By the way, defending Byun just because you are Terran or blaming Byun just because you are Zerg is nonsense. I am Zerg, and I hate when 2 bunker contain happens to me on ladder. However, on this incident, I am 100% for Byun. Race you play shouldn't blind you.
I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
Read the OP please. This changed 2 weeks ago, not the whole GSL/GSTL season. and that comparison makes no sense since that is supposed to be possible, this however is not.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
Read the OP please. This changed 2 weeks ago, not the whole GSL/GSTL season.
My point still stands. This was not the first game played on this map and therefor Byun deserves no blame.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
Well yeah, i can see where you're coming from. I stand corrected.
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now.
As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
On July 13 2012 06:31 ZasZ. wrote: While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
I also agree that Byun shouldnt be blamed for this mistake after all it is not his mistake that GOM didn't notice such a bug. but I lost all my respect to byun because he abused something that was well known for a long time and tournaments were adding deposts to deny it. It is not like he discovered a new way to abuse the map. The only good thing is see from this is that maybe one day blizzard will realize that they made a mistake and they should add a neutral supply depost in ladder maps.
On July 13 2012 06:47 Orek wrote: This discussion just reminded me of 2010 World Cup Ghana vs Urguay.
Great example of how compatitors are there solely to compete. Forget ethic, forget fairness, they are there to WIN.
Right, except what he did was fair, in the sense that he was punished fully for it and the game went on, so it has nothing to with fairness and ethics.
It is the same thing that happens at the end of many basketball games. People commit fouls in an attempt to gain an advantage, because the punishment for a foul isn't strong enough and thus people commit them on purpose. They need to fix the rules in soccer and basketball to prevent this. Stopping a shot with a foul should never lead to a situation where the person being fouled now has to makes shots to achieve only what he would have if he hadn't been fouled. That makes no sense, the foul is hardly a punishment, and is more of a good defensive play. And because of that, people foul each other in basketball and that happened in the Ghana and Urguay game. Fouling someone shooting in basketball should lead to 1 point and the ball for the team being fouled. An intentional handball inside the goal box should be an automatic goal.
In this case, Byun didn't even commit a foul, the GSL made a mistake and Byun had no idea it was simply a mistake, and he exploited it.
On July 13 2012 06:46 whatevername wrote: As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
Can you plz tell me how? even if he had killed that scv he wouldnt still be able to take down the other bunker because there is not enough surface area and since byun kept railing marines to his nattural then building spines wouldnt have worked.this is all blizzard stupid map design not nestea mistake. Also drone drill is not a solution in my opinion because it sets you behind unfairly. And it doesnt work in most maps. People dont know how to deal with pylon wall. People are inventing ways to be able to have a chance to win against a cheese(it is not a new metagame which people need time to discover how to counter it by for example by taking earlier upgrades).
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now.
As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
This is so true and furthur supports my theory they should be completely removed from competitive play. Nestea is so used to the neutral depot that he doesn't even understand how to deflect a dbl bunker block without it. Yeah thats some serious 'high-level' play lol. Nestea had everything else in his favor including excelent scouting information.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
Yes, and the reason was bandwagoning, if it was that easy to execute and so impossible to defend, then why don't we see it rampant on the ladder anymore?I think the last time I saw someone using it was, hmm.. surprise surprise, Byun in the GSL!! Considering how many terran streams I watch there's got to be something weird about that, right?Now, I bet you and the rest here wouldn't want Hero and so many other protoss players to replay the games that they used the abusive sentry drop, would you? Because, you see, as of today that strat is actually much harder to defend then the one Byun used, even when scouted! 5 range queen and/or l2drone drill and/or scouting and pulling the correct amount of drones = problem solved, Nestea did none of those, impressive!Deserves a pat in the back for being robbed by the mean Byun that didn't play 10minNR, poor guy.
To add another shitty analogy to the list, holding byun morally accountable for this is like saying an american football team should decline a penalty that was wrongly called just to be honorable.
It was a mistake of the people reffing the game, and when a ref gives you an advantage, you run with it. you dont report it to the ref in the name of "honor"
On July 12 2012 22:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: Fuck that sucks, I feel like it cost nestea the whole series. Thanks for updating us Wax.
NesTea got RAPED! Game1 didn't matter at all, ByuN was just the much better player.
Admittedly, NesTea was seriously outplayed in games 2 or 3. For all we know, though, he would have won games 4 and 5, and by losing game 1 he lost the series. In all likelihood he would have lost the series anyways, but we can't say for certain-- and that's the saddest fact of them all.
Frankly, I'm still lost where we decided as a community that bunker blocking was any worse than any other blind cheese. I don't remember agreeing to this, and I don't remember agreeing to be all morally offended when it happened.
EPT
