On July 13 2012 15:12 snowbird wrote: GOMTV.net official response:
Dear GOMTV.net users,
A wrong version of the map Metropolis was mistakenly used for Set 1 of IM-LGNesTea vs ByuNPrime’s match during the GSL Season 3 Code S Ro8 matches on July 12th.
We would like to sincerely apologize for this incident and are sorry for disappointing the viewers and players, who have worked hard to prepare for these matches.
The GSL map pool consists of official ladder maps and specially designed new maps. The maps used in the GSL are constantly evolving and are reviewed and improved upon every season. As you all know, the mapmakers for the GSL are of exceptional skill and have produced several outstanding maps, some of which have been accepted into Blizzard's official ladder map pool and are used by tournaments around the world.
Among these maps we have Metropolis, which has been in use for several seasons now. Metropolis has had some specific problems, which are not related to balance, that have been fixed over time. Metropolis is a map that is plagued by performance issues caused by frame drops on certain locations, a fact that has been pointed out by many pro-gamers when the map was first released (that is why the map was removed from the official ladder map pool shortly after it was introduced).
We worked together with the mapmaker to tackle the problem and fixed part of the frame drop issues by optimizing certain aspects regarding the use of environmental features. Despite these efforts, there have still been players who have complained about the low FPS. Upon request of a player, our mapmaker proceeded to fix the problems by making improvements to some of the textures used and re-published the map.
During this process, the neutral supply depot that is placed in front of the entrance to the main base disappeared. This likely was caused due to a bug that sometimes appears when uploading a map to battle.net. The mapmaker did not contact GOMTV regarding the changes to the map as there have been no changes to the balance and only a slight texture adjustment had been made. The mapmaker was unaware of the fact that the supply depot had disappeared.
Due to this oversight by the mapmaker and GOMTV, LG-IMNesTea was faced with an unfavorable position in Set 1 of LG-IMNesTea vs ByuNPrime. We would like to sincerely apologize to LG-IMNesTea, the LG-IM Team, and the viewers for this mistake.
LG-IMNesTea and LG-IM's coach, Dong-Hoon Kang, realized there had been a change to the map and requested confirmation. At this point the match had already ended so they only requested a revision of the map for future matches. They did not ask for a rematch and accepted the loss. We would like to thank LG-IMNesTea and the LG-IM Team for this courageous decision.
The supply depot issue has now been fixed and Metropolis has been re-published. It will be used in upcoming GSL and GSTL matches in its revised state.
We will work hard to avoid similar mistakes in the future and would like to thank all parties involved for their cooperation.
"The map bug maybe be possible on further looking, however I believe the issue at hand is a fail of basic testing by mapmakers and illustrates why proper testing is needed."
Original post /w ThisIsGame article summary
ThisIsGame's Shim Hyun did some digging and got to the heart of the missing neutral depot that cost Nestea a game against Byun during their quarter-final match. If you know Korean, you can read the original article at ThisIsGame.com.
Apparently the GSL version of Metropolis had neutral depots until June 26th, but they disappeared starting with June 28th's games. What happened was that DongRaeGu complained to the map maker that there had been some lag during Sniper's games on the 26th, and the map maker decided to make some fixes to improve the frame rate on the map. Somehow, the neutral supply depots disappeared during this update.
According to the map maker "There's a bug that causes neutral supply depots to disappear sometimes when uploading to battle.net." GomTV was completely unaware that anything had changed, and the map maker hadn't informed them of the update because he thought it was simply a performance fix with no balance changes.
Byun mentioned that he noticed there was no neutral supply depot during his game against CoCa in the GSTL last week. He watched VODs to confirm that it indeed had been missing for a period, and decided on his strategy against Nestea.
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games.
FAIIILLL But honestly. Nestea was outplayed all 3 games. Im not sure this would have changed the outcome. hes experienced enough to not lose his concentration from a loss; And shoulda/hopefully saw the depots missing >.> Unfortunate, but it happens :/
(Much like at IPLs hot wheels tourney, where they loaded t he wrong map and they werent cross spawns.)
something really similar happened to BoxeR in an OSL when he wasn't able drop his tanks on a really narrow cliff because the map designer put there the logo of the sponsor...
On July 12 2012 22:20 Oakstream wrote: how did it cost him the game?
Byun did a bunker block at the ramp, Nestea couldn't break through (although he could have I believe, he misclicked and didn't kill a very low hp SCV - I might be wrong on that one)
That said, Byun looked just sooo much better than Nestea through the series, and could have taken it easy.
On July 12 2012 22:20 Malpractice.248 wrote: FAIIILLL But honestly. Nestea was outplayed all 3 games. Im not sure this would have changed the outcome. hes experienced enough to not lose his concentration from a loss; And shoulda/hopefully saw the depots missing >.> Unfortunate, but it happens :/
(Much like at IPLs hot wheels tourney, where they loaded t he wrong map and they werent cross spawns.)
Too be fair, losing when you make mistakes or opponent played well is easier to get over. But losing when the map was bugged Is something else. Unfortunately, we can't undo it now. But not sure why Nestea didn't complain during the game.
Mistakes like these really should not be made by Gom. However I feel that the decision not to replay the set is the correct one now that it is over. Whichever way you look at it Byun won and there is no legit way to take that away from him. It just sucks for Nestea
Nestea would have lost the series anyway seeing the way he was playing, maybe he was tilted but I think someone who won 3 GSL's has the mental fortitude to handle one loss. Mvp did an even worse bunker rush on the old summer version of Bel'Shir beach to him like a year ago where he walled the choke between the natural and the main.
That being said I'm glad they recognized the problem and it will be fixed, because that was pretty BS.
On July 12 2012 22:27 leveller wrote: How come no one noticed until now, if it's been changed for weeks?
I think it is because most tournament maps have them so players probably just assumes they are there. Byun noticed during his match with CoCa. But as a Terran, he wasn't going to report it.
On July 12 2012 22:20 Malpractice.248 wrote: FAIIILLL But honestly. Nestea was outplayed all 3 games. Im not sure this would have changed the outcome. hes experienced enough to not lose his concentration from a loss; And shoulda/hopefully saw the depots missing >.> Unfortunate, but it happens :/
(Much like at IPLs hot wheels tourney, where they loaded t he wrong map and they werent cross spawns.)
its hard to say, maybe if the depot was there NesTea holds the bunker rush and wins the game, maybe winning the first game put NesTea on fire and hits Byuns confidence
but if this was jsut a mistake, why did John say Metropolis never had depots?
Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
On July 12 2012 22:31 Dodgin wrote: Nestea would have lost the series anyway seeing the way he was playing, maybe he was tilted but I think someone who won 3 GSL's has the mental fortitude to handle one loss. Mvp did an even worse bunker rush on the old summer version of Bel'Shir beach to him like a year ago where he walled the choke between the natural and the main.
That being said I'm glad they recognized the problem and it will be fixed, because that was pretty BS.
Still, losing due to map bug could be harder to get over because it usually does not happen.
On July 12 2012 22:33 ACrow wrote: Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
except the one they played in custom was probably fine, even if in custom they noiced no depot theyd just assume wrong map or that gom would fix it and keep playing
In my opinion, the fact that Byun was able to recognise the difference in the maps and change his build order on the fly (I'm assuming he found out at the same time as Nestea that the neutral depot was missing) shows that he is the better player.
If Nestea had the same awareness he would have at least made some precautions (at the very least he should have microed against the low-HP SCV better).
Nevertheless, I really hope that this can be fixed. I don't think it's GOM's fault because they weren't informed by the mapmakers, and from what I interpret, it's Blizzard's system that caused it, which is completely out of GOM's control.
On July 12 2012 22:33 ACrow wrote: Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
Players were playing on it in GSTL, Code A and no one notice it seems except Byun.
On July 12 2012 22:34 Pinnacle55 wrote: In my opinion, the fact that Byun was able to recognise the difference in the maps and change his build order on the fly (I'm assuming he found out at the same time as Nestea that the neutral depot was missing) shows that he is the better player.
If Nestea had the same awareness he would have at least made some precautions (at the very least he should have microed against the low-HP SCV better).
Nevertheless, I really hope that this can be fixed. I don't think it's GOM's fault because they weren't informed by the mapmakers, and from what I interpret, it's Blizzard's system that caused it, which is completely out of GOM's control.
it was stated that Byun figured it out in the GSTL and kept his mouth shut
On July 12 2012 22:34 Pinnacle55 wrote: In my opinion, the fact that Byun was able to recognise the difference in the maps and change his build order on the fly (I'm assuming he found out at the same time as Nestea that the neutral depot was missing) shows that he is the better player.
If Nestea had the same awareness he would have at least made some precautions (at the very least he should have microed against the low-HP SCV better).
Nevertheless, I really hope that this can be fixed. I don't think it's GOM's fault because they weren't informed by the mapmakers, and from what I interpret, it's Blizzard's system that caused it, which is completely out of GOM's control.
Nope, Byun noticed when he played vs CoCa in GSTL.
On July 12 2012 22:33 ACrow wrote: Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
except the one they played in custom was probably fine, even if in custom they noiced no depot theyd just assume wrong map or that gom would fix it and keep playing
If they use the GSL version that is uploaded to BattleNet, they would see it. Why practice on any other version of the map but the one the tournament organizers are publishing?
So it is a mistake afterall. Was kinda hoping it was some decision to allow it to happen on that map only. It would make sense given that is is already one of the bigest map in the pool and very zerg favored through mostly agains terran.
And really more latency issues on metropolis? Kinda hope GSL takes the Blizzard route and just trash this map next season. Looking at stats the balance is all over the place. I think it is time to just get rid of it. Send a note to the maker that he should mind his limits next time.
On July 12 2012 22:33 ACrow wrote: Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
except the one they played in custom was probably fine, even if in custom they noiced no depot theyd just assume wrong map or that gom would fix it and keep playing
If they use the GSL version that is uploaded to BattleNet, they would see it. Why practice on any other version of the map but the one the tournament organizers are publishing?
because theres gonna be like 10 different versions of metrolpolis that are all the eact same?
and like i said, they could have assumed that Gom would fix it or most likely didnt even notice at all since aparently on Byun ever noticed despite it having been used all season
On July 12 2012 22:34 Pinnacle55 wrote: In my opinion, the fact that Byun was able to recognise the difference in the maps and change his build order on the fly (I'm assuming he found out at the same time as Nestea that the neutral depot was missing) shows that he is the better player.
If Nestea had the same awareness he would have at least made some precautions (at the very least he should have microed against the low-HP SCV better).
Nevertheless, I really hope that this can be fixed. I don't think it's GOM's fault because they weren't informed by the mapmakers, and from what I interpret, it's Blizzard's system that caused it, which is completely out of GOM's control.
it was stated that Byun figured it out in the GSTL and kept his mouth shut
Well, all power to Byun, then. If he managed to find some way to abuse (I really don't like this word but I'll use it regardless) the map and take advantage of the terrain, then by all means let him have the victory.
I mean, if you discover a good spot to place a cannon/pylon for a cannon rush, you're not going to tell the world about it, right?
Either way if they were to regame people would be upset at this point because Byun won 3-0. It is good/bad that Byun did abuse it so it could be brought to attention, but there will be a lot of drama about the whole situation.
It just talks wonders about the preparation of Byun. He notices it. Nestea, and all other zerg players, didn't. The map is played and the most acute mind won. GG.
considering how harsh koreans usually are on player's mistakes or behaviour its surprising this has no consequences, nestea was so shaken up after this
very unfortunate situation but its hard to to a regame now
On July 12 2012 22:37 Sumadin wrote: So it is a mistake afterall. Was kinda hoping it was some decision to allow it to happen on that map only. It would make sense given that is is already one of the bigest map in the pool and very zerg favored through mostly agains terran.
And really more latency issues on metropolis? Kinda hope GSL takes the Blizzard route and just trash this map next season. Looking at stats the balance is all over the place. I think it is time to just get rid of it. Send a note to the maker that he should mind his limits next time.
In what world would it make sense...(I suppose in the world of Blizzards ladder)....its an auto loss if t or p knows what they are doing.
people saying this cost Nestea the whole series. You realise he just got 3-0'd right? Also. Nestea should do research, the last few metropolis games haven't had it. And he scouted the 'no depot' way before scouting the 2 rax. Nestea could have paused and made a complaint, or something.
Its funny its been like this for at least the last 4 or so games, and only when Nestea loses does it become 'Controversy'
Honestly what prevented NesTea from immediatly doing 'pp' during the game and then ask why the hell there are no depots? Even though GOM made the mistake NesTea also made a pretty big one with accepting the mistake.
Can't blame Byun for using the strategy. I can imagine this being a very tilting thing to deal with, especially after mentally ruling out the strategy as impossible in competitive play. It can be argued that contributed to us not seeing the Nestea we are accustomed to seeing. Still, Byun did win 3-0. Had Nestea managed to pull himself together and at least win 2 sets, it would be a much bigger issue.
Good lesson to be learned by both tournament organizers and players. To organizers: verify and quality check the product you are presenting. Production isn't just lights, cameras and dialogue. To players: any time you encounter something wrong or unfair, report it immediately; in mid game, pause to call the judges.
On July 12 2012 22:34 Pinnacle55 wrote: In my opinion, the fact that Byun was able to recognise the difference in the maps and change his build order on the fly (I'm assuming he found out at the same time as Nestea that the neutral depot was missing) shows that he is the better player.
If Nestea had the same awareness he would have at least made some precautions (at the very least he should have microed against the low-HP SCV better).
Nevertheless, I really hope that this can be fixed. I don't think it's GOM's fault because they weren't informed by the mapmakers, and from what I interpret, it's Blizzard's system that caused it, which is completely out of GOM's control.
it was stated that Byun figured it out in the GSTL and kept his mouth shut
Well, all power to Byun, then. If he managed to find some way to abuse (I really don't like this word but I'll use it regardless) the map and take advantage of the terrain, then by all means let him have the victory.
I mean, if you discover a good spot to place a cannon/pylon for a cannon rush, you're not going to tell the world about it, right?
that would be true if the depot wasnt supposed to be there, it would be like playing on crossfire and the destructible rocks not being there and your opponent FFEs and you mass speedling and run into there main and win
On July 12 2012 22:30 Genovi wrote: Mistakes like these really should not be made by Gom. However I feel that the decision not to replay the set is the correct one now that it is over. Whichever way you look at it Byun won and there is no legit way to take that away from him. It just sucks for Nestea
I agree. Mistakes or not this was the official version. GOMtv is not in a position where they can illigalize a strat. If we look at the korean stats for metropolis nobody can blame Byun for cheesing his way out on such a ZvT favored map.
On July 12 2012 22:43 Wroshe wrote: Honestly what prevented NesTea from immediatly doing 'pp' during the game and then ask why the hell there are no depots? Even though GOM made the mistake NesTea also made a pretty big one with accepting the mistake.
nothing, because this isn't a 'controversy' thing. Really, anybody who watches GSL/GSTL has known about this for the last 2 weeks
It's pretty silly situation because no one expects that bunker rush nowadays because they are removed from the game with these depots, so it was unlucky for Nestea, but it didn't cost him the series. He was outplayed in all 3 games. Heck even in that game 1 he failed to kill SCV which had 5-10 hp left. If he atleast did that he might have hold
On July 12 2012 22:30 Genovi wrote: Mistakes like these really should not be made by Gom. However I feel that the decision not to replay the set is the correct one now that it is over. Whichever way you look at it Byun won and there is no legit way to take that away from him. It just sucks for Nestea
I agree. Mistakes or not this was the official version. GOMtv is not in a position where they can illigalize a strat. If we look at the korean stats for metropolis nobody can blame Byun for cheesing his way out on such a ZvT favored map.
actually they are in taht position, thats why the depot exists to illegilaze ramp blocking with buildings on the low ground
On July 12 2012 22:30 Genovi wrote: Mistakes like these really should not be made by Gom. However I feel that the decision not to replay the set is the correct one now that it is over. Whichever way you look at it Byun won and there is no legit way to take that away from him. It just sucks for Nestea
I agree. Mistakes or not this was the official version. GOMtv is not in a position where they can illigalize a strat. If we look at the korean stats for metropolis nobody can blame Byun for cheesing his way out on such a ZvT favored map.
actually they are in taht position, thats why the depot exists to illegilaze ramp blocking with buildings on the low ground
no, they are not meant to 'illegalize' anything. its meant to make a 'ramp block' require 1 additional building. it doesn't make it illegal
On July 12 2012 22:30 Genovi wrote: Mistakes like these really should not be made by Gom. However I feel that the decision not to replay the set is the correct one now that it is over. Whichever way you look at it Byun won and there is no legit way to take that away from him. It just sucks for Nestea
I agree. Mistakes or not this was the official version. GOMtv is not in a position where they can illigalize a strat. If we look at the korean stats for metropolis nobody can blame Byun for cheesing his way out on such a ZvT favored map.
actually they are in taht position, thats why the depot exists to illegilaze ramp blocking with buildings on the low ground
no, they are not meant to 'illegalize' anything. its meant to make a 'ramp block' require 1 additional building. it doesn't make it illegal
On July 12 2012 22:30 Genovi wrote: Mistakes like these really should not be made by Gom. However I feel that the decision not to replay the set is the correct one now that it is over. Whichever way you look at it Byun won and there is no legit way to take that away from him. It just sucks for Nestea
I agree. Mistakes or not this was the official version. GOMtv is not in a position where they can illigalize a strat. If we look at the korean stats for metropolis nobody can blame Byun for cheesing his way out on such a ZvT favored map.
actually they are in taht position, thats why the depot exists to illegilaze ramp blocking with buildings on the low ground
no, they are not meant to 'illegalize' anything. its meant to make a 'ramp block' require 1 additional building. it doesn't make it illegal
it's meant to stop it from being done period. you can't afford "1 additional building" at the time where it is effective. that also requires an extra scv and has more surface area from inside
Well its over anyways and Byun totally outplayed in this series. Sorry Nestea.Hopefully GOM rectify this mistake and ensured this won't happen because this is actually a huge blunder by them.
people saying this cost Nestea the whole series. You realise he just got 3-0'd right? Also. Nestea should do research, the last few metropolis games haven't had it. And he scouted the 'no depot' way before scouting the 2 rax. Nestea could have paused and made a complaint, or something.
Its funny its been like this for at least the last 4 or so games, and only when Nestea loses does it become 'Controversy'
No. It is controversial because it was the first game where the Terran took advantage of it. Trust me, it would be a big deal if it happened in GSTL as well.
people saying this cost Nestea the whole series. You realise he just got 3-0'd right? Also. Nestea should do research, the last few metropolis games haven't had it. And he scouted the 'no depot' way before scouting the 2 rax. Nestea could have paused and made a complaint, or something.
Its funny its been like this for at least the last 4 or so games, and only when Nestea loses does it become 'Controversy'
No. It is controversial because it was the first game where the Terran took advantage of it. Trust me, it would be a big deal if it happened in GSTL as well.
i think people are ignoring the mental side of the game, plus if NesTea had won game one then that means he gets to play on Antiga which Artosis said was good for NesTea not sure what 5th map was though
people saying this cost Nestea the whole series. You realise he just got 3-0'd right? Also. Nestea should do research, the last few metropolis games haven't had it. And he scouted the 'no depot' way before scouting the 2 rax. Nestea could have paused and made a complaint, or something.
Its funny its been like this for at least the last 4 or so games, and only when Nestea loses does it become 'Controversy'
No. It is controversial because it was the first game where the Terran took advantage of it. Trust me, it would be a big deal if it happened in GSTL as well.
No. Its not a big deal at all. Nestea knew about this by the '45 second' mark in game. He didn't say anything. There have been 4 games or more on Metropolis in GSL/GSTL without it. People are making this a huge deal, when Nestea hasn't made it a big deal. Its only controversy because Nestea lost to a bunker rush.
And no, its not an 'illegal' strat, a depot doesn't prevent the strat from working. It makes a 'ramp walloff' require one more building, thats it. It just makes his strat harder. But it doesn't matter, Nestea could have done a PP, he could have complained. He could have done some research on the last few games. He could have focus fired the scv (5 hp left).
So many things nestea messed up on. And people are using this as an excuse that he got '3-0'd' because of it.
edit: people keep talking about the 'mental' aspect of it. Well, Nestea should have used his 'mind' to look at his own ramp. Nestea is a 3 time winner, if he got tilted from a non gsl winner doing an all-in, then he deserved to lose even more
The other thing that gets weird is that NesTea didn't notice this or complain about it. Isn't the idea about practicing and preparing for a match that you actually play on a match?
This leaves two options 1| NesTea didn't prepare for the match at all 2| NesTea did prepare on Metropolis but none of the IM terrans are competent enough do exectue a 2Rax.
On July 12 2012 22:51 Wroshe wrote: The other thing that gets weird is that NesTea didn't notice this or complain about it. Isn't the idea about practicing and preparing for a match that you actually play on a match?
This leaves two options 1| NesTea didn't prepare for the match at all 2| NesTea did prepare on Metropolis but none of the IM terrans are competent enough do exectue a 2Rax.
noone but Byun noticed since the start of this GSL
thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
On July 12 2012 22:51 Wroshe wrote: The other thing that gets weird is that NesTea didn't notice this or complain about it. Isn't the idea about practicing and preparing for a match that you actually play on a match?
This leaves two options 1| NesTea didn't prepare for the match at all 2| NesTea did prepare on Metropolis but none of the IM terrans are competent enough do exectue a 2Rax.
No one practices 2 bunker on ramp anymore because it's impossible to do it on any other map. It's possible that he didn't even realize that this map is differet since 2 weeks ago. There's a reason why there's neutral depot, and that's exactly because of pylon/bunker blocks.
But still, nestea played bad during the entire series, that huge attack in game 3 was pretty bad, going muta on every map is also kinda bad nowadays etc.etc. nestea had a bad luck and even worse day overall
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
On July 12 2012 22:51 Wroshe wrote: The other thing that gets weird is that NesTea didn't notice this or complain about it. Isn't the idea about practicing and preparing for a match that you actually play on a match?
This leaves two options 1| NesTea didn't prepare for the match at all 2| NesTea did prepare on Metropolis but none of the IM terrans are competent enough do exectue a 2Rax.
noone but Byun noticed since the start of this GSL
not one other person
That simply means that all the other players are either a| too lazy to practice the maps they have to play on or b| too stupid to see an opportunity
This is really silly. Personally, I don't think it's the job of tournaments or map makers to be deciding that a strategy isn't allowed. Last year it made a lot more sense because this was nearly impossible to deal with but nowadays (especially post queen buff; this is what the buff ACTUALLY effects) it isn't such a big deal. Nestea could easily have stopped at least one bunker coming up and should have been able to stop it even after they came up. It was just his poor control that lost him the series.
At the same time, if the players think that there's going to be a depot and aren't expecting it, it isn't really fair, but it wasn't intentional and these things happy. Oh well.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
people saying this cost Nestea the whole series. You realise he just got 3-0'd right? Also. Nestea should do research, the last few metropolis games haven't had it. And he scouted the 'no depot' way before scouting the 2 rax. Nestea could have paused and made a complaint, or something.
Its funny its been like this for at least the last 4 or so games, and only when Nestea loses does it become 'Controversy'
He may not have realised... It's not like he would check in the middle of a game if there is a neutral depot, he was probably thinking about 1000s of other things. No one else noticed either. Maybe it didn't cost him the whole series, but maybe it did. Don't pretend to know what would have happened.
On July 12 2012 22:51 Wroshe wrote: The other thing that gets weird is that NesTea didn't notice this or complain about it. Isn't the idea about practicing and preparing for a match that you actually play on a match?
This leaves two options 1| NesTea didn't prepare for the match at all 2| NesTea did prepare on Metropolis but none of the IM terrans are competent enough do exectue a 2Rax.
noone but Byun noticed since the start of this GSL
not one other person
That simply means that all the other players are either a| too lazy to practice the maps they have to play on or b| too stupid to see an opportunity
Take your pick.
I think some people are missing a big thing here. Notice how Byun said he had to look up vods from the previous game to confirm it? Why would he do that if he had access to the map itself right on his computer? I think its obvious that it is only in the GSL/GSTL that that version of the map is getting used and if you didn't notice it there you won't see it. IM is also no longer in the teamleague so why should they watch it when they should be preparing their matches. And being prepared for something that should be impossible is silly, its like being prepared in case suddenly banelings jump over buildings.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
He may not have realised... It's not like he would check in the middle of a game if there is a neutral depot, he was probably thinking about 1000s of other things. No one else noticed either. Maybe it didn't cost him the whole series, but maybe it did. Don't pretend to know what would have happened.
how do you all think this is legitimate? the bunker puts a big fucking pink dot on your screen, you dont even need to look at anything other than the minimap to find out in about 5 seconds. If Nestea couldn't handle that cause he was thinking of other stuff (idk what he could be thinking of in the first 30 second of the game), then he deserved to lose even more
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
No it is NesTea's fault he didn't hold, he totally failed to deal with it after scouting it... not to mention throwing away lings and queens
people saying this cost Nestea the whole series. You realise he just got 3-0'd right? Also. Nestea should do research, the last few metropolis games haven't had it. And he scouted the 'no depot' way before scouting the 2 rax. Nestea could have paused and made a complaint, or something.
Its funny its been like this for at least the last 4 or so games, and only when Nestea loses does it become 'Controversy'
No. It is controversial because it was the first game where the Terran took advantage of it. Trust me, it would be a big deal if it happened in GSTL as well.
No. Its not a big deal at all. Nestea knew about this by the '45 second' mark in game. He didn't say anything. There have been 4 games or more on Metropolis in GSL/GSTL without it. People are making this a huge deal, when Nestea hasn't made it a big deal. Its only controversy because Nestea lost to a bunker rush.
And no, its not an 'illegal' strat, a depot doesn't prevent the strat from working. It makes a 'ramp walloff' require one more building, thats it. It just makes his strat harder. But it doesn't matter, Nestea could have done a PP, he could have complained. He could have done some research on the last few games. He could have focus fired the scv (5 hp left).
So many things nestea messed up on. And people are using this as an excuse that he got '3-0'd' because of it.
edit: people keep talking about the 'mental' aspect of it. Well, Nestea should have used his 'mind' to look at his own ramp. Nestea is a 3 time winner, if he got tilted from a non gsl winner doing an all-in, then he deserved to lose even more
What? How did you know Nestea actually KNEW about this by the 45 second mark? Since players have missed this while playing entire games on it. I think what you mean is that he COULD have noticed it. But honestly, the first parts of the game are pretty auto pilot and not many people will check for it because they know it should be there. Could Nestea have held it off? For sure. Is it still unfortunate that this happened ? Yes.
And the mental aspect is BS. So if it happened to MKP (known for his mental 'weakness'), then we should look at it differently?
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
No it is NesTea's fault he didn't hold, he totally failed to deal with it after scouting it.
That is true but it should be not be in the game in the first place.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
No it is NesTea's fault he didn't hold, he totally failed to deal with it after scouting it.
That is true but it should be not be in the game in the first place.
Yeah I'm not saying its a good situation, but NesTea played badly and thats why he lost the game.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
No it is NesTea's fault he didn't hold, he totally failed to deal with it after scouting it.
That is true but it should be not be in the game in the first place.
Yeah I'm not saying its a good situation, but NesTea played badly and thats why he lost the game.
True, i am just happy it was not a 2 - 3 or this stuff would have been quite a bit bigger.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
Not really, he scouted the proxy rax and knew what was coming, he failed to block the depo's and failed to kill either SCV that was buidling them, he then donated lings/drones and queens.
Cmon when it was Marineking vs Nestea finals at gsl MKP rushed nestea sameway nestea losing first game and he still ended up winning championship.. cant really tell are people serious saying that nestea lost 3 - 0 because there wasnt a fricking neutral supply depot at ramp....
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
I did not downplay Byun at all .In fact i am a fan of Byun lol.Check my post if you want.
Byun is a really good and nobody is downplaying Byun. Most people know Byun totally outplayed Nestea in the whole series.
But when a blunder like that occured it is just saddening for both the fans and the players.
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
Actually, I don't think we should blame anyone. Just something unfortunate that happened.
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
I did not downplay Byun at all .In fact i am a fan of Byun lol.Check my post if you want.
Byun is a really good and nobody is downplaying Byun. Most people know Byun totally outplayed Nestea in the whole series.
But when a blunder like that occured it is just saddening for both the fans and the players.
True. Its sad. I just hate that ive watched at least 4 other games on this map, and I noticed it on the minimap of the casters before they were done annoucing the names. So when i hear an excuse that a progamer can just miss that for the whole first minute, it kinda makes me go 'really? why he programer?'.
It is sad, i just dont think there was a 'controversy' over it
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
Actually, I don't think we should blame anyone. Just something unfortunate that happened.
Ya.It was a pretty huge blunder by GOM but what done is done. Hope they rectified this situation and ensured this won't happen.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
Of course he chose to lose and not make a comeback, you absolute tool. Why are you talking about the worker when it isn't relevant at all? The only relevant thing that happened in the game is that there was no neutral depot. Stop pretending to know what would have happened if Nestea won that game. Sure, Byun probably would have won, but you don't know that - Nestea is not the only person to blame.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
What the hell is wrong with you? I don't understand how people can be so stupid.
1) They had the same map, but they could have played on different versions. Byun only noticed it in a GSTL match, and therefore practiced on the no depot version. Nestea, thinking that there would be no changes to a map halfway through a GSL season, practiced on the depot version of the map. Nestea had no reason to think there wouldn't be a depot. 2) Two drones is fine with the queen buff. Those drones would make a spine crawler, and the queens and lings would be able to clean up. Nestea has undoubtedly faced a two rax many times after the patch, and knows how to react.
Nestea should have defended but you can't argue that it is completely his fault. I think the mapmakers really fucked up when they removed that depot. I don't know what they were thinking.
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
I did not downplay Byun at all .In fact i am a fan of Byun lol.Check my post if you want.
Byun is a really good and nobody is downplaying Byun. Most people know Byun totally outplayed Nestea in the whole series.
But when a blunder like that occured it is just saddening for both the fans and the players.
True. Its sad. I just hate that ive watched at least 4 other games on this map, and I noticed it on the minimap of the casters before they were done annoucing the names. So when i hear an excuse that a progamer can just miss that for the whole first minute, it kinda makes me go 'really? why he programer?'.
It is sad, i just dont think there was a 'controversy' over it
Well, A LOT of people missed it... Entire GSTL teams missed it. Because I know that if any Zerg/Protoss pros noticed, they would have raised it out.
On July 12 2012 23:04 ohampatu wrote: Your right. 5 hp left on a worker is GOMS fault
map imbalances have existed for years, lets only blow up when our favorite player gets roflstomped
edit: i understand all of your arguments...but your all taking away from Byun's sweep acting like this one loss cost him the series, whether it did or didn't. It all comes down to sportsmanship. Nestea is the only person to blame for this lost. He could have stopped the series completely if he wanted. He chose to lose, go on tilt, and not make a comeback. Oh well. Dont downplay Byun
I did not downplay Byun at all .In fact i am a fan of Byun lol.Check my post if you want.
Byun is a really good and nobody is downplaying Byun. Most people know Byun totally outplayed Nestea in the whole series.
But when a blunder like that occured it is just saddening for both the fans and the players.
True. Its sad. I just hate that ive watched at least 4 other games on this map, and I noticed it on the minimap of the casters before they were done annoucing the names. So when i hear an excuse that a progamer can just miss that for the whole first minute, it kinda makes me go 'really? why he programer?'.
It is sad, i just dont think there was a 'controversy' over it
During a match you kinda not look around to see if something is wrong with the maps and you actually focus on your match. As spectator you sit laid back and can look at all the details since you aren't doing anything besides that.
why are people still surprised he missed it? everyone but Byun missed it, in every single game played on Metalopolis not one person pointed out the missing depot
Wow, a real shame that the field of competition wasn't in the state it was supposed to be. People can talk about how Byun outplayed Nestea in the series all day, but the point is that the first game was the flawed one, and the first game can often set the pace for the rest of the series - this is an objective fact. Players are human, players go on tilt, and if Nestea somehow just didn't notice and then realized that he lost a game in a way that shouldn't have ever been a possibility to begin with, it could have really negatively affected his mentality. I'm really disappointed that no one said anything about it when something could have been done though.
Note for people who are too defensive: I have nothing against Byun. If the players were anonymous and the map situation was described to me, I'd be saying the exact same thing.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Oh but they have a valid reason for disagreeing with your valid conclusion: they're blind NesTea fanboys and believe he created the universe.
Holy cow this thread is getting enjoyable: not because of the actual mistake that NesTea made but because of all the stupidity in this thread.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
On July 12 2012 22:31 Dodgin wrote: Nestea would have lost the series anyway seeing the way he was playing, maybe he was tilted but I think someone who won 3 GSL's has the mental fortitude to handle one loss. Mvp did an even worse bunker rush on the old summer version of Bel'Shir beach to him like a year ago where he walled the choke between the natural and the main.
That being said I'm glad they recognized the problem and it will be fixed, because that was pretty BS.
Im not sure, to be honest Nestea has said before that he's very uncomfortable in the GSL booth environment with all the lights going on and whatnot. If he's already having trouble concentrating on the game then something like this could be more than enough to completely throw him off. AND that would explain why he played the way he did in those other games.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
Pretty lame, indeed. Was shocked when the strat was used, since it's been out of the rotation for so long due to all the neutral supply depots. Good thing they're fixing it at least.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Oh but they have a valid reason for disagreeing with your valid conclusion: they're blind NesTea fanboys and believe he created the universe.
Holy cow this thread is getting enjoyable: not because of the actual mistake that NesTea made but because of all the stupidity in this thread.
The irony in that first part is hilarious. Read the OP where Byun said he had to watch the vods from the GSTL, not check his PC. They were clearly playing on a different version of the map. I am not saying it wasn't partially Nestea's fault but saying he didn't prepare is just wrong since it wasn't supposed to happen in the first place.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You ask questions they dont want to answer, because it shows Nestea's failure for what it is, instead of putting the blame on GOM like they all want to do.
I don't think it's completely Nestea's fault but he reacted really poorly.
1: He didn't pause / complain / protest during game when ByuN is putting up the 2 bunkers 2: His execution in defending it was pretty poor 3: If he let that affect his latter games, it would completely be on him.
It really sucked for him it happened, but if he responded better it might turn out differently. But again, he might just get steamrolled by ByuN, who clearly played better today, anyway.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes
It is definitely Nestea mistake for losing that game.I did said that but to say it was completely Nestea mistake fault for losing Game 1 is just ridiculously.
He could be practicing on the Metropolis with depots on.So he clearly wasn't expecting a 2 bunker ramp block and clearly wasn't prepared for it since GSL maps should have removed that possibility.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You ask questions they dont want to answer, because it shows Nestea's failure for what it is, instead of putting the blame on GOM like they all want to do.
It IS GOM's fault. Did Nestea react poorly? Yes, but he shouldn't be put in that situation to begin with.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
Stop being so narrow minded.
