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On July 13 2012 10:58 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:23 HolyArrow wrote:
.......
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially. It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
I agree that it's okay to question the validity of the rules, but that's a completely different discussion to what the rules currently are. The strategy is objectively unfair in context of the GSL's regulations. A competitor in a tournament should be tied to the rules of a tournament. It is not the competitor's place to knowingly violate rules he/she thinks is unfair. That's a completely ridiculous notion.
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On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks  . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
Well apparently that GSL_Metropolis was changed, and that change was applied to the map pool. Therefore, rule 4 was not violated. The depot-less Metropolis replaced the one with the depot.
It's also funny how it seems like no one else noticed. I bet many others (including myself) noticed that it was missing, and didn't report it. In that sense, aren't they all to be blamed for? I don't blame them. 11/11 bunker rush is not a completely op strat. ByuN was pretty sloppy doing it, but NesTea was even worse. Nothing ethically wrong with it, because he just used the map to his advantage, which is what every good player should be able to do. No rules state there has to be a neutral depot. No rules say bunker rush blocking the ramp is illegal. It's just what the map makers did so that they can prevent cheese. But again, I really don't see why they need the depots...as I said before it's totally not impossible to stop it or break it. And the terran would be ages behind if he fails.
Cheese vs Hatch first? I don't think any other race has an easy time holding against really fast cheese when they expo first...
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This is unfortunate and cost him the game, but Byun still played well in the other two games of the series, so flipping out over it at this point wont accomplish much. Very unfortunate, but you can't take credit away from Byun in that series.
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On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used.
just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =]
i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
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I don't see why this argument is still going. The outcome will not be changed no matter how many people are opposed to the results. Byun has made it to the semis and that won't change. The map will undoubtedly be "fixed" in the future. It's unfortunate for our creator of the universe, Nestea but life moves on. Congrats to Byun for moving on and showing us fantastic TvZ's the second and third set.
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So the mapmaker made a mistake with the map, gom didn't notice it and no one said it was a mistake and Byun played the map is. This is not Byun's fault. He played the hand he was dealt. Did someone tell him this was not right? Haven't read that anywhere so the guy did no wrong. Gom and the mapmaker need to pay attention to stuff like this.
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On July 13 2012 11:07 glzElectromaster wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. Well apparently that GSL_Metropolis was changed, and that change was applied to the map pool. Therefore, rule 4 was not violated. The depot-less Metropolis replaced the one with the depot. It's also funny how it seems like no one else noticed. I bet many others (including myself) noticed that it was missing, and didn't report it. In that sense, aren't they all to be blamed for? I don't blame them. 11/11 bunker rush is not a completely op strat. ByuN was pretty sloppy doing it, but NesTea was even worse. Nothing ethically wrong with it, because he just used the map to his advantage, which is what every good player should be able to do. No rules state there has to be a neutral depot. No rules say bunker rush blocking the ramp is illegal. It's just what the map makers did so that they can prevent cheese. But again, I really don't see why they need the depots...as I said before it's totally not impossible to stop it or break it. And the terran would be ages behind if he fails. Cheese vs Hatch first? I don't think any other race has an easy time holding against really fast cheese when they expo first...
Your argument hinges on the map pool being defined by the current state of the maps uploaded, which I don't think is true. My argument is that the map pool is pre-determined at the start of the tournament (in other words, it was pre-determined that GSL_Metropolis with depots would be used), and the wrong map not in the map pool was unintentionally uploaded for use.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:13 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:07 glzElectromaster wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. Well apparently that GSL_Metropolis was changed, and that change was applied to the map pool. Therefore, rule 4 was not violated. The depot-less Metropolis replaced the one with the depot. It's also funny how it seems like no one else noticed. I bet many others (including myself) noticed that it was missing, and didn't report it. In that sense, aren't they all to be blamed for? I don't blame them. 11/11 bunker rush is not a completely op strat. ByuN was pretty sloppy doing it, but NesTea was even worse. Nothing ethically wrong with it, because he just used the map to his advantage, which is what every good player should be able to do. No rules state there has to be a neutral depot. No rules say bunker rush blocking the ramp is illegal. It's just what the map makers did so that they can prevent cheese. But again, I really don't see why they need the depots...as I said before it's totally not impossible to stop it or break it. And the terran would be ages behind if he fails. Cheese vs Hatch first? I don't think any other race has an easy time holding against really fast cheese when they expo first... Your argument hinges on the map pool being defined by the current state of the maps uploaded, which I don't think is true. My argument is that the map pool is pre-determined at the start of the tournament (in other words, it was pre-determined that GSL_Metropolis with depots would be used), and the wrong map not in the map pool was unintentionally uploaded for use.
I'm pretty sure GOM has updated maps halfway through tournaments before, just that we've never really noticed.
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On July 13 2012 11:06 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:58 IshinShishi wrote:On July 13 2012 09:23 HolyArrow wrote:
.......
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially. It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life. I agree that it's okay to question the validity of the rules, but that's a completely different discussion to what the rules currently are. The strategy is objectively unfair in context of the GSL's regulations. A competitor in a tournament should be tied to the rules of a tournament. It is not the competitor's place to knowingly violate rules he/she thinks is unfair. That's a completely ridiculous notion.
Considering how lightly Byun answered the question regarding the particular game, I'm confident that he both agrees that the depots are unreasonable, and believed that everyone else was aware of the fact, though I'd be totally fine with it if he knew it was mistake anyway.
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On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc?
Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with).
Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
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On July 13 2012 11:11 jmbthirteen wrote:
So the mapmaker made a mistake with the map, gom didn't notice it and no one said it was a mistake and Byun played the map is. This is not Byun's fault. He played the hand he was dealt. Did someone tell him this was not right? Haven't read that anywhere so the guy did no wrong. Gom and the mapmaker need to pay attention to stuff like this.
You could say he was underhanded by not notifying anyone and instead incorporating his observation into his game but then that assumes Byun knew it was a mistake.
Overall, Byun studied and took advantage of the maps. He did everything a good starcraft player should. He may have beaten my favorite player but even I can't deny how much Byun earned his place in the semifinals. He played in great form and I'll be cheering for him.
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On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool.
I don't think any of us will ever find out, but the definition of the map pool isn't clearly listed. The map pool might be the maps they were originally like, or perhaps it may just be the names of the map. In the case of the former, you sir are right. But I have a feeling that it's the latter, as they don't specifically mention that it's the version of the map as of a certain date. It's the not like GSL Daybreak vs Daybreak LE.
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On July 13 2012 10:34 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 10:03 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game. What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair. Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair. Sure, I don't disagree with you there.
Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
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On July 13 2012 10:27 IcedBacon wrote:
Kind of stupid that Byun saw that and planned to abuse it. Obviously it was unintentional, why would anyone go backwards and remove the neutral depots so people can start walling ramps again?
1: It is arguable that with the queen range buff, the neutral supply is no longer required.
2: Ladder version of the map do NOT have neutral supply depot, and T don't have a 100% win rate against Z. In fact, they don't even have 50% win rate.
3: This is especially true on Metropolis, where T have a 33% win rate against Z, so it is conceivable to balance it more in T's favor.
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nestea lost twice to bunker rushes due to no bunker at ramp. sad 
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On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament.
The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
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On July 13 2012 11:22 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:34 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 10:03 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game. What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair. Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair. Sure, I don't disagree with you there. Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled.
Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
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On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance.
It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
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On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred.
The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters.
You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed.
Updates for performance issues are completely different from updates that may affect balance. So no, it is not clear that they just update the maps without informing the players. This was a mistake.
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EPT
