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On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think it might be a worthy mental exercise to abandon the comparisons entirely and just talk about the map, mapmaker, players, and gom. It is a somewhat unique situation, after all.
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On July 13 2012 06:57 stratmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:46 whatevername wrote:On July 13 2012 06:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary. This is indeed the best part of what happened. Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons. How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now. As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy. This is so true and furthur supports my theory they should be completely removed from competitive play. Nestea is so used to the neutral depot that he doesn't even understand how to deflect a dbl bunker block without it. Yeah thats some serious 'high-level' play lol. Nestea had everything else in his favor including excelent scouting information.
Don't be dense. A player of NesTea's caliber most definitely knows how to deflect a double bunker block on the ladder. What likely happened was he didn't even notice the depot wasn't there because he expected it to be, and it should have been. That doesn't mean it's any less a mistake to not realize it's missing or to let the Bunkers go up, but don't pretend he doesn't know how to defend it.
What should have happened was he paused the game immediately after noticing the depot was missing OR after the bunkers went up and it was obvious there was no depot to make sure they were on the correct version of the map. A re-game after those points would be completely unfair to Byun, but making sure they are playing on the correct map is fine.
The fault lies with GOM for having them play a game on the wrong map...completely unprofessional.
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On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote:
Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are.
4-player map, Terran scouts Zerg first, Zerg patrols a drone at ramp, Terran brings 3 additional SCV to kill the patrolling drone, it takes about 10 in-game seconds for other drones to go reinforce, patrolling drone dies or gets out of the way, 2 bunkers go up, gg
is not what GOM wants in 15% of all TvZ for entertainment reason.
Overall balance-wise, I see no problem removing neutral depots as there is non on ladder. But GOM cares more about entertainment value than game balance itself.
I am not saying build above is what would happen or viable. GOM decided that having neutral depot at ramp would improve entertainment value they can deliver. Maybe GOM can try and remove neutral depots again to see if entertainment value decrease due to certain % of games with entire focus on 2bunkers/3pylons.
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On July 13 2012 07:31 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:29 Fragile51 wrote:On July 13 2012 07:27 KimJongChill wrote:On July 13 2012 07:21 Viktorin wrote:On July 12 2012 23:25 MaNaVoId wrote:
Lost all respect for byun for not reporting the bug to GOM even though he noticed it beforehand I guess he values money more than your respect. Which kind of says something about his character... Yeah, he values actual tournament results over the opinion of random people on the internet who get upset over literally anything. What a madman. No, he seems to value results above sportsmanship, fairness and respect.
Must be nice to live in whatever fantasy world you're currently residing in, but in the real world, winning is all that matters in a competitive environment. Whatever it takes. We were robbed of a good viewing experience because of a mistake by GOM, but you can't blame Byun for taking the win when he saw it. The people who value "sportsmanship, fairness, and respect" over results are the people who lose. I am as big a fan of BoxeR and WhiteRa as the next person, but there is no doubting that their choice to provide entertaining games no matter what has cost them a few wins historically (just as an example).
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On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it.
Except using a knife you find on the street and go stab someone is clearly prohibited by law in many countries, while using a map feature GOM didn't notice was by no means prohibited as far as I know.
GL man. Just don't do it in my country.
