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On July 13 2012 07:46 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it. I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
I don't think either should be blamed completely. The map maker should have done a better job of getting the map right, GomTV should have made sure their map was correct, and Byun should have recognized that he was abusing a glitch/mistake and should not have done it. Forget the silly analogy, it's just that all three parties are somewhat at blame. It happened, let's make sure it does not happen again.
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.......
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
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Anyone else notice that in the intro screen to the map, just before the game starts, there are neutral depots?
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1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed.
2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness.
3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot.
4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks  . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers.
5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot.
It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
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On July 12 2012 22:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
I feel like it cost nestea the whole series.
No.
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Nestea is a true competitor. He isn't whining or bitching about it but taking it like a man and moving on. That's why he's such a badass.
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On July 13 2012 00:33 IdrA wrote:
byun is most definitely the bad guy. it does not matter if nestea was going to lose anyway, he probably was, and it doesnt matter if that version of the map was available for practice, although if it was nestea should have brought it up beforehand.
the bunker block is something that has been actively prevented on every map for the last year of competition. it is something that the community has collectively decided is unfair and the maps for every legitimate tournament have blocked it since, including every other version of metropolis.
for him to see that and plan on using it is utterly fucked up. its the same thing as pushing a guy down and kicking him in the balls because you realize the ref isnt looking. the only reason ramp blocking isnt explicitly banned in rules is because the community would get stupid about "banning a strategy" and its easily dealt with with map editting.
The lack of neutral depot was seen in recent GSTL games, it is entirely possible that Byun had thought it was an intentional change.
Your "kicking in the balls" analogy is stupid. Assaulting a competitor is explicitly breaking rules of conduct. Byun broke no written (or unwritten) rules of conduct.
It's a shame that for somebody so intellectually stunted by bias, you have so many rabid fans willing to parrot everything you say.
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On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't.
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
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On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
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It isn't a bug. Byun won, Nestea lost. That is that.
Was Byun Evil? Heck no. He played on the map he practiced on using info that was available to Nestea.
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On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game.
What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
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Obviously the correct map should have been used. That said, amazing performance by Byun to notice something he can exploit and using it this full advantage. Pure gamer right there. It reminds me of Stephano typing out "gl hf" in a game vs polt (during ASOS perhaps?) right when he knew his scouting drone would get to opponents ramp
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On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points.
I think you don't get the gist that we get your gist and reject your conclusion. If you don't pause and ask you are accepting the situation. Players pause all the time for lag, computer issues, etc and I have seen people question a map choice and gotten a regame.
You zergs should be glad anyway. ByuN advancing means you get to pretend the Queen buff didn't break the matchup
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Nestea always has a good idea in his head that how the game will flow. Most of his plans revolve around it and if if this part fails, it will have a huge impact on Nestea's game plan. It is obvious that Nestea did not take the lack of depot into account so he misjudged when and how many lings should be produced.
Afterall, it is just that Byun realize the lack of depot earlier than most players and take full advantage of it. He beat Nestea with it because his observation skill > Nestea's. Nestea lost that game because he failed to recognize a change on the map at all. Even if that change is unintentional, a professional should still try their best to win the game when the tournament organizer is not doing its job well. In this case, it would be take the bunker rush into account.
In short Byun won that game cuz Byun's observation skill > Nestea's. He deserve that win because he recognize a game changing factor in the new map while the others do not. Observation skill help determines how good a player builds are, and that's what Byun relied on to win that map from Nestea.
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Kind of stupid that Byun saw that and planned to abuse it. Obviously it was unintentional, why would anyone go backwards and remove the neutral depots so people can start walling ramps again?
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On July 13 2012 10:03 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game. What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair.
Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
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On July 13 2012 07:46 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it. I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right?
you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly.
if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can?
what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
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On July 13 2012 10:20 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. I think you don't get the gist that we get your gist and reject your conclusion. If you don't pause and ask you are accepting the situation. Players pause all the time for lag, computer issues, etc and I have seen people question a map choice and gotten a regame. You zergs should be glad anyway. ByuN advancing means you get to pretend the Queen buff didn't break the matchup
What exactly do you think my conclusion is that you're rejecting? It'll be easier to discuss this if no assumptions are made, so I'd like to know how you interpreted my post. My intended conclusion was simply that the points I listed are faulty for reasons already stated, and that Byun's win was by definition unfair.
I agree that Nestea reacted incorrectly to the situation and that he should have said something. Nestea's reaction, however, doesn't change the fact that Byun's win was by definition unfair. An unfair situation doesn't become fair just because people accept it.
I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm a zerg player or if your last couple sentences are separate from your first paragraph, but for the record, I'm a Toss player 
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On July 13 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:03 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game. What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair. Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair.
Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
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I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps.
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EPT