1) Nestea had no reason to believe that he was practicing on the wrong version of the map (it shouldn't have been the wrong version; no announcement was made by GOM). Therefore no reason to believe he would be bunker blocked. 2) Can't really decide on this to be honest. It depends on what actions would be taken after the pause. 3) Nestea knows more than you about how to defend a 2 rax.
On July 12 2012 23:27 iky43210 wrote: there is no point of complaining, they're going to fix it. They're not going to redo the series because of it lol
Honestly if NesTea would have simply paused the game the second he noticed the bunkers and went "WTF is this shit, wrong map" it would 100% have been a regame.
Of course afterwards they aren't going to change anything in favor for NesTea but that is only because he himself apparantly didn't want anything to be done: else he would have paused the damn game.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
It is a very different scenario here, because they've been playing Metropolis for some time. There's a good chance that when they originally analyzed it back when it first came out, they considered whether the ramp wall-off was still viable. From then on, they would not bother to re-check something that should be a foregone conclusion, since it would normally be a waste of time. The fact that the map was changed without notice is a big difference here.
If Nestea realized the missing supply depot, then he would also have been mentally prepared for this possibility, and there's a good chance that his response would have been much smarter.
On July 12 2012 23:25 MaNaVoId wrote: Lost all respect for byun for not reporting the bug to GOM even though he noticed it beforehand
Did you lose all respect for ByuN's entire team for not reporting it to GOM and practicing with Byun on the map without the neutral depot?
Byun said that he noticed the depot was missing and then checked previous games played on the map and noticed that the depot was missing for awhile. Why should he assume he's the only person that noticed that and that Gom didn't know about it? You can't really blame Gom or the mapmaker either, because it's such a small change and professional players playing on the map didn't even notice it aside from Byun.
As competitors (hopefully) interested in a fair match that adheres completely to the rules and regulated maps, the onus is upon both players to report a problem with the map, not just the player that the problem is detrimental toward.
I'll give Byun the benefit of doubt here and assume that he just thought the version without depots was the right one because Byun is a good guy and I doubt he'd try to purposely say nothing about a map problem just to try to sneak a win, but I fail to see how it was solely Nestea's responsibility to point out the bug.
lol. Almost 10 pages. Nestea Fanboy Defense-FUCKING DEPOT COST THE SERIES
It hasn't changed yet, when we have stated about 10 different things that Nestea fucked up on, the fanboys come back with the same old map excuse. And then trying to use the mental aspect, like they can judge that, and make a conclusion off of it
Shit, he only pulled 2 drones, he would have lost to a normal bunker rush even if the depot was there
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
Stop being so narrow minded.
1) Nestea had no reason to believe that he was practicing on the wrong version of the map (it shouldn't have been the wrong version; no announcement was made by GOM). Therefore no reason to believe he would be bunker blocked. 2) Can't really decide on this to be honest. It depends on what actions would be taken after the pause. 3) Nestea knows more than you about how to defend a 2 rax.
Of course the practicing problem is his mistake, regardless of any announcements made by GOM. Unless you practice all the time on the official map hosted by the official hoster you are knowingly and willingly putting yourself in a position where it turns out you played on the wrong map.
What would have happened after the pause? They would have picked the correct version or if that for some reason didn't exist on Battle Net at all they would have picked either another map or possibly even a regame. A regame would still have given Byun the option to do it again but with NesTea knowing it it shouldn't do any damage.
I'm just glad that Byun crushed NesTea in the other games, so that we don't have all the controversy of "Byun only manged to advance 3-2 because of the free-win on metropolis.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes
It is definitely Nestea mistake for losing that game.I did said that but to say it was completely Nestea mistake fault for losing Game 1 is just ridiculously.
He could be practicing on the Metropolis with depots on.So he clearly wasn't expecting a 2 bunker ramp block and clearly wasn't prepared for it since GSL maps should have removed that possibility.
Fair point, let's restate "It was Nestea's fault that he lost set 1, with some slopiness by GOM involved in creating the circumstances that led to Nestea's mistakes". Peace?
On July 12 2012 23:34 ohampatu wrote: lol. Almost 10 pages. Nestea Fanboy Defense-FUCKING DEPOT COST THE SERIES
It hasn't changed yet, when we have stated about 10 different things that Nestea fucked up on, the fanboys come back with the same old map excuse. And then trying to use the mental aspect, like they can judge that, and make a conclusion off of it
Shit, he only pulled 2 drones, he would have lost to a normal bunker rush even if the depot was there
You are here to only bait aren't you? Almost nobody said it went like that...
On July 12 2012 23:25 MaNaVoId wrote: Lost all respect for byun for not reporting the bug to GOM even though he noticed it beforehand
Did you lose all respect for ByuN's entire team for not reporting it to GOM and practicing with Byun on the map without the neutral depot?
Byun said that he noticed the depot was missing and then checked previous games played on the map and noticed that the depot was missing for awhile. Why should he assume he's the only person that noticed that and that Gom didn't know about it? You can't really blame Gom or the mapmaker either, because it's such a small change and professional players playing on the map didn't even notice it aside from Byun.
Really, if you want to take all the 'nestea' fanboys 'reactions' as legit. We have to assume that all KR programers are fucking terrible at their jobs. They dont practice on maps they are supposed to. They dont scout the map when they are playing. They dont watch GSL/GSTL at all, etc/etc. The excuses are mind blowing
On July 12 2012 23:34 ohampatu wrote: lol. Almost 10 pages. Nestea Fanboy Defense-FUCKING DEPOT COST THE SERIES
It hasn't changed yet, when we have stated about 10 different things that Nestea fucked up on, the fanboys come back with the same old map excuse. And then trying to use the mental aspect, like they can judge that, and make a conclusion off of it
Shit, he only pulled 2 drones, he would have lost to a normal bunker rush even if the depot was there
You are here to only bait aren't you? Almost nobody said it went like that...
if i could bait a response that wasn't 'goms' fault, or somethign to do with mental aspects that be fine.
But when there are still 1 sentence posts saying things like 'lost all respect for byun', 'gom is so terrible for not catching this', etc, its hard to have a conversation. And ive made multiple 'paragraph' long posts, idk how thats baiting. But yea, that one your quoting was me replying a little to heatedly.
But you should read other posts before judging , id actually like a legit discussion, i just dont think its possible because this isn't a controversy thing, and my attempts have been spammed by fanboys, as have other peoples attempts
The situation about the depot is real but I love how all the Nestea fanboys are using this to argue he lost the set because of it. That's just plain ridiculous. Byun was just WAAAAAYYYYY better than Nestea today during their set. There's no arguing whether this incident had a big impact on the overall result or not since Nestea got crushed in all 3 games.
Nestea was just not in a good shape while Byun was obviously on top of his game.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes
It is definitely Nestea mistake for losing that game.I did said that but to say it was completely Nestea mistake fault for losing Game 1 is just ridiculously.
He could be practicing on the Metropolis with depots on.So he clearly wasn't expecting a 2 bunker ramp block and clearly wasn't prepared for it since GSL maps should have removed that possibility.
Fair point, let's restate "It was Nestea's fault that he lost set 1, with some slopiness by GOM involved in creating the circumstances that led to Nestea's mistakes". Peace?
Yeah i guess you could put it that way.Peace i guess.
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes
It is definitely Nestea mistake for losing that game.I did said that but to say it was completely Nestea mistake fault for losing Game 1 is just ridiculously.
He could be practicing on the Metropolis with depots on.So he clearly wasn't expecting a 2 bunker ramp block and clearly wasn't prepared for it since GSL maps should have removed that possibility.
Honestly there are three possible explanations of what happened. 1) NesTea did not practice Metropolis at all. This makes it his own damn fault.
2) NesTea practiced on Metropolis with depots. This makes it his own damn fault for practicing on a wrong map. Unless you are playing on the official map hosted by the official hoster you are accepting the risk that you are playing on the wrong map.
3) NesTea practiced on Metropolis without depots. This makes it his own damn fault for having practice partners that are incapable of seeing a very good opportunity.
On July 12 2012 23:39 Emix_Squall wrote: The situation about the depot is real but I love how all the Nestea fanboys are using this to argue he lost the set because of it. That's just plain ridiculous. Byun was just WAAAAAYYYYY better than Nestea today during their set. There's no arguing whether this incident had a big impact on the overall result or not since Nestea got crushed in all 3 games.
Nestea was just not in a good shape while Byun was obviously on top of his game.
Posts like this make me wonder if people even understand the concept of player psychology in a Bo5 (or a Bo3, Bo7, etc). It's not as simple "X played well so he would have won anyway". The first set can mean a lot for a player's mentality and can set the pace for the rest of the series, I'm sure any progamer would agree with me on that. I'm not saying Nestea would have won. But it's ridiculous to say that he would have definitely lost. The point is that we just don't know.
On July 12 2012 23:34 ohampatu wrote: lol. Almost 10 pages. Nestea Fanboy Defense-FUCKING DEPOT COST THE SERIES
It hasn't changed yet, when we have stated about 10 different things that Nestea fucked up on, the fanboys come back with the same old map excuse. And then trying to use the mental aspect, like they can judge that, and make a conclusion off of it
Shit, he only pulled 2 drones, he would have lost to a normal bunker rush even if the depot was there
You are here to only bait aren't you? Almost nobody said it went like that...
if i could bait a response that wasn't 'goms' fault, or somethign to do with mental aspects that be fine.
But when there are still 1 sentence posts saying things like 'lost all respect for byun', 'gom is so terrible for not catching this', etc, its hard to have a conversation. And ive made multiple 'paragraph' long posts, idk how thats baiting. But yea, that one your quoting was me replying a little to heatedly.
But you should read other posts before judging , id actually like a legit discussion, i just dont think its possible because this isn't a controversy thing, and my attempts have been spammed by fanboys, as have other peoples attempts
There's probably about 50% legitimate discussion, and 50% garbage in this thread. By responding to the garbage with statements like this:
On July 12 2012 23:34 ohampatu wrote: lol. Almost 10 pages. Nestea Fanboy Defense-FUCKING DEPOT COST THE SERIES
You are contributing to the problem, and helping to pollute the discussion.
On July 12 2012 23:39 Emix_Squall wrote: The situation about the depot is real but I love how all the Nestea fanboys are using this to argue he lost the set because of it. That's just plain ridiculous. Byun was just WAAAAAYYYYY better than Nestea today during their set. There's no arguing whether this incident had a big impact on the overall result or not since Nestea got crushed in all 3 games.
Nestea was just not in a good shape while Byun was obviously on top of his game.
Posts like this make me wonder if people even understand the concept of player psychology in a Bo5 (or a Bo3, Bo7, etc). It's not as simple "X played well so he would have won anyway". The first set can mean a lot for a player's mentality and can set the pace for the rest of the series, I'm sure any progamer would agree with me on that. I'm not saying Nestea would have won. But it's ridiculous to say that he would have definitely lost. The point is that we just don't know.
No. We understand player psychology. Mentality has alot to do with it.
But you can't use it to determine the outcome of a series. You dont have magic bro
You are contributing to the problem, and helping to pollute the discussion.
your entire post isn't even relevant to this thread. Your contributing to pollution as well. If you want to make compltains about my posting. Do it in a pm, your just gonna add garbage on top of my so-called garbage when your not even posting about the OP
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes
It is definitely Nestea mistake for losing that game.I did said that but to say it was completely Nestea mistake fault for losing Game 1 is just ridiculously.
He could be practicing on the Metropolis with depots on.So he clearly wasn't expecting a 2 bunker ramp block and clearly wasn't prepared for it since GSL maps should have removed that possibility.
Honestly there are three possible explanations of what happened. 1) NesTea did not practice Metropolis at all. This makes it his own damn fault.
2) NesTea practiced on Metropolis with depots. This makes it his own damn fault for practicing on a wrong map. Unless you are playing on the official map hosted by the official hoster you are accepting the risk that you are playing on the wrong map.
3) NesTea practiced on Metropolis without depots. This makes it his own damn fault for having practice partners that are incapable of seeing a very good opportunity.
probably went "tehee metropolis zvt 70% no need to practice free win ezpz"
On July 12 2012 22:23 XenOsky- wrote: something really similar happened to BoxeR in an OSL when he wasn't able drop his tanks on a really narrow cliff because the map designer put there the logo of the sponsor...
But on the practice map he could. But now I am sure you cal load official maps for games.
On July 12 2012 23:39 Emix_Squall wrote: The situation about the depot is real but I love how all the Nestea fanboys are using this to argue he lost the set because of it. That's just plain ridiculous. Byun was just WAAAAAYYYYY better than Nestea today during their set. There's no arguing whether this incident had a big impact on the overall result or not since Nestea got crushed in all 3 games.
Nestea was just not in a good shape while Byun was obviously on top of his game.
Posts like this make me wonder if people even understand the concept of player psychology in a Bo5 (or a Bo3, Bo7, etc). It's not as simple "X played well so he would have won anyway". The first set can mean a lot for a player's mentality and can set the pace for the rest of the series, I'm sure any progamer would agree with me on that. I'm not saying Nestea would have won. But it's ridiculous to say that he would have definitely lost. The point is that we just don't know.
No. We understand player psychology. Mentality has alot to do with it.
But you can't use it to determine the outcome of a series. You dont have magic bro
Uhh... yeah. You can't use it to determine the outcome. I said exactly that, "bro". Read my post again. I explicitly say "The point is that we just don't know [how the series would go]". -_-;;
On July 12 2012 22:52 baldgye wrote: thats not what cost NesTea that game, what cost him the game was totally failing to block, or deal with it. The fact that he didn't know that depo wouldn't be there showed a lack of practice and game analysis that Byun had.
We have depots on every fucking map for a reason, it's certainly not nestea fault for not defending a build that is considered so fucked up that we modified every single map to make sure it's not possible.
What is his faults, goms fault and pretty much everyones fault who was at that studio since they disappeared to not notice the change. If this series would have went 3-2 in byuns favor there would be a huge amount of rage going on atm.
As it stands nestea got stomped anyways...
Actually. Its completely Nestea's fault. He let that scv live with 5 hp. He also knew about the no depot change before the first minute of the game was up (before he scouted 2 rax). He could have complained, manned up and won anyway, or numerous o ther things. Nestea is the only person who didn't notice, and some of you fans apparently (its been like this for 3 weeks now almost). Byun stomped Nestea. Hard. Get over it
No just no. The guy you quoted said make more sense.
Byun did completely outplayed Nestea in the entire series overall but to say it is completely Nestea fault for losing Game 1 is ridculously stupid.
There is a reason why there is a neutral depot in every natural ramp is every GSL map. GSL made a blunder and it is also partially Nestea fault for not defending it well.
Let me ask you: 1. Byun and Nestea had the same map to prepare for. One notices a map imbalance in his practice, the other does not. Noticing anything in thorough training and trying out map-specific strats is a very important aspect of a drawn-out, preparation based league such as the GSL (as opposed to more marathon-like tournaments such as MLG). 2. Pulling TWO drones to defend against a scouted 11-11 rax is generally considered to be not enough of a reaction (regardless of "normal" 11-11 rax or this variant with the ramp wall-off). If you agree with either of these two statements, then I don't see how you could not agree with the statement " Its completely Nestea's fault. ", because either of these two statements necessarily imply the latter.
Don't really want to argue over this since we clearly have different opinions on this matter.
Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
1)Yes 2)Yes 3)Yes
It is definitely Nestea mistake for losing that game.I did said that but to say it was completely Nestea mistake fault for losing Game 1 is just ridiculously.
He could be practicing on the Metropolis with depots on.So he clearly wasn't expecting a 2 bunker ramp block and clearly wasn't prepared for it since GSL maps should have removed that possibility.
Fair point, let's restate "It was Nestea's fault that he lost set 1, with some slopiness by GOM involved in creating the circumstances that led to Nestea's mistakes". Peace?
If only we could close a thread on this one post. But i suppose people are going to wanna bitch about it and make this into a way bigger problem then it actually is. :p
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
On July 12 2012 23:39 Emix_Squall wrote: The situation about the depot is real but I love how all the Nestea fanboys are using this to argue he lost the set because of it. That's just plain ridiculous. Byun was just WAAAAAYYYYY better than Nestea today during their set. There's no arguing whether this incident had a big impact on the overall result or not since Nestea got crushed in all 3 games.
Nestea was just not in a good shape while Byun was obviously on top of his game.
Posts like this make me wonder if people even understand the concept of player psychology in a Bo5 (or a Bo3, Bo7, etc). It's not as simple "X played well so he would have won anyway". The first set can mean a lot for a player's mentality and can set the pace for the rest of the series, I'm sure any progamer would agree with me on that. I'm not saying Nestea would have won. But it's ridiculous to say that he would have definitely lost. The point is that we just don't know.
No. We understand player psychology. Mentality has alot to do with it.
But you can't use it to determine the outcome of a series. You dont have magic bro
Uhh... yeah. You can't use it to determine the outcome. I said exactly that, "bro". Read my post again. I explicitly say "The point is that we just don't know [how the series would go]". -_-;;
Somehow i missed the last two sentences. Calm down ,
Imagine if Nestea lost 2-3 instead of 0-3, and Byun proceeded to win this GSL. This would have become the moment you don't forget for years.
I personally think SCV movement inconsistency is a bigger problem. Nestea lacked skill and attention for sure, but random number generator that decided to move the constructiing SCV into narrow position also contributed to Byun's win. If random number generator decided to move SCV into southern open position, then Nestea would have held much better at least. Almost nothing else in game is decided by random factor like this. I don't know why this isn't a concern. Balance aside, this destroys the whole SC2 concept of "deterministic" game.
It's unfortunate that this occurred, but we're lucky that Byun 3-0d anyway, leaving no doubt that he was the stronger player. It would have been much shittier had this occurred in a 3-2 series with the final game coming down to a Bunker rush.
On July 12 2012 23:39 Emix_Squall wrote: The situation about the depot is real but I love how all the Nestea fanboys are using this to argue he lost the set because of it. That's just plain ridiculous. Byun was just WAAAAAYYYYY better than Nestea today during their set. There's no arguing whether this incident had a big impact on the overall result or not since Nestea got crushed in all 3 games.
Nestea was just not in a good shape while Byun was obviously on top of his game.
Posts like this make me wonder if people even understand the concept of player psychology in a Bo5 (or a Bo3, Bo7, etc). It's not as simple "X played well so he would have won anyway". The first set can mean a lot for a player's mentality and can set the pace for the rest of the series, I'm sure any progamer would agree with me on that. I'm not saying Nestea would have won. But it's ridiculous to say that he would have definitely lost. The point is that we just don't know.
No. We understand player psychology. Mentality has alot to do with it.
But you can't use it to determine the outcome of a series. You dont have magic bro
You are contributing to the problem, and helping to pollute the discussion.
your entire post isn't even relevant to this thread. Your contributing to pollution as well. If you want to make compltains about my posting. Do it in a pm, your just gonna add garbage on top of my so-called garbage when your not even posting about the OP
It is funny because you come off as SUPER defensive. Are people saying they should regame? No. Seems like most people just feel it is unfortunate situation and feel bad for Nestea. And that it MIGHT have affected the later games. You, however, seems to feel 100% certain it had NO impact because Nestea is a 3 time GSL champ and his mentality should be tough enough. Funny how you seem to be an expert on pro player mentalities.
On July 12 2012 23:50 Shiori wrote: It's unfortunate that this occurred, but we're lucky that Byun 3-0d anyway, leaving no doubt that he was the stronger player. It would have been much shittier had this occurred in a 3-2 series with the final game coming down to a Bunker rush.
On July 12 2012 23:50 Shiori wrote: It's unfortunate that this occurred, but we're lucky that Byun 3-0d anyway, leaving no doubt that he was the stronger player. It would have been much shittier had this occurred in a 3-2 series with the final game coming down to a Bunker rush.
reminds me of another IM multi-gsl champion
Luckily, back then, Bunker rushes were pretty standard and weren't something you got faked out of by the map.
On July 12 2012 23:50 Shiori wrote: It's unfortunate that this occurred, but we're lucky that Byun 3-0d anyway, leaving no doubt that he was the stronger player. It would have been much shittier had this occurred in a 3-2 series with the final game coming down to a Bunker rush.
reminds me of another IM multi-gsl champion
Wow, imagine if this actaully happened in G7 of MVP vs Squirtle!!!
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Seeing as the change had been in place for over a week, there was no reason for anyone to assume it wasn't an intentional change by GomTV.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Why would he think it was a bug? As has been pointed out, this version of the map has been in use for two weeks.
That's really unfortunate. Not sure how much it might have mattered - Nestea got completely outplayed in the other two games. Good on Byun - kid did his homework and played extremely well.
well the reason he lost it, was that he decided to pull back 2 drones 1sec earlier and let the scv with 5hp to build a bunker... that was a big mistake that caused him to lose that game.
If he did actually killed that scv the other bunker would have been canceled as it was around 25%-30% completed.
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Games have been lost over pausing etiquette, even if the pause was warranted. I'm not surprised that Nestea did not pause because there was the chance that he was incorrect, in which case he might get handed an auto-loss.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Well, considering the casters/john the translator/posters weren't even really sure if it was a bug and it happens so rarely. Nestea was probably really conflicted about pausing under that situation. Maybe he thought like many of us did "Oh shit, there is no neutral depot on Metropolis!!". I think it is likely he asked his coach to check once his game was over and that is the reason the protest was after game 2.
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Games have been lost over pausing etiquette, even if it was warranted. I'm not surprised that Nestea did not pause because there was the chance that he was incorrect, in which case he might get handed an auto-loss.
gom has never handed an auto-lose for this, and has only given warning for pausing without consulting a admin i believe.
i understand the concept because nestea was a bw player
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Games have been lost over pausing etiquette, even if the pause was warranted. I'm not surprised that Nestea did not pause because there was the chance that he was incorrect, in which case he might get handed an auto-loss.
Though LG-IM's head coach made a complaint after the end of the second set, GomTV decided there could be no action as there had been no complaint during the actual game.
This I find quite weird, seeing as GomTV has rules in place to discourage player's from pausing a game unless something is very wrong. Obviously Nestea wont pause and risk getting punished for it.
If a map bug (about which you complain after the game) isnt "very wrong" - then what is?
Still weird that not many ppl seem to have noticed this bug earlier, crazy^^
Games have been lost over pausing etiquette, even if the pause was warranted. I'm not surprised that Nestea did not pause because there was the chance that he was incorrect, in which case he might get handed an auto-loss.
GOM doesn't do auto losses. KeSPA does though.
Yeah, with that in mind, Nestea probably should have paused. Damn, that alternate timeline is so tempting
Maybe it has something to do with his BW days dealing with KeSPA :\
The fact that game 1 went how it did probably did cost him the series. All he had to do was win one of the first 3 and then he has Atlantis and Whirlwind to close which are fairly easy ZvT. That being said, Nestea had ample opportunity to win that series (specifically game3) and did not get the job done. Whether it was because he was rattled by game 1 or not is irrelevent, he should have known that all he had to do was win one of the next two and its back in his court.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
On July 12 2012 23:57 SeinGalton wrote: That's really unfortunate. Not sure how much it might have mattered - Nestea got completely outplayed in the other two games. Good on Byun - kid did his homework and played extremely well.
As I've mentioned earlier in this thread; we should not underestimate the importance of that first game, Nestea has earlier said ( I believe it was during his "off the record" episode) that he's having trouble concentrating on the game in the GSL booths with all the lights blinking and whatnot and that he's uncomfortable. If one's already having trouble focusing and feeling calm, and he's been putting a lot of effort into something, and we all know how much Nestea prepares for matchups, something completely unexpected like this happens can easily throw him off his game.
the more I think about it the more Im sure that this is the reason why he made so many mistakes in the following matches and didnt look at all like himself. With that said, yes Byun played very well but dont underestimate the mental part of the game
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Look, no one knows what would have happened in G1. Let's assume Nestea wins and their 'mentalities' don't get any affect and Nestea and Byun played exactly that same and Byun wins G2 and G3. Nestea could still win in G4/G5. Because we HAVE seen players derp for 2 games and then make a comeback. And maybe Byun picks a different strategy if the depot was there and wins G1 anyways and still 3-0's Nestea.
The point is, there is NO WAY anyone can say with 100% certainty that Byun would have won the series. Probably? Judging from the play, sure. But it was likely that Seed was going to lose vs Symbol when he went down 0-2 yesterday as well.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
The reality is that he got absolutely slaughtered in the next two games. You can argue that this was because he was tilted or affected by the first game, but this is the life of a gamer - it is something you should already know how to deal with (and he most definitely does). To blame two consecutive slaughters on something happening in the first game is silly. And, it's not like he played stupendously well in the first one; he made very poor choices. If he played perfectly in the first game then played poorly in the next two, one could argue that the "unfair" map was to blame, but he played poorly from the start.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Look, no one knows what would have happened in G1. Let's assume Nestea wins and their 'mentalities' don't get any affect and Nestea and Byun played exactly that same and Byun wins G2 and G3. Nestea could still win in G4/G5. Because we HAVE seen players derp for 2 games and then make a comeback. And maybe Byun picks a different strategy if the depot was there and wins G1 anyways and still 3-0's Nestea.
The point is, there is NO WAY anyone can say with 100% certainty that Byun would have won the series. Probably? Judging from the play, sure. But it was likely that Seed was going to lose vs Symbol when he went down 0-2 yesterday as well.
The games for Seed & Symbol were much, much, much closer than Nestea vs Byun. The argument for a comeback from 0-2 is much more likely because each game was neck & neck. Nestea vs Byun, was not neck & neck. It was horribly one sided.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Look, no one knows what would have happened in G1. Let's assume Nestea wins and their 'mentalities' don't get any affect and Nestea and Byun played exactly that same and Byun wins G2 and G3. Nestea could still win in G4/G5. Because we HAVE seen players derp for 2 games and then make a comeback. And maybe Byun picks a different strategy if the depot was there and wins G1 anyways and still 3-0's Nestea.
The point is, there is NO WAY anyone can say with 100% certainty that Byun would have won the series. Probably? Judging from the play, sure. But it was likely that Seed was going to lose vs Symbol when he went down 0-2 yesterday as well.
i agree completely with that (since thats logic haha). im just saying that in response to everyone saying the only reason nestea lost was cause of that; you cant conclude anything other than that Byun noticed the map and took advantage of it
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Wait what? How can Nestea take advantage of the map, only terrans and protoss can abuse the no neutral supply depot. Losing to a 2 rax like that when you don't even expect the map to be changed in a way that affects your play can be a huge mental loss even if it's nestea.
also idra's thoughts on byuns bunker rushing because of the bug:https://twitter.com/idrajit/status/223429410198519808
"cant believe byun bunker blocked on metropolis because of a map bug. what a joke of a player."
well nestea shoul have watched the vod of byun and coca.. i mean to see byun play a tvz on a map which they also play he really have watched it and if he did not notice its kind a his own fault
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Wait what? How can Nestea take advantage of the map, only terrans and protoss can abuse the no neutral supply depot.
also idra's thoughts on byuns bunker rushing because of the bug:https://twitter.com/idrajit/status/223429410198519808
"cant believe byun bunker blocked on metropolis because of a map bug. what a joke of a player."
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Thats absurd. Byun took advantage of the map, and to great success. Nestea didn't, and suffered the consequences. Still that was only 1 game and in terms of that tilting him for the entire series....were talking about Nestea here. If every time he lost for a silly reason he went off tilt he wouldnt really have 3 gsls to his name...
Look, no one knows what would have happened in G1. Let's assume Nestea wins and their 'mentalities' don't get any affect and Nestea and Byun played exactly that same and Byun wins G2 and G3. Nestea could still win in G4/G5. Because we HAVE seen players derp for 2 games and then make a comeback. And maybe Byun picks a different strategy if the depot was there and wins G1 anyways and still 3-0's Nestea.
The point is, there is NO WAY anyone can say with 100% certainty that Byun would have won the series. Probably? Judging from the play, sure. But it was likely that Seed was going to lose vs Symbol when he went down 0-2 yesterday as well.
This post says everything that needs to be said. Anyone certain that Byun would have 100% won the series is objectively wrong. The point is, again, that we just don't know what would have happened, and that's why this is such an unfortunate incident.
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
byun isn't the bad guy
edit: what is clouds reponse
Dude he's played the map with the neutral depots he even said he saw that the neutral supply depots were gone and decided to use that strategy, it's not standard at all every single map in the GSL map pool has a neutral supply depot, it's a bug if GOMTV never release a statement saying the map/s were changed, there was no official statement so it's clearly a map bug.
clouds response was: "queens with 5 ground range are also a bug"
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
If Byun played like that and Nestea played the way he did, Nestea woulda lost at least 2 out of the games 1, 4 and 5. It was far too one sided to blame it on tilt, ESPECIALLY cause his decision making in game 1 was just as poor.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
byun isn't the bad guy
edit: what is clouds reponse
This. Really surprised no one noticed the past few weeks.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
as a player trying to win, if he sees an advantage, he will take it. Its not a matter 'this might be a bug so im not going to do it in case', hes going to do whatever he can to win
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
Aside from the fact that this is obviously not true, I'm pretty sure nobody was in favour of KeSPA's draconian punishments, even in the case where punishment is warranted.
By the way, the absence of a supply depot isn't a bug, and it's certainly not a bug exploit, because nothing Byun did could cause the supply depot to be circumvented. It's just that the map editor screwed up a little bit and forgot to recheck his map. Byun took advantage of it because it's a feature of the map, which exists in vanilla Sc2, and has nothing to do with a loophole in programming in the game itself.
On July 13 2012 00:14 ohampatu wrote: people keep acting like byun knew it was a bug
look at it in his pov:
he watches this gsl/gstl season, has numeous vods of this map, no depot. he assumes its standard since 4-5 games and no change and no out-roar he does a legit strat and wins
Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause'
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
Aside from the fact that this is obviously not true, I'm pretty sure nobody was in favour of KeSPA's draconian punishments, even in the case where punishment is warranted.
By the way, the absence of a supply depot isn't a bug, and it's certainly not a bug exploit, because nothing Byun did could cause the supply depot to be circumvented. It's just that the map editor screwed up a little bit and forgot to recheck his map. Byun took advantage of it because it's a feature of the map, which exists in vanilla Sc2, and has nothing to do with a loophole in programming in the game itself.
That's just nitpicking about semantics >_> I'm sure when people use the word "bug" they realize it's not technically a bug, but it's a convenient word to use, easier to type than "unintended map feature". Though I guess the word does carry a more negative connotation...
On July 12 2012 23:57 SeinGalton wrote: That's really unfortunate. Not sure how much it might have mattered - Nestea got completely outplayed in the other two games. Good on Byun - kid did his homework and played extremely well.
As I've mentioned earlier in this thread; we should not underestimate the importance of that first game, Nestea has earlier said ( I believe it was during his "off the record" episode) that he's having trouble concentrating on the game in the GSL booths with all the lights blinking and whatnot and that he's uncomfortable. If one's already having trouble focusing and feeling calm, and he's been putting a lot of effort into something, and we all know how much Nestea prepares for matchups, something completely unexpected like this happens can easily throw him off his game.
the more I think about it the more Im sure that this is the reason why he made so many mistakes in the following matches and didnt look at all like himself. With that said, yes Byun played very well but dont underestimate the mental part of the game
Absolutely correct, and it's far more significant on a cerebral player like Nestea. I just hope people don't reduce Nestea's defeat to a bug because I thought Byun played incredible Starcraft today above and beyond Nestea's sloppiness. Byun definitely deserves credit for the way he played and the exploitation doesn't really detract from his victory in my eyes.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
Aside from the fact that this is obviously not true, I'm pretty sure nobody was in favour of KeSPA's draconian punishments, even in the case where punishment is warranted.
By the way, the absence of a supply depot isn't a bug, and it's certainly not a bug exploit, because nothing Byun did could cause the supply depot to be circumvented. It's just that the map editor screwed up a little bit and forgot to recheck his map. Byun took advantage of it because it's a feature of the map, which exists in vanilla Sc2, and has nothing to do with a loophole in programming in the game itself.
That's just nitpicking about semantics >_> I'm sure when people use the word "bug" they realize it's not technically a bug, but it's a convenient word to use, easier to type than "unintended map feature". Though I guess the word does carry a more negative connotation...
Map features are not something that players can cause to occur, though. Further, Gom has within its power the ability to change map features. The reason why bugs are a problem is because only Blizzard can actually fix them, which means that Gom needs to rely on player honour to not use them until the patch is released. In the case of maps, anything which is in the map is fair game, unless it's some sort of programming loophole which gives one player an unfair advantage. The absence of a supply depot (which is purely elective and still doesn't feature on ladder maps) is not something that Byun caused to occur and has nothing to do with an action he took viz a vis the coding of the game, ergo it's not a bug and it's not his fault.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
Jezus man, stop embarassing yourself. This argument of yours isn't going anywhere.
byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
xD No... Just No... Please don't spout random bullshit and claim it as fact. Especially when its clear you have no clue wtf you are talking about.
Just rewatched the VOD, it does look like it made a material difference AT LEAST for game 1, the distinction between complete block and incomplete block is game changing. However, you cannot conclusively link what happens in Game 1 with the next few matches (tilt etc etc).
"Byun didn't abuse a map bug. He thought this map didn't have depots. Some people will say 'dont be retarded all maps need them', but then i can just reply 'why was nestea retarded as well then and not pause' "
Regardless of whether Byun know its a bug or not , I think no punishments should be handed. It's not his fault, more of the GOMTV and the mapmakers.
Also, IMJunwi needs to not scratch his balls in front of the camera its hurting esports.
Honestly, it is plausible to believe that this was the correct version of the map based on the previous series played by other players on the map where there was no neutral depot. You are gonna tell me that this map has been played for WEEKS and no one noticed it? Come on there had to have been other players that saw it but hadn't had a chance to abuse it.
With that said, Nestea should have either paused the game, or blocked the easily scouted bunker rush.
On July 12 2012 23:56 MaNaVoId wrote: Ridiculous that naniwa got harsh punishment for being unprofessional by probe rushing but when byun act unprofessionally by abusing a bug that he known had existed, he got away with it.
Bahahaha, because those situations are so very similar. Get out of here please...
lol do you understand anything about professionalism at all? If this is a Kespa game , byun would have been disqualified because he abused a bug on the map that he knew.
I'm amazed at how many posts start off with these moronic rhetorical questions. You should give people the opportunity to ignore you before you follow through with the rant part, and if you insist on being demeaning you should do it in style and at least be entertaining.
That sucks, but players in tennis lose games due to bad line judges and refs. America football teams are expected to play in all weather except for thunderstorms. If their passing game goes is shut down because of heavy rain, they cannot complain. Even in the Olympics when judging was found to be have been done incorrectly, they still allowed gold medals to stand because it was not the players fault the judge made an error(it was a mistake, not score fixing). It is hard, but a defect in the playing field cannot be blamed on the player that takes advantage of it.
