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On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks  . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises.
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
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On July 13 2012 09:57 Monochromatic wrote:
It isn't a bug. Byun won, Nestea lost. That is that.
Was Byun Evil? Heck no. He played on the map he practiced on using info that was available to Nestea.
this
his preparation for the games on certain maps was deeper so
anyone could noticed that if only they were paying attention
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
could...would.. NO MAN
he already lost. because he played worse. Deal with it. In some parallel universe maybe things will go other way. Not in this one.
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On July 13 2012 10:34 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps.
I personally don't see it as Byun's fault, but I can adopt the mindset of people who are accusing Byun of bad sportsmanship and make a pretty compelling argument: Any pro player should be aware that there are neutral depots to prevent plays like that. Yet, Byun notices the neutral depots aren't there, and doesn't raise any questions. A good sportsman should worry that a mistake was made that could impact the fairness of the game, and bring it up, but the only thing Byun thought of was to take advantage of it. Did it never strike Byun as odd that suddenly the neutral depots were gone, especially since he was aware that they used to be there? Why not mention it at all to the tournament organizers? One has to question whether or not Byun remained silent on the issue because it was convenient for him, and if he did, it certainly isn't his fault that the neutral depots weren't there, but it does reflect rather badly on his sportsmanship. I don't think anyone would dispute that someone knowingly taking advantage of an unintended flaw/mistake in a tournament setting and not saying anything about it is the definition of bad sportsmanship. The thing saving Byun in my mind is that I'm assuming that he didn't know it was actually a mistake, which is certainly a huge possibility.
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Some people might say that this is the problem with allowing non-Blizzard maps into tournament pools, while that is correct, I think that it's a much larger indication of a problem with Blizzard's reluctance to either sponsor or purchase well-made maps from independent mapmakers.
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On July 13 2012 10:31 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 07:46 karpo wrote:On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it. I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right? you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly. if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can? what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys?
they're not silly, they're god awful parallels
you are comparing someone dying to a fucking bunker rush in a video game LOL
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On July 13 2012 10:48 SenorChang wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:31 turdburgler wrote:On July 13 2012 07:46 karpo wrote:On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it. I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right? you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly. if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can? what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys? they're not silly, they're god awful parallels you are comparing someone dying to a fucking bunker rush in a video game LOL
so your argument is that because it happened in a video game it doesnt matter? i think you are on the wrong site LOL
lucky they are only playing for pixel money, oh wait
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Were going in circles that keep revolving back to sportsmanship and it being Byun's fault. I last said this on page 13, now its 23. We've now reached page 8 of the thread again, circles and circles. this point has been discussed to death
THere is no controversy at all, there is no issue. There was no unfairness. The series is over.
There have been like 7 games of GSL/GSTL. Nobody said anything, dont blame Byun for saying anything before the series started. He is the only person who seemed to do everything 100 percent as he should in this situation. Both GOM and Nestea are the ones at fault.
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On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
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On July 13 2012 10:49 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:48 SenorChang wrote:On July 13 2012 10:31 turdburgler wrote:On July 13 2012 07:46 karpo wrote:On July 13 2012 07:30 turdburgler wrote:
esvdiamond tweeted earlier to blame the map maker not the player, will remember that next time i find a knife on the street and go stab someone, dont blame me, blame the guy who dropped it. I hope this is sarcasm. No one is stupid enough to make this comparison seriously, right? you want more comparisons? i dont see why they are silly. if you jump out a window you dont blame the guy with the key. if you shoot someone with a gun you dont blame the manufacturer. byun needs to take some personal responsibility here. this isnt a grey area, every damn map has bunker blocks stopped, its clearly a mistake. he notices a week before hand and his only thought is to abuse it as hard as he can? what happened to good sportsmanship? or are we only stripping code s spots from white guys? they're not silly, they're god awful parallels you are comparing someone dying to a fucking bunker rush in a video game LOL so your argument is that because it happened in a video game it doesnt matter? i think you are on the wrong site LOL
no
that's not what i'm saying at all, and that is the flaw with your argument. you say something completely outrageous, but then i disagree with what you say and all of a sudden it doesnt matter to me?
if you'd made a sports analogy based on rules and players exploiting certain situations then I could agree with you, but here you are making a ridiculous comparison
and also, i didn't make an argument, i just said yours was bad, so don't put words in my mouth. thanks
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It's hard for me to believe that uploading the map to bnet could cause neutral supply depots to disappear. I don't know how the map editor works but I think it's more likely that the map maker made a mistake when removing all items of a certain type or something.
Good on Byun for finding the change though and beating Nestea!
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 13 2012 10:47 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:34 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps. I personally don't see it as Byun's fault, but I can adopt the mindset of people who are accusing Byun of bad sportsmanship and make a pretty compelling argument: Any pro player should be aware that there are neutral depots to prevent plays like that. Yet, Byun notices the neutral depots aren't there, and doesn't raise any questions. A good sportsman should worry that a mistake was made that could impact the fairness of the game, and bring it up, but the only thing Byun thought of was to take advantage of it. Did it never strike Byun as odd that suddenly the neutral depots were gone, especially since he was aware that they used to be there? Why not mention it at all to the tournament organizers? One has to question whether or not Byun remained silent on the issue because it was convenient for him, and if he did, it certainly isn't his fault that the neutral depots weren't there, but it does reflect rather badly on his sportsmanship. I don't think anyone would dispute that someone knowingly taking advantage of an unintended flaw/mistake in a tournament setting and not saying anything about it is the definition of bad sportsmanship. The thing saving Byun in my mind is that I'm assuming that he didn't know it was actually a mistake, which is certainly a huge possibility.
maybe nestea should have vetoed metropolis and atlantis spaceship rather than antiga shipyard then, since those maps are 30% TvZ. or maybe it was just convenient and nestea thought only to take advantage of the imbalanced map pool.
maybe nestea should have asked to play pre-patch too.
