long past.
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On November 18 2012 05:05 Feartheguru wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 04:27 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 04:21 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:18 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 04:13 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:08 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 02:46 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 02:42 NesquiKGG wrote:On November 18 2012 01:18 sgfightmaster wrote:On November 18 2012 00:41 NesquiKGG wrote:just as i mentioned before... Israel is good at telling lies and manipulating people .. these people who are tryin to defend what Israel did to Palastine the few years are the best example of brainwashed brats who got manipluated .... You can turn your head away and stop looking at the facts but Israel and America did kill Millions of People for "defending" theirselfs ... good example 9/11 and Alqaida ... they used this to kill Millions of Iraqis and Afghans.. Israel uses hamas to keep on their projects getting their "land" back (LOLZ) by killing more and more innocent people .. and dont ever EVER EVER try to tell me they are not innocent or hamas is to blame for their death.... i cant run arround and kill every single American just because their Soldiers (i call them Terrorists) messed up my Country... a cursory search on google/wiki reveals your figures of "millions of people" are off the mark by orders of magnitudes. this is literally a fact. also, many of the civilian casualties are caused by explosive devices of the insurgents themselves. would you stop hurting the discussion with these mistaken claims? unless of course, you've "seen things", in which case do go right ahead and quote your sources google huh? I lost 2 Uncles 4 cousins 1 aunt and my Grandfather .. you know how? Americans randomly shooted at a supermarket just for fun ... you know what the News published? It was a suicide mission of one of the terrorists ... now let me ask you one thing.. you remember the last attack from Israel against Gaza when they killed like hundres of innocent people at the Beach? when the Turkish President asked that moron how people try to defend him while he did this thing everybody tried to shut him up ... why? why do people who try to tell the truth always get cut off? Answer me some Questions and i gonna stop hatin on Israel. How do you feel as a neutral Person about what happened the last time when Israel attacked Gaza? (the Beach story and so on) + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfKwW3pkx7g&feature=player_detailpage#t=49s How do you react when people kill a member of your Family or the whole Family? ( im sure you cant answer this cause you didnt go trough something like that and i wish you and the others here never gonna live through a hell like this ) You chose Hamas over peace, you face the consequences. yeah but.. peace is quite shitty, with limited living space, razed down infrastructure, no mean on production, and ambargos both from sea and land. Sorry, I honestly can not ask palestinians to sit down and accept everything getting worse. It is not a choice of peace or killing all the jews! for most people its a choice of survival. And firing rockets at civilians or organizing terror attack helps them..... how? Also remember they have a border with Egypt, and the gaza strip was always that size. when did war helped anybody? I never said targeting civilians were helping palantenians. same goes for israel. if no other options are available to them, you gotta stop and think again before accusing people of mindless bloodlust. Why is no other option available? why cant they merge with the PLO and actually hold negotiations? As long as they are violent (and that's 100% in Hamas's interest) nothing will be accomplished. because israel already holds a very much disputed legal blockade on whole state, and not that flexiable on negotiation table. a negotiation with unconditional support from USA to israel and no leverage on palestenian side will not solve anything. Why would those people sit together with their oppresser without and promise on compremise. The goal of the Hamas is the destruction of the state of Israel. Why would Israel want to compromise period? There is no trust, you give them a piece of land they move their rockets closer to you. The time for negotiating is long past.
You can't kill them all. Or you can, but there will be splash damage from nuclear fallout. Unless you kill every single Palestinian there will still be resistance to the occupation. Also there are still tons of other Arab nations that can attack Israel.
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On November 18 2012 05:01 m4inbrain wrote:Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german". Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls.
The first sentence disqualifies you beyond everything else. How do you know none of these people are german? Because they look "arabic". Thats racism in its purest form.
Andy maybe you should read the heitmeyer research. It describes a pretty good problem in our society now. Not yesterday.
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How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people?
You mean the boat where the "unarmed" people were armed with clubs and knives and badly beat IDF commandos whose most lethal weapons were pistols that were not used until several commandos had been surrounded and badly beaten by the "unarmed" people?
Listen you have to concede some ground somewhere. The Israeli government is not the absolute perfect human representation of good morality. It has done bad things. You admit that, but whenever a specific case gets talked about, you rush to their defense. Its almost as if you are brainwashed.
What you will do now is probably shout PROOF PLEASE. As if it possible to prove an intention.