On July 12 2012 23:46 Tuczniak wrote: Gomtv failed so hard. They should have had stop the game right away. Now all results are discredited.
Also players should say it's wrong and don't abuse everything they find.
A win's a win tbh. I dont get why he was the only one observant enough to notice = his obligation to inform anyone else.. He lives off the money he makes for playing. Cant expect him to give up a edge when its his livelihood.
Nestea (edit: lol :D) should have paused the game as soon as he noticed the missing depot. You cannot complain after you have already lost the game. Just like in tennis (when you have the technology on the court) you can challenge a call during the play, but if you continue the rally and lose, you obviously cannot go back and say "hey that hit 10 strokes ago was out".
On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote: if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe. but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy.
And how is a zerg ever supposed to abuse a ramp with no neutral depot?
But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was GOMs fault, not the abuser.
Nestea should have paused and asked for a regame with the proper map the moment he got bunker blocked. Complaining after you have lost is ok but GomTV is stuck at that point as they can't do a regame anymore as that would be unfair to Byun.
It's such a rare situation though that perhaps they could have made an exception and do a regame anyway. I can understand Nestea didn't dare to pause because he was occupied and unsure if it was intentional with the map or not.
On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote: if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe. but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy.
dat logic. yes of course because byun was highly at risk to getting blocked off by spine crawlers in the commonly executed double spawning pool spine rush
no one is calling a player out... except maybe it was a cheesy ass strat
people are calling gom out for using a map that is missing a key component that was instituted for balance's sake
On July 13 2012 01:07 Markwerf wrote: Nestea should have paused and asked for a regame with the proper map the moment he got bunker blocked. Complaining after you have lost is ok but GomTV is stuck at that point as they can't do a regame anymore as that would be unfair to Byun.
It's such a rare situation though that perhaps they could have made an exception and do a regame anyway. I can understand Nestea didn't dare to pause because he was occupied and unsure if it was intentional with the map or not.
no, nestea would have needed to ask for re-game as soon as he scouted no depot
he can't wait till the bunkers are down and go 'OMG'
and this 'not allowed to pause excuse' is a nogo. He has the 'nestea' award, he knows GOM doesn't give auto-losses like that
How is it pathetic? All is fair in love and war. If anything this shows NesTea's honor; surely when he got bunker blocked he should have realized that shouldnt be possible and stopped the game, however he failed to do so. I respect that he could have but didn't because re-games REALLY mess up BoX's, especially the first game.
The only person to blame is Nestea for not immediately asking for a pause the second the bunkers went down. At that point it's 100% he knew there was no depot, and I'm positive GomTV would have forced a regame in such a situation.
Goms response is very appropriate, since there was no complaint during the game there is nothing we can do.
On July 13 2012 01:07 Markwerf wrote: Nestea should have paused and asked for a regame with the proper map the moment he got bunker blocked. Complaining after you have lost is ok but GomTV is stuck at that point as they can't do a regame anymore as that would be unfair to Byun.
It's such a rare situation though that perhaps they could have made an exception and do a regame anyway. I can understand Nestea didn't dare to pause because he was occupied and unsure if it was intentional with the map or not.
no, nestea would have needed to ask for re-game as soon as he scouted no depot
he can't wait till the bunkers are down and go 'OMG'
and this 'not allowed to pause excuse' is a nogo. He has the 'nestea' award, he knows GOM doesn't give auto-losses like that
You are absolutely incorrect, and Gom admins aren't that stupid. It's the same as if the maps have wrong positions, if your scout doesn't arrive at the right place, and you find them 1 minute later in a position it's not supposed to be possible to be at and you ask for a pause, Gom isn't going to say "trololo too late man you should have known!"
On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote: if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe. but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy.
And how is a zerg ever supposed to abuse a ramp with no neutral depot?
But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was GOMs fault, not the abuser.
And how Terran ever supposed to abuse a late game zerg with no good T3 units
But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was Blizzard's fault, not the abuser.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Griffith` wrote: SC2 nerds are such cry babies about these "map imbalances" lol
Chokes/ramps/abuses/cliff drops/map imbalances are no where NEAR as abusive as they were in BW
jesus christ
You cannot compare it tough, units simply work different. Weren't zerglings more powerful and marines weaker overal? Not sure here but if that is true that alone majorly effects bunker rushes.
On July 12 2012 23:27 iky43210 wrote: there is no point of complaining, they're going to fix it. They're not going to redo the series because of it lol
Honestly if NesTea would have simply paused the game the second he noticed the bunkers and went "WTF is this shit, wrong map" it would 100% have been a regame.
Of course afterwards they aren't going to change anything in favor for NesTea but that is only because he himself apparantly didn't want anything to be done: else he would have paused the damn game.
Or Nestea would have possibly have gotten DQ'd for a pause that wasn't because of equipment failure of some kind. You don't seem to really understand the rules of tournaments. Pausing generally isn't allowed at all during a game unless your having problems with the computer or gear your using.
Go read up on some tournament rules before making a stupid statement like that cause you just look stupid for it.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Griffith` wrote: SC2 nerds are such cry babies about these "map imbalances" lol
Chokes/ramps/abuses/cliff drops/map imbalances are no where NEAR as abusive as they were in BW
jesus christ
You cannot compare it tough, units simply work different. Weren't zerglings more powerful and marines weaker overal? Not sure here but if that is true that alone majorly effects bunker rushes.
defending 4 pools as T sucked lol
jerklings op, not to meantion the maps back then lol.
So many sc2 people would rage. Being able to create a wall on one map, then using the same building setup on a ramp the same size, and not having a wall
On July 12 2012 23:27 iky43210 wrote: there is no point of complaining, they're going to fix it. They're not going to redo the series because of it lol
Honestly if NesTea would have simply paused the game the second he noticed the bunkers and went "WTF is this shit, wrong map" it would 100% have been a regame.
Of course afterwards they aren't going to change anything in favor for NesTea but that is only because he himself apparantly didn't want anything to be done: else he would have paused the damn game.
Or Nestea would have possibly have gotten DQ'd for a pause that wasn't because of equipment failure of some kind. You don't seem to really understand the rules of tournaments. Pausing generally isn't allowed at all during a game unless your having problems with the computer or gear your using.
Go read up on some tournament rules before making a stupid statement like that cause you just look stupid for it.
No, I feel that should the map be the incorrect map or have an erroneous feature a pause is completely justified. Imagine if the map had marines doing double damage. Should pausing in the middle of the game not be allowed because you realise the marines are on perma stim?
On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote: if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe. but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy.
And how is a zerg ever supposed to abuse a ramp with no neutral depot?
But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was GOMs fault, not the abuser.
And how Terran ever supposed to abuse a late game zerg with no good T3 units
But yeah, it was a winning strategy. Kinda pathetic, but some are willing to do anything for a win, you cant really blame them for it. In the end it was Blizzard's fault, not the abuser.
See what I did there?
Only some? ALL progamers should be willing to do anything for a win. Otherwise, it's game throwing.
On July 13 2012 00:39 shadymmj wrote: if byun's base had a depot and nestea's didn't, then maybe you can claim it's unfair, but the situation was the same for both.
it's unfortunate, yes, nestea should have noticed it, maybe. but it's not right to call out a player for using a winning strategy.
dat logic. yes of course because byun was highly at risk to getting blocked off by spine crawlers in the commonly executed double spawning pool spine rush
no one is calling a player out... except maybe it was a cheesy ass strat
people are calling gom out for using a map that is missing a key component that was instituted for balance's sake
see, then the issue is a map balance issue, and not the player's fault. players cannot be blamed for map balance. that was my point.
to use an example I think flash lost to jaedong on a BW map where it was very hard to stop an early pool in certain positions because your marines would always spawn outside your wall. legit win? what did flash do? play better next time.
Their decision overall looks fine but it seems weird that their explanation for it is that there was no complaint in game. That sounds like a really bad excuse
Can people not read or something, nobody thinks NesTea should have won game one with the play he did but he should not have had to deal with the situation at all.
On July 13 2012 01:28 Iksf wrote: Can people not read or something, nobody thinks NesTea should have won game one with the play he did but he should not have had to deal with the situation at all.
Well, the thing is, most of the posts here are saying nestea should have won, not just that game, but the whole series, lol. Mentality and all that shit is getting brought up
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
It's not the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls, because that's actually against the rules, while this is not. The tournament map allowed for the strat to happen and no one really realized it but ByuN. In other words, GSL made it acceptable for a bunker block to happen on Metropolis (which is a really buggy map...idk why it's still in the pool), and ByuN just used that to his advantage. Extreme bad luck for NesTea, but ByuN just did what he can to win. If anything, blame Gom for not checking properly and Bliz for their terrible Bnet 0.2.
keee... I thought progamers should know how to drone drill double bunker walloffs with remote camera by now. guide here. They fall so fast. It's a bad tactic... as long as you pull drones as soon as you see the scvs, there is no way you're not going to break it. But I guess only a select few know about this technique?
It's a huge loss for the terran as you just start mining in your natural once the rush is held off. I think people are just whining about it because they haven't put in the hours to learn the drone drill technique well or feel like the reaction time that is needed to defend vs this is too stressful? I expected nestea to break it with drill, but yeah, didn't happen.
That being said it obviously sucks when maps/tournament organizers don't check things well enough and there is misinformation about things like depots and spawning positions. Especially when people don't react properly by pausing when the issues are discovered. It happens way too often and it's always sad, unprofessional and embarrassing every time. So make sure to check your maps organizers and post the rules loud n clear, and as a player, double check things as much as possible and pause the game when something happens, I guess.
On July 12 2012 22:33 ACrow wrote: Well, sucks that it is a mistake, but nobody in their right mind should blame Byun for this. Neither should Nestea complain about it, he or any other Zerg pro should have noticed in preparation and file a complaint before a match. It's not like it's hidden or something, it's available for play in custom games, so they really should have noticed beforehand.
If you're practicing on the same map that had been in place in every previous gsl game the map was played on (until extremely recently) there's no reason to expect it to change, and if your team wasn't part of the gstl game that had the changed map, why should you be expected to go out of your way to keep up with every single game played that does not affect you?
It's also considerably harder to defend such an attack than it is to complete it.
I'm not saying this is what caused Nestea's series loss, but it's a pretty crappy situation.
Nestea was dicked, plain and simple. I don't see any reason for them to have replayed the entire set, but it's essentially lose/lose in this case. Move on, and Gom's going to be a bit more attentive to their map situation.
Nestea fucked up horribly on defending. He pulled 2 drones. He wouldn't have defended a normal bunker rush. Why do people keep missing this? He had no chance of holding that push with or without the depot because he didn't pull enough workers. Not only did he mess that part up, when trying to focus the scv down, he stopped at 5 hp.
Also, patrolling drone (once you realize there is no depot, which takes 20 ingame seconds) is a good skill to have.
Stop blaming Byun for smashing your 'creator of the universe'
1. Nestea should have known there was no depot. I dont care if every other map last season had it. Not a single game on metropolis this season has had that depot. It was known. 2. Nestea didn't pull drones correctly. 3. Nestea didn't patrol (most diamonders i meet do this) upon noticing
Im not saying he wasn't in a crappy situation. But nestea wasn't dicked, he could have paused instantly upon noticing and asked for a regame. It's actually his fault the game went on. It was up to him whether or not to play it out, he chose to play it out, badly at that.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
It's not the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls, because that's actually against the rules, while this is not. The tournament map allowed for the strat to happen and no one really realized it but ByuN. In other words, GSL made it acceptable for a bunker block to happen on Metropolis (which is a really buggy map...idk why it's still in the pool), and ByuN just used that to his advantage. Extreme bad luck for NesTea, but ByuN just did what he can to win. If anything, blame Gom for not checking properly and Bliz for their terrible Bnet 0.2.
Fine, his argument would have been better as "It's the same as jabbing someone with a tranquilizer dart during some random sporting event where they normally check for tranquilizer darts in order to make sure nobody gets poked with one because, while it's not explicitly in the rules it's simply poor form. In this case, the tranq dart checker guy optimized his tranq dart checker to run faster, but somehow screwed up it's ability to check for tranquilizer darts."
People are so ridiculous when it comes to tearing down metaphors. You get the idea he's trying to make, just like, accept that.
Although I'm sad and upset that this got through GOM's quality control, and am sad that my favorite Zerg, NesTea, didn't win, I respect Byun for doing everything he could to win. We can't know for sure who would have won the series if NesTea won Game 1. Maybe he would have won games 4 and 5.
But GOM made the right decision on the ground. I hope they act well to avoid incidents like this in the future.
Good luck, Byun. You're destined to win this GSL. We can't let a Protoss win, and we sure as hell can't let a Zerg win. Go and show everyone that Terran is still the strongest race.
even if the depot was missing, nestea could've easily held if he just killed that 10hp SCV to prevent the 2nd bunker from finishing. Byun played better in the other two matches as well so i dont think it rlly matters that much, made it easier for Byun at most
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
It's not the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls, because that's actually against the rules, while this is not. The tournament map allowed for the strat to happen and no one really realized it but ByuN. In other words, GSL made it acceptable for a bunker block to happen on Metropolis (which is a really buggy map...idk why it's still in the pool), and ByuN just used that to his advantage. Extreme bad luck for NesTea, but ByuN just did what he can to win. If anything, blame Gom for not checking properly and Bliz for their terrible Bnet 0.2.
Fine, his argument would have been better as "It's the same as jabbing someone with a tranquilizer dart during some random sporting event where they normally check for tranquilizer darts in order to make sure nobody gets poked with one because, while it's not explicitly in the rules it's simply poor form. In this case, the tranq dart checker guy optimized his tranq dart checker to run faster, but somehow screwed up it's ability to check for tranquilizer darts."
People are so ridiculous when it comes to tearing down metaphors. You get the idea he's trying to make, just like, accept that.
I get exactly what he's trying to say. But if he thinks the way the metaphor is put, I just think that's wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with arguing against the metaphor, because metaphors are supposed to show what they think of what actually happened, and if it's misleading then its either 1) they're not too good at making metaphors that fit their idea, or 2) the person's perception of what happened is different from what really happened, or at least what I believe was the case.
The only people who should get shit for this would be GSL for letting the map with no depot get played on. Byun did what any progamer should do: he used the best strategy he could to win. His job is literally to win Sc2 games. I expect no less from the final representative of the Terran race.
On July 13 2012 01:53 Blazinghand wrote: The only people who should get shit for this would be GSL for letting the map with no depot get played on. Byun did what any progamer should do: he used the best strategy he could to win. His job is literally to win Sc2 games. I expect no less from the final representative of the Terran race.
I expect nothing less from any pro gamer on the planet.
You play to win Byun did that He won
End of. If you have an issue with it, it's GOM's side, not the player
Honestly, if SC2's game design didn't need such a band-aid OR battle.net was competent, this wouldn't be an issue. Either way, it's sad this was even possible.
I have nothing against Byun though nor regret for Nestea.
On July 13 2012 02:01 0neder wrote: Honestly, if SC2's game design didn't need such a band-aid OR battle.net was competent, this wouldn't be an issue. Either way, it's sad this was even possible.
I have nothing against Byun though nor regret for Nestea.
Well alot of people argue that it isn't really needed and that the rampblock is a cheese on level with the 6 pool.
It could be argued that with the added queen range it could actually be removed to force zergs to be more active in their defence and be vary. The new queens have allowed zergs to be alot more slacking on their defence.
incontrol said it himself when talking about the 1-1-1 back in the day. If there is a broken strategy that would give a very high chance of winning, you do it. Of course you don't in practice as much, because things like that will either be hotfixed or balanced out in a patch. In this type of case, you do what you need to win. I never practiced 1-1-1 because I felt it would be fairly useless within a month or so, but in a tournament I would certainly whip it out and take a win versus an opponent who would make me feel uncomfortable about my chances.
Call it dishonorable or what you like, but if 6 queen or some other strat gave you a rediculous advantage; why would you not use it? I would rather get a 10% win rate for a month than a 35% win rate for 3 months. Blizzard will have a faster reaction to a bigger difference in winrate. I was kind of hoping that Terran would get demolished in GSL, so they would take a longer look at the change, the fact that Byun has been able to do well everything considered; gives people an excuse to ignore it.
GSL is designed so that you have a lot of time to prepare, and honestly isn't very good for talking balance. Same with GSTL, just because you have someone to snipe a certain player, doesn't mean it should be talked about in the balance discussion or in the numbers. This game has far too many disqualifying factors when it comes to statistics. How much variation and ability to have a high skill cap should be the things we focus on. This is why Terran have had some domination early on; because when a race has almost endless micro capabilities, it really shows when a player like MMA is on top of his game with insane multitasking. Of course the other races have learned to deal with this kind of thing, and the always changing meta game.
tl;dr A win is a win when it comes to tournaments. It was their mistake putting it in the map to begin with. If blizzard adressed the issue in the game to begin with, there would be no problems...
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
I was wondering if IdrA would post on this, and I more or less agree.
I find it disturbing that Byun would hide something of this nature. If it was someone who didn't just recover from a previous scandal (the Byun/Coca one, if a reader doesn't know), then there would be less scrutiny. "you probably shouldn't have done that." But now it's strike # 2. It's all the more ironic that he would notice this during a game vs Coca.
I don't think Byun deserves any official punishment, but a rule of thumb should probably be put into place: "if you notice something is wrong with map, don't hide it." Wording it that way, I kinda thought such a rule already existed.
As to NesTea, maybe he doesn't like making official complaints, maybe he was flustered. Maybe some random thought told him: "I'm better than Byun and this doesn't really matter," only to have that completely blow up in his face. Who knows? It's really impossible to prove who would have won, one way or the other, but I think given the overall performance (I didn't see any of tonight's games, but reading the comments of others, and knowing the final score), Byun would have won anyway.
Edit: Also, it's GOM's fault too/their mapmaker person, but that should go without saying, yet I feel someone will "remind" me
On July 13 2012 02:01 0neder wrote: Honestly, if SC2's game design didn't need such a band-aid OR battle.net was competent, this wouldn't be an issue. Either way, it's sad this was even possible.
I have nothing against Byun though nor regret for Nestea.
Well alot of people argue that it isn't really needed and that the rampblock is a cheese on level with the 6 pool.
It could be argued that with the added queen range it could actually be removed to force zergs to be more active in their defence and be vary. The new queens have allowed zergs to be alot more slacking on their defence.
I wrote it before, but I think bigger problem here is the SCV movement inconsistency during construction. I don't mind not having neutral depot there AS LONG AS SCV movement is predictable and Zerg player can respond with a reason. Currently, SCV movement looks random, so there is no "correct" response given a situation after bunkers are up. Random number generator could move a SCV to narrow position where Zerg player cannot reach, or it might decide to move it to open space. Everything else in game seems "deterministic" while this looks totally random.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
I did not think of it that way and the preplanning does put a wrinkle into my views byun's strategy for the match up. It is one thing to take advantage of an situtation that comes up during a match, like your opponent's keyboard or mouse malfunctioning. No one would has a problem with that. But pre-planning to use a feature that puts your opponent at a disadvantage, that you know has been removed from every other map, is a little to cut throat for my liking. It it had come up on only that match, he had spotted that the depot was gone and then quickly used the bunker block, that would be different.
On July 13 2012 02:01 0neder wrote: Honestly, if SC2's game design didn't need such a band-aid OR battle.net was competent, this wouldn't be an issue. Either way, it's sad this was even possible.
I have nothing against Byun though nor regret for Nestea.
Well alot of people argue that it isn't really needed and that the rampblock is a cheese on level with the 6 pool.
It could be argued that with the added queen range it could actually be removed to force zergs to be more active in their defence and be vary. The new queens have allowed zergs to be alot more slacking on their defence.
I wrote it before, but I think bigger problem here is the SCV movement inconsistency during construction. I don't mind not having neutral depot there AS LONG AS SCV movement is predictable and Zerg player can respond with a reason. Currently, SCV movement looks random, so there is no "correct" response given a situation after bunkers are up. Random number generator could move a SCV to narrow position where Zerg player cannot reach, or it might decide to move it to open space. Everything else in game seems "deterministic" while this looks totally random.
That would introduce a new form of map imbalance. If you have the SCV at a predictable spot, then there will be spawn locations where the SCV will always be under threat of getting killed. There HAS to be the movement or else there will be cases where a Terran will just lose because he can't make a barracks, or even the supply depot
On July 13 2012 01:13 Griffith` wrote: SC2 nerds are such cry babies about these "map imbalances" lol
Chokes/ramps/abuses/cliff drops/map imbalances are no where NEAR as abusive as they were in BW
jesus christ
relatives to murder victims are such cry babies lol during middle ages, ww2 and the reign of the red khmers people died in horrible ways, way more horrible than getting shot. jesus christ.
poor africans working at banana plantations and cotton plantations and with toxic shit are such cry babies lol back in the 18th century people usually died at the age of 44 ... jesus christ inb4 people dont understand sarcasm yes this is VERY exaggerated and in no way similar events except in one way it is and I was obviously typing this to show Griffith` how stupid his comment is and how little sense it makes.
If you need that, then maybe your analogy was very silly and not very helpful at all...
That's messed up Gom, messed up. Big leagues like this should somehow be held accountable for self-admitted mistakes like these that significantly adversely affect the players. They can't regame the series, and truth be told Nestea lost 3-0 (although he could have tilted after this loss - other pros have been known to do this), but perhaps some sort of fine that they pay the player or SOMEthing. Poor NesTea just gets told "Well, SOL for you buddy, sorry." And that's unacceptable from a large league like this.
On July 13 2012 01:13 Griffith` wrote: SC2 nerds are such cry babies about these "map imbalances" lol
Chokes/ramps/abuses/cliff drops/map imbalances are no where NEAR as abusive as they were in BW
jesus christ
relatives to murder victims are such cry babies lol during middle ages, ww2 and the reign of the red khmers people died in horrible ways, way more horrible than getting shot. jesus christ. poor africans working at banana plantations and cotton plantations and with toxic shit are such cry babies lol back in the 18th century people usually died at the age of 44 ... jesus christ inb4 people dont understand sarcasm yes this is VERY exaggerated and in no way similar events except in one way it is and I was obviously typing this to show Griffith` how stupid his comment is and how little sense it makes.
you thought that was bad? i had to live in a folded up newspaper on the side of the road! my whole family fit in there and we got along just nicely without neutral supply depots!
I still think the players should complained about this missing feature right away. Either today, in game/right after the game or even better, the first time they spotted it. I mean, it's been like that for two weeks and nobody questioned GomTV? It's similar when you notice wrong version, for example gold base or spawn pattern, you complain immediately, right? It's not like we have Kespa anymore where you get disqualified for pausing the game...
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
I was wondering if IdrA would post on this, and I more or less agree.
I find it disturbing that Byun would hide something of this nature. If it was someone who didn't just recover from a previous scandal (the Byun/Coca one, if a reader doesn't know), then there would be less scrutiny. "you probably shouldn't have done that." But now it's strike # 2. It's all the more ironic that he would notice this during a game vs Coca.
I don't think Byun deserves any official punishment, but a rule of thumb should probably be put into place: "if you notice something is wrong with map, don't hide it." Wording it that way, I kinda thought such a rule already existed.
As to NesTea, maybe he doesn't like making official complaints, maybe he was flustered. Maybe some random thought told him: "I'm better than Byun and this doesn't really matter," only to have that completely blow up in his face. Who knows? It's really impossible to prove who would have won, one way or the other, but I think given the overall performance (I didn't see any of tonight's games, but reading the comments of others, and knowing the final score), Byun would have won anyway.
Edit: Also, it's GOM's fault too/their mapmaker person, but that should go without saying, yet I feel someone will "remind" me
I find it very weird that Byun is somehow the player that gets the blame for this. By the logic you people are using, every single person who played on metropolis this season should have actually mentioned it to GOM. Metropolis has been played about what, 12 times so far this season? 12 times games have been played on it and not a single player has reported that there is a neutral supply depot lacking? As a pro player you WILL notice a neutral supply depot lacking. If this far into the season not a single player mentioned anything, then it is very very unreasonable to blame Byun and Byun alone when he actually uses the strategy a neutral supply depot was supposed to prevent. If you're going to blame a player, blame every single player that has played on Metropolis this season. Which of course would be stupid, because the blame is fully on GOM and the mapmakers.
It was an honest mistake, which can always happen.
I dont think those neutral supply depots should be there in the first place. Are we really saying as a community x strategy is imbalanced and theres no way to patch or otherwise find away around it but FORCE it to be impossible? I find that absurd, and I've played on a lot of maps without the depot and stopped said rushes from happening, or won despite them. Admittedly im no GM, but I think its a lazy edit and kind of works against the entire premise of sc2 being a valid competitive esport.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
I was wondering if IdrA would post on this, and I more or less agree.
I find it disturbing that Byun would hide something of this nature. If it was someone who didn't just recover from a previous scandal (the Byun/Coca one, if a reader doesn't know), then there would be less scrutiny. "you probably shouldn't have done that." But now it's strike # 2. It's all the more ironic that he would notice this during a game vs Coca.
I don't think Byun deserves any official punishment, but a rule of thumb should probably be put into place: "if you notice something is wrong with map, don't hide it." Wording it that way, I kinda thought such a rule already existed.
As to NesTea, maybe he doesn't like making official complaints, maybe he was flustered. Maybe some random thought told him: "I'm better than Byun and this doesn't really matter," only to have that completely blow up in his face. Who knows? It's really impossible to prove who would have won, one way or the other, but I think given the overall performance (I didn't see any of tonight's games, but reading the comments of others, and knowing the final score), Byun would have won anyway.
Edit: Also, it's GOM's fault too/their mapmaker person, but that should go without saying, yet I feel someone will "remind" me
I find it very weird that Byun is somehow the player that gets the blame for this. By the logic you people are using, every single person who played on metropolis this season should have actually mentioned it to GOM. Metropolis has been played about what, 12 times so far this season? 12 times games have been played on it and not a single player has reported that there is a neutral supply depot lacking? As a pro player you WILL notice a neutral supply depot lacking. If this far into the season not a single player mentioned anything, then it is very very unreasonable to blame Byun and Byun alone when he actually uses the strategy a neutral supply depot was supposed to prevent. If you're going to blame a player, blame every single player that has played on Metropolis this season. Which of course would be stupid, because the blame is fully on GOM and the mapmakers.
It was an honest mistake, which can always happen.
Dat Logic. You wrote what i have been trying to imply forever, in a much more neat way.
The only good KR progamer by all these peoples standards is Byun.
I find it appalling people will blame Byun for this. It is absolutely the responsibility of GOM to ensure that their maps are correct and up to date. If they make a mistake and don't notice something like this (it is possible) it is up to the player to announce it during a game (perfectly legitimate reason for a pause) or even make an official complaint after it has cost them the game when the depot is supposed to be there (NesTea or his coach could have done this after Game 1). It is absolutely not the responsibility of Byun to call attention to an error in the map. It's Byun's responsibility to win the series, and since he knew a once-abusive strat was now possible again, I don't blame him at all for using it.
People's anger here should be focused at GOM for screwing this up so royally, not Byun.
Find a weakness and exploit it. Simple as. Everyone crying that Byun is the bad guy, you're pathetic. Would you of said no I'm not going to use this strat which is almost 100% winrate in the highest SC2 league on the planet? I doubt it, I highly highly doubt it.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
I was wondering if IdrA would post on this, and I more or less agree.
I find it disturbing that Byun would hide something of this nature. If it was someone who didn't just recover from a previous scandal (the Byun/Coca one, if a reader doesn't know), then there would be less scrutiny. "you probably shouldn't have done that." But now it's strike # 2. It's all the more ironic that he would notice this during a game vs Coca.
I don't think Byun deserves any official punishment, but a rule of thumb should probably be put into place: "if you notice something is wrong with map, don't hide it." Wording it that way, I kinda thought such a rule already existed.
As to NesTea, maybe he doesn't like making official complaints, maybe he was flustered. Maybe some random thought told him: "I'm better than Byun and this doesn't really matter," only to have that completely blow up in his face. Who knows? It's really impossible to prove who would have won, one way or the other, but I think given the overall performance (I didn't see any of tonight's games, but reading the comments of others, and knowing the final score), Byun would have won anyway.
Edit: Also, it's GOM's fault too/their mapmaker person, but that should go without saying, yet I feel someone will "remind" me
The fault lies on GOM for using this version of the map not on player's ethics.
I see nothing wrong with what ByuN did, so I can't really fault him for it. He noticed that the GSL version didn't use a depo and used the map in his favour to win. Good for him, not as good for NesTea obviously. But imagine if he would have gone for this strategy only to notice that the version on todays game had a depo down there now, that would have sucked lol.
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
It's def his mistake, that doesn't mean it's his fault.
If some guy threaten you with a stick, and you jump out the window of third floor break 10 bones, that does not make it your fault, you just made dumb decisions that made the situation worse.
Or if someone swivels into your lane while driving, you panics and slams on the break, causing the car behind you to hit you, does that make it your fault?
On July 13 2012 02:55 Gosi wrote: I see nothing wrong with what ByuN did, so I can't really fault him for it. He noticed that the GSL version didn't use a depo and used the map in his favour to win. Good for him, not as good for NesTea obviously. But imagine if he would have gone for this strategy only to notice that the version on todays game had a depo down there now, that would have sucked lol.
Chances are he had a normal strat for the map, then if the depots werent there he would do the bunker thing
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with.
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with.
You should of course practice on the official map hosted by the official hosting account. Because that is the map that you will be playing on, unless you notice it is wrong and decide to tell the organization about that.
By deciding to not practice on the official map you accept the risk that you are playing on another map, regardless whether that fault is made by you or the tournament.
Also the wording 'keep copy pasting' is quite interesting considering it's the first and only time I have copy pasted them. The reasoning behind that is because the main point still stands: NesTea fucked up by not knowing it beforehand but most of all not doing anything during the match.
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with.
wut? did u read? that was the official map its been bugged for a few weeks.... aka if nestea was practicing on gsl metro recently there was no depot
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with.
You should of course practice on the official map hosted by the official hosting account. Because that is the map that you will be playing on, unless you notice it is wrong and decide to tell the organization about that.
By deciding to not practice on the official map you accept the risk that you are playing on another map, regardless whether that fault is made by you or the tournament.
Also the wording 'keep copy pasting' is quite interesting considering it's the first and only time I have copy pasted them. The reasoning behind that is because the main point still stands: NesTea fucked up by not knowing it beforehand but most of all not doing anything during the match.
I think we can all accept that NesTea probably should have held that bunker rush anyways, given that the scv lived with 5 life, he pulled his drones back, etc. And if he were playing perfectly (as we know NesTea can), he'd patrol a drone or something after noticing the supply depot.
I think the point people are making, though, is that although NesTea's mistakes lost him the game, a game that Byun fairly won, when there are weird accidental changes to the maps like this, it's GOM's fault. It lowers the quality of play and the amount of fun watching the game if suddenly a balancing factor in the map is gone. Like if antiga's middle expos became gold or something.
Yeah, NesTea should have noticed, or paused, or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, GOM fucked up. They dropped the ball. NesTea didn't catch the ball, but that doesn't mean GOM didn't drop it. I hope they take appropriate measures in the future to ensure quality control on their maps.
I can't really blame GOM either since it seems to be such an easy thing to miss. How many pro players watched the games with that map since the version without depots got swapped in? And Byun seems to be one of the only ones to notice. So I can't really blame GOM. It's unfortunate that this had to happen for it to be noticed, but I don't really blame anybody for it. Maybe battle.net for causing the depots to not show up?
It's a big thing, but it's an easy thing to miss. The mapmaker didn't notice (maybe he could have checked more closely, but still easy to miss.), GOM didn't notice, most fans and pro players didn't notice, and those that did notice didn't say anything to GOM because they assumed that GOM knew.
On July 13 2012 01:28 Iksf wrote: Can people not read or something, nobody thinks NesTea should have won game one with the play he did but he should not have had to deal with the situation at all.
Well, the thing is, most of the posts here are saying nestea should have won, not just that game, but the whole series, lol. Mentality and all that shit is getting brought up
But thats not actually what people are saying, reading the entire post theres like 3 people who think it should be regamed and about 10x the amount people hating on the people who think it should have been regamed.
Personally I think its deplorable that Gom didnt regame on their own when they realized they had a problem in the map. Even though NesTea was in a totally winnable position that was mostly due to a pretty sloppy 2 rax, if Byun had another SCV to continue building the bunker NesTea would have lost purely due to the imbalance of the strategy.
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with.
You should of course practice on the official map hosted by the official hosting account. Because that is the map that you will be playing on, unless you notice it is wrong and decide to tell the organization about that.
By deciding to not practice on the official map you accept the risk that you are playing on another map, regardless whether that fault is made by you or the tournament.
Also the wording 'keep copy pasting' is quite interesting considering it's the first and only time I have copy pasted them. The reasoning behind that is because the main point still stands: NesTea fucked up by not knowing it beforehand but most of all not doing anything during the match.
There are players and referees. I don't know why you think Nestea needs to be a referee in your first two questions.
On July 13 2012 03:27 Azurues wrote: imo the match winner still will not change
and to be honest it is NesTea fault for failing to defend it too after seeing the 2nd rax
Regarding your first point, we can't know for sure. It's possible without this strat, Byun would still have won game 1. Maybe he'd have lost it, though, and Nestea would have won games 4 and 5. We can't know for sure, which is sad. Byun looked amazing, though, I think he would have won... it's just annoying that GOM overlooked this. It's like, their job to prevent stuff like this from happening ;_;
1. queens were buffed since they implemented the depot originally 2. nestea scouted 2nd rax way before any bunker was started 3. nestea had plenty of time to kill one if not both scvs and blew it 4. he shuda pulled more drones down to his natural to stop reenforcements from gettin in before either bunker started
Im an IM fan but Terran is the way to be. I love that Byun abused this fact and I hope they do away with the supply depots on all maps in the future
If it's anyone's fault for letting this pass by, it's every zerg's obligation to point it out since they're pretty much the one's who enforced this "new regulation" to maps that are played in these tournaments. As a zerg, I would definitely notice that something is up since these kinds of cheeses are open to exploitations at any given moment
Pretty sneaky of Byun to perform his act, but on the other hand...
Two weeks... surely at least ONE OTHER person would have noticed something was off. It's not like GOM or any other tournaments hide the map pool from the public until the day of the match. I do believe this is honestly entirely NesTea's fault for not reporting it beforehand, and bungling his defense.
1: ByuN noticed the change in the map, which hosted many games over weeks, and took advantage of it, no problem with it at all. 2: NesTea was not to blame but he did react poorly and deserved to lose for not pause when the 2 bunkers building and / or defend it properly. 3: GomTV messed up there, even though it's a easy thing to miss, and everyone except ByuN did, it is still their responsibility. They should apologize to NesTea and maybe some form of compensation. 4: GomTV maybe should intervened when the bunkers were going up and order a re-game at that moment. 5: The decision to not do anything after the game was over was correct. 6: It is not likely, though not completely impossible, that one incident changed the outcome of the series, since ByuN clearly played better today. 7: If that incident affected NesTea's psyche, which I highly doubt given what he already accomplished, NesTea have no one but himself to blame. 8: With the queen buff maybe it is time to do away with the supply depot altogether, though not in the form of a sneak attack.