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On July 13 2012 07:00 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:31 ZasZ. wrote:On July 13 2012 06:22 Fragile51 wrote:On July 13 2012 06:17 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 06:13 Fragile51 wrote:On July 13 2012 06:10 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 06:03 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 05:46 Dosey wrote:On July 13 2012 05:37 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 05:09 Dosey wrote:
Should ByuN be punished? No. But he should be held accountable and (considering his past) deserves scrutiny. It was an obvious "bug" in the map as it wasn't announced and to take advantage of it in one of the biggest tournaments in SC2 is VERY underhanded. Not only that, but the map maker should be under investigation after this incident. He edited a map and implemented a change without testing it and didn't inform the rest of the staff. Both of these aspects sound extremely fishy to me, especially if you are going to say "it's a known bug" and then go on to not even test it... First of all its not a bug, it's the lack of a common map feature, secondly, there's hardly a need for this feature after the queen buff and the fact that you can totally deny it with a well executed drone drill, every way I look at it nestea's is 100% responsible for his loss. Typical Terran idiocy. The problem here isn't whether or not the supply depot should be there. The problem is that the official map that should be played has this feature. Everyone knows it has this feature, and it has it for a reason. If there was no announcement about the change, then it is obviously an error. Abusing this error for an advantage is unethical and should be frowned upon.I'm going to go with another terrible analogy (that actually happened btw, but with inflated numbers) Imagine you suddenly see an extra $20,000 in your bank account. Clearly an error has happened right? But instead of reporting this error you believe someone loves you and go on a shopping spree and enjoy yourself to the fullest. The bank that made this error finally realizes it happened and asks that you return the money as it was never yours. Should you be held accountable for the money and pay them back? You bet your fucking skippies you should and you are going to pay them back one way or another. Should you be charged with theft of the $20,000 that randomly appeared in your account? Hell no, not if you had nothing to do with it. But again, you can bet your fucking skippies that you are going to be investigated on the matter. As far as Byun could have known, that was the official version. How is it that NO ONE notices a potentially gamebreaking feature for over two weeks and then when one person "abuses" it then he turns into a scumbag? It wasn't announced. Every time a map is changed or there is a change, it is announced (Islands for example). Absuing this without reporting it is in very bad taste. I never said he is a scumbag. I said he should be held accountable for his actions and deserves scrutiny. As for the person with the Football comment. There is a MAJOR difference. Those sports choose to keep referees and use replays as little as possible to allow for human error to play a role. Here, there is a very strictly set map pool that is released to all the players to allow them to prepare. There is no "error" factor allowed when it comes to the map to keep the game as fair as possible. Again, by this logic, every single player who played on this map this entire GSL and GSTL season should be held accountable, as they noticed this too and chose not to report anything knowing that this could happen. Now of course this would be completely stupid, which is why its even more stupid to blame only Byun. It's the mapmakers fault for not checking, its Goms fault for not noticing earlier. End of discussion. Did they all bunker rush? I doubt it, or this would have been caught and fixed. And I already said that the map maker deserves the most blame and should be investigated... but to give Byun a free pass on this when he clearly abused an error on the largest stage in StarCraft is absurd. Whether they did or did not bunker rush is completely fucking irrelevant to my point and you know it. Every single time during GSTL season 2 and GSL season 3 when people played on metropolis the players knew that there were no neutral supply depots in the natural. None of them made any remarks about it. Therefor, it is unfair to blame Byun and Byun alone. Also, did you watch OSL semifinal this week? I remember in game 4 ZerO did a hydra/lurker drop vs Jangbi and he dropped a hydra behind the natural mineral line, where it couldnt be hit by zealots or any other melee unit yet still fire at the entire mineral line. There was no controversy about that. Of course not, because using the map to your advantage is not only what a pro gamer should do, but what is expected from them. Expecting otherwise is quite frankly, absurd. While I agree that it is wrong to blame Byun and not GOM for this mistake, the bolded analogy doesn't really work. Using a map feature to your advantage is one thing, but if the OSL made a change to that specific map because the hydra positioning was considered "abusive" and the change somehow got reverted in the map editing system, there would be a controversy. Byun didn't find some amazing new map feature to exploit, he used an old abusive strat that was purposely removed from tournament maps and accidentally got allowed back in. Again, the fault lies with GOM for not using the correct map, not Byun for taking a win where he saw it. But it does lower the quality of the games, and tournaments added the neutral depots for a reason. Yes, and the reason was bandwagoning, if it was that easy to execute and so impossible to defend, then why don't we see it rampant on the ladder anymore?I think the last time I saw someone using it was, hmm.. surprise surprise, Byun in the GSL!! Considering how many terran streams I watch there's got to be something weird about that, right?Now, I bet you and the rest here wouldn't want Hero and so many other protoss players to replay the games that they used the abusive sentry drop, would you? Because, you see, as of today that strat is actually much harder to defend then the one Byun used, even when scouted! 5 range queen and/or l2drone drill and/or scouting and pulling the correct amount of drones = problem solved, Nestea did none of those, impressive!Deserves a pat in the back for being robbed by the mean Byun that didn't play 10minNR, poor guy.