Can you prove to me with real proof and documentation that Hamas isn't targeting Israeli military figures with every single rocket they fired?
What i would like to see from you is to name one incident where the Israeli government acted deplorably, where innocent civilians were deliberately killed. It has happened many times. If you can't do that, your crediblity is zero.
Why? Because rejecting your argument makes you feel frustrated? Your personal feelings aren't a standard for what someone else "must" do. Where has anyone said that the Israeli government is perfect?
It isn't our job to do your job for you. If it has happened "many times," then point out some examples where it actually did so instead of crying that all your examples are bullshit propaganda by the Arabs.
I'll give you one, since it's so important that we acknowledge what we have never contradicted. When the IDF knew that Palestinians were being massacred by the hundreds in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Christian militias it did nothing to stop it even though it had the camps surrounded and had the man- and firepower necessary to stop the killing. There was a huge investigation (Kahan Commission) set up by the Israeli government that severely criticized the IDF and civilian government.
When Arabs massacre Jews, what kind of investigations are there? One kind: an investigation of how big the street celebration should be.
It boggles the mind that in an argument one must accept the other side's arguments or they have "zero credibility." It's incredibly fucking stupid. "Disagreeing with me means you have zero credibility." Yeah, that's a good one.
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On November 18 2012 05:07 Finrod1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:01 m4inbrain wrote:Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german". Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls. The first sentence disqualifies you beyond everything else. How do you know none of these people are german? Because they look "arabic". Thats racism in its purest form. Andy maybe you should read the heitmeyer research. It describes a pretty good problem in our society now. Not yesterday.
I thought that you will catch only this. Funny enough. They don't "look" arabic. There are even woman which cover their hair. A sign of Religion, mate. You know what muslims think of Jews, right?
Edit: don't bother responding. The fact that you try to knife me and even labeled me as racist because you did not understand what i was saying, is enough to show me what kind of guy you are.
Edit2: the picture btw was taken by a demonstration against the war vs Lebanon in 2006. I did not see that the first time, makes it even more stupid.
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This Palestine-Israel conflict goes back well over 60 years (!) so it's very hard for me to point any fingers at this point. Here is some reading and a history lesson.
1948 Palestine war
In Israel, the war is known as War of Independence or War of Liberation, because it saw the birth of the State of Israel.
In the immediate aftermath of the United Nations' approval of the partition plan, explosions of joy amongst the Jewish community were counterbalanced by the expression of discontent amongst the Arab community. Soon after, violence broke out and became more and more prevalent. Murders, reprisals, and counter-reprisals came fast upon each other, resulting in dozens of victims killed on both sides. The sanguinary impasse persisted as no force intervened to put a stop to the escalating cycles of violence.
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On November 18 2012 05:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:You mean the boat where the "unarmed" people were armed with clubs and knives and badly beat IDF commandos whose most lethal weapons were pistols that were not used until several commandos had been surrounded and badly beaten by the "unarmed" people?
According to the activists on the boat, the commandos started firing as soon as they boarded. It's naive to assume that either account is accurate or that whatever is reported in the news is correct. Unless there is clear video footage, we only have dubious accounts of what happened.
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On November 18 2012 05:06 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:05 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 04:27 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 04:21 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:18 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 04:13 Goozen wrote:On November 18 2012 04:08 Cuce wrote:On November 18 2012 02:46 Feartheguru wrote:On November 18 2012 02:42 NesquiKGG wrote:On November 18 2012 01:18 sgfightmaster wrote:
[quote]
a cursory search on google/wiki reveals your figures of "millions of people" are off the mark by orders of magnitudes. this is literally a fact. also, many of the civilian casualties are caused by explosive devices of the insurgents themselves. would you stop hurting the discussion with these mistaken claims?