On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote: What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun...
He lost the other two games pretty bad also...
Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote: What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun...
He lost the other two games pretty bad also...
Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
why would you report it? how was Byun supposed to know that they hadn't changed the map on purpose? furthermore, why is it his responsibility to make sure that Nestea has every advantage he can possibly get?
LOL @ idra's metaphor... that's not even close dude -.-
There is no "bug" that causes depots to be removed during uploading. The depots are literally a few lines of code within an .xml file that sits in the map archive that puts it all together. The same lines of code maintain where minerals and geysers are placed, xel'naga towers, etc.
The mapmaker goofed, and should be owning up to it. This is no different then when I goofed on Vicious and Thorzain spotted it during Dreamhack finals. He didn't test his changes properly, end of story. This is another example of how important playtesting and feedback are in the map design process.Mistakes happen, and that's fine. We learn from our mistakes. Just need to improve the change and testing procedure, same as ESV did after the Vicious incident. What bothers me here is that he claims it's it was an editor bug.
On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote: What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun...
He lost the other two games pretty bad also...
Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
How is that an obvious bug though? It's been there whole season; it's standard for ladder map; no one ever thought it was a bug before that game, including his practice partners (Zerg players), whom I'm sure he used exact build on (and no, CoCa did not conspire with him to abuse it, that's just silly); there were discussion during L/R thread to whether it was intentional since it can be argued the new queen range make the supply depot not necessary, the discussion itself suggest it is not "obvious" a bug; we did not know for sure it was a bug until after this thread. How can you claim after the fact that it was "an obvious bug" when it was not obvious at all?
Had it been down to a wire like DRG vs Nani, then fans should complain. But since PuppyPrime laid the smack on bosstea....I think people should just get over it.
fix map for the future.
oh yea, I guess that means DRG sabotaged Nestea indirectly... hehe
On July 12 2012 22:17 Waxangel wrote: [...] According to the map maker "There's a bug that causes neutral supply depots to disappear sometimes when uploading to battle.net." [...]
Interesting excuse. Can't imagine such a thing actually happens. I mean depots are units, just like minerals, gas geysers or watchtowers. And those never disappeared when I uploaded a map either...
Well whatever mapmaking is a bit of a mess (right now).
On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote: What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun...
He lost the other two games pretty bad also...
Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
How is that an obvious bug though? It's been there whole season; it's standard for ladder map; no one ever thought it was a bug before that game, including his practice partners (Zerg players), whom I'm sure he used exact build on (and no, CoCa did not conspire with him to abuse it, that's just silly); there were discussion during L/R thread to whether it was intentional since it can be argued the new queen range make the supply depot not necessary, the discussion itself suggest it is not "obvious" a bug; we did not know for sure it was a bug until after this thread. How can you claim after the fact that it was "an obvious bug" when it was not obvious at all?
It's been there for 2weeks, not the whole season. And a lot of people weren't sure since John said it wasn't a bug at first when people were really questioning it the instant they saw it in the live report thread.
On July 13 2012 02:50 Titorelli wrote: What an epic GOM fail... Thanks for the info, I was wondering how Nestea couldve lost to Byun...
He lost the other two games pretty bad also...
Seems kind of unprofessional for Byun to exploit an obvious bug, and it's really inevitable that this is going to take away from his otherwise convincing win. Would it really hurt him that much to just report the bug when he noticed it instead of trying to exploit it? He won a game with it but it definitely showed some lack of sportsmanship there.
How is that an obvious bug though? It's been there whole season; it's standard for ladder map; no one ever thought it was a bug before that game, including his practice partners (Zerg players), whom I'm sure he used exact build on (and no, CoCa did not conspire with him to abuse it, that's just silly); there were discussion during L/R thread to whether it was intentional since it can be argued the new queen range make the supply depot not necessary, the discussion itself suggest it is not "obvious" a bug; we did not know for sure it was a bug until after this thread. How can you claim after the fact that it was "an obvious bug" when it was not obvious at all?
Ok I may be wrong, but isn't it normal for all GSL maps to have a depot at the ramp? It would be very unusual for such an important change to be made without informing the players too, and only to a specific map.
Anyway for Byun to notice such a change and to plan his strategy around it, without at least checking that it was a deliberate change (highly unlikely), seems to imply he knew it was a bug. IMO it's really hard to say that Byun was not out to exploit this from what I read. I guess he's not really obligated to report it, but to gain an advantage like this is hardly commendable.
It's amazing that people missed it, I mean I definitely didn't notice, but then again the viewers aren't as acquainted with the maps as GomTV or the people in charge of the maps themselves.
Regarding what Byun did, it's frowned upon, but I'll be honest, Byun completely outclassed nestea in games 2 and 3. It's not like DRG vs Naniwa where if they played another Bo5 naniwa might win. With the response nestea did, even if there was a depot he could've still lost to a bunker rush because he only pulled 2 drones. From recent games most zergs pull around a half dozen to stop a 2 rax because when the situation isn't snowballing out of control, it's much more manageable. Losing like that sucks, but a 3 time GSL champion should honestly be able to shrug it off, and recover mentally in time for the next game.
I think that series was staged, if you notice in game 1 nestea could have prevented it multiple times, i.e. he had 2 drones killing the scv, but he left when the scv had like 5hp and he didnt even go back to kill him... he then made spines and cancled them... seems staged imo.
On July 13 2012 04:39 mitchdouble wrote: I think that series was staged, if you notice in game 1 nestea could have prevented it multiple times, i.e. he had 2 drones killing the scv, but he left when the scv had like 5hp and he didnt even go back to kill him... he then made spines and cancled them... seems staged imo.
That's a very interesting point of view. Yet, the situation is already controversial enough. It is courageous of you to bring in another controversial idea.
Byun should definitely NOT be blamed. It's obviously Gom's fault. No matter how you look at it, Byun broke no actual rules. He saw an advantage he could take, and took it. Do whatever it takes to win. No matter how "dishonorable" or whatever it seems.
On July 13 2012 02:54 Geiko wrote: Wasn't everyone cheering for Nazgul when he used the Kulas Ravine blink exploit ?
Don't see why people are blaming Byun now ...
How was the Kulas Ravine an exploit? It just was something that people didn't think of before.
Having said that I feel that laying the blame at Byun is just laughable; the only one to blame here is NesTea.
I don't think you can really "blame" Nestea. He reacted really poorly, but he is still the victim. GoMTV have all the responsibility to make sure their map is up to standard.
No absolutely not, of course NesTea is to blame for this. Let me ask you three simple yes or no questions.
1) Should it be a part of practicing for a series that you play on the maps that you are supposed to be playing? 2) Should NesTea have paused the game as soon as he noticed that the map was wrong? 3) Should NesTea have pulled more then two drones to defend an 11/11 rax; regardless of what map it was or where the bunkers were placed?
Now if you say yes to any of these questions: how can you claim it isn't NesTea's mistake?
You keep copy pasting this when your first question is simply wrong. You won't practice on a map/version that shouldn't be in the tournament to begin with.
You should of course practice on the official map hosted by the official hosting account. Because that is the map that you will be playing on, unless you notice it is wrong and decide to tell the organization about that.
By deciding to not practice on the official map you accept the risk that you are playing on another map, regardless whether that fault is made by you or the tournament.
Also the wording 'keep copy pasting' is quite interesting considering it's the first and only time I have copy pasted them. The reasoning behind that is because the main point still stands: NesTea fucked up by not knowing it beforehand but most of all not doing anything during the match.
People say teams should practice on the official GSL map version, but don't pros like to play custom games of versions of the maps edited to hide build order and winner information on battlenet to prevent opponents from looking at what they are planning and practicing? If the official GSL tournament version doesn't do this (does anybody know?) I think it is wrong to say that teams should have to take a risk in order to practice in secret because then you are forcing them to take a bigger risk if their opponents find out some of the team's accounts they practice on.
Neither of those risks should be part of the tournament.
On July 13 2012 04:39 mitchdouble wrote: I think that series was staged, if you notice in game 1 nestea could have prevented it multiple times, i.e. he had 2 drones killing the scv, but he left when the scv had like 5hp and he didnt even go back to kill him... he then made spines and cancled them... seems staged imo.
That's a very interesting point of view. Yet, the situation is already controversial enough. It is courageous of you to bring in another controversial idea.
And by interesting i hope you mean completely fucking retarded..
The only way I can really see someone blaming Byun here is he saw the map had no depot beforehand (unlike ever other GSL map used for the past year), and instead of saying "hey, this map doesn't have a neutral supply depot" and reporting it he took that knowledge and used it to catch Nestea off guard.
I don't really know if there's a good analogy for this. It'd sort of be like finding a loophole in the rulebook and instead of saying "hey that's fucked up" you use the loophole to your advantage. The problem is he knew beforehand and said nothing about it.
I still don't really blame Byun for what happened. The tournament admins should've immediately recognized the map was missing its' neutral supply depot and immediately regamed. Hell, the admins could've done it when the bunker went down. I don't think anyone would've had any way to argue against the admins stopping the game and saying "Whoa, this map is not standard." It shouldn't be on Byun to police the GSL map pool.
On July 13 2012 04:39 mitchdouble wrote: I think that series was staged, if you notice in game 1 nestea could have prevented it multiple times, i.e. he had 2 drones killing the scv, but he left when the scv had like 5hp and he didnt even go back to kill him... he then made spines and cancled them... seems staged imo.
I'm honestly impressed at how vivid your imagination must be if it was able to make this up in your head to the point that you'd actually believe it yourself.
I don't think this warrants a thread, just stirs up unnecessary drama since Nestea himself could've paused the game if he had been taken by surprise, which obviously didn't happen, even if he had, it's his fault for not preparing, also, Byun completely, utterly outplayed Nestea in the following games and using the tilt excuse for such an experienced player is just laughable, keep on trying to take this away from Byun tho, I want to laugh more.
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
On July 13 2012 05:00 Swords wrote: The only way I can really see someone blaming Byun here is he saw the map had no depot beforehand (unlike ever other GSL map used for the past year), and instead of saying "hey, this map doesn't have a neutral supply depot" and reporting it he took that knowledge and used it to catch Nestea off guard.
I don't really know if there's a good analogy for this. It'd sort of be like finding a loophole in the rulebook and instead of saying "hey that's fucked up" you use the loophole to your advantage. The problem is he knew beforehand and said nothing about it.
I still don't really blame Byun for what happened. The tournament admins should've immediately recognized the map was missing its' neutral supply depot and immediately regamed. Hell, the admins could've done it when the bunker went down. I don't think anyone would've had any way to argue against the admins stopping the game and saying "Whoa, this map is not standard." It shouldn't be on Byun to police the GSL map pool.
Again, blaming only byun for that is nonsensical. There have been dozens of other games on this version of metalopolis this GSL and GSTL season, why should he be blamed for it when it should have been reported about 20 times already?
People are right, it absolutely is GOM's fault. But how is it not Byuns' fault as well? In almost every competitive video game, bug abuse is against the rules and wrong. If he really did knowingly plan this strategy, that's pretty majorly unethical.
37) 2001 SKY OSL 1st game incident - It was Boxer vs Garimto in the SKY OSL finals. The map was Incubus and at the middle of the game, Boxer's dropship is roaming around an island that was next to Garimto's nat. People thought this weird because the dropship never did anything. Later it was found that the version of Incubus that Boxer received from OGN to practice on allowed a tank to be dropped on the spot. But the version of Incubus that was used in the finals didn't allow the drop. Boxer lost that game and eventually lost 2:3 to Garimto, making Garimto the first ever protoss user to win 2 OSL titles.
That said, I think it's GOM's fault, but Nestea still probably knew about it.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
I was wondering if IdrA would post on this, and I more or less agree.
I find it disturbing that Byun would hide something of this nature. If it was someone who didn't just recover from a previous scandal (the Byun/Coca one, if a reader doesn't know), then there would be less scrutiny. "you probably shouldn't have done that." But now it's strike # 2. It's all the more ironic that he would notice this during a game vs Coca.
I don't think Byun deserves any official punishment, but a rule of thumb should probably be put into place: "if you notice something is wrong with map, don't hide it." Wording it that way, I kinda thought such a rule already existed.
As to NesTea, maybe he doesn't like making official complaints, maybe he was flustered. Maybe some random thought told him: "I'm better than Byun and this doesn't really matter," only to have that completely blow up in his face. Who knows? It's really impossible to prove who would have won, one way or the other, but I think given the overall performance (I didn't see any of tonight's games, but reading the comments of others, and knowing the final score), Byun would have won anyway.
Edit: Also, it's GOM's fault too/their mapmaker person, but that should go without saying, yet I feel someone will "remind" me
It was an honest mistake, which can always happen.
If it was an honest mistake, that sucks for Nestea, but it's legitimate. The fact that he noticed this (clearly buggy) aspect of the map and planned on abusing in game makes him a scumbag.
On July 13 2012 05:13 Ollix wrote: People are right, it absolutely is GOM's fault. But how is it not Byuns' fault as well? In almost every competitive video game, bug abuse is against the rules and wrong. If he really did knowingly plan this strategy, that's pretty majorly unethical.
In almost every competitive game, bugs are actually used to their fullest extent (e.g most fps such as quake or cs with strafejump, or even scbw with stuff like muta-stacking etc, all these are bugs). Yes it is GOM's fault, but no way is it Byun's fault, who didn't cheat in any way.
On July 13 2012 03:06 ragz_gt wrote: It's def his mistake, that doesn't mean it's his fault.
If some guy threaten you with a stick, and you jump out the window of third floor break 10 bones, that does not make it your fault, you just made dumb decisions that made the situation worse.
Or if someone swivels into your lane while driving, you panics and slams on the break, causing the car behind you to hit you, does that make it your fault?
It was the Firefighters fault for removing the trampoline that I was supposed to land on even though it was blatently obvious before jumping it was no longer there but I had 10 other things on my mind to notice
Thinking about this a bit more I really feel for Nestea, I can only imagine how much he was raging inside when two bunkers somehow blocked his entire ramp. And for that to happen on the very first game, how could he not be a bit tilted for the rest of the series. Quite a shame, hopefully GOM never lets this happen again.
i still say the neutral supply depots are dumb. sc2 is at a level where people shouldnt be interfering with maps to prevent certain strategies from working when the players themselves could hold them off. even with the "bug"(not really a bug), nestea could have held that off fine and completely blew it.
Losing the first game so quick and easy does have an impact on you no matter how high level you are. You get mixed emotions and makes it hard to concentrate. I feel like it played a vital role in Nestea's overall performance, he just wasn't himself today. I wish the set could be replayed but nothing we can do will change that.
On July 13 2012 03:06 ragz_gt wrote: It's def his mistake, that doesn't mean it's his fault.
If some guy threaten you with a stick, and you jump out the window of third floor break 10 bones, that does not make it your fault, you just made dumb decisions that made the situation worse.
Or if someone swivels into your lane while driving, you panics and slams on the break, causing the car behind you to hit you, does that make it your fault?
It was the Firefighters fault for removing the trampoline that I was supposed to land on even though it was blatently obvious before jumping it was no longer there but I had 10 other things on my mind to notice
People and their terrible analogies. I got one too! GOM = Security NesTea = Store Byun = Shoplifter
GOM should be blamed for Byuns crime because their security wasn't up to snuff and couldn't prevent him from shoplifting, right? RIGHT?!
Or maybe Nestea should be blamed for not taking initiative and preventing the shoplifting by training his staff properly?
Or maybe Byun should be blamed because he actually shoplifted?!
GOD, I'M SO CONFUSED!!! WHO DO I BLAME?!
Or maybe... just maybe... We take a look at the security employee that caused the error that allowed the shoplifter to get away. Especially if he was aware of the possibility of the error but did nothing to test or prevent it.
As far as I'm concerned, it is now an invalid result. This GSL is completely tainted, as Nestea could have come back to win. Its not definite, but its no where near impossible.
That's pretty retarded, you'd THINK there'd be some higher level of professionalism from all involved parties and ESPECIALLY not even giving Nestea a break... His fault ultimately for not speaking up though.
Although Byun didn't do the most honorable shit in the world, he's certainly not accountable for this, he does what it takes to win, he noticed an exploit given to him by GOM, he exploited it. I for one was certainly happy when he bunker blocked huhuhu, like the Terran that I am :D The Prime Terrans don't back off when it comes to winning, it's like they sell their souls. Let's say to the Prime Evils, kekeke.
Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote: Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it Nestea is 100% responsible for his loss, even though GOM could've done something about it, it's not really warranted anymore.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it Nestea is 100% responsible for his loss, even though GOM could've done something about it, it's not really warranted anymore.
If we believe the mapmaker: the suply depots vanished when uploading. That IS a bug, no matter if the result is "fine".
On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote: Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
How can you assume the proper map was not used before this thread though? As far as anyone knows it IS the proper map for two weeks. In addition, it's arguable that with the queen range buff the neutral depot is not necessary, especially on Metropolis which is a VERY Z favored map. So it's not unreasonable to think it is the intended change on the map to make it more balanced.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it Nestea is 100% responsible for his loss, even though GOM could've done something about it, it's not really warranted anymore.
If we believe the mapmaker: the suply depots vanished when uploading. That IS a bug, no matter if the result is "fine".
Guys from ESV have indicated in this thread that is total bullshit, their is NO depot vanishing bug, their mapmaker goofed.
it wasn't a bug...it was the game-creator's fault for picking the wrong map...or the map editor for not including a neutral supply depot which is on every other map...Which our great IdrA has stated.
On July 13 2012 05:19 Destiny wrote: If it was an honest mistake, that sucks for Nestea, but it's legitimate. The fact that he noticed this (clearly buggy) aspect of the map and planned on abusing in game makes him a scumbag.
Oh not you too, Destiny. I thought you had more common sense. "Hey mister, I noticed you had a tell of touching your nose every time you made a bluff and I want to win this poker game fair and square and I don't want to be a scumbag."
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
This isn't Byun's fault, it's GOM's. GOM is responsible for making sure their maps are correct and informing players of any changes. The map should never have been played on. It's also Nestea's fault that he didn't watch the freaking VoD of the very last TvZ Byun played on that map and didn't pause.
What Byun did was in poor taste and he should have notified the admins as soon as he noticed, but it's not his fault.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it Nestea is 100% responsible for his loss, even though GOM could've done something about it, it's not really warranted anymore.
If we believe the mapmaker: the suply depots vanished when uploading. That IS a bug, no matter if the result is "fine".
Nope, still not a bug, you could say that a bug occurred while uploading the map, but the fact that it has been available to everyone and played in the GSL/GSTL in recent games means it's not a bug, but an accepted feature, it's not something unexpected and supposedly impossible, I doubt that Byun thought that he was exploiting something only he knew about at all, there's also the fact that in this day and age anyone can deny it without much trouble, aka all that's warranted here is a l2p.
On July 13 2012 05:47 lavit2099 wrote: Why didn't Nestea ask for a pause and talk to an admin about it? It's obvious the map wasn't correct.
Exactly, and John said (mistakenly) on twitter that the map didn't have a depot to being with. Funny how everyone so sure this was a bug AFTER the report came out while not even GOM themselves know for sure before.
On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote: Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
Maybe I have different philosophy from some people, but as a competitor, you are supposed to exploit the fact that a judge messed up if it helps you win a match. Competitors are expected to do anything that is not clearly banned by rules. GOM hosted a game without depot, your opponent didn't pause the game, then why not try a strategy you think would work very well? At that point, rule clearly did not ban/prevent the strategy, so Byun proceeded. Nothing wrong with that.
On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote: Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
Maybe I have different philosophy from some people, but as a competitor, you are supposed to exploit the fact that a judge messed up if it helps you win a match. Competitors are expected to do anything that is not clearly banned by rules. GOM hosted a game without depot, your opponent didn't pause the game, then why not try a strategy you think would work very well? At that point, rule clearly did not ban/prevent the strategy, so Byun proceeded. Nothing wrong with that.
Exactly. In fact, expecting him to not take advantage of the situation is very un-progamer like. If you catch my drift. He did what literally every single pro gamer would have done in his position.
On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote: Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
The proper map was used. It's been used for weeks. Byun was the only one who noticed it and used it to his advantage
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
I guess you're just making your argument for the sake of Zerg Intelligence then?
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
Talk about terrible analogies, Byun did nothing wrong.
This reminds me of my first game in TL Open Map Contest on Ohana. I did a 3 Pylon block and put up a cannon and ended up defeating Fitzyhere. Did I do anything wrong?
Of course not, the map was poorly designed and I exploited it to my advantage. Did every Terran who won a game on Lost Temple by dropping Tanks on the high ground over the natural do anything wrong? No, they exploited the map to their advantage.
How bout maps that are good for Muta's, if Zerg uses them are they doing anything wrong? Where is the line in the sand between wrong and right when it comes to maps? Seems to me that is it is completely subjective, and the only opinion that matters is that of the tournament officials who decide the map pool. Metro without a supply depot was in the map pool, and thus what Byun did was perfectly fine according the GSL. And since the game was played in the GSL, I don't see how there can be any arguement against what happened. The "mistake" belongs to the GSL, if indeed this was a mistake.
If you aren't using the map to your advantage you're simply not playing your best.
On July 13 2012 05:31 Orek wrote: Wait wait, I thought some of the earlier posts that blamed Byun were just trolling to raise awareness of this thread. But it seems certain % of community are seriously believing that Byun was doing something wrong.
It is completely opposite. For Byun NOT to try the strategy that he thoguht gives him the highest chance to win would have been game throwing act. I am glad Byun did his best to win a match as usual and was not punished for game throwing act.
If a proper map were used, it wouldn't be possible. He exploited the fact that a judge messed up. That's not ethical. You are arguing against a player having a conscious. This is very different from when big imbalanced were present like high scv health and 2 rax all-ins. This is something that was fixed but managed to not be fixed in this one situation. At this point, these strategies were considered so unfair to the point where they were made impossible. That's the point. This was considered so unfair that it was removed completely.
Maybe I have different philosophy from some people, but as a competitor, you are supposed to exploit the fact that a judge messed up if it helps you win a match. Competitors are expected to do anything that is not clearly banned by rules. GOM hosted a game without depot, your opponent didn't pause the game, then why not try a strategy you think would work very well? At that point, rule clearly did not ban/prevent the strategy, so Byun proceeded. Nothing wrong with that.
Exactly. In fact, expecting him to not take advantage of the situation is very un-progamer like. If you catch my drift. He did what literally every single pro gamer would have done in his position.
This. You use what's given to you. It's up to the organizers to fix their stuff, not the competitor. Nestea handled it horribly anyways so no big deal.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote: Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
But if you score a goal in that situation it should be frowned upon!
On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote: Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote: Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
But if you score a goal in that situation it should be frowned upon!
It's not the fault of the player though, it's the fault of the ref
On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote: Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
Actually that is a terrible analogy too. The correct analogy is:
"You're the striker for a football team. The rule makers accidentally remove the offside rule prior to the game. You're offside and your teammate passes to you. Do you stop? Of course not, you score!"
On July 13 2012 06:03 Hassybaby wrote: Hell, here's an actual analogy hat fits the scene.
You're the striker for a football team. You're offside and your team-mate passes to you. Flag for offside does not go up. Do you stop and tell the ref you were offside?
NO YOU GO SCORE A GOAL
But if you score a goal in that situation it should be frowned upon!
It's not the fault of the player though, it's the fault of the ref
Was just joking. Of course it's on the ref. Only second rate pro players would bitch about Byun doing something like this, and many of them would do the exact same thing if they got the chance. Such holier than thou attitude, also it's from zergs so i guess they are kinda butthurt about the whole thing.
Before someone gets 2 bunker rushed this weekend at NASL on Ohana or CK, not our call. NASL using ladder versions it looks like, they did not consult with us about maps at all.
On July 13 2012 06:10 Diamond wrote: Before someone gets 2 bunker rushed this weekend at NASL on Ohana or CK, not our call. NASL using ladder versions it looks like, they did not consult with us about maps at all.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
What is this scrutiny that you talk about? Should there be a esports investigation into how much Byun knew? Held accountable how? It's on the people organizing the event to keep maps and shit up to date and to the standards they want. if they slip up and don't fix their shit and a programer notices it, the blame is on the organizers.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
By the way, defending Byun just because you are Terran or blaming Byun just because you are Zerg is nonsense. I am Zerg, and I hate when 2 bunker contain happens to me on ladder. However, on this incident, I am 100% for Byun. Race you play shouldn't blind you.
I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
Read the OP please. This changed 2 weeks ago, not the whole GSL/GSTL season. and that comparison makes no sense since that is supposed to be possible, this however is not.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
Read the OP please. This changed 2 weeks ago, not the whole GSL/GSTL season.
My point still stands. This was not the first game played on this map and therefor Byun deserves no blame.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
Well yeah, i can see where you're coming from. I stand corrected.
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now.
As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
On July 13 2012 06:31 ZasZ. wrote: While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
I also agree that Byun shouldnt be blamed for this mistake after all it is not his mistake that GOM didn't notice such a bug. but I lost all my respect to byun because he abused something that was well known for a long time and tournaments were adding deposts to deny it. It is not like he discovered a new way to abuse the map. The only good thing is see from this is that maybe one day blizzard will realize that they made a mistake and they should add a neutral supply depost in ladder maps.
On July 13 2012 06:47 Orek wrote: This discussion just reminded me of 2010 World Cup Ghana vs Urguay.
Great example of how compatitors are there solely to compete. Forget ethic, forget fairness, they are there to WIN.
Right, except what he did was fair, in the sense that he was punished fully for it and the game went on, so it has nothing to with fairness and ethics.
It is the same thing that happens at the end of many basketball games. People commit fouls in an attempt to gain an advantage, because the punishment for a foul isn't strong enough and thus people commit them on purpose. They need to fix the rules in soccer and basketball to prevent this. Stopping a shot with a foul should never lead to a situation where the person being fouled now has to makes shots to achieve only what he would have if he hadn't been fouled. That makes no sense, the foul is hardly a punishment, and is more of a good defensive play. And because of that, people foul each other in basketball and that happened in the Ghana and Urguay game. Fouling someone shooting in basketball should lead to 1 point and the ball for the team being fouled. An intentional handball inside the goal box should be an automatic goal.
In this case, Byun didn't even commit a foul, the GSL made a mistake and Byun had no idea it was simply a mistake, and he exploited it.
On July 13 2012 06:46 whatevername wrote: As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
Can you plz tell me how? even if he had killed that scv he wouldnt still be able to take down the other bunker because there is not enough surface area and since byun kept railing marines to his nattural then building spines wouldnt have worked.this is all blizzard stupid map design not nestea mistake. Also drone drill is not a solution in my opinion because it sets you behind unfairly. And it doesnt work in most maps. People dont know how to deal with pylon wall. People are inventing ways to be able to have a chance to win against a cheese(it is not a new metagame which people need time to discover how to counter it by for example by taking earlier upgrades).
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now.
As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
This is so true and furthur supports my theory they should be completely removed from competitive play. Nestea is so used to the neutral depot that he doesn't even understand how to deflect a dbl bunker block without it. Yeah thats some serious 'high-level' play lol. Nestea had everything else in his favor including excelent scouting information.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
Yes, and the reason was bandwagoning, if it was that easy to execute and so impossible to defend, then why don't we see it rampant on the ladder anymore?I think the last time I saw someone using it was, hmm.. surprise surprise, Byun in the GSL!! Considering how many terran streams I watch there's got to be something weird about that, right?Now, I bet you and the rest here wouldn't want Hero and so many other protoss players to replay the games that they used the abusive sentry drop, would you? Because, you see, as of today that strat is actually much harder to defend then the one Byun used, even when scouted! 5 range queen and/or l2drone drill and/or scouting and pulling the correct amount of drones = problem solved, Nestea did none of those, impressive!Deserves a pat in the back for being robbed by the mean Byun that didn't play 10minNR, poor guy.
To add another shitty analogy to the list, holding byun morally accountable for this is like saying an american football team should decline a penalty that was wrongly called just to be honorable.
It was a mistake of the people reffing the game, and when a ref gives you an advantage, you run with it. you dont report it to the ref in the name of "honor"
On July 12 2012 22:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: Fuck that sucks, I feel like it cost nestea the whole series. Thanks for updating us Wax.
NesTea got RAPED! Game1 didn't matter at all, ByuN was just the much better player.
Admittedly, NesTea was seriously outplayed in games 2 or 3. For all we know, though, he would have won games 4 and 5, and by losing game 1 he lost the series. In all likelihood he would have lost the series anyways, but we can't say for certain-- and that's the saddest fact of them all.
Frankly, I'm still lost where we decided as a community that bunker blocking was any worse than any other blind cheese. I don't remember agreeing to this, and I don't remember agreeing to be all morally offended when it happened.
On July 12 2012 22:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: Fuck that sucks, I feel like it cost nestea the whole series. Thanks for updating us Wax.
NesTea got RAPED! Game1 didn't matter at all, ByuN was just the much better player.
Admittedly, NesTea was seriously outplayed in games 2 or 3. For all we know, though, he would have won games 4 and 5, and by losing game 1 he lost the series. In all likelihood he would have lost the series anyways, but we can't say for certain-- and that's the saddest fact of them all.
We can say for certain, it's a legitimate strategy(at least not any less legitimate than sentry drops in the main) that has long since been figured out and should've been easily thwarted given that Nestea scouted it, let alone the fact that this is the map version that has been used for the recent GSL/GSTL games.
On July 13 2012 07:15 Angel_ wrote: Frankly, I'm still lost where we decided as a community that bunker blocking was any worse than any other blind cheese. I don't remember agreeing to this, and I don't remember agreeing to be all morally offended when it happened.
I don't think whether or not bunker cheese is morally just or not is what we're arguing about. I think the thing is that the bunker cheese was stronger than usual, due to an oversight by GOM, and whose "fault" it was, whether the call on the ground was right, etc.
I personally believe it's GOM's fault, and Byun's decision, although a bit underhanded, is what he is paid to do: win games within the rules of the tournament. I think NesTea could have held it off, but I also think he was probably gonna lose the series anyways, though we can't know for sure. I hope GOM uses tighter quality control on their maps in the future, having learned from this (thankfully) minor incident.
Just curious. How does bunker contain work in broodwar?
If it doesn't work quite like SC2, is it because 2 bunkers can't block a ramp? or because non hatch first build is common? I forgot how it is like. There is no queen for defense, and barracks doesn't require depot, so it sounds even better in broodwar on paper.
Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote: Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
burt eberybody sai imba so imba that why we ban fro tronament byun scumbag.
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I have no idea why bunker rushing is imbalanced. It's part of the game and people should deal with it honestly... like it's pretty damn hard for terran to beat zerg nowadays, just get rid of the neutral depots -_-
On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote: Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
Queen doesn't get out in time. The bunker block will be finished by the time queens are out. It's also a waste of mining time and stupid that zerg would have to do this EVERY single zvt and zvp just so they don't auto lose. There is a reason why it was changed, it was completely stupid and provided dumb games.
On July 12 2012 22:17 Waxangel wrote: According to the map maker "There's a bug that causes neutral supply depots to disappear sometimes when uploading to battle.net."
Don't know about that... Sounds like he's trying to save his ass for making a mistake. You'd think all the custom map makers would be complaining about that for happening all the time.
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I would blame the person who dropped the knife if it were a virtual fight where you needed to do anything to win, which starcraft kind of is. Context is important, bro.
On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote: Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
Queen doesn't get out in time. The bunker block will be finished by the time queens are out. It's also a waste of mining time and stupid that zerg would have to do this EVERY single zvt and zvp just so they don't auto lose. There is a reason why it was changed, it was completely stupid and provided dumb games.
Oh, that seems dreadful, terrans on the ladder must be either all very dumb or just very nice considering they are not using this at all in response to the ZvT trend, 11/11 is a gamble, it shouldn't be easy to hold, it's not easy to execute given the proper response and terran can die while doing it because of a single drone scout, you sound a lot like Idra, throwing general statements around without anything to back them up.
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
I think it might be a worthy mental exercise to abandon the comparisons entirely and just talk about the map, mapmaker, players, and gom. It is a somewhat unique situation, after all.
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now.
As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
This is so true and furthur supports my theory they should be completely removed from competitive play. Nestea is so used to the neutral depot that he doesn't even understand how to deflect a dbl bunker block without it. Yeah thats some serious 'high-level' play lol. Nestea had everything else in his favor including excelent scouting information.
Don't be dense. A player of NesTea's caliber most definitely knows how to deflect a double bunker block on the ladder. What likely happened was he didn't even notice the depot wasn't there because he expected it to be, and it should have been. That doesn't mean it's any less a mistake to not realize it's missing or to let the Bunkers go up, but don't pretend he doesn't know how to defend it.
What should have happened was he paused the game immediately after noticing the depot was missing OR after the bunkers went up and it was obvious there was no depot to make sure they were on the correct version of the map. A re-game after those points would be completely unfair to Byun, but making sure they are playing on the correct map is fine.
The fault lies with GOM for having them play a game on the wrong map...completely unprofessional.
On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote: Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
4-player map, Terran scouts Zerg first, Zerg patrols a drone at ramp, Terran brings 3 additional SCV to kill the patrolling drone, it takes about 10 in-game seconds for other drones to go reinforce, patrolling drone dies or gets out of the way, 2 bunkers go up, gg is not what GOM wants in 15% of all TvZ for entertainment reason.
Overall balance-wise, I see no problem removing neutral depots as there is non on ladder. But GOM cares more about entertainment value than game balance itself. I am not saying build above is what would happen or viable. GOM decided that having neutral depot at ramp would improve entertainment value they can deliver. Maybe GOM can try and remove neutral depots again to see if entertainment value decrease due to certain % of games with entire focus on 2bunkers/3pylons.
On July 12 2012 23:25 MaNaVoId wrote: Lost all respect for byun for not reporting the bug to GOM even though he noticed it beforehand
I guess he values money more than your respect.
Which kind of says something about his character...
Yeah, he values actual tournament results over the opinion of random people on the internet who get upset over literally anything. What a madman.
No, he seems to value results above sportsmanship, fairness and respect.
Must be nice to live in whatever fantasy world you're currently residing in, but in the real world, winning is all that matters in a competitive environment. Whatever it takes. We were robbed of a good viewing experience because of a mistake by GOM, but you can't blame Byun for taking the win when he saw it. The people who value "sportsmanship, fairness, and respect" over results are the people who lose. I am as big a fan of BoxeR and WhiteRa as the next person, but there is no doubting that their choice to provide entertaining games no matter what has cost them a few wins historically (just as an example).
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
Except using a knife you find on the street and go stab someone is clearly prohibited by law in many countries, while using a map feature GOM didn't notice was by no means prohibited as far as I know.