It happens all the time on ladder from players who don't play in tournaments. Players who play in tournaments never use this, because it's a waste of practice time. You still see it in Korean GM and everywhere below quite often.
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One would think that one of the casters would have paused the game and asked GOMTV if this was the right map.
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On July 13 2012 07:27 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:21 Viktorin wrote:On July 12 2012 23:25 MaNaVoId wrote:
Lost all respect for byun for not reporting the bug to GOM even though he noticed it beforehand I guess he values money more than your respect. Which kind of says something about his character...
Thats bullshit to say that.
Every pro WILL DO WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN.
If theres a map imbalance, you can bet your ass theyll use it.
Blue flame was OP, did you see pros saying "i wont use that, its imba"
Same with infester pre-nerf.
Your talking about, if he can get a competitive edge, on a map that was PLAYED IN GSTL and he noticed it, and Nestea didnt (not to mention, nesteas lack of map awareness at the start of the game. If he thwarted the cheese, he would have been way ahead) he should be punished for being aware?
Im sorry, but 2000$ for that win alone (the series); as well as potentially another 40k?
Your saying youd turn that down?
Not only has he done nothing for monetary gain in 6 months, no major results, but its his current CAREER. If he doesnt post results, he could be forced to retire.
If nestea thought it was unfair, he could have paused the game and asked for a re-do. He didnt. He had lackluster drone micro, didnt scout it, didnt prevent it, and played poorly all 3 games compared to byun. One loss wouldnt throw nestea off.
hes came back from worse. He has mental fortitude.
Dont make a mistake on GSLs part a huge hit on Byun as a person. Thats just retarded.
Think of all the times in sports where a ref has made a bad call, do you see the player going "NO NO NO, i did hold him/I did push him/I didnt catch the ball"
No, you dont.
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The attitude towards Byun, and legitimate strategies such as cheese within the game and its rules from this community is disappointing. It actually makes me a bit angry.
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Now people are attacking Byun's character?
That's downright stupid and idiotic.
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Pretty pathetic Zerg has to have a neutral building so they don't have to waste all the effort of patroling a drone at the ramp. They already made it so that it take 3 pylons to wall it, then put neutral buildings there all because Zerg are incapable of anything except building queens and drones.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 13 2012 07:49 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 06:57 stratmatt wrote:On July 13 2012 06:46 whatevername wrote:On July 13 2012 06:22 BronzeKnee wrote:On July 13 2012 06:20 oOOoOphidian wrote:
I am actually glad that things like this happen in such high profile games, so that blizzard will perhaps one day recognize the extreme need for neutral depots and other map features that everyone else agrees are 100% necessary. This is indeed the best part of what happened. Especially when Blizzard balances the game based on maps with ridiculous features like ramps that can be blocked by 2 Bunkers or 3 Pylons. How the fuck is it ridiculous that buildings can obstruct your ramp? What silly complaining nonsense; both situations can be stopped and taken advantage of by zerg and its done constantly on ladder. Neutral depots basically dont exist there. We all deal with it yet continue under a year+ delusion that triple pylon and double bunker blocks are imbalanced and unstoppable, because a LONG time ago no one knew the correct response. Like, these changes came into effect when the maps were smaller and barracks building time was faster etc etc. They arent necessary now. As to the actual game, nestea just fucked it up bad, he could of won it easy. This is so true and furthur supports my theory they should be completely removed from competitive play. Nestea is so used to the neutral depot that he doesn't even understand how to deflect a dbl bunker block without it. Yeah thats some serious 'high-level' play lol. Nestea had everything else in his favor including excelent scouting information. Don't