^ i know my little lines are stupid, but i feel like having a bit of fun
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
GOM staff changed the map though, I don't see a rule saying GSL_Metropolis will have neutral depots.
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The fact that Byun noticed this small but incredibly important bug but NesTea didn't should show you the skill differential between the two when preparing for this series, in addition to the other two games that Byun simply outplayed NesTea.
In the future, I would hope people that are planning on making money running/participating in tournaments will take the 5 seconds to check the map pool, or god forbid, make maps for each season to prevent stuff like this from happening. (I don't mean new maps entirely, but new versions such as GSL May Terminus or w/e)
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On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated.
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
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On July 13 2012 10:53 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:47 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:34 Pokebunny wrote:
I don't see why this should ever be considered Byun's fault. He is a competitor, it's not his job to regulate maps. I personally don't see it as Byun's fault, but I can adopt the mindset of people who are accusing Byun of bad sportsmanship and make a pretty compelling argument: Any pro player should be aware that there are neutral depots to prevent plays like that. Yet, Byun notices the neutral depots aren't there, and doesn't raise any questions. A good sportsman should worry that a mistake was made that could impact the fairness of the game, and bring it up, but the only thing Byun thought of was to take advantage of it. Did it never strike Byun as odd that suddenly the neutral depots were gone, especially since he was aware that they used to be there? Why not mention it at all to the tournament organizers? One has to question whether or not Byun remained silent on the issue because it was convenient for him, and if he did, it certainly isn't his fault that the neutral depots weren't there, but it does reflect rather badly on his sportsmanship. I don't think anyone would dispute that someone knowingly taking advantage of an unintended flaw/mistake in a tournament setting and not saying anything about it is the definition of bad sportsmanship. The thing saving Byun in my mind is that I'm assuming that he didn't know it was actually a mistake, which is certainly a huge possibility. maybe nestea should have vetoed metropolis and atlantis spaceship rather than antiga shipyard then, since those maps are 30% TvZ. or maybe it was just convenient and nestea thought only to take advantage of the imbalanced map pool. maybe nestea should have asked to play pre-patch too. ^ i know my little lines are stupid, but i feel like having a bit of fun
I'd like to throw out there that justifying the unfairness of what transpired by saying that the game is imbalanced against Terran anyway so it's okay is exceedingly foolish.
Good thing you're joking though  But I bet there are some people who are using that exact line of reasoning without joking >_<
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On July 13 2012 09:23 HolyArrow wrote:
.......
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially.
It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
my next LR thread will have, instead of
it'll be
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On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
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On July 13 2012 10:58 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 09:23 HolyArrow wrote:
.......
Okay. Some of the same irrelevant, fallacious points are being circulated over and over here.
1. "Byun rolled Nestea anyway, it would have turned out the same either way so it's okay!"
Wrong. The first game could have thrown Nestea on tilt, and perhaps Nestea would have been able to eke out wins on the last two maps if he had taken the first map. There are numerous scenarios one can speculate over and the point is that we don't know who would have won. The only way you can say "Oh well, it's ok, this map problem didn't change anything" is if you're 100% sure that Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there. And if you're 100% sure Byun would have won even if the neutral depots were there, then you're objectively wrong. Again, the point is that, despite how one-sided it looked, we don't know what would have happened if the right version of Metropolis was used, and that's why this situation is, in fact, not okay.
2. "That sort of bunker rush is supposed to be trivial to beat anyway, Nestea should have been able to deflect it. His fault."
This point is moot because that sort of bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen in the first place. Nestea's handling of it, good or bad, is completely and utterly irrelevant.
3. "That type of bunker rush is a fair strategy"
Your opinion on the fairness of the ramp-block bunker rush in general is completely irrelevant. It is objectively, incontrovertibly unfair that Byun was able to do that strategy in the GSL because it wasn't supposed to be doable on GSL Metropolis. When a tournament sets rules and map regulations and someone executes a strategy that a rule/map regulation is specifically supposed to prevent due to a mistake in map regulation, that's the very definition of unfair in context of the rules/map regulations set in the tournament.
And I feel the need to add this so I don't get attacked for being a Nestea fanboy and/or a Byun anti-fan: These arguments are ones I'd be making no matter who was playing. This isn't about the specific players involved. This is about the concept of fairness, player psychology, and Best-of-Xs in a tournament.
A second thing I want to add that I said earlier but I'll say again to avoid certain accusations: I am not saying Byun consciously exploited an unfair advantage in order to sneak a win. I have a positive opinion of his character and I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he simply thought the GSL switched to the no-neutral depot version of the map officially. It's not fallacious at all to question the validity of rules, especially when they don't actually exist and are just things expected of players, it's not like we are here to decide the fate of Byun or anyone else, we might as well discuss the whole matter, now, if I were in his place and knew that the depot shouldn't be there I wouldn't report it because I know that the strategy is not unfair, at all, the only irrelevant thing being said here is that we should go with the "by definitions" of life.
If it's not unfair, why wouldn't you report it? Conversely, if its fair, then surely reporting it could do no harm?
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament, and that type of bunker rush is what actually occurred. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots. Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious.
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did
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