On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote: Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it...
First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss.
Typical Terran idiocy.
The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.
I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers)
Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter.
As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag?
It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny.
As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible.
Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion.
Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd.
Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd.
While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason.
Yes, and the reason was bandwagoning, if it was that easy to execute and so impossible to defend, then why don't we see it rampant on the ladder anymore?I think the last time I saw someone using it was, hmm.. surprise surprise, Byun in the GSL!! Considering how many terran streams I watch there's got to be something weird about that, right?Now, I bet you and the rest here wouldn't want Hero and so many other protoss players to replay the games that they used the abusive sentry drop, would you? Because, you see, as of today that strat is actually much harder to defend then the one Byun used, even when scouted! 5 range queen and/or l2drone drill and/or scouting and pulling the correct amount of drones = problem solved, Nestea did none of those, impressive!Deserves a pat in the back for being robbed by the mean Byun that didn't play 10minNR, poor guy.
It happens all the time on ladder from players who don't play in tournaments. Players who play in tournaments never use this, because it's a waste of practice time. You still see it in Korean GM and everywhere below quite often.
On July 12 2012 23:25 MaNaVoId wrote: Lost all respect for byun for not reporting the bug to GOM even though he noticed it beforehand
I guess he values money more than your respect.
Which kind of says something about his character...
Thats bullshit to say that. Every pro WILL DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN. If theres a map imbalance, you can bet your ass theyll use it. Blue flame was OP, did you see pros saying "i wont use that, its imba" Same with infester pre-nerf.
Your talking about, if he can get a competitive edge, on a map that was PLAYED IN GSTL and he noticed it, and Nestea didnt (not to mention, nesteas lack of map awareness at the start of the game. If he thwarted the cheese, he would have been way ahead) he should be punished for being aware?
Im sorry, but 2000$ for that win alone (the series); as well as potentially another 40k? Your saying youd turn that down?
Not only has he done nothing for monetary gain in 6 months, no major results, but its his current CAREER. If he doesnt post results, he could be forced to retire.
If nestea thought it was unfair, he could have paused the game and asked for a re-do. He didnt. He had lackluster drone micro, didnt scout it, didnt prevent it, and played poorly all 3 games compared to byun. One loss wouldnt throw nestea off. hes came back from worse. He has mental fortitude.
Dont make a mistake on GSLs part a huge hit on Byun as a person. Thats just retarded.
Think of all the times in sports where a ref has made a bad call, do you see the player going "NO NO NO, i did hold him/I did push him/I didnt catch the ball" No, you dont.
The attitude towards Byun, and legitimate strategies such as cheese within the game and its rules from this community is disappointing. It actually makes me a bit angry.
Pretty pathetic Zerg has to have a neutral building so they don't have to waste all the effort of patroling a drone at the ramp. They already made it so that it take 3 pylons to wall it, then put neutral buildings there all because Zerg are incapable of anything except building queens and drones.
On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote: I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary.
This is indeed the best part of what happened.
Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons.
How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now.
As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy.
This is so true and furthur supports my theory they should be completely removed from competitive play. Nestea is so used to the neutral depot that he doesn't even understand how to deflect a dbl bunker block without it. Yeah thats some serious 'high-level' play lol. Nestea had everything else in his favor including excelent scouting information.
Don't be dense. A player of NesTea's caliber most definitely knows how to deflect a double bunker block on the ladder. What likely happened was he didn't even notice the depot wasn't there because he expected it to be, and it should have been. That doesn't mean it's any less a mistake to not realize it's missing or to let the Bunkers go up, but don't pretend he doesn't know how to defend it.
What should have happened was he paused the game immediately after noticing the depot was missing OR after the bunkers went up and it was obvious there was no depot to make sure they were on the correct version of the map. A re-game after those points would be completely unfair to Byun, but making sure they are playing on the correct map is fine.
The fault lies with GOM for having them play a game on the wrong map...completely unprofessional.
You didnt watch the game. He scouted the 2 rax, his drone saw the marines head to his base, he had drones at the bottom of his ramp ready for it, his drones attacked the building scvs-- he then randomly stopped at 5hp and pulled them back to make spine crawlers. He then flailed on a number of occassions losing queens and lings unnecessarily. Regardless, the game was lost when he decided not to right click an scv until its dead. If he cant do that, how the fuck can you conclude he can deflect it on ladder? It was an egregious mistake by Nestea, an outlier, not because of some crippling shock that caused him to react entirely properly until the last second, but because he simply lost his concentration. He simply played sloppily and lost to an entirely fair strategy.
The controversy should be that on every map terrans bunker rushes are castrated for absolutely no good reason.
On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote: Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
4-player map, Terran scouts Zerg first, Zerg patrols a drone at ramp, Terran brings 3 additional SCV to kill the patrolling drone, it takes about 10 in-game seconds for other drones to go reinforce, patrolling drone dies or gets out of the way, 2 bunkers go up, gg is not what GOM wants in 15% of all TvZ for entertainment reason.
Overall balance-wise, I see no problem removing neutral depots as there is non on ladder. But GOM cares more about entertainment value than game balance itself. I am not saying build above is what would happen or viable. GOM decided that having neutral depot at ramp would improve entertainment value they can deliver. Maybe GOM can try and remove neutral depots again to see if entertainment value decrease due to certain % of games with entire focus on 2bunkers/3pylons.
You can see a bolt of scv's rushing your base. If you are genuinely shocked when 4-5 scv's hit your natural you deserve to lose the game because your simply bad as hell.
I totally agree with whatevername. I feel that he played it way to sloppy. Even though the supply depot wasn't there it could of been easily stopped. He made several mistakes..Didn't kill the scv, let the queen die, and attacked with such a low amount of zerglings.
Not only that he didn't even win one game. So really it didn't even matter.
Im surprised that there isn't a neutral depo on every map including ladder maps. It is an unfair advantage to the terran like holy shit I can block the ramp and if the Zerg doesn't hold it off im in almost an unlosable position for 200 minerals and can even salvage afterwards if they actually do hold it off.
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
I don't think either should be blamed completely. The map maker should have done a better job of getting the map right, GomTV should have made sure their map was correct, and Byun should have recognized that he was abusing a glitch/mistake and should not have done it. Forget the silly analogy, it's just that all three parties are somewhat at blame. It happened, let's make sure it does not happen again.
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
The lack of neutral depot was seen in recent GSTL games, it is entirely possible that Byun had thought it was an intentional change.
Your "kicking in the balls" analogy is stupid. Assaulting a competitor is explicitly breaking rules of conduct. Byun broke no written (or unwritten) rules of conduct.
It's a shame that for somebody so intellectually stunted by bias, you have so many rabid fans willing to parrot everything you say.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Obviously the correct map should have been used. That said, amazing performance by Byun to notice something he can exploit and using it this full advantage. Pure gamer right there. It reminds me of Stephano typing out "gl hf" in a game vs polt (during ASOS perhaps?) right when he knew his scouting drone would get to opponents ramp
On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote: I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points.
I think you don't get the gist that we get your gist and reject your conclusion. If you don't pause and ask you are accepting the situation. Players pause all the time for lag, computer issues, etc and I have seen people question a map choice and gotten a regame.
You zergs should be glad anyway. ByuN advancing means you get to pretend the Queen buff didn't break the matchup
Nestea always has a good idea in his head that how the game will flow. Most of his plans revolve around it and if if this part fails, it will have a huge impact on Nestea's game plan. It is obvious that Nestea did not take the lack of depot into account so he misjudged when and how many lings should be produced.
Afterall, it is just that Byun realize the lack of depot earlier than most players and take full advantage of it. He beat Nestea with it because his observation skill > Nestea's. Nestea lost that game because he failed to recognize a change on the map at all. Even if that change is unintentional, a professional should still try their best to win the game when the tournament organizer is not doing its job well. In this case, it would be take the bunker rush into account.
In short Byun won that game cuz Byun's observation skill > Nestea's. He deserve that win because he recognize a game changing factor in the new map while the others do not. Observation skill help determines how good a player builds are, and that's what Byun relied on to win that map from Nestea.
Kind of stupid that Byun saw that and planned to abuse it. Obviously it was unintentional, why would anyone go backwards and remove the neutral depots so people can start walling ramps again?
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly.
if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can?
what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote: I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points.
I think you don't get the gist that we get your gist and reject your conclusion. If you don't pause and ask you are accepting the situation. Players pause all the time for lag, computer issues, etc and I have seen people question a map choice and gotten a regame.
You zergs should be glad anyway. ByuN advancing means you get to pretend the Queen buff didn't break the matchup
What exactly do you think my conclusion is that you're rejecting? It'll be easier to discuss this if no assumptions are made, so I'd like to know how you interpreted my post. My intended conclusion was simply that the points I listed are faulty for reasons already stated, and that Byun's win was by definition unfair.
I agree that Nestea reacted incorrectly to the situation and that he should have said something. Nestea's reaction, however, doesn't change the fact that Byun's win was by definition unfair. An unfair situation doesn't become fair just because people accept it.
I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm a zerg player or if your last couple sentences are separate from your first paragraph, but for the record, I'm a Toss player
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
On July 13 2012 09:57 Monochromatic wrote: It isn't a bug. Byun won, Nestea lost. That is that.
Was Byun Evil? Heck no. He played on the map he practiced on using info that was available to Nestea.
this his preparation for the games on certain maps was deeper so anyone could noticed that if only they were paying attention
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
could...would.. NO MAN he already lost. because he played worse. Deal with it. In some parallel universe maybe things will go other way. Not in this one.
On July 13 2012 10:34 Pokebunny wrote: I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps.
I personally don't see it as Byun's fault, but I can adopt the mindset of people who are accusing Byun of bad sportsmanship and make a pretty compelling argument: Any pro player should be aware that there are neutral depots to prevent plays like that. Yet, Byun notices the neutral depots aren't there, and doesn't raise any questions. A good sportsman should worry that a mistake was made that could impact the fairness of the game, and bring it up, but the only thing Byun thought of was to take advantage of it. Did it never strike Byun as odd that suddenly the neutral depots were gone, especially since he was aware that they used to be there? Why not mention it at all to the tournament organizers? One has to question whether or not Byun remained silent on the issue because it was convenient for him, and if he did, it certainly isn't his fault that the neutral depots weren't there, but it does reflect rather badly on his sportsmanship. I don't think anyone would dispute that someone knowingly taking advantage of an unintended flaw/mistake in a tournament setting and not saying anything about it is the definition of bad sportsmanship. The thing saving Byun in my mind is that I'm assuming that he didn't know it was actually a mistake, which is certainly a huge possibility.
Some people might say that this is the problem with allowing non-Blizzard maps into tournament pools, while that is correct, I think that it's a much larger indication of a problem with Blizzard's reluctance to either sponsor or purchase well-made maps from independent mapmakers.
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly.
if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can?
what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
they're not silly, they're god awful parallels you are comparing someone dying to a fucking bunker rush in a video game LOL
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly.
if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can?
what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
they're not silly, they're god awful parallels you are comparing someone dying to a fucking bunker rush in a video game LOL
so your argument is that because it happened in a video game it doesnt matter? i think you are on the wrong site LOL
lucky they are only playing for pixel money, oh wait
Were going in circles that keep revolving back to sportsmanship and it being Byun's fault. I last said this on page 13, now its 23. We've now reached page 8 of the thread again, circles and circles. this point has been discussed to death
THere is no controversy at all, there is no issue. There was no unfairness. The series is over.
There have been like 7 games of GSL/GSTL. Nobody said anything, dont blame Byun for saying anything before the series started. He is the only person who seemed to do everything 100 percent as he should in this situation. Both GOM and Nestea are the ones at fault.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly.
if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can?
what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
they're not silly, they're god awful parallels you are comparing someone dying to a fucking bunker rush in a video game LOL
so your argument is that because it happened in a video game it doesnt matter? i think you are on the wrong site LOL
no that's not what i'm saying at all, and that is the flaw with your argument. you say something completely outrageous, but then i disagree with what you say and all of a sudden it doesnt matter to me?
if you'd made a sports analogy based on rules and players exploiting certain situations then I could agree with you, but here you are making a ridiculous comparison
and also, i didn't make an argument, i just said yours was bad, so don't put words in my mouth. thanks
It's hard for me to believe that uploading the map to bnet could cause neutral supply depots to disappear. I don't know how the map editor works but I think it's more likely that the map maker made a mistake when removing all items of a certain type or something.
Good on Byun for finding the change though and beating Nestea!
On July 13 2012 10:34 Pokebunny wrote: I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps.
I personally don't see it as Byun's fault, but I can adopt the mindset of people who are accusing Byun of bad sportsmanship and make a pretty compelling argument: Any pro player should be aware that there are neutral depots to prevent plays like that. Yet, Byun notices the neutral depots aren't there, and doesn't raise any questions. A good sportsman should worry that a mistake was made that could impact the fairness of the game, and bring it up, but the only thing Byun thought of was to take advantage of it. Did it never strike Byun as odd that suddenly the neutral depots were gone, especially since he was aware that they used to be there? Why not mention it at all to the tournament organizers? One has to question whether or not Byun remained silent on the issue because it was convenient for him, and if he did, it certainly isn't his fault that the neutral depots weren't there, but it does reflect rather badly on his sportsmanship. I don't think anyone would dispute that someone knowingly taking advantage of an unintended flaw/mistake in a tournament setting and not saying anything about it is the definition of bad sportsmanship. The thing saving Byun in my mind is that I'm assuming that he didn't know it was actually a mistake, which is certainly a huge possibility.
maybe nestea should have vetoed metropolis and atlantis spaceship rather than antiga shipyard then, since those maps are 30% TvZ. or maybe it was just convenient and nestea thought only to take advantage of the imbalanced map pool.
maybe nestea should have asked to play pre-patch too.
^ i know my little lines are stupid, but i feel like having a bit of fun
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
GOM staff changed the map though, I don't see a rule saying GSL_Metropolis will have neutral depots.
The fact that Byun noticed this small but incredibly important bug but NesTea didn't should show you the skill differential between the two when preparing for this series, in addition to the other two games that Byun simply outplayed NesTea.
In the future, I would hope people that are planning on making money running/participating in tournaments will take the 5 seconds to check the map pool, or god forbid, make maps for each season to prevent stuff like this from happening. (I don't mean new maps entirely, but new versions such as GSL May Terminus or w/e)
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
On July 13 2012 10:34 Pokebunny wrote: I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps.
I personally don't see it as Byun's fault, but I can adopt the mindset of people who are accusing Byun of bad sportsmanship and make a pretty compelling argument: Any pro player should be aware that there are neutral depots to prevent plays like that. Yet, Byun notices the neutral depots aren't there, and doesn't raise any questions. A good sportsman should worry that a mistake was made that could impact the fairness of the game, and bring it up, but the only thing Byun thought of was to take advantage of it. Did it never strike Byun as odd that suddenly the neutral depots were gone, especially since he was aware that they used to be there? Why not mention it at all to the tournament organizers? One has to question whether or not Byun remained silent on the issue because it was convenient for him, and if he did, it certainly isn't his fault that the neutral depots weren't there, but it does reflect rather badly on his sportsmanship. I don't think anyone would dispute that someone knowingly taking advantage of an unintended flaw/mistake in a tournament setting and not saying anything about it is the definition of bad sportsmanship. The thing saving Byun in my mind is that I'm assuming that he didn't know it was actually a mistake, which is certainly a huge possibility.
maybe nestea should have vetoed metropolis and atlantis spaceship rather than antiga shipyard then, since those maps are 30% TvZ. or maybe it was just convenient and nestea thought only to take advantage of the imbalanced map pool.
maybe nestea should have asked to play pre-patch too.
^ i know my little lines are stupid, but i feel like having a bit of fun
I'd like to throw out there that justifying the unfairness of what transpired by saying that the game is imbalanced against Terran anyway so it's okay is exceedingly foolish.
Good thing you're joking though But I bet there are some people who are using that exact line of reasoning without joking >_<
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
If it's not unfair, why wouldn't you report it? Conversely, if its fair, then surely reporting it could do no harm?
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
I agree that it's okay to question the validity of the rules, but that's a completely different discussion to what the rules currently are. The strategy is objectively unfair in context of the GSL's regulations. A competitor in a tournament should be tied to the rules of a tournament. It is not the competitor's place to knowingly violate rules he/she thinks is unfair. That's a completely ridiculous notion.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
Well apparently that GSL_Metropolis was changed, and that change was applied to the map pool. Therefore, rule 4 was not violated. The depot-less Metropolis replaced the one with the depot.
It's also funny how it seems like no one else noticed. I bet many others (including myself) noticed that it was missing, and didn't report it. In that sense, aren't they all to be blamed for? I don't blame them. 11/11 bunker rush is not a completely op strat. ByuN was pretty sloppy doing it, but NesTea was even worse. Nothing ethically wrong with it, because he just used the map to his advantage, which is what every good player should be able to do. No rules state there has to be a neutral depot. No rules say bunker rush blocking the ramp is illegal. It's just what the map makers did so that they can prevent cheese. But again, I really don't see why they need the depots...as I said before it's totally not impossible to stop it or break it. And the terran would be ages behind if he fails.
Cheese vs Hatch first? I don't think any other race has an easy time holding against really fast cheese when they expo first...
This is unfortunate and cost him the game, but Byun still played well in the other two games of the series, so flipping out over it at this point wont accomplish much. Very unfortunate, but you can't take credit away from Byun in that series.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
I don't see why this argument is still going. The outcome will not be changed no matter how many people are opposed to the results. Byun has made it to the semis and that won't change. The map will undoubtedly be "fixed" in the future. It's unfortunate for our creator of the universe, Nestea but life moves on. Congrats to Byun for moving on and showing us fantastic TvZ's the second and third set.
So the mapmaker made a mistake with the map, gom didn't notice it and no one said it was a mistake and Byun played the map is. This is not Byun's fault. He played the hand he was dealt. Did someone tell him this was not right? Haven't read that anywhere so the guy did no wrong. Gom and the mapmaker need to pay attention to stuff like this.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
Well apparently that GSL_Metropolis was changed, and that change was applied to the map pool. Therefore, rule 4 was not violated. The depot-less Metropolis replaced the one with the depot.
It's also funny how it seems like no one else noticed. I bet many others (including myself) noticed that it was missing, and didn't report it. In that sense, aren't they all to be blamed for? I don't blame them. 11/11 bunker rush is not a completely op strat. ByuN was pretty sloppy doing it, but NesTea was even worse. Nothing ethically wrong with it, because he just used the map to his advantage, which is what every good player should be able to do. No rules state there has to be a neutral depot. No rules say bunker rush blocking the ramp is illegal. It's just what the map makers did so that they can prevent cheese. But again, I really don't see why they need the depots...as I said before it's totally not impossible to stop it or break it. And the terran would be ages behind if he fails.
Cheese vs Hatch first? I don't think any other race has an easy time holding against really fast cheese when they expo first...
Your argument hinges on the map pool being defined by the current state of the maps uploaded, which I don't think is true. My argument is that the map pool is pre-determined at the start of the tournament (in other words, it was pre-determined that GSL_Metropolis with depots would be used), and the wrong map not in the map pool was unintentionally uploaded for use.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
Well apparently that GSL_Metropolis was changed, and that change was applied to the map pool. Therefore, rule 4 was not violated. The depot-less Metropolis replaced the one with the depot.
It's also funny how it seems like no one else noticed. I bet many others (including myself) noticed that it was missing, and didn't report it. In that sense, aren't they all to be blamed for? I don't blame them. 11/11 bunker rush is not a completely op strat. ByuN was pretty sloppy doing it, but NesTea was even worse. Nothing ethically wrong with it, because he just used the map to his advantage, which is what every good player should be able to do. No rules state there has to be a neutral depot. No rules say bunker rush blocking the ramp is illegal. It's just what the map makers did so that they can prevent cheese. But again, I really don't see why they need the depots...as I said before it's totally not impossible to stop it or break it. And the terran would be ages behind if he fails.
Cheese vs Hatch first? I don't think any other race has an easy time holding against really fast cheese when they expo first...
Your argument hinges on the map pool being defined by the current state of the maps uploaded, which I don't think is true. My argument is that the map pool is pre-determined at the start of the tournament (in other words, it was pre-determined that GSL_Metropolis with depots would be used), and the wrong map not in the map pool was unintentionally uploaded for use.
I'm pretty sure GOM has updated maps halfway through tournaments before, just that we've never really noticed.
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
I agree that it's okay to question the validity of the rules, but that's a completely different discussion to what the rules currently are. The strategy is objectively unfair in context of the GSL's regulations. A competitor in a tournament should be tied to the rules of a tournament. It is not the competitor's place to knowingly violate rules he/she thinks is unfair. That's a completely ridiculous notion.
Considering how lightly Byun answered the question regarding the particular game, I'm confident that he both agrees that the depots are unreasonable, and believed that everyone else was aware of the fact, though I'd be totally fine with it if he knew it was mistake anyway.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
On July 13 2012 11:11 jmbthirteen wrote: So the mapmaker made a mistake with the map, gom didn't notice it and no one said it was a mistake and Byun played the map is. This is not Byun's fault. He played the hand he was dealt. Did someone tell him this was not right? Haven't read that anywhere so the guy did no wrong. Gom and the mapmaker need to pay attention to stuff like this.
You could say he was underhanded by not notifying anyone and instead incorporating his observation into his game but then that assumes Byun knew it was a mistake.
Overall, Byun studied and took advantage of the maps. He did everything a good starcraft player should. He may have beaten my favorite player but even I can't deny how much Byun earned his place in the semifinals. He played in great form and I'll be cheering for him.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
I don't think any of us will ever find out, but the definition of the map pool isn't clearly listed. The map pool might be the maps they were originally like, or perhaps it may just be the names of the map. In the case of the former, you sir are right. But I have a feeling that it's the latter, as they don't specifically mention that it's the version of the map as of a certain date. It's the not like GSL Daybreak vs Daybreak LE.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
On July 13 2012 10:27 IcedBacon wrote: Kind of stupid that Byun saw that and planned to abuse it. Obviously it was unintentional, why would anyone go backwards and remove the neutral depots so people can start walling ramps again?
1: It is arguable that with the queen range buff, the neutral supply is no longer required. 2: Ladder version of the map do NOT have neutral supply depot, and T don't have a 100% win rate against Z. In fact, they don't even have 50% win rate. 3: This is especially true on Metropolis, where T have a 33% win rate against Z, so it is conceivable to balance it more in T's favor.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
Updates for performance issues are completely different from updates that may affect balance. So no, it is not clear that they just update the maps without informing the players. This was a mistake.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
So, if we look at another angle, if Byun noticed the map not having the depot, and practice a strategy for that map, but on the game day, GOM suddenly patch the map and add the depot in. Can Byun ask for the fairness at that time, since he has been practicing on the map so much?
Byun has been practicing and prepare maps better than Nestea. If this map is the 4th or 5th map, I can understand that Nestea didn't practice for this map. But, this is the first map of the series, and players should have been practicing this map the most. If Byun notices, Nestea and Terran practice partners and teammates should have noticed it too. It's hard to say it's anyone's fault but the organizer, but one thing for sure, Byun practices more than Nestea. If we want to blame Byun, we should blame his practice partners too.
Can't blame Byun for this, and he outplayed Nestea the other two games really badly that he won, so no real question as to whether he'd take the series.
Regardless, GOM screwed up and it sucks for Nestea.
On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote: [quote] no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this.
The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
do we even need the neutral depot anymore? zergs have improved to a state where they are now capable of patroling a drone on the ramp, and as a protoss it annoys me for sim citying my wall off on some maps.
On July 13 2012 11:46 Whitewing wrote: Can't blame Byun for this, and he outplayed Nestea the other two games really badly that he won, so no real question as to whether he'd take the series.
Regardless, GOM screwed up and it sucks for Nestea.
I understand he won convincingly but the Nestea fans don't want to see that. They want to make excuses on why he lost.
Now I understand the map didn't have the supply depot but they will say it threw the whole series off because of one game. Even though Seed was down 0-2 and came back an won 3-2.
On July 13 2012 11:52 L3g3nd_ wrote: do we even need the neutral depot anymore? zergs have improved to a state where they are now capable of patroling a drone on the ramp, and as a protoss it annoys me for sim citying my wall off on some maps.
Yep, moreover, nowaday because most maps have such big open natural, Terran wall off using Orbital and depot with bunker near ramp, and on some map positions, it's impossible to wall off like that.
But meh, unless Terran's barrack increase build time 10,20 sec more to completely kill 2rax strat off, you will not see the depot removed.
How come no-one else pointed the map feature out either. Aren't they as much to blame. I don't even see why there is any issue, Byun didn't break any rules. Play to win.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion.
In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true:
1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?) 2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map? 3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used? 4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected?
None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
Here is an excellent piece discussing the subject.
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this.
The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote: [quote] but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this.
The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
Appeal to common sense, despite the wealth of people disagreeing with you.
On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote: [quote] but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this.
The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
Of course it was unfair to Nestea, GomTV fucked up. But your reason was wrong. Rule 4 was not broken, GomTV and / or mapmaker made a mistake, that's it. You can argue that there should be a rule governing this situation, but as far as I know there isn't at the moment.
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this.
The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
Of course it was unfair to Nestea, GomTV fucked up. But your reason was wrong. Rule 4 was not broken, GomTV and / or mapmaker made a mistake, that's it.
As long as you admit that, I'm fine with whatever you think about the rules. I could argue further about the semantics of the rules, but I'm frankly tired of doing this, been posting way too much on this topic.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion.
In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true:
1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?) 2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map? 3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used? 4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected?
None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
I think you're failing to understand the definition of definition, so to speak. If A is B by definition, then there is no important sense in which A is not B. It is a contradiction to say that that both A is B by definition, and also that in "important senses" A is not B. This is logic.
Your examples do not contradict this. If you give a definition of religion, and you show that atheism fulfills that definition, you either need to reject that definition of religion and therefore claim that atheism is not a religion by definition, or you need to accept that atheism is a religion.
Your list of terms of what "has yet to be shown" is as a random assortment of things you might be (rather idiosyncratically) worried about. Did Nestea's power turn off on his computer? Did space aliens abduct his mouse? Did Byun have sex with Nestea's girlfriend? Did he have a balanced breakfast and 8 hours of sleep?
But they do not aid up to a definition of 'unfair'.
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended. You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion.
In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true:
1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?) 2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map? 3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used? 4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected?
None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
I think you're failing to understand the definition of definition, so to speak. If A is B by definition, then there is no important sense in which A is not B. It is a contradiction to say that that both A is B by definition, and also that in "important senses" A is not B. This is logic.
Your examples do not contradict this. If you give a definition of religion, and you show that atheism fulfills that definition, you either need to reject that definition of religion and therefore claim that atheism is not a religion by definition, or you need to accept that atheism is a religion.
Your list of terms of what "has yet to be shown" is as a random assortment of things you might be (rather idiosyncratically) worried about. Did Nestea's power turn off on his computer? Did space aliens abduct his mouse? Did Byun have sex with Nestea's girlfriend? Did he have a balanced breakfast and 8 hours of sleep?
But they do not aid up to a definition of 'unfair'.
Precisely. I'm rejecting your definition of unfair, because it's purposely contrived to fit this case.
On July 13 2012 12:18 bokchoi wrote: People are blaming ByuN? Nothing he did was illegal, he took advantage of a situation to win. Its not like he flopped or cheated to get an advantage.
Some people I guess feel that Byun had a responsibility to report the issue that frankly should have been noticed by a lot of people and isn't his responsibility.
I have no qualms with what happened. Byun won 3-0, complaint came too late, it is GOM's fault/mistake, they're fixing it, not like they'll replay the entire match, strategy isn't invincible, etc.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion.
In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true:
1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?) 2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map? 3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used? 4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected?
None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
I think you're failing to understand the definition of definition, so to speak. If A is B by definition, then there is no important sense in which A is not B. It is a contradiction to say that that both A is B by definition, and also that in "important senses" A is not B. This is logic.
Your examples do not contradict this. If you give a definition of religion, and you show that atheism fulfills that definition, you either need to reject that definition of religion and therefore claim that atheism is not a religion by definition, or you need to accept that atheism is a religion.
Your list of terms of what "has yet to be shown" is as a random assortment of things you might be (rather idiosyncratically) worried about. Did Nestea's power turn off on his computer? Did space aliens abduct his mouse? Did Byun have sex with Nestea's girlfriend? Did he have a balanced breakfast and 8 hours of sleep?
But they do not aid up to a definition of 'unfair'.
Precisely. I'm rejecting your definition of unfair, because it's purposely contrived to fit this case.
Yes... Precisely... You know that old Soviet Union radio show joke? Well...
What you say is quite right. Except, it wasn't me that provided the definition of unfair, it was someone else; and, rather than rejecting the definition of unfair, you accepted it; and rather than the definition being contrived to fit this case, it wasn't.
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended. You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
We know this AFTER the fact, because this thread state so in the OP. At the point this happened it was not obvious. What we know NOW does not matter since GomTV or anyone else cannot base their decision on knowledge that available 2hr later.
And we know that "Wrong map got into the map pool", which is not the same as "Wrong map never got into the map pool and was used anyway". The rule says the map in the map pool should be used, the fact that A WRONG MAP WAS IN THE POOL AND LATER FIXED DOES NOT MEAN IT WAS NOT IN THE POOL.
If I say I'm holding up a red shirt but held up a yellow shirt, it does NOT mean I held up a red shirt, nor does it mean I never held up a yellow shirt; it just says I held up the wrong shirt. Similarly, Gom used a wrong map, but a wrong map that was in the pool, which is all rule 4 requires.
There SHOULD be rule says that a pre-defined map with specific feature agreed upon should be the map of the play, but as far as anyone knows, there is no such rule.
sucks for nestea bc you hate to see stupid shit like this, but the fact remains that winners play to win the game and byun did just that. it is preventable, but obviously you dont practice that bc you get used to having the neutral depots to protect you from the cheese. gl to him in his next GSL matches!
On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote: [quote] So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion.
In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true:
1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?) 2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map? 3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used? 4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected?
None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
I think you're failing to understand the definition of definition, so to speak. If A is B by definition, then there is no important sense in which A is not B. It is a contradiction to say that that both A is B by definition, and also that in "important senses" A is not B. This is logic.
Your examples do not contradict this. If you give a definition of religion, and you show that atheism fulfills that definition, you either need to reject that definition of religion and therefore claim that atheism is not a religion by definition, or you need to accept that atheism is a religion.
Your list of terms of what "has yet to be shown" is as a random assortment of things you might be (rather idiosyncratically) worried about. Did Nestea's power turn off on his computer? Did space aliens abduct his mouse? Did Byun have sex with Nestea's girlfriend? Did he have a balanced breakfast and 8 hours of sleep?
But they do not aid up to a definition of 'unfair'.
Precisely. I'm rejecting your definition of unfair, because it's purposely contrived to fit this case.
Yes... Precisely... You know that old Soviet Union radio show joke? Well...
What you say is quite right. Except, it wasn't me that provided the definition of unfair, it was someone else; and, rather than rejecting the definition of unfair, you accepted it; and rather than the definition being contrived to fit this case, it wasn't.
I did reject the given definition of unfair, but, more than that, I reject any discussion which frames itself as being reliant on definitions, because common speech is a rather poor tool when we're trying to talk about something precisely. When we
I don't want to argue about the meaning of words anymore (since they're contextual and subjective) but regardless, nothing that happened today was particularly immoral or bad. Nestea not only scouted the strategy, but didn't complain. Semantical nonsense regarding Gom's rules is irrelevant because Gom's response is necessarily within their own ruling. So, if the argument is reliant on a reading of the rules (which most arguments here have been) then Gom's response to the incident, provided it doesn't break their own regulations, should also be accepted at face value.
Otherwise, we're back to arguing about whether what happened was "wrong," and it obviously wasn't for the reasons I listed previously. Your earlier implication that Byun should have reported his knowledge is reaching and silly.
Nestea had the chance to stop the rush, but pulled his units back before making sure the SCV building the bunker was dead. If not for this mistake he would've easily killed the other SCV and no bunkers would've been built.
Byun had no way of knowing that the removal of the neutral depots was by accident and not design. Why should he report anything?
Byun also dominated Nestea in every game. Nestea was never really in a position to win. Even if you throw out the Metropolis game, Byun would most likely have gone 3-0.
Gom and the mapmaker both made mistakes, but they had no impact on the outcome of the series. Byun did nothing wrong and Gom made the right call after the mistake was called to their attention.
I wonder what would have happened if the depot was there? Since, evidently Byun noticed it had been missing in past games and centered his strategy around it. He would have undoubtably noticed it was there when (he believed) it shouldn't be and surely would have paused the game and asked the question. What would the outcome have been?
The depots are suppose to be there, but Byun has proof that they arent there in recent GSL matches.. I wonder what gom would have done in this sitution.
I don't think anyone can blame Byun for this.. He studied the map, the games on the map and used it to his advantage. Just like any good player should. Should Nestea have noticed? Probably. Is it his fault? Partly.
Gom is at fault here but in no way do I believe the games were unfair. The same map has been previously used (disappearing depot version) so the information was out there. Gom didn't notice, Nestea didnt notice. Byun did. More power to him. If gom wants to fix it now then thats their decision but both players had access to the map that was going to be used prior to the games.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
when you are playing for that much money you do what you need to win imo
On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote: esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly.
if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can?
what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
He played within the rules and won, it's that simple. All of your analogies are completely irrelevant. A progamer in korea who is striving to make something of his career, can't be handicapped by trying to please the fans or have the best sportsmanship. Their job is to continue their career and post good results.
Edit: the korean e-sports scene is also very different, they face much more pressure than the west. We have players in the west who are not very good yet recieve salaries and sponsorships. In korea there are so many unknown players who would easily compete with the best from the west. However they are completely unknown because of the fierce competition. My point being the pressure there is MUCH greater, and it is completely understandable when people act outside your confines of "sportsmanship" as long as it is within the rules.
Byun's a tool.. Great player but a snake. He certainly won't be getting any favours from IM players anytime soon. I am surprised he would exploit this bug so shortly after coming back from his match-fixing scandal.
On July 13 2012 13:55 BrassMonkey27 wrote: Byun's a tool.. Great player but a snake. He certainly won't be getting any favours from IM players anytime soon. I am surprised he would exploit this bug so shortly after coming back from his match-fixing scandal.
Its not a bug, its an undocumented feature. Byun was paying attention and noticed it. Nestea didnt. Byun won.
On July 13 2012 13:55 BrassMonkey27 wrote: Byun's a tool.. Great player but a snake. He certainly won't be getting any favours from IM players anytime soon. I am surprised he would exploit this bug so shortly after coming back from his match-fixing scandal.
LOL Nestea didn't even notice during the game and no viewers noticed during GSTL at all. ONLY byun noticed so IMHO there should be no argument here, only GOM is to blame.
