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On July 13 2012 05:55 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote:
Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread.
But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite.
For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act. If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely. Maybe I have different philosophy from some people, but as a competitor, you are supposed to exploit the fact that a judge messed up if it helps you win a match. Competitors are expected to do anything that is not clearly banned by rules. GOM hosted a game without depot, your opponent didn't pause the game, then why not try a strategy you think would work very well? At that point, rule clearly did not ban/prevent the strategy, so Byun proceeded. Nothing wrong with that.
Exactly. In fact, expecting him to not take advantage of the situation is very un-progamer like. If you catch my drift. He did what literally every single pro gamer would have done in his position.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On July 13 2012 05:35 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote:
Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread.
But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite.
For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act. If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
The proper map was used. It's been used for weeks. Byun was the only one who noticed it and used it to his advantage
Well played Byun
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On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy.
I guess you're just making your argument for the sake of Zerg Intelligence then?
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On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon. I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
Talk about terrible analogies, Byun did nothing wrong.
This reminds me of my first game in TL Open Map Contest on Ohana. I did a 3 Pylon block and put up a cannon and ended up defeating Fitzyhere. Did I do anything wrong?
Of course not, the map was poorly designed and I exploited it to my advantage. Did every Terran who won a game on Lost Temple by dropping Tanks on the high ground over the natural do anything wrong? No, they exploited the map to their advantage.
How bout maps that are good for Muta's, if Zerg uses them are they doing anything wrong? Where is the line in the sand between wrong and right when it comes to maps? Seems to me that is it is completely subjective, and the only opinion that matters is that of the tournament officials who decide the map pool. Metro without a supply depot was in the map pool, and thus what Byun did was perfectly fine according the GSL. And since the game was played in the GSL, I don't see how there can be any arguement against what happened. The "mistake" belongs to the GSL, if indeed this was a mistake.
If you aren't using the map to your advantage you're simply not playing your best.
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On July 13 2012 05:58 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:55 Orek wrote:On July 13 2012 05:35 Mohdoo wrote:On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote:
Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread.
But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite.
For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act. If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely. Maybe I have different philosophy from some people, but as a competitor, you are supposed to exploit the fact that a judge messed up if it helps you win a match. Competitors are expected to do anything that is not clearly banned by rules. GOM hosted a game without depot, your opponent didn't pause the game, then why not try a strategy you think would work very well? At that point, rule clearly did not ban/prevent the strategy, so Byun proceeded. Nothing wrong with that. Exactly. In fact, expecting him to not take advantage of the situation is very un-progamer like. If you catch my drift. He did what literally every single pro gamer would have done in his position.
This. You use what's given to you. It's up to the organizers to fix their stuff, not the competitor. Nestea handled it horribly anyways so no big deal.
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On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
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On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote:
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
But if you score a goal in that situation it should be frowned upon!
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On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote:
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
Well that's that. Again.
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
Sick meta game switch that only Byun noticed. + Show Spoiler +
Sucks for Nestea though.  Still think they did the right decision.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On July 13 2012 06:04 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote:
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL But if you score a goal in that situation it should be frowned upon!
It's not the fault of the player though, it's the fault of the ref
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On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote:
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
Actually that is a terrible analogy too. The correct analogy is:
"You're the striker for a football team. The rule makers accidentally remove the offside rule prior to the game. You're offside and your teammate passes to you. Do you stop? Of course not, you score!"
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
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On July 13 2012 06:05 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:04 karpo wrote:On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote:
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL But if you score a goal in that situation it should be frowned upon! It's not the fault of the player though, it's the fault of the ref
Was just joking. Of course it's on the ref. Only second rate pro players would bitch about Byun doing something like this, and many of them would do the exact same thing if they got the chance. Such holier than thou attitude, also it's from zergs so i guess they are kinda butthurt about the whole thing.
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Before someone gets 2 bunker rushed this weekend at NASL on Ohana or CK, not our call. NASL using ladder versions it looks like, they did not consult with us about maps at all.
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On July 13 2012 06:10 Diamond wrote:
Before someone gets 2 bunker rushed this weekend at NASL on Ohana or CK, not our call. NASL using ladder versions it looks like, they did not consult with us about maps at all.
And so it begins.
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On July 13 2012 06:03 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter. As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
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On July 13 2012 06:10 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:03 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter. As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag? It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny. As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
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Good job by byun, but i'm glad it's changed.
Nothing more to it.
Lol @ people blaming byun. Exploiting imbalance is the first step to balance things out.
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On July 13 2012 06:10 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:03 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter. As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag? It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny. As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
What is this scrutiny that you talk about? Should there be a esports investigation into how much Byun knew? Held accountable how? It's on the people organizing the event to keep maps and shit up to date and to the standards they want. if they slip up and don't fix their shit and a programer notices it, the blame is on the organizers.
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On July 13 2012 06:13 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:10 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 06:03 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter. As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag? It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny. As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible. Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
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