unless of course, you've "seen things", in which case do go right ahead and quote your sources google huh? I lost 2 Uncles 4 cousins 1 aunt and my Grandfather .. you know how? Americans randomly shooted at a supermarket just for fun ... you know what the News published? It was a suicide mission of one of the terrorists ... now let me ask you one thing.. you remember the last attack from Israel against Gaza when they killed like hundres of innocent people at the Beach? when the Turkish President asked that moron how people try to defend him while he did this thing everybody tried to shut him up ... why? why do people who try to tell the truth always get cut off? Answer me some Questions and i gonna stop hatin on Israel. How do you feel as a neutral Person about what happened the last time when Israel attacked Gaza? (the Beach story and so on) + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfKwW3pkx7g&feature=player_detailpage#t=49s How do you react when people kill a member of your Family or the whole Family? ( im sure you cant answer this cause you didnt go trough something like that and i wish you and the others here never gonna live through a hell like this ) You chose Hamas over peace, you face the consequences. yeah but.. peace is quite shitty, with limited living space, razed down infrastructure, no mean on production, and ambargos both from sea and land. Sorry, I honestly can not ask palestinians to sit down and accept everything getting worse. It is not a choice of peace or killing all the jews! for most people its a choice of survival. And firing rockets at civilians or organizing terror attack helps them..... how? Also remember they have a border with Egypt, and the gaza strip was always that size. when did war helped anybody? I never said targeting civilians were helping palantenians. same goes for israel. if no other options are available to them, you gotta stop and think again before accusing people of mindless bloodlust. Why is no other option available? why cant they merge with the PLO and actually hold negotiations? As long as they are violent (and that's 100% in Hamas's interest) nothing will be accomplished. because israel already holds a very much disputed legal blockade on whole state, and not that flexiable on negotiation table. a negotiation with unconditional support from USA to israel and no leverage on palestenian side will not solve anything. Why would those people sit together with their oppresser without and promise on compremise. The goal of the Hamas is the destruction of the state of Israel. Why would Israel want to compromise period? There is no trust, you give them a piece of land they move their rockets closer to you. The time for negotiating is long past. You can't kill them all. Or you can, but there will be splash damage from nuclear fallout. Unless you kill every single Palestinian there will still be resistance to the occupation. Also there are still tons of other Arab nations that can attack Israel.
This is irrelevant, they tried appeasement, it failed because the Palestinians don't want a peace that both sides can live with. Their goal is not to acquire a fair share of land and resources to live now, their goal is to destroy Israel so they can live with magic man after they die. All Israel can do is play hardball until the resistance is crushed to the point of irrelevance or die trying. It doesn't matter how bad the current strategy is when there are no alternatives.
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On November 18 2012 05:13 reincremate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? You mean the boat where the "unarmed" people were armed with clubs and knives and badly beat IDF commandos whose most lethal weapons were pistols that were not used until several commandos had been surrounded and badly beaten by the "unarmed" people? According to the activists on the boat, the commandos started firing as soon as they boarded. It's naive to assume that either account is accurate or that whatever is reported in the news is correct. Unless there is clear video footage, we only have dubious accounts of what happened.
roflmao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Mavi_Marmara_boarding
http://technorati.com/politics/article/video-shows-very-different-story-on/
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htm
The only naive one here is you, for believing the stories of anti-Semites and rabid "peace" activists. The only "dubious" accounts come from them, repeatedly contradicted by actual physical evidence time and again.
"We had no weapons." I guess IDF commandos got stab wounds by magic then.
"The soldiers fired on us as soon as they landed." Video doesn't lie. Anti-Semites and "peace" activists do. One side lies repeatedly and constantly as part of a deliberate strategy. One side releases videos and details and has real investigations. The side that lies all the time has its lies swallowed down whole, and the other side has every word it says treated with the utmost hostility and skepticism.
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On November 18 2012 05:01 m4inbrain wrote:Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german". Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls. One of which btw calls someone "anti-semit", if he's tired of hearing again and again that we germans were bad people. That's not anti-semitism. Maybe start watching news and see the shitstorm that happens (including public outcry) if someone like Günther Grass is writing a critical poem on Israel. Which again, was NOT antisemitic, even jewish historians will tell you that. Overly critical, maybe. But not anti-semitic in any way. So stop fucking around with germans even AS a german, to tell me that i NEED to feel guilty for Israel. I frikkin don't. I did not burn anyone, i did not do anything wrong. I learned over and over again how bad germany was in 1945, which is quite a time back. None of my family actually lived in that period of time, they all died to this point. So yeah. I'm tired being called "nazi", or pointed at me for the sins of my ancestors. I did nothing wrong (actually, i pay helluva lot of money in reparations), so i have the right to criticise a jewish or whatever government if i think they screwed up. As i criticised the american government in many other threads for their "warmongering". That doesn't make me KKK or Taliban either.
Yep, that is exactly what i am thinking at the moment. You can not say anything in the slightest that is criticizing Israel. Always because one is german. Like what the hell, i hate like everything the nazis did, but i am not responsible for anything. Yet i can't debate about a military action just because i am german? Bullshit.