It was pretty bad sportsmanship not to immediately report it to the GSL staff, but I can't fault him entirely for doing everything (barely) within the rules to win.
Byun noticed a change that most of the players did not notice because it is a standard feature in maps and they take them for granted. In doing so, he must have checked other maps to see if the same changes had been made so that he could utilize the same bunker block on other maps. If he did, which I have no doubt that he did, he would have found that the difference was unique to Metropolis. That he did not report the issue and that he chose to keep it quiet shows his character.
If GOMTV had any balls, they would replay the entire series. Its one thing to lose a game. Its another to lose to an incredibly stupid strat that you did not even think was possible on the map you were playing. At the very least, the series should be replayed with Nestea down 0-2 to at least give him the chance to come back.
Yeah, it sucks. Nestea is a champer. Basically, the game can't be replayed for two reasons in my mind:
1. Byun prepared that way, preparation is everything in GSL. 2. Nestea pulled his drones back before he killed one of the SCVs making one of the bunkers. I don't know if itwas a misclick or just he didn't acknowledge correctly which drones he was using to make those spine crawlers. I do know that is a blunder.
It's like a different yet similar situation of parting vs mkp in gstl finals. Although someone is clearly dealt with unfairly, no one was dealt a certain loss(parting could of won the game again, nestea could of won the series)
Although it sucks, it's better to just move on. Edit: Those coming into the thread to harp on Byun's morals, remember the korean mentality of winning overrides the western honor. Gom certainly fucked up. But Byun is fine unless you start getting western on him and ignoring his culture. A Korean who went to MLG once said that it's interesting to see foreign fans because they care about what happens in the game, while koreans mainly focus on the winning part. Do not keep that idea out of consideration in your frivolous judgements of the situation.
It's NesTea's 'fault' for not noticing the neutral supply depot. Byun noticed it and NesTea didn't so Byun should win. It's a real fuck-up by GOMTV though.
On July 13 2012 13:55 BrassMonkey27 wrote: Byun's a tool.. Great player but a snake. He certainly won't be getting any favours from IM players anytime soon. I am surprised he would exploit this bug so shortly after coming back from his match-fixing scandal.
That's what surprises me, too, although I'm not ready to call him a snake.
I imagine Korea would at least have a larger uproar over this than on the foreign side, which doesn't necessarily amount to much. Is there any word?
To me, that's relatively important simply because I thought Byun was going to be more careful about this sort of thing--or anything remotely similar--because of the Coca/Byun incident. In their "return" interviews, iirc, both stated feeling some pressure or lingering hate from Korean fans. Their behavior shouldn't be guided by hateful fans, but it demonstrates a general difference of expectations in Korea, as did the Naniwa probe rush.
No, I don't want the results changed, aside from wishful thinking that Nestea played better and won the series. I don't want any punishment from GOM for Byun, especially as GOM and the map maker share responsibility in all scenarios and in some, Byun has none. Maybe a private warning is all it merits. I'm just a bit suspicious that someone who wanted a free win in the past sidestepped the most honest path, seeking another free win. An easy justification would be, "it's their fault this time," especially when that's partially true.
No, I don't want the results changed, aside from wishful thinking that Nestea played better and won the series. I don't want any punishment from GOM for Byun, especially as GOM and the map maker share responsibility in all scenarios and in some, Byun has none. Maybe a private warning is all it merits. I'm just a bit suspicious that someone who wanted a free win in the past sidestepped the most honest path, seeking another free win. An easy justification would be, "it's their fault this time," especially when that's partially true.
In all honesty, I completely discount the previous indiscretion. That was a somewhat innocent though boneheaded move. This move was premeditated. There is a huge difference.
ah well, as much of a fan I am of Nestea's, Byun just played astoundingly well, and to have a specific strategy forming around a bug in the map...this guy planned everything out to the last detail
On July 13 2012 13:55 BrassMonkey27 wrote: Byun's a tool.. Great player but a snake. He certainly won't be getting any favours from IM players anytime soon. I am surprised he would exploit this bug so shortly after coming back from his match-fixing scandal.
Man if you guys want to talk about "Esports" being recognized you gotta realize what it takes to be a competitor at the elite level of anything... so if byun found this and nobody else caught on, good for him. Shows that he knows what it takes to win and will be cheering for him for now on.
This is like reading fans of football giving excuses to why their team lost, be it the weather or the fact that the captain entered the field with the left foot, amusing really.
Nestea's won his money, the Kespa players are coming, and Byun exploited bnet 0.2/bad game design needing band-aids to win. Players found bugs before in other games in BW and were lauded for it (EG effort sneaking lings in the back of destination).
On July 13 2012 15:01 SeAK wrote: Man if you guys want to talk about "Esports" being recognized you gotta realize what it takes to be a competitor at the elite level of anything... so if byun found this and nobody else caught on, good for him. Shows that he knows what it takes to win and will be cheering for him for now on.
Actually, a true sportsmanship behaviour in a real sport would of told GoM about the problem the first thing they noticed, and then asked if it was intended.
A wrong version of the map Metropolis was mistakenly used for Set 1 of IM-LGNesTea vs ByuNPrime’s match during the GSL Season 3 Code S Ro8 matches on July 12th.
We would like to sincerely apologize for this incident and are sorry for disappointing the viewers and players, who have worked hard to prepare for these matches.
The GSL map pool consists of official ladder maps and specially designed new maps. The maps used in the GSL are constantly evolving and are reviewed and improved upon every season. As you all know, the mapmakers for the GSL are of exceptional skill and have produced several outstanding maps, some of which have been accepted into Blizzard's official ladder map pool and are used by tournaments around the world.
Among these maps we have Metropolis, which has been in use for several seasons now. Metropolis has had some specific problems, which are not related to balance, that have been fixed over time. Metropolis is a map that is plagued by performance issues caused by frame drops on certain locations, a fact that has been pointed out by many pro-gamers when the map was first released (that is why the map was removed from the official ladder map pool shortly after it was introduced).
We worked together with the mapmaker to tackle the problem and fixed part of the frame drop issues by optimizing certain aspects regarding the use of environmental features. Despite these efforts, there have still been players who have complained about the low FPS. Upon request of a player, our mapmaker proceeded to fix the problems by making improvements to some of the textures used and re-published the map.
During this process, the neutral supply depot that is placed in front of the entrance to the main base disappeared. This likely was caused due to a bug that sometimes appears when uploading a map to battle.net. The mapmaker did not contact GOMTV regarding the changes to the map as there have been no changes to the balance and only a slight texture adjustment had been made. The mapmaker was unaware of the fact that the supply depot had disappeared.
Due to this oversight by the mapmaker and GOMTV, LG-IMNesTea was faced with an unfavorable position in Set 1 of LG-IMNesTea vs ByuNPrime. We would like to sincerely apologize to LG-IMNesTea, the LG-IM Team, and the viewers for this mistake.
LG-IMNesTea and LG-IM's coach, Dong-Hoon Kang, realized there had been a change to the map and requested confirmation. At this point the match had already ended so they only requested a revision of the map for future matches. They did not ask for a rematch and accepted the loss. We would like to thank LG-IMNesTea and the LG-IM Team for this courageous decision.
The supply depot issue has now been fixed and Metropolis has been re-published. It will be used in upcoming GSL and GSTL matches in its revised state.
We will work hard to avoid similar mistakes in the future and would like to thank all parties involved for their cooperation.
Holy crap why is this 28 pages. Byun found a bug, he exploited it and won. Whats wrong with that? No one plays this game to give your opponent an equal chance, people play to win. And that's just what Byun did. And it's not like it really matters that much, nestea got completely outplayed in the other 2 macro style games that all the whiners like to see.
On July 13 2012 11:52 L3g3nd_ wrote: do we even need the neutral depot anymore? zergs have improved to a state where they are now capable of patroling a drone on the ramp, and as a protoss it annoys me for sim citying my wall off on some maps.
do you really want every zerg to start qq'ing again, look at how many buffs they already got from doing it. They even brought a meaningless thread to 28 pages for christ sake.
"He used Terran and beat a Zerg 3-0? Let's blame the entire series on imbalance!! In the meanwhile let's look pretty with our 80% winrate in GSL this season."
On July 13 2012 15:01 SeAK wrote: Man if you guys want to talk about "Esports" being recognized you gotta realize what it takes to be a competitor at the elite level of anything... so if byun found this and nobody else caught on, good for him. Shows that he knows what it takes to win and will be cheering for him for now on.
Actually, a true sportsmanship behaviour in a real sport would of told GoM about the problem the first thing they noticed, and then asked if it was intended.
Yeah, except a change in a map isn't a "problem". It's just a change in the map. He just saw that the depots were gone. It's not as if he asked the map maker and then kept the answer to himself.
On July 13 2012 15:45 Chaggi wrote: Holy crap why is this 28 pages. Byun found a bug, he exploited it and won. Whats wrong with that? No one plays this game to give your opponent an equal chance, people play to win. And that's just what Byun did. And it's not like it really matters that much, nestea got completely outplayed in the other 2 macro style games that all the whiners like to see.
It's unsportsmanlike. Now the second such incident in Byun's SC2 history. Good on Nestea for being the better player and not asking for a rematch. That's class. Byun could learn a thing or two from Nestea.
Very admirable of Nestea/IM coach to not ask for a rematch but for a future revision.
It's a sad affair but similiar things have happend in the past iirc, in wc3/bw.
There were also many times when the players didn't know the spawn locations of maps, it's up to them to keep up with the new changes(which are every week it seems, hah).
On July 13 2012 15:01 SeAK wrote: Man if you guys want to talk about "Esports" being recognized you gotta realize what it takes to be a competitor at the elite level of anything... so if byun found this and nobody else caught on, good for him. Shows that he knows what it takes to win and will be cheering for him for now on.
Actually, a true sportsmanship behaviour in a real sport would of told GoM about the problem the first thing they noticed, and then asked if it was intended.
Yeah, except a change in a map isn't a "problem". It's just a change in the map. He just saw that the depots were gone. It's not as if he asked the map maker and then kept the answer to himself.
That's like if Byun noticed Nestea was systematically supply blocked at 150/150 every game, and he went to tell him about it beforehand, because it would be more sportsman-like.
I'm really surprised that Nestea didn't notice in practice (or no Zergs for that matter), he must have played countless games on it. If he had been practicing ZvP you can be sure Seed or YongHwa would have 3 pylon blocked him, that's just something you instinctively do as Protoss if you can ;D
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think about it makes me feel sick. Oh, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the mapmaker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
I am really having trouble understanding why people have negative feelings towards Byun over this. Setting up a venue, selecting maps, ... all of that stuff is pretty firmly the jurisdiction of the tournament host.
It is certainly a very unfortunate mistake and I'm really glad GOM is taking responsibility.
Also... so manner of Nestea, though I wish he had just PPed when he saw the missing depot.
On July 13 2012 16:26 Heimatloser wrote: 2 Comparisons:
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think about it makes me feel sick. Oh, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the mapmaker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
what impact? do you mean on nestea's mentality?
also similar stuff has happened in bw, that boxer osl incident iirc
On July 13 2012 16:26 Heimatloser wrote: 2 Comparisons:
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think it makes me feel sick, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the maphacker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
You can draw all the comparisons you want, in this story, we gave Nestea the full description of the road, or we gave him the card deck for him to examine, and he didn't do it well enough, while Byun did. Don't tell me Zergs don't study maps, they do, just to look for good overlord spots and shit.
So I agree with you, GOM made an error, but if Nestea can't be held accountable for this, so can't Byun. If anything I'd praise him, that was so sneaky it became smart. So, obviously not the most ethical move (he could have indeed pointed the flaw out to GOM, just to confirm), but a smart one, and one definitely within the boundaries set by the rules.
On July 13 2012 16:09 tranmillitary wrote: you could argue why zerg's are so greedy and want the expo at their nat so early. Why is zerg the only race with a free Expo??
Nestea lost all 3 maps, so he wasn't playin well anyways.
First of all, Blizzard thinks 2 bunker rush or other kinds or rushes to punish hatch first "greedy" Zerg is OK. The fact that we don't have neutral depot on ladder after 2 years of Zerg complaining proves their stance on this.
Now, what GOM thinks must be totally different from Blizzard. GOM's job is not to balance the game, but to bring as much entertainment value as possible to the audience. A year and months ago, GOM decided that ramp blocking vs Zerg would bring unexiting games where the entire focus is if block completes or Zerg defends it well. Many other tournament organizers followed this.
Dear Terran players, Blizzard is and has been supporting 2 bunker block vs "greedy" 15 hatch. Just do it and win on ladder as 90%+ Zerg currently go 15 hatch. What's stopping you? Dear spectators of SC2 e-sports, tournament organizers decided that providing ramp blocking games in ,say, 20% of whole tournament games is not what spectators want, so they put a neutral depot.
Just contact GOM or other tournament organizers and tell them you wouldn't stop watching 4 SCVs vs patrolling drone games. Then, they might consider removing the depot. Balance itself is not their primary cocern, they care about entertainment value that comes out of it.
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
This is just so wrong. Bug or no bug, that's the map that was available to everyone before the date of play and on it...there is no reason to accuse Byun. How was he supposed to know it was a mistake? He may have assumed that is how the map maker wanted it to be, but that doesn't even matter. The point is that there was no way to tell it was a mistake, and the map was the same for everyone, so there is no excuse
On July 13 2012 16:45 Latty wrote: I dont care if its a bug or not, i dislike strats like byun used, walling off a ramp is the lamset thing known to man. period.
I think it was the most fun game of the day. Opinions, eh?
On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote: byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
This is just so wrong. Bug or no bug, that's the map that was available to everyone before the date of play and on it...there is no reason to accuse Byun. How was he supposed to know it was a mistake? He may have assumed that is how the map maker wanted it to be, but that doesn't even matter. The point is that there was no way to tell it was a mistake, and the map was the same for everyone, so there is no excuse
He probably has personal reasons to talk shit about Byun (like he does about MKP, it's Idra after all). Also, he is one of those zergs who believe that 2 rax bunker block is 'op' strategy against zerg and must be prevented (which is fucking not true and only works against bad/greedy zergs who does not know how to respond to it). Even without ramp block, Nestea wouldn't have defended it because his micro and decisions were just shitty. Nestea lost not because of bad map, he lost because of bad decisions and micro which were punished even harder by the map (but no way it was the main factor). In addition, 11/11 Rax ramp block isn't so strong on a map like metropolis and zergs should be able to stop it if they do everything properly. A lot of players are being fucked up by maps in many tournaments: Metalopolis TvZ/PvZ, Bel' Shir Beach PvZ, Daybreak TvZ/PvZ and so on. All of them are heavily favouring zergs, but I don't see stupid excuse and whine threads about how should these maps be changed or games replayed on other maps.
And people who are accusing Byun- you are just retards. The map was created, and Byun played to the map in order to win. I don't even think he thought "It's a wrong map, because there is no supply depot at bottom of the ramp!". He probably chose to 11/11 rax before he knew there was no depot (he didn't base his strategy on the map, it was a surprise cheese in a first game of the series). And even if he did notice that, maybe he simply didn't think of doing something about it . Pausing the game (which can give you a warning, like in Genius vs Naniwa series) just to inform opponent/caster about possible wrong map which has very minor impact on the game? It doesn't even sound logical to me. Nestea should have done it, but he didn't.
The game was created by GSL referee and both players played to the rules. The were no cheating, no 'bad' guys. It's a referee who kinda fucked-up by not noticing it, but it's even not a big deal. It's just silly drama queens and fan boys looking for excuses and possible sensations.
On July 13 2012 16:45 Latty wrote: I dont care if its a bug or not, i dislike strats like byun used, walling off a ramp is the lamset thing known to man. period.
I think it was the most fun game of the day. Opinions, eh?
it reminded me of when MVP put bunkers between the main and natural on bel'shir beach against Nestea.
Game should have been instantly remade. It's not like he exploited something specific only to metropolis, ie a nook or a cranny to hide a marine. He exploited somthing he knew was wrong and that he thought he could get away with.
If it mentally costed Nestea the series he's not at the level of a true champion, as a true champion you need to be able to forget your last match and go into the next one freshly. I don't think thats the case though, im pretty sure nestea went into the next series freshly because of his experience in championships and playing. And in that case, the series weren't really close in the rest of the games. So one could argue if it even would have mattered. Its a big possibility ByuN would have taken the first map if it played out like the rest of the series. Then again, mistakes like these shouldn't really be allowed.
On July 13 2012 18:23 Huragius wrote: The map was created, and Byun played to the map in order to win. I don't even think he thought "It's a wrong map, because there is no supply depot at bottom of the ramp!". He probably chose to 11/11 rax before he knew there was no depot (he didn't base his strategy on the map, it was a surprise cheese in a first game of the series). And even if he did notice that, maybe he simply didn't think of doing something about it . Pausing the game (which can give you a warning, like in Genius vs Naniwa series) just to inform opponent/caster about possible wrong map which has very minor impact on the game? It doesn't even sound logical to me. Nestea should have done it, but he didn't..
byun noticed the lack of supply depot in a gstl match, he confirmed it and then planned to do a bunker block on the map.
On July 13 2012 16:26 Heimatloser wrote: 2 Comparisons:
EITHER: This is like, lets say rain at a football or soccer match, like a fallen tree on the road in tour de france or a whole in the road in formula uno. The guy who gets distracted and loses for it, doesnt recognize and has to break or simply crashes, is to blame for himself since this is to be expected and falls under something like "natural influences". Blizzard programming buggy tools is a natural influence in this scenario, or a mapmaker making an error.
OR:This is like Game of Poker with 3 Aces, like soccer with a not normed ball.
Me for myself is a fan of the second part. I think is is totally unprofessional and unacceptable by GOM. I have never ever heard of a "hups, wrong version, but its the players fault for not recognizing it midgame" in the whole history of broodwar. and to simply think about it makes me feel sick. Oh, the possibilities... this is even worse like maphacking. Just go to the mapmaker and tell him "hey, could you add an extra mineral patch at this and that expansion where nobody usually expands". You expand there, you win, other player didnt recognize while playing so the win is legit? WTF? Also its unbelievable that GOM doesnt take a second look at the maps and lets the mapmaker directly upload.
But what i hate most is, that this whole situation is downplayed to "byun vs nestea" and "he won 3:0 anyways so i dont care". Dont you people see that this is so much bigger? Dont you see the impact?
While yes it is not right to downplay it to simply "he won 3:0 anyways", there isn't much you can do. After the game itself there's not much you can do if you don't raise the issue right after the game, or during.
You can't entirely blame GOM for the mistake, although if it had to go to anyone it would be them, no one would think that you would have to inform GOM for a texture update. Obviously if nothing on the map itself changes then you wouldn't have an need to review the map. The problem came from a bug while uploading maps which is out of the control of everyone. The mapmaker didn't intend to remove it, I think you are taking this way out of proportion.
Ultimately GOM did the best they could do with the situation and now they can learn from it, it's extremely hard to put the blame onto anyone.
To be fair, i would have to say that if Nestea won the first game instead of losing, the series would go to the forth and maybe the fifth maps, which both maps are Zerg favored. Nestea might have a chance on those two maps.
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended. You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
this implies asking is too hard. the fact he found something odd, and then didnt bring it up to gom before the game shows he was intentionally being devious.
its not like byun did it knowing its a bug he looked vods last weeks and it wasnt there so he thought its no more in map ... not his fault great played
u guys do like its a fungame ... its their LIFE the money is their life ... guys you do EVERYTHING you can for win at least at its fair and byun could have nO idea its a bug ... so no his fault ...
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended. You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
this implies asking is too hard. the fact he found something odd, and then didnt bring it up to gom before the game shows he was intentionally being devious.
Eh what? The same map was used the week before, why would he question that if no one else have changed it in a week? Should he assume that GOM, the mapmaker, everyone else playing/watching games on that map are blind? That you twist that into him being devious is more devious by you than anything else...
On July 13 2012 19:10 CoR wrote: its not like byun did it knowing its a bug he looked vods last weeks and it wasnt there so he thought its no more in map ... not his fault great played
u guys do like its a fungame ... its their LIFE the money is their life ... guys you do EVERYTHING you can for win at least at its fair and byun could have nO idea its a bug ... so no his fault ...
No pretty sure he knew it was a bug. Doesn't matter though. It's not his fault for taking every advantage he can.
OMFG , are u kidding me? I feel so awfully bad for Nestea right now. If it had happened on ladder, i would just be a game. But, this is the GSL ro8 man, and alot of prize money is on the line as well. It just isn't fair to state that the game is over and henceforth just apologize and end of story. There either needs a regame or a compensation of some sort at least.
On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote: The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended. You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
this implies asking is too hard. the fact he found something odd, and then didnt bring it up to gom before the game shows he was intentionally being devious.
Eh what? The same map was used the week before, why would he question that if no one else have changed it in a week? Should he assume that GOM, the mapmaker, everyone else playing/watching games on that map are blind? That you twist that into him being devious is more devious by you than anything else...
they would of been told if there was intentional changes to the map pool, gom didnt tell anyone that anything has changed. its pretty obvious it was a mistake. but because only 1 guy noticed its ok?
I was kinda upset to see the no depot. I stayed up til like 8 AM EST to watch that night's GSL and was cheering on Nestea. I think that was a big mental hit to him going into the series. But I do give it to Byun for playing well, but can't help to think if Nestea was affected by it or not. There must be a lot of pressure on him to try catching up to MVP in titles and live up to his legend.
@Orek, and other people: Double bunker is easy to stop, but near impossible to stop if you think you're safe vs it, a drone patrolling on the bottom of ramp will stop it.
GOM should have pointed out to players they changed the map.
It doesnt matter Nestea "would" have lost anyway, its fucked up anyways.
With the updated information, kudos to Nestea and IM for dealing with it in such an honourable way. It may have been his loss, but glad to see him being mature and realistic about it and accepting it. +even more respect
On July 13 2012 19:46 expellist wrote: OMFG , are u kidding me? I feel so awfully bad for Nestea right now. If it had happened on ladder, i would just be a game. But, this is the GSL ro8 man, and alot of prize money is on the line as well. It just isn't fair to state that the game is over and henceforth just apologize and end of story. There either needs a regame or a compensation of some sort at least.
You're making it sound like this cheese is impossible to hold. Nestea has done hatch first builds since the first GSL seasons back in 2010 and the double bunker/triple pylons blocks were used a lot back then already. They added neutral depots in tournaments like GSL but not on ladder, so I'm sure he gets abused by this on a weekly basis during practice.
On July 13 2012 19:46 expellist wrote: OMFG , are u kidding me? I feel so awfully bad for Nestea right now. If it had happened on ladder, i would just be a game. But, this is the GSL ro8 man, and alot of prize money is on the line as well. It just isn't fair to state that the game is over and henceforth just apologize and end of story. There either needs a regame or a compensation of some sort at least.
Did you even watch the games? Byun outplayed Nestea. Nestea probably thinks he would have lost regardless of the neutral depot so complaining would just make him look like a whiner.
I think Nestea would've lost anyways. Very professional reaction nonetheless by both Nestea and the coach. Sucks that it happened, but meh, shit happens.
It's sort of wierd that these sorts of things actually do happen. There should be a double-check by both mapmakers and GSL staff that games are played on the correct versions of the map or players should get noticed about such changes. A little bit unprofessional on the GSL side.
nesteas reaction yesterday to the bunker rushes was just not very good. even in set one he saw the proxy rax and scvs but he failed to block with drones and got killed.
but yes it does suck to be bunker rushed twice in a row. its not as easy to stop as some ppl think it is.
GSL deserves a lot of professionalism credit here. Obviously the most professional thing is for this not to happen, but this is a level of response that most leagues wouldn't give. I still remember watching some early-ish season of NASL as they seemed to carefully make sure that they used every existing version of Tal'Darim Altar other than the one they were supposed to use, and never said anything. You can tell that Korean fans hold GSL to the standards of professional sports, and GSL responds by acting like it. I'll be happy when foreign leagues get to that level.
On the one hand, I feel sorry for Nestea for being "cheated" out of a game.
On the other hand, looking at this from Byun's perspective... why didn't he inform GSL of this bug, choosing to exploit it instead? Very unsportsmanlike from Byun, I'm disappointed in him.
The weirdest thing about it all is that GomTV simply didn't interrupt the game when they noticed it. A referee should interrupt the game if he notices something is wrong with the game or playing field. It's like in tennis when the referee thinks the net is too low or it rains too much, the ref is and should be able to take the decision on it's own. Surely GomTV must have known something was wrong the moment the bunkers went down..
at least it was discovered in a rofl stomp one sided game not a close series that could go either way, in the end it didnt affect the end result and it got the issue sorted
On July 13 2012 22:42 Markwerf wrote: The weirdest thing about it all is that GomTV simply didn't interrupt the game when they noticed it. A referee should interrupt the game if he notices something is wrong with the game or playing field. It's like in tennis when the referee thinks the net is too low or it rains too much, the ref is and should be able to take the decision on it's own. Surely GomTV must have known something was wrong the moment the bunkers went down..
Problem is that it is too far in. The proxy was already made, they were already in game. In your example a referee wouldn't be able to do it midfight when one of players was hard pressed. Nestea should have paused the game on spot but reality is he didn't so this is where we is.
On July 13 2012 23:08 Zandar wrote: Pretty lame to exploit a bug like that instead of acting like a progamer should and let GSL know about it,
How was Byun to know it was a bug? The map without a depot was used for several matches and no one said anything until Byun blocked the ramp with bunkers. It's GOM's fault for not noticing that one of their maps was missing the neutral depot.
On July 13 2012 23:11 skipdog172 wrote: Still just one game.... mistakes happen. Nestea got outclased every game regardless of that depot incident though...
The series may have ended differently though if that game didn't happen.
Honestly nothing wrong with ByuN using it (or attempting to), but the GSL ref should have required a regame at that point, that was ridiculously poorly handled by GOM.
On July 13 2012 23:08 Zandar wrote: Pretty lame to exploit a bug like that instead of acting like a progamer should and let GSL know about it,
How was Byun to know it was a bug? The map without a depot was used for several matches and no one said anything until Byun blocked the ramp with bunkers. It's GOM's fault for not noticing that one of their maps was missing the neutral depot.
Dude he knew it was a bug, all GSL maps have neutral supply depots + he's played the map a million times before the issue with a neutral supply depot, and GOMTV never made an official statement about a change on the maps. It's really surprising no one even mentioned the change in the code a games.
I don't think it is fair. Once Terran took the ramp, the Zerg is pretty much lost half of the game (unless Zerg did a mighty quick boss walk and bust the bunker before the marine arrives. Should there be a way to stop the game halfway?
This is an unbelievably disappointing oversight and tarnished an absolutely incredible GSL season. I sincerely hope measures are put in place so nothing like this would happen again.
It's really hard to blame the players or coaches on this one. Making sure these things do not happen should be GOM's job.
If Byun noticed during GSTL and he didn't report it that's just SO SMART! And NesTea should've known which version of Metropolis was supposed to have been used - he is a pro after all. When the double bunkers went down, he could've paused and said: "Wait a minute, isn't there supposed to be a neutral depot there?" May be if he does that, he gets the mental upper-hand?!
But shoulda, coulda, woulda - NesTea was outplayed and it's very big of him and LG-IM to accept their loss gracefully, rather than what happens in other pro-sports where players/teams demand rematches after losses for the slightest irregularities.
NesTea - not just the creator of the universe, but also a real class act.
On July 13 2012 23:11 skipdog172 wrote: Still just one game.... mistakes happen. Nestea got outclased every game regardless of that depot incident though...
The series may have ended differently though if that game didn't happen.
Honestly nothing wrong with ByuN using it (or attempting to), but the GSL ref should have required a regame at that point, that was ridiculously poorly handled by GOM.
I'm going to assume that you posted this after the official statement. The refs asked the coach and Nestea if they wanted to do a rematch since they pointed the mistake out to the refs after the game was over. They declined the rematch.
This kind of thing shouldn't happen but shit does happen time to time. I think they handled it the best way. You don't want to force the player who lost to play a rematch if they don't want to.
On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote: 1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
This is one of the most ignorant and painful to read posts I have ever seen.
All your points 1-3 are just ridiculous. Koreans are not like foreigners (NaNiwa...); if they think the map is wrong, they do not immediately pause the game and call GSL a "joke tournament." They are not going to pause the game to get a clarification on the rules and as to whether or not that bunker rush is "legal." NesTea also probably went in to the game not having a single thought about bunkers at the bottom of his ramp so he was not prepared for it.
As far as point 4 goes, bunker rushes are completely legal and fair and if you place them right you can even abuse map terrain (Mvp vs Lucky on Entombed Valley, for instance--though I am not sure if they changed that small spot where you could hide a Marine). However, the community decided a long time ago that being able to block ramps early game leads to situations where the Zerg cannot win. You yourself even say "just not ramp blocks;" there is a reason why people do not use ramp blocks: maps have been designed to prevent that from happening.
Had NesTea gone into this game knowing that that depot was not there like Byun did, he almost certainly would have reacted to the Maka Rax by preventing any bunker wall ins. However, he was not prepared for it because a long time ago it was decided that bunker blocking ramps was unfair and bad for viewership. Having a single, random drone running back and forth at your ramp is something that you don't just do. It does beat this strategy, but it's a strategy that is abusing the fact that it is not the map that NesTea was expecting to play on. And they are only balanced because nobody does that sort of thing on ladder (well, other than avilo).
At the end of the day I am not saying Byun is entirely to blame for this and I would say a lot of the blame falls on the shoulders of GomTV and the map makers, but there certainly was a lack of sportsmanship from Byun's booth. The sportsmanlike approach would have been to make Gom aware of the missing depot and then letting them handle it. It seems pretty clear from what Byun said that he went in to the game planning on abusing the lack of the depot, he would not have chosen to 2 rax if the depot was there. It should not be left up to competitors to report things like this, but it would have been the right thing to do regardless due to the fact that he clearly noticed the error in the map and knew that NesTea would not be expecting it.
EDIT: The fact that LG-IM and NesTea declined the rematch and also the fact that GOM offered a rematch impresses me. Personally, the attitude that Korean players have is just so much better than the attitude that a lot of foreigner players have.
Yea. your post is mostly the same repeated stuff that everybody else is posting for last 30 pages (at least the ones trashing byun) Fucking 31 pages. First i said 'were going in a circle on page 13. Then i said it on page 20something, now 30. We are literally having the same conversation, with all you nestea fanboys sprouting the same info, and trying to fight the same fight we were arguing about on page 1. This thread is pointless. There was no controversy.
On July 14 2012 00:51 Psychonian wrote: I don't understand how the missing depot could have cost nestea the game.
EDIT: Ah, he blocked the ramp. I see.
no, leaving the scv at 5 hp cost him the game only pulling 2 workers cost him the game not patrolling correctly cost him the game
he scouted and had 30+ seconds to prepare for this, the depot had nothing to do with him losing
This is where most peoples' logic fault; why would he patrol a drone if the neutral depot was SUPPOSED to be there. Even if he got that first scv, he could not prevent that first bunker.
On July 14 2012 00:51 Psychonian wrote: I don't understand how the missing depot could have cost nestea the game.
EDIT: Ah, he blocked the ramp. I see.
no, leaving the scv at 5 hp cost him the game only pulling 2 workers cost him the game not patrolling correctly cost him the game
he scouted and had 30+ seconds to prepare for this, the depot had nothing to do with him losing
This is where most peoples' logic fault; why would he patrol a drone if the neutral depot was SUPPOSED to be there. Even if he got that first scv, he could not prevent that first bunker.
last time i checked, nestea has eyes to see if a neutral depot is there or not.
On July 14 2012 01:21 Neurosis wrote: It sucks but I don't think the outcome would have been any different if the depot had been there. By that I mean, Byun just had Nestea's number.
I suspect, in all likelihood, even if Byun didn't bunker rush, he'd have won the first game. However, we can't entirely discount the possibility of him losing game 1, then losing games 4 and 5, to lose 3-2. It's unlikely, given the way NesTea played in the three games we watched, but it's possible, and now, due to GOM's oversight, we'll never know how it would have gone.
I can only hope that GOM does a better job in the future of avoiding this sort of thing.
On July 13 2012 22:42 Markwerf wrote: The weirdest thing about it all is that GomTV simply didn't interrupt the game when they noticed it. A referee should interrupt the game if he notices something is wrong with the game or playing field. It's like in tennis when the referee thinks the net is too low or it rains too much, the ref is and should be able to take the decision on it's own. Surely GomTV must have known something was wrong the moment the bunkers went down..
The casters (Tastetosis anyways) didn't know anything was wrong either, so I'm not sure the ref would either. He's been looking at the same depot-less map for 2 weeks like everyone else after all.
Since it sounds like the mapmaker uploaded the update on his own initiative and didn't tell anyone about it, I tend to agree with Diamond that this is on the mapmaker and not Gom/Byun/ect.
I'm a programmer by trade and let me tell you, the worst bugs tend to come about when someone does a stealth fix that "couldn't possibly have any other side-effects".
Offtopic - is this upload 'bug' a known issue? If so, then the mapmaker definitely should have tested for that (good QA means keeping a checklist of known problems past and present to make sure they don't crop up again).
On July 14 2012 01:26 Wuster wrote: Offtopic - is this upload 'bug' a known issue? If so, then the mapmaker definitely should have tested for that (good QA means keeping a checklist of known problems past and present to make sure they don't crop up again).
A couple mapmakers posted in this thread indicating that they haven't had to deal with this bug, and were skeptical of the mapmaker's story, though one of them said that given the crapitude of the blizzard map editor he wouldn't be surprised.
On July 14 2012 01:26 Wuster wrote: Offtopic - is this upload 'bug' a known issue? If so, then the mapmaker definitely should have tested for that (good QA means keeping a checklist of known problems past and present to make sure they don't crop up again).
A couple mapmakers posted in this thread indicating that they haven't had to deal with this bug, and were skeptical of the mapmaker's story, though one of them said that given the crapitude of the blizzard map editor he wouldn't be surprised.
I half expected this bug to be the mapmaker trying to deflect blame, but like I said, if he knew it could happen he should have double checked after.
Also food for thought: Crossfire and Dual Sight did *not* have neutral supply depots below the ramp (more reasons to hate Crossfire I guess). So it's not unprecendented to be able to bunker block in the 'modern' GSL.
I remember long ago there was a situation where Boxer prepared a build where he could siege up a tank in range of a player's natural. I don't remember what tournament or what map it was, but it was a little trick he discovered himself and was going to trash his opponent. Unfortunately, the map version that was uploaded for the match was wrong, and his tank couldn't get in position. I don't remember what the outcome was, but it sucked pretty hard.
I would argue that there really should be a regame in this case. In my opinion, it was pretty BM of Byun to take advantage of what was clearly a mistake in the map to perform a ridiculous cheese. It would be like in a NFL game if the uprights for one side were only half as wide as the others or something. /pitchforks
There's no knowing the extent of psychological effect it would have had on the players in a multi-game series. Besides, no one prepares for a bunker rush that is useless on the map that they expect to be playing on.