be dense. A player of NesTea's caliber most definitely knows how to deflect a double bunker block on the ladder. What likely happened was he didn't even notice the depot wasn't there because he expected it to be, and it should have been. That doesn't mean it's any less a mistake to not realize it's missing or to let the Bunkers go up, but don't pretend he doesn't know how to defend it. What should have happened was he paused the game immediately after noticing the depot was missing OR after the bunkers went up and it was obvious there was no depot to make sure they were on the correct version of the map. A re-game after those points would be completely unfair to Byun, but making sure they are playing on the correct map is fine. The fault lies with GOM for having them play a game on the wrong map...completely unprofessional. You didnt watch the game. He scouted the 2 rax, his drone saw the marines head to his base, he had drones at the bottom of his ramp ready for it, his drones attacked the building scvs-- he then randomly stopped at 5hp and pulled them back to make spine crawlers. He then flailed on a number of occassions losing queens and lings unnecessarily. Regardless, the game was lost when he decided not to right click an scv until its dead. If he cant do that, how the fuck can you conclude he can deflect it on ladder? It was an egregious mistake by Nestea, an outlier, not because of some crippling shock that caused him to react entirely properly until the last second, but because he simply lost his concentration. He simply played sloppily and lost to an entirely fair strategy.
The controversy should be that on every map terrans bunker rushes are castrated for absolutely no good reason.On July 13 2012 07:49 Orek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:21 Shiori wrote:
Forgive me, but doesn't patrolling a Drone protect you against this sort of thing? Further, doesn't the new Queen range allow you to pick off repairing SCVs?
Perhaps it's time we reevaluated how overpowered ramp wall-offs actually are. 4-player map, Terran scouts Zerg first, Zerg patrols a drone at ramp, Terran brings 3 additional SCV to kill the patrolling drone, it takes about 10 in-game seconds for other drones to go reinforce, patrolling drone dies or gets out of the way, 2 bunkers go up, gg is not what GOM wants in 15% of all TvZ for entertainment reason. Overall balance-wise, I see no problem removing neutral depots as there is non on ladder. But GOM cares more about entertainment value than game balance itself. I am not saying build above is what would happen or viable. GOM decided that having neutral depot at ramp would improve entertainment value they can deliver. Maybe GOM can try and remove neutral depots again to see if entertainment value decrease due to certain % of games with entire focus on 2bunkers/3pylons. You can see a bolt of scv's rushing your base. If you are genuinely shocked when 4-5 scv's hit your natural you deserve to lose the game because your simply bad as hell.
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I totally agree with whatevername. I feel that he played it way to sloppy. Even though the supply depot wasn't there it could of been easily stopped. He made several mistakes..Didn't kill the scv, let the queen die, and attacked with such a low amount of zerglings.
Not only that he didn't even win one game. So really it didn't even matter.
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i love how this thread is still going. nestea got stomped regardless.
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On July 13 2012 09:01 rysecake wrote:
i love how this thread is still going. nestea got stomped regardless.
Byun played amazing. I feel Byun will more an likely make the finals. I hope it is DRG vs Byun  .
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Im surprised that there isn't a neutral depo on every map including ladder maps. It is an unfair advantage to the terran like holy shit I can block the ramp and if the Zerg doesn't hold it off im in almost an unlosable position for 200 minerals and can even salvage afterwards if they actually do hold it off.
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I feel bad for Nestea he definitely got cheated, but considering the way he played yesterday he would have been stomped anyways.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
hahahaha geez i wake up and thread has exploded. byun did nothing wrong, he's a boss =)
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EPT