I honestly don't know what to say here, both sides are extremely stupid in their actions, the big problem in this thread though is that too many people have no idea how Israel behaved with taking their country. The story behind this is interesting and explains many actions by the two sides.
Now the worst thing to happen is a war with more islamic states rushing to help their fellow Palestinians.
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On November 18 2012 05:07 Finrod1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:01 m4inbrain wrote:Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german". Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls. The first sentence disqualifies you beyond everything else. How do you know none of these people are german? Because they look "arabic". Thats racism in its purest form. Andy maybe you should read the heitmeyer research. It describes a pretty good problem in our society now. Not yesterday.
Racism is when prejudices are applied. I think you mean prejudice in its purest form.
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On November 18 2012 05:26 HowitZer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:07 Finrod1 wrote:On November 18 2012 05:01 m4inbrain wrote:Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german". Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls. The first sentence disqualifies you beyond everything else. How do you know none of these people are german? Because they look "arabic". Thats racism in its purest form. Andy maybe you should read the heitmeyer research. It describes a pretty good problem in our society now. Not yesterday. Racism is when prejudices are applied. I think you mean prejudice in its purest form.
It's not prejudice if i see religious muslims. It's actually a reasonable conclusion.
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On November 18 2012 05:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:13 reincremate wrote:On November 18 2012 05:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? You mean the boat where the "unarmed" people were armed with clubs and knives and badly beat IDF commandos whose most lethal weapons were pistols that were not used until several commandos had been surrounded and badly beaten by the "unarmed" people? According to the activists on the boat, the commandos started firing as soon as they boarded. It's naive to assume that either account is accurate or that whatever is reported in the news is correct. Unless there is clear video footage, we only have dubious accounts of what happened. roflmao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Mavi_Marmara_boardinghttp://technorati.com/politics/article/video-shows-very-different-story-on/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htmThe only naive one here is you, for believing the stories of anti-Semites and rabid "peace" activists. The only "dubious" accounts come from them, repeatedly contradicted by actual physical evidence time and again. "We had no weapons." I guess IDF commandos got stab wounds by magic then. "The soldiers fired on us as soon as they landed." Video doesn't lie. Anti-Semites and "peace" activists do. One side lies repeatedly and constantly as part of a deliberate strategy. One side releases videos and details and has real investigations. The side that lies all the time has its lies swallowed down whole, and the other side has every word it says treated with the utmost hostility and skepticism.
I don't support either side. I didn't say the activists didn't attack the commandos. I'm just saying you can't know exactly what happened when there are only one-sided accounts. The video starts in the middle of boarding and you can't see shit except guys with sticks fighting guys coming down on ropes. You don't know who did what first or why. And the news isn't supposed to be a "side"; it's supposed to report what happens, even though it doesn't really do a reliable job of that because it can only provide accounts of what happened.
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On November 18 2012 05:25 Pimpmuckl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:01 m4inbrain wrote:Guess so, when i say "as a fellow german". Your source is quite stupid, starting with the picture of a banner in german, with not one german guy in the picture itself. Further, as you may know, we have quite a big arabic population, which does not help the case in terms of your polls. One of which btw calls someone "anti-semit", if he's tired of hearing again and again that we germans were bad people. That's not anti-semitism. Maybe start watching news and see the shitstorm that happens (including public outcry) if someone like Günther Grass is writing a critical poem on Israel. Which again, was NOT antisemitic, even jewish historians will tell you that. Overly critical, maybe. But not anti-semitic in any way. So stop fucking around with germans even AS a german, to tell me that i NEED to feel guilty for Israel. I frikkin don't. I did not burn anyone, i did not do anything wrong. I learned over and over again how bad germany was in 1945, which is quite a time back. None of my family actually lived in that period of time, they all died to this point. So yeah. I'm tired being called "nazi", or pointed at me for the sins of my ancestors. I did nothing wrong (actually, i pay helluva lot of money in reparations), so i have the right to criticise a jewish or whatever government if i think they screwed up. As i criticised the american government in many other threads for their "warmongering". That doesn't make me KKK or Taliban either. Yep, that is exactly what i am thinking at the moment. You can not say anything in the slightest that is criticizing Israel. Always because one is german. Like what the hell, i hate like everything the nazis did, but i am not responsible for anything. Yet i can't debate about a military action just because i am german? Bullshit.