I don't know much about the SC2 mapmaking, but it might be a similar case to the SC1 editor where editing one layer may affect others. Maybe changing the terrain or doodad layer accidentally overlapped and deleted the supply depot.
People saying "This costed Nestea the set" basically robs Byun of his great performance that day.
The outcome would be probably the same, with the difference that it would be 3-1. Byun played outstanding starcraft, while Nestea did not. It's simple that it is.
On July 14 2012 02:55 amazingoopah wrote: The responsibility for this clusterf*ck lies on GSL's lap... shouldn't they double check all maps that are going to be played on just in case?
I'm sure this is a very rare and unexpected occurence. However since it had been out for a week or something someone should've brought it up before this match.
the map maker said that an upload bug caused the depots to disappear? i wonder if that is actually true cus that just sounds like an excuse to me :O
since the IM coach complained after the end of set 2, it is very possible that nestea was mentally affected despite him being a champ. although nestea has looked weak to multipronged harass in the past in games vs MMA, he did look weaker than normal in this set. it's sad that there is a possibility that the double bunker rush put him at a mental/score disadvantage.
and yeah i agree that this puts byun in a negative light. if he goes on to win the GSL it will be a huge disappointment. no respect for byun but i can understand hes gotta do what hes gotta do to try to win due to the current state of the TvZ metagame.
On July 14 2012 02:42 ticklishmusic wrote: I remember long ago there was a situation where Boxer prepared a build where he could siege up a tank in range of a player's natural. I don't remember what tournament or what map it was, but it was a little trick he discovered himself and was going to trash his opponent. Unfortunately, the map version that was uploaded for the match was wrong, and his tank couldn't get in position. I don't remember what the outcome was, but it sucked pretty hard.
I would argue that there really should be a regame in this case. In my opinion, it was pretty BM of Byun to take advantage of what was clearly a mistake in the map to perform a ridiculous cheese. It would be like in a NFL game if the uprights for one side were only half as wide as the others or something. /pitchforks
There's no knowing the extent of psychological effect it would have had on the players in a multi-game series. Besides, no one prepares for a bunker rush that is useless on the map that they expect to be playing on.
I don't know much about the SC2 mapmaking, but it might be a similar case to the SC1 editor where editing one layer may affect others. Maybe changing the terrain or doodad layer accidentally overlapped and deleted the supply depot.
Incubus was the map, sky osl against Garimto, first game, boxer lost set one and won the next two, dropping the fourth and fifth. Would of won his third osl with a casual 3-0 if he could of hit the natural off an island with a tank. If you watched the nestea game you would know he would of lost all three sets regardless, he simply handled an easy rush with horrible execution, not to mention he was complaining the night before about how he was going to lose.
On July 14 2012 02:42 ticklishmusic wrote: I would argue that there really should be a regame in this case. In my opinion, it was pretty BM of Byun to take advantage of what was clearly a mistake in the map to perform a ridiculous cheese.
Why was it clearly a mistake when recent GSL maps have allowed bunker rushes? Besides Crossfire and Dual Sight not having neutral depots, the old 'ramp-less' maps like Tal'Darim and Bel'Shir never had anything to prevent a block between the main and natural either (in fact, MVP bunker walled Nestea on Bel'Shir last summer, and MC pylon walled Idra on Tal'Darim in MLG).
On July 14 2012 02:43 An2quamaraN wrote: People saying "This costed Nestea the set" basically robs Byun of his great performance that day.
The outcome would be probably the same, with the difference that it would be 3-1. Byun played outstanding starcraft, while Nestea did not. It's simple that it is.
byun robbed his own victory by using underhanded tactics. if he brought up whut he knew about the depot to GSL then the map wouldve been changed and he wouldnt have been able to bunker block.
if u think the map wouldnt have been changed if it was brought up, then yes byun's win is untainted.
On July 14 2012 02:42 ticklishmusic wrote: I remember long ago there was a situation where Boxer prepared a build where he could siege up a tank in range of a player's natural. I don't remember what tournament or what map it was, but it was a little trick he discovered himself and was going to trash his opponent. Unfortunately, the map version that was uploaded for the match was wrong, and his tank couldn't get in position. I don't remember what the outcome was, but it sucked pretty hard.
I would argue that there really should be a regame in this case. In my opinion, it was pretty BM of Byun to take advantage of what was clearly a mistake in the map to perform a ridiculous cheese. It would be like in a NFL game if the uprights for one side were only half as wide as the others or something. /pitchforks
There's no knowing the extent of psychological effect it would have had on the players in a multi-game series. Besides, no one prepares for a bunker rush that is useless on the map that they expect to be playing on.
I don't know much about the SC2 mapmaking, but it might be a similar case to the SC1 editor where editing one layer may affect others. Maybe changing the terrain or doodad layer accidentally overlapped and deleted the supply depot.
Incubus was the map, sky osl against Garimto, first game, boxer lost set one and won the next two, dropping the fourth and fifth. Would of won his third osl with a casual 3-0 if he could of hit the natural off an island with a tank. If you watched the nestea game you would know he would of lost all three sets regardless, he simply handled an easy rush with horrible execution, not to mention he was complaining the night before about how he was going to lose.
you sir are amazing and just saved me from rereading boxer's biography (even though it is a pretty good read). hurts though, knowing a little map problem like that cost you a championship and a golden mouse.
i watched it. it looked more like a "WAIT WHAT THE FUCK THIS SHIT ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE POSSIBLE" kind of reaction, but everyone has their own interpretation.
I feel like several of the points should be stickied on a note at the top of this topic, or put in the OP and a note put on top of this topic saying it's been added to the OP. The same points are being brought up and this topic really is going in circles. Otherwise, I say close this topic.
On July 14 2012 02:43 An2quamaraN wrote: People saying "This costed Nestea the set" basically robs Byun of his great performance that day.
The outcome would be probably the same, with the difference that it would be 3-1. Byun played outstanding starcraft, while Nestea did not. It's simple that it is.
byun robbed his own victory by using underhanded tactics. if he brought up whut he knew about the depot to GSL then the map wouldve been changed and he wouldnt have been able to bunker block.
if u think the map wouldnt have been changed if it was brought up, then yes byun's win is untainted.
Its not the terran's responsibility to make sure the zerg has his trusty neutral supply depot to save him. Zerg cried and whined so hard in order to get these put into the game and they dont even need them anymore. Get real.
On July 14 2012 02:42 ticklishmusic wrote: I would argue that there really should be a regame in this case. In my opinion, it was pretty BM of Byun to take advantage of what was clearly a mistake in the map to perform a ridiculous cheese. It would be like in a NFL game if the uprights for one side were only half as wide as the others or something. /pitchforks
Really sucks for Nestea. Obviously Byun outplayed him the last two games, but who knows how much that first game got into Nestea's head and affected his play.
It seems like Byun knew the map didn't have the supply depot ahead of time and prepared that build just for that map versus Nestea... maybe I am wrong, but that certainly seems to be the case, and because of that I have pretty much lost all respect for Byun as a person since he abused the wrong map and didn't inform GSL that they had been using the incorrect version.
Fortunately, Team IM and Nestea took the loss in good sportsmanship and didn't cause any drama for the GSL.
On July 14 2012 02:42 ticklishmusic wrote: I would argue that there really should be a regame in this case. In my opinion, it was pretty BM of Byun to take advantage of what was clearly a mistake in the map to perform a ridiculous cheese. It would be like in a NFL game if the uprights for one side were only half as wide as the others or something. /pitchforks
On July 14 2012 03:36 Nuclease wrote: Losing more and more respect for ByuN.
First, the cheating scandal.
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
Bunker block is a legit strategy on a map without a neutral depot. You ever play on the ladder? Why are people acting like this strategy is instant win? The depot should honestly be removed from all maps and zergs should support the removal if they have any self respect. ZERGS DONT NEED A NEUTRAL DEPOT.
On July 14 2012 03:44 ravemir wrote: I knew there had to be something strange for Nestea to go down in such spectacular fashion...
Nestea got brutalized in every game. A multiple time GSL winner doesn't get titled into that level of play by a mere Bunker rush.
Seriously, did we all forget his series vs sc? it started off with a bunker rush on metal, which nestea handled terribly. He still won the series and the tournament in the end. People saying that the bunker rush messed him up mentally are insulting his years of experience.
That stinks. I think it's awesome of Nestea and IM to not ask for a rematch and accept the mistake. They accepted the loses and the mistake. Others might have made a big stink out of it.
I feel like alot of people are downplaying how important the first set in any match is. It gives the winner so much mental momentum going into the next game.
I don't have the statistics in front of me to back it up, but in any best of x series I would be willing to bet the winner of the first game is more often then not the series winner.
On July 14 2012 00:02 iGn1t3 wrote: I don't think it is fair. Once Terran took the ramp, the Zerg is pretty much lost half of the game (unless Zerg did a mighty quick boss walk and bust the bunker before the marine arrives. Should there be a way to stop the game halfway?
Not really. With the Queen's new range, Nestea could have just made sure the Bunker never got up by killing the SCV with a queen at the top of the ramp.
On July 14 2012 04:06 Doomwish wrote: I feel like alot of people are downplaying how important the first set in any match is. It gives the winner so much mental momentum going into the next game.
I don't have the statistics in front of me to back it up, but in any best of x series I would be willing to bet the winner of the first game is more often then not the series winner.
Those statistics have less to do with psychology and more to do with, well, probabilities of someone with a high winrate winning a match when they only need to win 1 game and their opponent needs to win 2.
On July 14 2012 00:02 iGn1t3 wrote: I don't think it is fair. Once Terran took the ramp, the Zerg is pretty much lost half of the game (unless Zerg did a mighty quick boss walk and bust the bunker before the marine arrives. Should there be a way to stop the game halfway?
Not really. With the Queen's new range, Nestea could have just made sure the Bunker never got up by killing the SCV with a queen at the top of the ramp.
Bad scenario, he kills the SCV and is stuck with slowly getting the bunkers down. And is way behind from the start. The terran player can go for an easy natural and prepare for a 2base push or even better, a 2base allin and straight up beat the zerg very easily.
Worst case scenario, the SCV lives and Nestea wont even be able to push down his ramp.
Baaaahhhh! If theres no neutral supply depot, the terran can literally just autowin the map! I can understand that Blizzard doesnt understand its full purpose and dont have it on each and every map on the ladder map pool. But GSL is way more involved in the metagame than them.
I am not saying that Nesta would've won. But those supply depots are specifically there so that terran cant win that easily by cheesing! =/
On July 14 2012 04:06 Doomwish wrote: I feel like alot of people are downplaying how important the first set in any match is. It gives the winner so much mental momentum going into the next game.
I don't have the statistics in front of me to back it up, but in any best of x series I would be willing to bet the winner of the first game is more often then not the series winner.
News flash: Winning a game has a direct correlation to winning a series.
On July 14 2012 04:06 Doomwish wrote: I feel like alot of people are downplaying how important the first set in any match is. It gives the winner so much mental momentum going into the next game.
I don't have the statistics in front of me to back it up, but in any best of x series I would be willing to bet the winner of the first game is more often then not the series winner.
If both players have a 50% chance of winning any game the player who wins the 1st game will win the series 75% of the time.
its unfortunate for the integrity of the game that this happened but byun is not to blame he would have crushed nestea regaurdless and there is nothing wrong with what he did, its like getting mad at someone for making a lot of queens.
On July 14 2012 03:36 Nuclease wrote: Losing more and more respect for ByuN.
First, the cheating scandal.
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
You should be ashamed of yourself. It should be GOM that has lost some of your respect, for making such a egregious error in administration of their league. Byun is a competitive player, and he'll do whatever it takes to win. It's one of the reasons he's in the Ro4 this season. If you had actually watched the series, he wiped the floor with NesTea in the other two games. An experienced professional gamer and champion, like NesTea, can't use tilting as an excuse for losing 3:0. Byun was just the better player yesterday, and I'm as big of a NesTea fan as anyone (OK maybe not Artosis).
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
On July 14 2012 04:06 Doomwish wrote: I feel like alot of people are downplaying how important the first set in any match is. It gives the winner so much mental momentum going into the next game.
I don't have the statistics in front of me to back it up, but in any best of x series I would be willing to bet the winner of the first game is more often then not the series winner.
That's the problem. The first map is always important. If Metropolis is the 4th, 5th map, I can understand why Nestea didn't practice on it, but it's the first map, he's supposed to play a lot on it, his practice partners and teammates should have noticed it too. Same case with Byun, if he notices it, he has to practice the strat with his practice partners and teammates, and his practice partners should casually talk about it with their teammates and so on. Overall, thing is not as big as we make out to be, and not as small as it is supposed to be. I bet there're a bunch of progamers know about the map, but they just don't care/don't think of strat that take advantage of it given how big and macro-oriented Metropolis is.
If we look at another angle: If Byun has been practicing on the map, refining his bunker strats, then on game day, GOM suddenly patch the map and it has depot s now. Can Byun complain about it? I doubt so.
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
Rofl...can someone please close this thread?
I'm sick of hearing ridiculous equivocations like this one. Dual Sight + Crossfire didn't have supply depots by the way, and they were used for a long time. Plus, Bunker wall-offs aren't even imbalanced, especially in light of the new Queen change. Nobody cares if you don't like Byun or his team.
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
Rofl...can someone please close this thread?
I'm sick of hearing ridiculous equivocations like this one. Dual Sight + Crossfire didn't have supply depots by the way, and they were used for a long time.
i made a post in website feedback about closing it, no replys yet
the byun abuse is becoming pretty bad though, add to my thread
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
no that's not what he's saying... or if it is, he needs to learn to say things correctly, because there is nothing mysterious about your theory/explanation at all. he's clearly implying something else here, or he is just talking nonsense.
his team? lol why his team?
i like how the warriors-for-justice in this thread care more about it than Nestea does.. -.-
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
no that's not what he's saying... or if it is, he needs to learn to say things correctly, because there is nothing mysterious about your theory/explanation at all. he's clearly implying something else here, or he is just talking nonsense.
his team? lol why his team?
i like how the warriors-for-justice in this thread care more about it than Nestea does.. -.-
Because obviously his team knew about this and never told GSL staff, so they are just as much at fault. He practiced it vs his teammate bboongbboong, obviously his teammates saw him practice it, and since it was a major build he had planned they must've known about it.
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
no that's not what he's saying... or if it is, he needs to learn to say things correctly, because there is nothing mysterious about your theory/explanation at all. he's clearly implying something else here, or he is just talking nonsense.
his team? lol why his team?
i like how the warriors-for-justice in this thread care more about it than Nestea does.. -.-
Because obviously his team knew about this and never told GSL staff, so they are just as much at fault. He practiced it vs his teammate bboongbboong, obviously his teammates saw him practice it, and since it was a major build he had planned they must've known about it.
Please find me where it says in the rules that it is the responsibility of teams to tell Gom every time a Gom-driven change appears odd.
1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
By "we do that all the time" you mean we organize retarded, overzealous witch hunts. Byun doesn't deserve that. Number 2 is not clearly the wrong decision, and you haven't proved why. Nobody in this thread has.
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
How was that an obvious bug?
Tastosis did not know it was a bug during the match. GSL official did not know it was a bug during the match. GomTV's own John posted on twitter (wrongly) that there were no neutral supply depots on Metropolis. It's been in play for weeks and no one seems to notice or care.
Of course we know NOW it was a bug, but how was it obvious before the match?
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
How was that an obvious bug?
Tastosis did not know it was a bug during the match. GSL official did not know it was a bug during the match. GomTV's own John posted on twitter (wrongly) that there were no neutral supply depots on Metropolis. It's been in play for weeks and no one seems to notice or care.
Of course we know NOW it was a bug, but how was it obvious before the match?
I mean that if you knew there was no supply depot there, you would know it was a bug and that you should report it. It's hard to spot, but obviously a bug once you do spot it. Also, to the other poster above me, by "we do that all the time" I was referring to our attempts to communicate to Blizzard about things in the game we consider broken.
And now, he realizes that he can do the bunker block....mysteriously.....and doesn't say ANYTHING, takes advantage of it, and Nestea loses.
mysteriously? are you trying to imply that he slipped the mapmaker a $20 bill or what?
No he's saying that byun is at fault for not informing GSL of this despite knowing that every GSL map had to have a supply depot that made such a block impossible for balance reasons. It's basically the same as finding that one of the GSL maps accidently has marines doing 2 more base damage and not telling someone, it is not intended and gives him an unfair advantage. We can guess as to weather or not nestea would've won or lost the series if the bunker block hadn't happened, but the fact still remains that it did happen and byun knew about it ahead of time and didn't tell officials about a flaw in the map. Very shady of byun and made me lose a lot of respect for him and his team.
no that's not what he's saying... or if it is, he needs to learn to say things correctly, because there is nothing mysterious about your theory/explanation at all. he's clearly implying something else here, or he is just talking nonsense.
his team? lol why his team?
i like how the warriors-for-justice in this thread care more about it than Nestea does.. -.-
Because obviously his team knew about this and never told GSL staff, so they are just as much at fault. He practiced it vs his teammate bboongbboong, obviously his teammates saw him practice it, and since it was a major build he had planned they must've known about it.
Ahahahaha, please, keep making more of a fool of yourself. It's endlessly amusing.
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
How was that an obvious bug?
Tastosis did not know it was a bug during the match. GSL official did not know it was a bug during the match. GomTV's own John posted on twitter (wrongly) that there were no neutral supply depots on Metropolis. It's been in play for weeks and no one seems to notice or care.
Of course we know NOW it was a bug, but how was it obvious before the match?
I mean that if you knew there was no supply depot there, you would know it was a bug and that you should report it. It's hard to spot, but obviously a bug once you do spot it. Also, to the other poster above me, by "we do that all the time" I was referring to our attempts to communicate to Blizzard about things in the game we consider broken.
How was it obviously a bug once you spot it though?
Neutral supply depot is not required map feature - there is no neutral depot on ladder map, and T doesn't have 100% win rate against Zerg. In fact, they doesn't haven't 50% win rate against Zerg. It is arguable that the neutral depot should be removed with the Queen range buff. It is especially true for Metropolis, where T have 33% win rate against Zerg. The change was done to GomTV's official version.
It is plausible to assume that Gom wanted to balance the map a bit and removed the depots, it might be odd that there was no communication, but I doubt their communication protocol is on par with USMC. If it was not obviously a bug to GomTV's own John even after he saw the match, how was it obvious to players before it?
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
How was that an obvious bug?
Tastosis did not know it was a bug during the match. GSL official did not know it was a bug during the match. GomTV's own John posted on twitter (wrongly) that there were no neutral supply depots on Metropolis. It's been in play for weeks and no one seems to notice or care.
Of course we know NOW it was a bug, but how was it obvious before the match?
I mean that if you knew there was no supply depot there, you would know it was a bug and that you should report it. It's hard to spot, but obviously a bug once you do spot it. Also, to the other poster above me, by "we do that all the time" I was referring to our attempts to communicate to Blizzard about things in the game we consider broken.
everyone in his post that he referenced (except maybe the players) was aware that the supply depot was not there, and they were confused. in the LR there was a massive argument that seemed to be split pretty 50-50 about whether it was supposed to be there or not. i mean, Byun might have known that it was a bug, but you can't just assume that he knew it was a bug and not a simple map-change.
also, even if he knew it was a bug, that doesn't mean he shouldn't use it. imo, bugs/glitches in e-sports should be fair play as long as it's not caused by the user (maphack of some sort).
This hate for Byun is just such bs. If the map changes you prepare for that map, Byun even said he looked at multiple recent games to confirm the change aka anyone could have seen it and probably should have in preparation for a round of 8 game. The fact that he openly admitted his prior research shows neither he nor his team feels that it was a shady move, which it wasnt. No one is brining up the fact that Nestea had serious botched control on one of his queens at the top of the ramp allowing it to die, which was critical in his failure to hold the rush. The fact that both Nestea and his team accepted the loss without complaint should have been the end of this thread.
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
How was that an obvious bug?
Tastosis did not know it was a bug during the match. GSL official did not know it was a bug during the match. GomTV's own John posted on twitter (wrongly) that there were no neutral supply depots on Metropolis. It's been in play for weeks and no one seems to notice or care.
Of course we know NOW it was a bug, but how was it obvious before the match?
I mean that if you knew there was no supply depot there, you would know it was a bug and that you should report it. It's hard to spot, but obviously a bug once you do spot it. Also, to the other poster above me, by "we do that all the time" I was referring to our attempts to communicate to Blizzard about things in the game we consider broken.
How was it obviously a bug once you spot it though?
Neutral supply depot is not required map feature - there is no neutral depot on ladder map, and T doesn't have 100% win rate against Zerg. In fact, they doesn't haven't 50% win rate against Zerg. It is arguable that the neutral depot should be removed with the Queen range buff. It is especially true for Metropolis, where T have 33% win rate against Zerg. The change was done to GomTV's official version.
It is plausible to assume that Gom wanted to balance the map a bit and removed the depots, it might be odd that there was no communication, but I doubt their communication protocol is on par with USMC. If it was not obviously a bug to GomTV's own John even after he saw the match, how was it obvious to players?
Because every other GSL map with that kind of ramp has the depots? Let me know if i'm wrong about that but I believe that's the case.
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
How was that an obvious bug?
Tastosis did not know it was a bug during the match. GSL official did not know it was a bug during the match. GomTV's own John posted on twitter (wrongly) that there were no neutral supply depots on Metropolis. It's been in play for weeks and no one seems to notice or care.
Of course we know NOW it was a bug, but how was it obvious before the match?
I mean that if you knew there was no supply depot there, you would know it was a bug and that you should report it. It's hard to spot, but obviously a bug once you do spot it. Also, to the other poster above me, by "we do that all the time" I was referring to our attempts to communicate to Blizzard about things in the game we consider broken.
How was it obviously a bug once you spot it though?
Neutral supply depot is not required map feature - there is no neutral depot on ladder map, and T doesn't have 100% win rate against Zerg. In fact, they doesn't haven't 50% win rate against Zerg. It is arguable that the neutral depot should be removed with the Queen range buff. It is especially true for Metropolis, where T have 33% win rate against Zerg. The change was done to GomTV's official version.
It is plausible to assume that Gom wanted to balance the map a bit and removed the depots, it might be odd that there was no communication, but I doubt their communication protocol is on par with USMC. If it was not obviously a bug to GomTV's own John even after he saw the match, how was it obvious to players?
Because every other GSL map with that kind of ramp has the depots? Let me know if i'm wrong about that but I believe that's the case.
As it pointed out multiple time already in this thread, Dual Sight and Crossfire didn't have supply depots.
I doubt blizzard would call this a 'bug' in the game so it would be nice if people stop refering to it missing as a 'bug'. A bug is a GLITCH, an unintended design flaw made by the developers. In this case, a USER CREATED neutral supply depot was not in place on the map. It missing is not a bug but an INTENDED(whether known or not) edit. BLocking off a ramp is not a bug, it is aprt of the game, it can happen on the official blizzard ladder, it can happen in official games where there is no neutral supply depot. If anything, the neutral supply depot is the 'bug' and shouldnt even be there in the first place as it was crated to dampen down zerg tears, tears that no longer exist. All this doesnt change the fact that nestea played like ass.
isn't there a glitch in BW that you can make units go places they shouldn't be able to go to? didn't Flash use it in his most recent OSL match?
also:
maybe Byun thought they patched only that map. completely plausible, especially considering people who work for GOM were confused after the fact. you're just assuming based on knowledge you now have (knowledge that Byun had no access to BTW) that it was "obvious".
it wasn't "obvious" to a lot of people that it was a bug, hence the creation of this thread... the only reason they made this thread (im assuming) is because A LOT of people were pissed at GOM because they thought GOM had intentionally changed the map and not told anyone about it or were just straight up confused about it.
There are multiple reasons why GSL might have decided to remove it but it doesn't explain why Prime and Byun never asked the question in the first place.
On July 14 2012 05:17 Prime Directive wrote: There are multiple reasons why GSL might have decided to remove it but it doesn't explain why Prime and Byun never asked the question in the first place.
I prefer to ask why they were the only ones who noticed it was missing.
On July 14 2012 05:10 stratmatt wrote: I doubt blizzard would call this a 'bug' in the game so it would be nice if people stop refering to it missing as a 'bug'. A bug is a GLITCH, an unintended design flaw made by the developers. In this case, a USER CREATED neutral supply depot was not in place on the map. It missing is not a bug but an INTENDED(whether known or not) edit. BLocking off a ramp is not a bug, it is aprt of the game, it can happen on the official blizzard ladder, it can happen in official games where there is no neutral supply depot. If anything, the neutral supply depot is the 'bug' and shouldnt even be there in the first place as it was crated to dampen down zerg tears, tears that no longer exist. All this doesnt change the fact that nestea played like ass.
It's OK if you use "bug" as a general sense, as in an error in the system. Remember the original of "bug" been referred to computer error was due to that a bug caused a system failure, which is more like saying "shit happens" than your definition.
Funny how some people blame Byun for "abusing a bug" when he himself says he checked several VODs to confirm that the depot was indeed removed. Since several games was played and no one complained (or the depot was put in again) wouldn't it be pretty normal to assume that it was an intended change? The fact is Byun actually studied the map and now people are angry that he did. Ridiculous.
On July 14 2012 05:17 Prime Directive wrote: There are multiple reasons why GSL might have decided to remove it but it doesn't explain why Prime and Byun never asked the question in the first place.
Maybe they should, but it was not their job to ask everything Gom did. They might assumed it was properly done and didn't bother. Do YOU question every odd thing your boss do at work?
On July 14 2012 05:17 Prime Directive wrote: There are multiple reasons why GSL might have decided to remove it but it doesn't explain why Prime and Byun never asked the question in the first place.
you gotta be trolling at this point dude. if there are multiple good reasons why GOM would have changed the map, it wasn't obvious to almost anyone what exactly had happened, and there is very good reason to suggest that neither Prime nor Byun knew it was a bug... then why would they have thought to ask?
you literally explained why they never asked IN THAT POST. they probably never asked because they trust GOM can do their jobs. and that STILL doesn't mean that they are required in any way to report it.
On July 14 2012 04:50 Prime Directive wrote: 1. Report the obvious bug to GSL so that the depot can be reinstated as it should be 2. Keep the knowledge to yourself and abuse the bug to attempt to win a round vs. Nestea
Number 2 is clearly the wrong decision for a professional to make. At least one that wants to be considered a professional. GSL messed up, but the fans and players should help keep things like this from happening. We do that all the time here on TL.
Considering he didn't break any rules and it got him a win, I'd say #2 is the absolute right decision for a professional to make. I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise. He's paid to win Starcraft 2 games, not babysit GOM and make sure their tournament is being run properly. It lies with the map makers and GOM to find these mistakes, not the players. The absolute last line of defense was NesTea/IM when he noticed the bug was going to affect him adversely, but it really shouldn't make it that far.
On July 14 2012 05:20 Kerence wrote: Funny how some people blame Byun for "abusing a bug" when he himself says he checked several VODs to confirm that the depot was indeed removed. Since several games was played and no one complained (or the depot was put in again) wouldn't it be pretty normal to assume that it was an intended change? The fact is Byun actually studied the map and now people are angry that he did. Ridiculous.
I was cheering for Nestea btw.
People blaming byun for this are basically dumb and not worth paying attention to for exactly the reasons you are describing. I'm not even sure why this thread is even open anymore, there is nothing worth discussing anymore.
On July 14 2012 05:20 Kerence wrote: Funny how some people blame Byun for "abusing a bug" when he himself says he checked several VODs to confirm that the depot was indeed removed. Since several games was played and no one complained (or the depot was put in again) wouldn't it be pretty normal to assume that it was an intended change? The fact is Byun actually studied the map and now people are angry that he did. Ridiculous.
I was cheering for Nestea btw.
People blaming byun for this are basically dumb and not worth paying attention to for exactly the reasons you are describing. I'm not even sure why this thread is even open anymore, there is nothing worth discussing anymore.
Couldn't agree more. Mod can close this now. What should be duscussed is already discussed.
1. GOM/mapmaker messed up. It is primarily at their fault. 2. Part of the community feels Byun should have reported GOM instead of taking advantage of missing depot. 3. From number of posts, probably more than half of the community feels Byun did nothing wrong. He merely tried to win a match as a progamer. 4. Opinion on whether there should be a neutral depot at ramp or not is divided between Zerg players and Terran players. 5. Regardless of the side you take, community agrees this kind of incident shouldn't happen again.
I don't know if we can add anything to this exploding thread. It did its job.
Some thing should be added in the op about spewing "Opinion" and rather to use the purpose of this thread. Respect or disrespect for ppl who involved to show the feelings of the community or call for action of some sort. Not that I have any of those on mind but thats why this thread serves a purpose.
Like stating byun is a bad guy or not a bad guy-doesnt matter.
Saying nestea would have lost any way- doesnt matter
Facts are there was a bug in the game, it caused a loss and the series is tainted except im and nestea took the loss which puts an end to it all. Personally I would like more statemtns from byun and gom officials reguarding issue cause it really is horrible what happend and ppl defending byun saying he isnt shady, keep in mind he did match fix and here is the transcript between him and coca after coca was up 5 base to two , aroudn 50 suppy to 160. The conversation ensues and coca forfiets a won game for byun to play another and win to get code a seed.
Byun: fuck fuck Coca: Trap card! Byun: I got dominated fuck Coca: You have to put down a planetary. I have 3 expansions. Byun: No it's not that. Mutas Byun: Leave fuck fuck fuck Coca: I surrender Byun: Let's go to a third game Coca: ok. gg
On July 14 2012 06:20 PastaJoePolice wrote: Some thing should be added in the op about spewing "Opinion" and rather to use the purpose of this thread. Respect or disrespect for ppl who involved to show the feelings of the community or call for action of some sort. Not that I have any of those on mind but thats why this thread serves a purpose.
Like stating byun is a bad guy or not a bad guy-doesnt matter.
Saying nestea would have lost any way- doesnt matter
Facts are there was a bug in the game, it caused a loss and the series is tainted except im and nestea took the loss which puts an end to it all. Personally I would like more statemtns from byun and gom officials reguarding issue cause it really is horrible what happend and ppl defending byun saying he isnt shady, keep in mind he did match fix and here is the transcript between him and coca after coca was up 5 base to two , aroudn 50 suppy to 160. The conversation ensues and coca forfiets a won game for byun to play another and win to get code a seed.
Byun: fuck fuck Coca: Trap card! Byun: I got dominated fuck Coca: You have to put down a planetary. I have 3 expansions. Byun: No it's not that. Mutas Byun: Leave fuck fuck fuck Coca: I surrender Byun: Let's go to a third game Coca: ok. gg
You should add this to your list:
What happened between Byun and Coca - doesn't matter
^Wasnt an attack. Its jsut the past history of a guy who ppl are complaining about doing osme thing shadey, Rather then have pointless opinions based off emotion and no fact I thought i'd throw taht in there, as evidence for a claim does... Trust me, Im on neithers side, Im a tea fan and sad but gom really messed up on this one. I really would like more statements made on situation from players and gom officials.
On July 14 2012 06:20 PastaJoePolice wrote: Some thing should be added in the op about spewing "Opinion" and rather to use the purpose of this thread. Respect or disrespect for ppl who involved to show the feelings of the community or call for action of some sort. Not that I have any of those on mind but thats why this thread serves a purpose.
Like stating byun is a bad guy or not a bad guy-doesnt matter.
Saying nestea would have lost any way- doesnt matter
Facts are there was a bug in the game, it caused a loss and the series is tainted except im and nestea took the loss which puts an end to it all. Personally I would like more statemtns from byun and gom officials reguarding issue cause it really is horrible what happend and ppl defending byun saying he isnt shady, keep in mind he did match fix and here is the transcript between him and coca after coca was up 5 base to two , aroudn 50 suppy to 160. The conversation ensues and coca forfiets a won game for byun to play another and win to get code a seed.
Byun: fuck fuck Coca: Trap card! Byun: I got dominated fuck Coca: You have to put down a planetary. I have 3 expansions. Byun: No it's not that. Mutas Byun: Leave fuck fuck fuck Coca: I surrender Byun: Let's go to a third game Coca: ok. gg
What does the Coca/Byun incident have to do with this?
IF byun know, shouldnt nestea know as well? but thats beside the point, you're all just hating on byun for the sake of hating. im a nestea fan, but it is clear byun deserved to win this series
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
On July 14 2012 06:38 -Switch- wrote: It's Gom's fault. Byun has nothing to do with it. Gom loaded the map... anything goes once in game. Period.
..and IM didn't complain until after the SECOND game, therefore their own fault (along with NesTea's) as they kind of acknowledged the strategy by not saying anything.
If NesTea or IM would've left an complaint immediately after or paused the game when it happened there would have been a rematch.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
On July 14 2012 06:38 -Switch- wrote: It's Gom's fault. Byun has nothing to do with it. Gom loaded the map... anything goes once in game. Period.
..and IM didn't complain until after the SECOND game, therefore their own fault (along with NesTea's) as they kind of acknowledged the strategy by not saying anything.
If NesTea or IM would've left an complaint immediately after or paused the game when it happened there would have been a rematch.
I dont think there should have been a rematch even if nestea paused and complained. Its a legitimate map that has been used in other recent gsl games. Forcing a rematch would have been unfair to byun. Once again, nestea completely BLEW the defense. He scouted it, he let both bunkers start, he pulled his drones away from an scv with 5 hp, he lost a queen and other units needlessly. Byun won fair and square, even though I know its hard for a few people to understand.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
There is NO RULE stating you cant block a ramp with bunkers. Find me the rule and Ill agree with you. Byun played perfectly fair and won straight up. Just admit it already.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
There is NO RULE stating you cant block a ramp with bunkers. Find me the rule and Ill agree with you. Byun played perfectly fair and won straight up. Just admit it already.
Ok maybe my english is really bad or you didn't read my first sentence in which I wrote that it wasn't against rules.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
There is NO RULE stating you cant block a ramp with bunkers. Find me the rule and Ill agree with you. Byun played perfectly fair and won straight up. Just admit it already.
Ok maybe my english is really bad or you didn't read my first sentence in which I wrote that it wasn't against rules.
Byun's PoV
1. This is first map, i'll watch GSL/GSLT this season and see how it went. 2. Notices that in all 7+ games on this map, no depot exists. He watches them all to be sure it wasn't a bug/unintended. 3. He was playing on correct version of the map on ladder iirc. Whilst Nestea obviously didn't when playing custom games. 4. Since he saw so many games and didn't think it was a bug, he prepared a strat around it. 5. Byun prospers.
He did everything expected of him as a progamer, and more. He is definetely not the first to notice, and if he is, then the KR progamers are lacking in a few areas (awareness of map mechanics). He is not to blame. People stop flaming him. Im not even going to get into who's fault/etc, its irrelevant at this point and its been discussed to death.
GOM issued a statement. Issue that arose has now been fixed. Please leave it be with the Byun hating, he did nothing wrong.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
I agree that the fault lies with gom, a bunker rush isn't rocket science and he would've won the match either way. But can't you see why I don't think that Byun gave a good example with his behaviour? If not I will just stop arguing.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
But undoubtedly he'd practised that a million times, and not practised anything else for that map. Imagine they put a neutral depot where the natural should be placed, would you still say "well 15 hatch isn't exactly rocket science for Nestea, he can just play a standard game off a pool first opening!"? of course not!
In fact, it would be equally unfair if Gom had told byun it was going to be a version of the map without a neutral depot, and then made him play the game on one with the neutral depot.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
I agree that the fault lies with gom, a bunker rush isn't rocket science and he would've won the match either way. But can't you see why I don't think that Byun gave a good example with his behaviour? If not I will just stop arguing.
No? Because it's not a behavior its a strategy. I'm loathe to bring up his incident with CoCa, but that was an example of bad professional behavior. Pulling off a 11/11 rax with a bunker block is cheesy and not fun to watch, but is a valid strategy. GOM put a stop to it by adding the depot to improve viewer experience, but it doesn't make it any less valid, and if the depot goes away, he has every right to do it.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Thing is, Byun didn't break any rules. Your metaphor doesn't apply at all. A better metaphor would be lawyer abusing a legal loophole or something. Makes for a good lawyer, not a scumbag or anything.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
But undoubtedly he'd practised that a million times, and not practised anything else for that map. Imagine they put a neutral depot where the natural should be placed, would you still say "well 15 hatch isn't exactly rocket science for Nestea, he can just play a standard game off a pool first opening!"? of course not!
Where do you get off saying that Byun "undoubtedly" practiced a certain way? Do you live in the Prime house? You're just making shit up. There's no doubt he planned to do the block, but does that really require practice? You don't think he practiced other strategies as well in the event that the depot was included? 15 Hatch is a standard opening, while a 11/11 bunker block is a calculated cheese. You don't "practice" 15 Hatch the same way you don't "practice" a cheese a platinum player can pull off.
EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying he definitely didn't practice either, I just find it hard to believe that he put all his eggs in the "GOM screwing the map up" basket.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
I agree that the fault lies with gom, a bunker rush isn't rocket science and he would've won the match either way. But can't you see why I don't think that Byun gave a good example with his behaviour? If not I will just stop arguing.
No? Because it's not a behavior its a strategy. I'm loathe to bring up his incident with CoCa, but that was an example of bad professional behavior. Pulling off a 11/11 rax with a bunker block is cheesy and not fun to watch, but is a valid strategy. GOM put a stop to it by adding the depot to improve viewer experience, but it doesn't make it any less valid, and if the depot goes away, he has every right to do it.
He's paid to win games, not set examples.
I'm not referring to his 11/11 bunker ramp block with behaviour, you just don't see my point, let's just stop here.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Byun saw that a map didn't have depots at the ramp. He checked several VODs to verify his information. He saw an opportunity to bunker block. What is wrong about this?
It's not wrong in the sense that it's against rules, it's just a matter of principles or a question of honour in my opinion. If he noticed on the spot and decided to use it OK, but he was the first to notice the mistake and then prepared a strat, using a mistake on the map. If gom would've done their job the map should've been fiexed till the match against nestea and Byun's training would've been fruitless. Everybody is at fault here, even Nestea for not noticing the mistake during training (maybe he trained on the correct version) and ofcourse gom, but Byun had the chance to fix the mistake but instead decided to abuse it.
To say that Byun's training would have been fruitless if GOM had used the correct version of the map is a little silly. It's an 11/11 Rax with a ramp block...not exactly rocket science. If they had loaded up the map and the depot was there, he would have played a standard game, and by all indications from Games 2 and 3, would have smacked NesTea anyways.
The fault likes with GOM and the map makers for not noticing the bug, not with Byun for winning a professional SC2 match, which is after all what he is paid to do.
A minor quibble that keeps getting lost is, they *did* play on the *correct* version of the map. It's just, that version had an unintended balance change. That's why people are blaming the map-maker (and Gom by extension).
A lot of people find things about maps that they exploit, which are subsequently edited out in later versions.
I don't believe the GSL allows that walled off marine on Entombed Valley anymore does it? After Jinro double bunkered Idra's ramp on Metal, GSL added an unbuildable hex to the bottom of the ramp (precursor to the neutral supply depot). After countless terrans dropped tanks on the low ground between the main and third on Tal'Darim Alter, the low ground was just removed. Then after Frozen won a game by blinking from the 3rd to the main, they widened the space to disallow it. These are just off the top of my head.
Not to mention that no one ever had a problem with Crossfire or Dual Sight lacking neutral supply depots during their entire usage... (check the Blizzard Cup finals between MMA and DRG to see the missing depots for yourself).
Or the fact that you could double bunker (or triple pylon) the chokes on TDA and Bel'Shir back when they were in play.
On July 12 2012 22:20 Oakstream wrote: how did it cost him the game?
Byun did the super cheesy two-bunker wall-off at the bottom of Nestea's main ramp.
Pretty much every tourney map has a neutral supply depot in place there to prevent this strat from being used.
Nothing cheesy about it. Byun decided to two-rax and by the time his units arrived at Nestea's natural he had some minerals floating as is normal with that build during that time. So he could either invest them into his attack or complete the wall in his base and expand afterwards. But since he realized that he can wall of the ramp and that his opponent was not blocking it, he took the right decision for an autowin.
tl;dr: the two rax might have been a bit cheesy, but walling off was just a right decision.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Except snatching her purse is a crime and prohibited by law. Not reporting a possible bug to GOM as a player is not against rules as far as I know.
"A keen eye for opportunity" OUTSIDE RULES is severely punished. "A keen eye for opportunity" WITHIN RULES is even encouraged as a professional in any fields.
On July 14 2012 07:37 CeriseCherries wrote: i think the example here to use is tax evasion by the rich. illegal? no. paying fair share and doing whats best for society? LOL NOPE.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Except snatching her purse is a crime and prohibited by law. Not reporting a possible bug to GOM as a player is not against rules as far as I know.
"A keen eye for opportunity" OUTSIDE RULES is severely punished. "A keen eye for opportunity" WITHIN RULES is even encouraged as a professional in any fields.
There is a difference there.
Yes it's a bad example, but you get the point. Can't really think of a better mataphor right now.
On July 14 2012 07:37 CeriseCherries wrote: i think the example here to use is tax evasion by the rich. illegal? no. paying fair share and doing whats best for society? LOL NOPE.
I don't see what this has to do with what happened in the game at all or brings to the discussion.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Except snatching her purse is a crime and prohibited by law. Not reporting a possible bug to GOM as a player is not against rules as far as I know.
"A keen eye for opportunity" OUTSIDE RULES is severely punished. "A keen eye for opportunity" WITHIN RULES is even encouraged as a professional in any fields.
There is a difference there.
Yes it's a bad example, but you get the point. Can't really think of a better mataphor right now.
I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
On July 12 2012 22:20 Oakstream wrote: how did it cost him the game?
Byun did the super cheesy two-bunker wall-off at the bottom of Nestea's main ramp.
Pretty much every tourney map has a neutral supply depot in place there to prevent this strat from being used.
Nothing cheesy about it. Byun decided to two-rax and by the time his units arrived at Nestea's natural he had some minerals floating as is normal with that build during that time. So he could either invest them into his attack or complete the wall in his base and expand afterwards. But since he realized that he can wall of the ramp and that his opponent was not blocking it, he took the right decision for an autowin.
tl;dr: the two rax might have been a bit cheesy, but walling off was just a right decision.
He brought 2 SCV's to do the wall and hid the 2nd SCV, it was cheesy and planned and not a spur of the moment "oh I have minerals, I guess I will bunker his ramp". Also, even if nestea did kill the 2nd SCV, it wouldnt have changed a thing. The 2nd SCV is not THAT important once you get the bunkers going, let alone when the bunker is at 50% or greater... it will finish regardless.
As for not noticing it beforehand to block it: The only maps he really plays on for the GSL are maps that have the depot there. Once you dont encounter something for an extremely long period of time, it just doesnt occur to you that something is amiss. You just naturally ignore it.
His play was absolutely atrocious for the rest of the series, I dont think that byun played too spectacularly, just that nestea was off the entire day. Personally, I think he was effected by game 1, but by how much nobody will know. Nobody can doubt that his decisionmaking was exceedingly bad though.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Except snatching her purse is a crime and prohibited by law. Not reporting a possible bug to GOM as a player is not against rules as far as I know.
"A keen eye for opportunity" OUTSIDE RULES is severely punished. "A keen eye for opportunity" WITHIN RULES is even encouraged as a professional in any fields.
There is a difference there.
How about this: You see somebody drop a $100 bill on the ground, you know it is theirs but they dont realize they dropped it. "A keen eye for opportunity" would take it and not say another word. Somebody else would let them know they just dropped a $100 bill on the ground.
Forgive me for not reading the first 37 pages, so someone may have said this before, but this is TERRIBLE for NesTea. All he had to do was one game out of the first three maps and he would have been able to play on Atlantis Spaceship and then Whirlwind -- two heavily Zerg favored maps. Losing that first game that he probably would have won (considering the circumstances) changed everything.
People hating on ByuN can just forget it. He failed his 2 rax and was looking for any way to win. He happened to notice (either then or earlier) that there was no neutral depot and took advantage of it. Anything it takes to win. I'm sure he was prepared to replay the game if they asked him to immediately, knowing the map version was incorrect.
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one wjo is involved in match fixing? That would make esports scene a joke.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up. lol and you ninja edit it too to make it look like you weren't making shit up.
On July 14 2012 05:30 monkybone wrote: There is no player obligation to inform GOM about this. It's GOM's responsibility alone, Byun simply profited from their mistake. If anything it shows a keen eye for opportunity.
Lmfao "a keen eye for opportunity"... really? Well a scumbag who assaults a helpless women and snatches her purse also has a keen eye for opportunity. Just an extreme example, to show that some things are still wrong even if there is the "opportunity", I am not saying that Byun is a scumbag or criminal or something like that.
Except snatching her purse is a crime and prohibited by law. Not reporting a possible bug to GOM as a player is not against rules as far as I know.
"A keen eye for opportunity" OUTSIDE RULES is severely punished. "A keen eye for opportunity" WITHIN RULES is even encouraged as a professional in any fields.
There is a difference there.
How about this: You see somebody drop a $100 bill on the ground, you know it is theirs but they dont realize they dropped it. "A keen eye for opportunity" would take it and not say another word. Somebody else would let them know they just dropped a $100 bill on the ground.
also technically illegal.
how about this: stop coming up with ridiculous metaphors that have nothing to do with what happened and just say what happened. GOM fucked up on their maps and Nestea got bunker-rushed and then roflstomped. Nestea was offered a regame and said no. end of story.
Good call by Nestea to not demand a regame, good for gomtv I mean.
On the one side there is Nestea, who lost the game because the map was changed without note. On the other side there is Byun, who noticed the change, and tailored a winning strategy for it, after he concluded that the change was legit, as there were multiple games played on it without official reaction from gom.
Gom cannot make a decision without majorly screwing with one of the players, so good for them Nestea did not file a regame.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Byun was involved in a game where it was intentionally thrown, which is a form of matchfixing. If you go to wikipedia and search "thrown game" you get redirected to match fixing. Just because it wasnt planned before the game started doesnt make it not match fixing.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time. EDIT2:
also technically illegal.
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
No. Byun kept asking coca to leave the game using tons of vulgarities in order to let himself advance coz there was a code a spot on the line and coca was already in code s. That is why i am not surprised to see that he is the one who abused the mp even though he knew it was a bugbefore the match
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
No. Byun kept asking coca to leave the game using tons of vulgarities in order to let himself advance coz there was a code a spot on the line and coca was already in code s. That is why i am not surprised to see that he is the one who abused the mp even though he knew it was a bugbefore the match
he asked coca to leave once. there was no code a spot on the line at all. coca wanted more vsT practice, so they went to a third game for that.
you're just a prime hater
On July 14 2012 08:02 mrjpark wrote: Forgive me for not reading the first 37 pages, so someone may have said this before, but this is TERRIBLE for NesTea. All he had to do was one game out of the first three maps and he would have been able to play on Atlantis Spaceship and then Whirlwind -- two heavily Zerg favored maps. Losing that first game that he probably would have won (considering the circumstances) changed everything.
nestea got so badly smacked around in the next few games that most people agree that byun would have won the series anyway, bunker rush or no
this thread needs to be closed, we are getting no new input
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
A game was intentionally thrown for a spot into code S and its "stretching the definition of match-fixing", while picking up $100 off the ground is "technically illegal"? Give me a break. Yes, it was a ridiculously dumb mistake, but it was still match fixing.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
A game was intentionally thrown for a spot into code S and its "stretching the definition of match-fixing", while picking up $100 off the ground is "technically illegal"? Give me a break. Yes, it was a ridiculously dumb mistake, but it was still match fixing.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
A game was intentionally thrown for a spot into code S and its "stretching the definition of match-fixing", while picking up $100 off the ground is "technically illegal"? Give me a break. Yes, it was a ridiculously dumb mistake, but it was still match fixing.
1) there was no Code S spot on the line. 2) what the fuck does him being punished for asking a buddy to regame have to do with your ridiculous metaphor? 3) it was match-fixing only in the LOOSEST sense of the word. (and not even then tbh)
get your info right before you make accusations dude.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 08:42 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 08:42 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
It doesn't actually matter what Byun did in the past. What he did with Coca was wrong because it spurned competition and was an agreement between players. This had nothing to do with Byun affecting the result by anything except his own play. Period.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 08:42 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 08:42 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
i believe the Code A seed was awarded for the KW finals PRIOR to this korean weekly, and there was no confirmation the seed was going to be awarded for THIS one. it was a one-off thing, and squirtle took the seed for GSL november.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
im not 100% on this but didn't he throw a match so a friend/ or teammate could qualify for a weekly or monthly online tourney isn't that fixing a match if i am correct?
no, he asked a friend to quit so it could go to game 3. his friend said ok and quit and they went to game 3, and his friend lost. while you could stretch the definition of "match-fixing" to it's utter extremes in order to include that, the only possible reason you would do that is to talk crap. it was a dumb mistake with zero ill intent and both him and Coca were punished rather harshly for it. calling him a matchfixer is just being stupid.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time.
didn't happen that way. IIRC there was no seed on the line whatsoever.
On July 14 2012 08:42 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:35 sc2superfan101 wrote:
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Oh Im sure byun is a honourable player when he got banned from gsl for several months.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Byun was involved in a game where it was intentionally thrown, which is a form of matchfixing. If you go to wikipedia and search "thrown game" you get redirected to match fixing. Just because it wasnt planned before the game started doesnt make it not match fixing.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time. EDIT2:
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
Okay, this is just wrong. CoCa didn't throw the game to give ByuN the seed. They were practice partners and were using the tournament as a form of practice. CoCa was in the Round of 8 for Code S, ByuN had dropped out of Code A. CoCa was about to 2-0 ByuN, when they decided it didn't really matter for CoCa since he already had a Code S spot. I forget literal wording, but I'm Korean and read the chat. ByuN was basically like "Fuck, fuck, fuck fuck. Do you wanna do a game 3?" CoCa: "Sure, why not. I don't need the seed anyway." Drama ensues. They wanted another practice game since CoCa didn't care whether or not he lost that game. Obviously, ByuN did know a seed was on the line for him, but from everything I've read, I have no reason to believe CoCa was going to drop game 3 to give ByuN the seed. They just wanted to go to a game 3. This is still match fixing and wrong, but everyone seems to think CoCa was just handing ByuN the spot.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Byun was involved in a game where it was intentionally thrown, which is a form of matchfixing. If you go to wikipedia and search "thrown game" you get redirected to match fixing. Just because it wasnt planned before the game started doesnt make it not match fixing.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time. EDIT2:
also technically illegal.
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
Okay, this is just wrong. CoCa didn't throw the game to give ByuN the seed. They were practice partners and were using the tournament as a form of practice. CoCa was in the Round of 8 for Code S, ByuN had dropped out of Code A. CoCa was about to 2-0 ByuN, when they decided it didn't really matter for CoCa since he already had a Code S spot. I forget literal wording, but I'm Korean and read the chat. ByuN was basically like "Fuck, fuck, fuck fuck. Do you wanna do a game 3?" CoCa: "Sure, why not. I don't need the seed anyway." Drama ensues. They wanted another practice game since CoCa didn't care whether or not he lost that game. Obviously, ByuN did know a seed was on the line for him, but from everything I've read, I have no reason to believe CoCa was going to drop game 3 to give ByuN the seed. They just wanted to go to a game 3. This is still match fixing and wrong, but everyone seems to think CoCa was just handing ByuN the spot.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
coca didn't even say he didn't need the seed, and byun wouldn't think there was a seed on the line, because there WAS NO SEED!!!!!!!
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
how is taking someone elses money without their consent illegal? i'm gonna let you figure that one out...
or here, walk up to a police station, go inside, pull a $20 bill out of your pocket, tell them that you saw a guy drop it, and picked it up, but you aren't there to give it back and report it, no, you're there to take it. see if they let you walk out with that $20.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Byun was involved in a game where it was intentionally thrown, which is a form of matchfixing. If you go to wikipedia and search "thrown game" you get redirected to match fixing. Just because it wasnt planned before the game started doesnt make it not match fixing.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time. EDIT2:
also technically illegal.
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
Okay, this is just wrong. CoCa didn't throw the game to give ByuN the seed. They were practice partners and were using the tournament as a form of practice. CoCa was in the Round of 8 for Code S, ByuN had dropped out of Code A. CoCa was about to 2-0 ByuN, when they decided it didn't really matter for CoCa since he already had a Code S spot. I forget literal wording, but I'm Korean and read the chat. ByuN was basically like "Fuck, fuck, fuck fuck. Do you wanna do a game 3?" CoCa: "Sure, why not. I don't need the seed anyway." Drama ensues. They wanted another practice game since CoCa didn't care whether or not he lost that game. Obviously, ByuN did know a seed was on the line for him, but from everything I've read, I have no reason to believe CoCa was going to drop game 3 to give ByuN the seed. They just wanted to go to a game 3. This is still match fixing and wrong, but everyone seems to think CoCa was just handing ByuN the spot.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
omg, can we please not try to explain what happened when we don't know what happened? okay, this just feeds the misinformation. let people who know what happened explain what happened.
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
how is taking someone elses money without their consent illegal? i'm gonna let you figure that one out...
or here, walk up to a police station, go inside, pull a $20 bill out of your pocket, tell them that you saw a guy drop it, and picked it up, but you aren't there to give it back and report it, no, you're there to take it. see if they let you walk out with that $20.
On July 14 2012 07:46 Fenrax wrote: I think Byun showed bad sportmanship there. It was legal and he took the free win over the honor and I can't blame him for that. But I think a player with a past as a match fixer should not have done abusive stuff like this. Puts him into a very bad light.
you should probably learn what matchfixing means...
On July 14 2012 08:34 MaNaVoId wrote:
On July 14 2012 08:22 Herry wrote: all the greatest players do anything they can to win, including using buildings and map terrain to gain an advantage.
end of story, Nestea lost anyway.
by saying greatest player u mean the one who shamelessly fix matches? That would make esports scene a joke.
you too. actually, no you should just straight up be punished for making shit up.
Byun was involved in a game where it was intentionally thrown, which is a form of matchfixing. If you go to wikipedia and search "thrown game" you get redirected to match fixing. Just because it wasnt planned before the game started doesnt make it not match fixing.
EDIT: CoCa threw a game to Byun so that he could get a GSL seed in code s (which Byun had just lost, and CoCa had already secured), which resulted in both players being pulled from GSL for an extended period of time. EDIT2:
also technically illegal.
How is that illegal? Your bias is showing through here.
Okay, this is just wrong. CoCa didn't throw the game to give ByuN the seed. They were practice partners and were using the tournament as a form of practice. CoCa was in the Round of 8 for Code S, ByuN had dropped out of Code A. CoCa was about to 2-0 ByuN, when they decided it didn't really matter for CoCa since he already had a Code S spot. I forget literal wording, but I'm Korean and read the chat. ByuN was basically like "Fuck, fuck, fuck fuck. Do you wanna do a game 3?" CoCa: "Sure, why not. I don't need the seed anyway." Drama ensues. They wanted another practice game since CoCa didn't care whether or not he lost that game. Obviously, ByuN did know a seed was on the line for him, but from everything I've read, I have no reason to believe CoCa was going to drop game 3 to give ByuN the seed. They just wanted to go to a game 3. This is still match fixing and wrong, but everyone seems to think CoCa was just handing ByuN the spot.
Edit: Edited for clarity.
omg, can we please not try to explain what happened when we don't know what happened? okay, this just feeds the misinformation. let people who know what happened explain what happened.
Right, and everything I've said was based on what they were willing to say. Obviously, I'm not saying I'm 100% factually correct. But people need to stop going around saying CoCa was handing ByuN the Code A seed when we have no reason to believe -- with the information we have -- that that was the case. Also, Khaldor and Wolf need to stop saying this during gsl casts, as they're just perpetuating the myth.
It's pretty hard to deny that nestea got his teeth smashed on a curb by byun in games 2 and 3. I do believe byun is one of the top Terrans in the world right now. So the only way you could argue the bunker rush changed the outcome of the series is that it affected nestea's psyche. But, I think the reasons nestea lost were due to superb attack timings and decisions from byun, rather than silly mistakes from nestea.
Why is this still going on? Official statement by GOM, no rematch (which if there was one would have been a farce of a competition in my eyes, considering how badly NesTea got stomped in games 2 and 3). I've already posted, Byun noticed the change and tailored a strategy to it which means NesTea certainly had the time to notice the change. Grow up, in professional sports people will go as far as they can within the rules (let alone outside of the rules) to win.
I dont wana have to post this again ecpsecially in this light but people are arguing over the match fixing innident . It was improvised on the spot, byun pressured coca in to leaving and out of social politness coca left, costinghim his career which is why I always felt funny about byun. Heres the cono translated.
Byun: fuck fuck Coca: Trap card! Byun: I got dominated fuck Coca: You have to put down a planetary. I have 3 expansions. Byun: No it's not that. Mutas Byun: Leave fuck fuck fuck Coca: I surrender Byun: Let's go to a third game Coca: ok. gg *Coca leaves game*
Actaully the op should add this to the thread in highlights.
Byun: fuck fuck Coca: Trap card! Byun: I got dominated fuck Coca: You have to put down a planetary. I have 3 expansions. Byun: No it's not that. Mutas Byun: Leave fuck fuck fuck Coca: I surrender Byun: Let's go to a third game Coca: ok. gg *Coca leaves game*
Regardless of everything, my main point in my original post was that Atlantis Spaceship and Whirlwind are heavily Zerg favored. Even in Entombed, NesTea was actually super ahead, he just had no idea ByuN was able to afford a siege line like that after losing half his economy a couple minutes beforehand. I guess it's the weakness of the mass ling style. At some point, you have to trade for better units. If you can't do it efficiently, then you're kinda screwed since you've been spending all your larva on lings.
But seriously. NesTea scouted the 2 rax, prepared for one with a neutral depot since that's what he's been practicing for. And then at the last second probably notices "Oh, fuck. There's no neutral supply." And then gg. If it isn't for that, I have no reason to believe ByuN would win that game. At that point, NesTea is guaranteed a shot to even up the series (assume he gets smashed games 2-3) on Atlantis Spaceship.
The reason I'm frustrated here is because from what I'm reading, NesTea and the IM coach complained after the game was over and were denied because they didn't complain immediately. Like, I understand that you should notice something like that when you start a game. But how do you fault a player for gom's mistake? Had gom taken action then and there, there would have been a regame and everything would have been fine. Instead, they took the hard line and now it's too late to do anything about it. Of course NesTea won't push for a regame anymore. He's already been denied and everyone knows whose fault it was.
None of my frustration is at ByuN and anyone who's angry at him really should check their emotions. I do like ByuN, and I always have. He's a fun player to watch and he's really good at the game. He noticed a couple weeks before that the supply was missing, confirmed that it was missing the whole time, and went for the win. It's gomtv's fault for not only making this mistake, but for punishing NesTea for complaining AFTER the game instead of during. Of course he's going to complain after with how they strict they are about in-game pauses. Also, the game's already over by the time he notices. I feel like the player in the booth during the gs(t)l is completely helpless and that these situations are lose-lose situations for them, and we've seen this over and over.
^ if you read the announcement, all nestea and IM asked for was for metropolis to be changed with depots, not for a regame or anything
yes, the situation sucks for nestea, but what-ifs and could-have-beens aren't going to change anything.
nestea was not super ahead in entombed; the fact that byun had that siege line is proof enough
even if the final maps are heavily zerg favoured, with byun's amazing play, he probably would have taken it too. remember that both CK and entombed are zerg favoured too (40% or something TvZ) and byun beat him handily there.
gom never punished nestea. incorrect ingame pauses only receive a warning, not a loss, so nestea definitely could have, and only he knows why he didn't
On July 14 2012 13:18 opterown wrote: incorrect ingame pauses only receive a warning, not a loss, so nestea definitely could have, and only he knows why he didn't
But this has been a trend since Open Season 1. There must be a reason why all the players are scared to pause the game and instead wave in futility, for instance.
On July 14 2012 13:18 opterown wrote: incorrect ingame pauses only receive a warning, not a loss, so nestea definitely could have, and only he knows why he didn't
But this has been a trend since Open Season 1. There must be a reason why all the players are scared to pause the game and instead wave in futility, for instance.
the only times when i've seen players wave in futility is when they're unable to pause due to equipment failure. most of the time players are perfectly happy to pause due to hotkey errors (see multiple gstl instances) so why nestea didn't pause to something arguably more important than a hotkey error escapes me. maybe he actually thought there were no depots? and the only reason IM raised the point after the SECOND game was that they weren't sure that the depot was supposed to be there either maybe
On July 14 2012 11:47 PastaJoePolice wrote: Actaully the op should add this to the thread in highlights.
Byun: fuck fuck Coca: Trap card! Byun: I got dominated fuck Coca: You have to put down a planetary. I have 3 expansions. Byun: No it's not that. Mutas Byun: Leave fuck fuck fuck Coca: I surrender Byun: Let's go to a third game Coca: ok. gg *Coca leaves game*
What Byun did before has nothing to do with this incident. Can't we just talk about the point with anonymous Player A vs Player B?
Byun vs Nestea Jjakji vs Leenock MVP vs DRG Marineking vs Symbol
Doesn't really matter who played. Byun might have made a mistake before, but that doesn't mean he is always a bad guy.
On July 14 2012 13:11 mrjpark wrote: But seriously. NesTea scouted the 2 rax, prepared for one with a neutral depot since that's what he's been practicing for. And then at the last second probably notices "Oh, fuck. There's no neutral supply." And then gg. If it isn't for that, I have no reason to believe ByuN would win that game. At that point, NesTea is guaranteed a shot to even up the series (assume he gets smashed games 2-3) on Atlantis Spaceship.
Here's where your wrong. They didn't play on the wrong map, they played on the *official* GSL version of Metropolis. So unless Nestea/IM were practicing on an older version of the map, then they should have known about the missing depot. Especially since they have MVP who so famously bunker walled Nestea on Bel'Shire, Lucky on Entombed (trapped his marine really) and bunker walled Sniper on Cloud Kingdom. Is there a team in the GSL better equiped for practicing against bunker rushes? (Maybe not, since Losira is terrible against them actually).
The reason GSL is making a statement is that the map was inadvertandly changed by the mapmaker; not that GSL played the wrong map which would be another issue entirely.
The reason I'm frustrated here is because from what I'm reading, NesTea and the IM coach complained after the game was over and were denied because they didn't complain immediately. Like, I understand that you should notice something like that when you start a game. But how do you fault a player for gom's mistake? Had gom taken action then and there, there would have been a regame and everything would have been fine. Instead, they took the hard line and now it's too late to do anything about it. Of course NesTea won't push for a regame anymore. He's already been denied and everyone knows whose fault it was.
Here's your second mistake, Nestea/IM coach didn't ask for a regame... all this is in the OP btw.
I know it's a long read, but it's worth it.*
None of my frustration is at ByuN and anyone who's angry at him really should check their emotions.
I agree with you here, I feel that most of the hate is due to 'unpopular player' cheesed 'popular player'. This is kind of Rain-Nestea all over again.
*Edit: Sorry, don't mean to direct this just at you, but there are a lot of people who are missing facts given in the OP which is getting on my nerves.
On July 14 2012 13:18 opterown wrote: incorrect ingame pauses only receive a warning, not a loss, so nestea definitely could have, and only he knows why he didn't
But this has been a trend since Open Season 1. There must be a reason why all the players are scared to pause the game and instead wave in futility, for instance.
the only times when i've seen players wave in futility is when they're unable to pause due to equipment failure. most of the time players are perfectly happy to pause due to hotkey errors (see multiple gstl instances) so why nestea didn't pause to something arguably more important than a hotkey error escapes me. maybe he actually thought there were no depots? and the only reason IM raised the point after the SECOND game was that they weren't sure that the depot was supposed to be there either maybe
That's quite likely I think. It seems like this whole situation is just a whole mess of people trusting others. GOM trusted that there hadn't been any changes reported to the map, the mapmaker trusted that his changes wouldn't cause this bug to happen, Byun trusted that this was a real change since he'd already seen it the week before and nothing had been done to it and Nestea probably wasn't sure either when it happen since it obviously was the right map (it wasn't like they picked a wrong version which would have been easier to notice). If Nestea knew there had been a mistake when the game were taking place I'm pretty sure he would have paused or have IM make a immediate objection after the game.
On July 14 2012 18:33 Reality_Seeker wrote: Surely 1 depo can't make u the perfect game... if he neded it so much he could have made 1 of his in that place.
I know Nestea is awesome but even with his vast powers he cant make a supply depot much less one in less than 3 minutes.
On July 14 2012 18:33 Reality_Seeker wrote: Surely 1 depo can't make u the perfect game... if he neded it so much he could have made 1 of his in that place.
It'd take too long to tech up to neural Byun's SCV to build a depot there.
Coca and Byun are just a bunch of young naive kids who made a mistake. They have both been taught a lesson in the form of being temporarily removed from the GSL and now they are back and have learned their lesson.
Like many of already stated, Byun saw an opportunity and took it. Nestea had more than sufficient time during and after the game to make a deal out of it, but he didn't. So if the man who lost his spot in Code S Round of 4 and potential championship can get over it, why cant we here? Or do we just like being drama queens?
Good on IM and Nestea for accepting the loss gracefully. Who knows how it would have gone with the original map and so many possible alternate timelines. Nestea is such a champ in defeat as well >.<
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Asserting that there is no solution without trying anything is genius though, I'm sure. Thanks for letting me know I'm kinda silly, I'll try to curb my thinking in the future.
Damn, NesTea. IM-LG and Nestea must have some comfortable conditions to not request a rematch. Im sure many would respect and honor Nestea for requesting one...
Poor sportmanship for Buyn to notice the problem, not telling GomTV about it and proceeding to abuse it in a tournament game. Nestea should not have let it slide.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Asserting that there is no solution without trying anything is genius though, I'm sure. Thanks for letting me know I'm kinda silly, I'll try to curb my thinking in the future.
Hey i am not the one claiming there is a solution without giving one. I never said there isn't a solution mind, just that those couple ideas you thrown in got nothing to do with the subject at hand. Is there a solution? Who knows, that is for the mapmakers/players to figure out.
1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.
2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.
3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.
4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.
5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.
Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.
1. What if the situation went other way? What if Byun watch 10+ recent vods and saw that the map doesn't have the depot, so he made a strat to take advantage of it. But on the game day, GOM suddenly patch the map and put the depot in without telling anyone. I'm asking you, can Byun pause the game and ask for fairness at that time????????
2. What makes you think that Nestea didn't notice the depot missing? Metropolis is the first map of the series, which players have to practice the most. There's a large chance that he notice the depot, but he didn't think of Byun's strat. That's why he didn't pause the game, because maybe he himself thought that no depot is a feature of the map too. Tthis is not the first time it happens, GSL Crossfire and Dual Sight also don't have depots too (you can check vods on youtube, and fyi, CrossFire and Dual Sight were in the map pool last season) So, if Byun execute a strat that Nestea didn't expect and practice for, that counts as cheesy and abusing bugs now? No. Byun outclassed and "out metagamed" Nestea, simple as that. Nestea had a chance to clean up the bunker rush, but he failed, there's nothing else to say.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.
Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.
Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
Oh, so I guess you have literally never beaten a terran on every single ladder map eh?
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.
Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
Oh, so I guess you have literally never beaten a terran on every single ladder map eh?
Hmm its a free win if Terran gets the 2 bunkers blocking the ramp.
Usually its stopped by a patrolling drone, again if you think theres a depot there you wont bother patrolling.
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote: I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.
I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush. Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed. Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.
Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
Oh, so I guess you have literally never beaten a terran on every single ladder map eh?
Hmm its a free win if Terran gets the 2 bunkers blocking the ramp.
Usually its stopped by a patrolling drone, again if you think theres a depot there you wont bother patrolling.
It's a free win if he gets both bunkers up and you have no drones on the other side, which you will if you scouted a proxy 11-11 the only reasonably early bunker rush that will hurt you-- something nestea did scout, by the way.
On July 15 2012 06:38 Peanutbutter717 wrote: If Byun knew that the depots should have been there, he should have just played in a way that assumed it was there, because it was supposed to be.
Spoken like someone who doesn't play this game for his living.
On July 15 2012 02:48 ohampatu wrote: This thread saddens me in so many ways.
1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.
2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.
3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.
4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.
5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.
Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.
On July 15 2012 02:48 ohampatu wrote: This thread saddens me in so many ways.
1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.
2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.
3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.
4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.
5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.
Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.
Stop blaming Nestea, he took it like a man and only asked GOM to fix the problem for future matches. He is the one who acted 100 percent like he should have. What Byun did was definitely legal but probably not the Best in terms of sportsmanship. If you have problem with Nestea fans who are putting down Byun, that is fine. But Nestea didn't make a big deal out of it. So not sure why the blame is on him.
On July 15 2012 02:48 ohampatu wrote: This thread saddens me in so many ways.
1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.
2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.
3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.
4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.
5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.
Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.
nice, especially good point on #4 although I doubt nestea realized what was going to happen since its been so long that its been impossible to do that. He probably went into panic mode and didnt pause the game
#5 I would argue against, they are still needed. I refer you to nestea vs byun game.
I think they're a pretty dumb solution though since they go against map aesthetics if used in the same way on every map despite differing tilesets.
On July 15 2012 02:48 ohampatu wrote: This thread saddens me in so many ways.
1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.
2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.
3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.
4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.
5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.
Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.
Thank you for writing this. Only thing that I would like to add is that I think that there is some fault on the mapmaker, as he changed the map without telling anyone.
EPT