You can, are allowed to and do critizise Israel. I don't know why people here say we "are not allowed to criticize Israel." Look in the media. Many people here critisize Israel (some justified, some unjustified imo) and nothing happens.
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I don't support either side. I didn't say the activists didn't attack the commandos. I'm just saying you can't know exactly what happened when there are only one-sided accounts. The video starts in the middle of fighting and you can't see shit except guys with sticks fighting guys coming down on ropes. You don't know who did what first or why. And the news isn't supposed to be a "side"; it's supposed to report what happens, even though it doesn't really do a reliable job of that because it can only provide accounts of what happened.
So even though the video evidence directly contradicts one side time and time again (we were unarmed, the Israelis started shooting the instant they landed, we didn't plan to fight, all totally false), we still can't be sure because blah blah blah.
Okay.
The truth is the truth. Truth and balance are not synonyms. If the truth is one-sided, then it is. And I do know who did what first and why, because there are consistent accounts from multiple sources. The Israelis fired warning shots from paintball guns and threw stun grenades onto the deck of the ship, abseiled down, were attacked, fought back with hand-to-hand and non-lethal weapons, were losing because they were getting overwhelmed with numbers, and requested permission to use live fire before they did so. There is no evidence other than the word of the activists that that is not what happened. All the actual non-testimonial evidence is on one side.
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On November 18 2012 05:21 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2012 05:13 reincremate wrote:On November 18 2012 05:09 DeepElemBlues wrote:How about boarding a boat and killing a whole bunch of unarmed people? You mean the boat where the "unarmed" people were armed with clubs and knives and badly beat IDF commandos whose most lethal weapons were pistols that were not used until several commandos had been surrounded and badly beaten by the "unarmed" people? According to the activists on the boat, the commandos started firing as soon as they boarded. It's naive to assume that either account is accurate or that whatever is reported in the news is correct. Unless there is clear video footage, we only have dubious accounts of what happened. roflmao http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid#Mavi_Marmara_boardinghttp://technorati.com/politics/article/video-shows-very-different-story-on/http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htmThe only naive one here is you, for believing the stories of anti-Semites and rabid "peace" activists. The only "dubious" accounts come from them, repeatedly contradicted by actual physical evidence time and again. "We had no weapons." I guess IDF commandos got stab wounds by magic then. "The soldiers fired on us as soon as they landed." Video doesn't lie. Anti-Semites and "peace" activists do. One side lies repeatedly and constantly as part of a deliberate strategy. One side releases videos and details and has real investigations. The side that lies all the time has its lies swallowed down whole, and the other side has every word it says treated with the utmost hostility and skepticism.
The physical evidence in those links doesn't really establish what you're saying. The video itself mentions that the activists are using chairs and poles, not guns. It also looks like the first soldier down from the heli (if that video starts off that way and not partway through the boarding) kicks one of the people onboard the ship almost immediately-though we can't hear whatever verbal exchange went on very well, nor can we know from that video what the IDF had previously communicated to the ship.
Heck, the article implies the first two soldiers were attacked by metal poles while getting off the helicopter, which just isn't true at all in the video.
Edit: There's also a cut in the tape halfway through for some reason. There may have been shoving of the first IDF member off the heli, but even that's unclear because of the distance of the recorder.
Edit2: And they even say this means the violence was premeditated...huh? Not to mention the Israelis do indeed start firing after the cut in the tape.
Interviewer: Welcome; we have a small guest as well.
Yildirim: We've now entered the critical hours. What we're really talking about here is humanitarian aid, and this small child will always remember this journey in the future. The boy's picture will certainly pique Israeli public opinion.
Interviewer: What makes this voyage so critical?
Yildirim: The reason stems from Israel's aggressive position, which has unnecessarily inflated the whole matter. They are using their naval fleet against women, children and elderly people. Civil rights organization representatives are here, and the whole world will see what's happening here. We will definitely resist and we will not allow the Israelis to enter here.
(see the first three minutes of the video)
2. Interview on the Turkish state television channel TRT 1, broadcast the evening of 30 May 2010:
Bulent Yildirim: The Israelis think that the more soldiers they send, the less casualties there will be among the activists. On this ship there are also women and children. The whole world knows this. We'll show them what is means to board the ship. If Israel wants to board this ship, it will meet strong resistance.
To me that sounds more like defense was premeditated...not violence.
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EPT
