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On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:35 shockaslim wrote:
[quote]
I don't think there are any rules in GSL that dictate what kind of play is supposed to happen in GSL, but, more specifically, what map features are a map REQUIREMENT. One day all of a sudden all of the maps had the neutral depot because mapmakers felt that these types of strategies were too strong, but I saw no rules in GSL saying that maps HAVE to have depots.
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page: 4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be.
BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
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On July 13 2012 11:41 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:On July 13 2012 10:52 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
Taken from the GSL tournament rules page:
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is not the same map as GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots. GSL_Metropolis with neutral depots is the map in the pre-determined map pool of the GSL. Yet, GSL_Metropolis without neutral depots is the map that was used - ergo, a map not in the map pool was used. Thus, rule 4 was violated. no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be. BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure?
First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
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So, if we look at another angle, if Byun noticed the map not having the depot, and practice a strategy for that map, but on the game day, GOM suddenly patch the map and add the depot in. Can Byun ask for the fairness at that time, since he has been practicing on the map so much?
Byun has been practicing and prepare maps better than Nestea. If this map is the 4th or 5th map, I can understand that Nestea didn't practice for this map. But, this is the first map of the series, and players should have been practicing this map the most. If Byun notices, Nestea and Terran practice partners and teammates should have noticed it too. It's hard to say it's anyone's fault but the organizer, but one thing for sure, Byun practices more than Nestea. If we want to blame Byun, we should blame his practice partners too.
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United States7483 Posts
Can't blame Byun for this, and he outplayed Nestea the other two games really badly that he won, so no real question as to whether he'd take the series.
Regardless, GOM screwed up and it sucks for Nestea.
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On July 13 2012 11:44 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:41 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:56 HQuality wrote:
[quote]
no there's pre-determined map GSL_Metropolis, not GSL_Metropolis_with_supply_depos_on_the_ramp You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be. BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure? First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware.
He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this.
The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident.
Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere.
The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
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do we even need the neutral depot anymore? zergs have improved to a state where they are now capable of patroling a drone on the ramp, and as a protoss it annoys me for sim citying my wall off on some maps.
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On July 13 2012 11:46 Whitewing wrote:
Can't blame Byun for this, and he outplayed Nestea the other two games really badly that he won, so no real question as to whether he'd take the series.
Regardless, GOM screwed up and it sucks for Nestea.
I understand he won convincingly but the Nestea fans don't want to see that. They want to make excuses on why he lost.
Now I understand the map didn't have the supply depot but they will say it threw the whole series off because of one game. Even though Seed was down 0-2 and came back an won 3-2.
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In all fairness... He lost 3-0
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On July 13 2012 11:52 L3g3nd_ wrote:
do we even need the neutral depot anymore? zergs have improved to a state where they are now capable of patroling a drone on the ramp, and as a protoss it annoys me for sim citying my wall off on some maps.
Yep, moreover, nowaday because most maps have such big open natural, Terran wall off using Orbital and depot with bunker near ramp, and on some map positions, it's impossible to wall off like that.
But meh, unless Terran's barrack increase build time 10,20 sec more to completely kill 2rax strat off, you will not see the depot removed.
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How come no-one else pointed the map feature out either. Aren't they as much to blame. I don't even see why there is any issue, Byun didn't break any rules. Play to win.
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On July 13 2012 11:36 orewakami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:22 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 10:34 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 10:03 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks  . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game. What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair. Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair. Sure, I don't disagree with you there. Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled. Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach.
No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion.
In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true:
1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?)
2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map?
3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used?
4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected?
None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
Here is an excellent piece discussing the subject.
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On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:
The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games."
It was not the map used.
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On July 13 2012 12:08 ore0z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:
The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games." It was not the map used.
Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken.
It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
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On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:44 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:41 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:02 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
You are implying that, in the GSL, it would be okay to take any map in the GSL map pool and use any version of the map in matches. You can't be serious. but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be. BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure? First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware. He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this. The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
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On July 13 2012 12:17 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:44 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:41 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:
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but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be. BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure? First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware. He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this. The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used. All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
Appeal to common sense, despite the wealth of people disagreeing with you.
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On July 13 2012 12:17 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:44 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:41 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:06 opterown wrote:
[quote]
but the thing is, they used the current and most updated one, and the GOM admins made the game. Not like Naniwa choosing Shakuras himself against NesTea at providence; byun didn't select specifically this map and make the game. the GOM guys did I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be. BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure? First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware. He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this. The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used. All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though.
Of course it was unfair to Nestea, GomTV fucked up. But your reason was wrong. Rule 4 was not broken, GomTV and / or mapmaker made a mistake, that's it.
You can argue that there should be a rule governing this situation, but as far as I know there isn't at the moment.
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People are blaming ByuN? Nothing he did was illegal, he took advantage of a situation to win. Its not like he flopped or cheated to get an advantage.
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On July 13 2012 12:18 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 12:17 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:44 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:41 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:38 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:30 ragz_gt wrote:On July 13 2012 11:16 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 11:11 opterown wrote:On July 13 2012 11:10 HolyArrow wrote:
[quote]
I don't know why you're trying to talk about blame or fault here, because that's not what I'm talking about at all. I already said in multiple posts that it definitely isn't Byun's fault that the wrong map version was used. just wanted to say that I don't think Rule 4 was broken =] i don't think i mentioned fault etc? Sorry, it seemed like emphasizing that Byun didn't select the map and the GOM guys did (and bringing up the contrast of Naniwa choosing the map himself) was specifically addressing fault. Your post basically says that it's not Byun's fault that the wrong map was selected, but rather, the fault of the Gom guys (which I agree with). Rule 4 was broken for reasons stated in my previous post. The map pool is pre-determined. It's not something that changes willy nilly depending on which map happens to get uploaded. People are trying to argue that a mistake led to a change in the map pool and thus no rules were broken. I am arguing that the map pool is predetermined, and the mistake led to the wrong map being uploaded in violation of the map pool. You can try to argue technicalities all you want, I'm personally getting tired of this. I will say this, which I think is impossible to argue against because it's all factual: Byun got a win with a strategy that only worked due to a completely unintended problem that arose when the map was uploaded. That version of Metropolis was not supposed to be used in the GSL, yet it was. How you interpret that is up to you, but the fact is that Byun was clearly not supposed to be able to use that strategy in context of the intended regulations of the tournament. The OP specially said the map is updated to solve lag issue that DRG complained. So obviously they DO change map during season. Thus your point that map pool is predetermined is simply NOT true. Now, something that was not intended (removal of neutral supply depot) got in as well, but that does not mean GomTV cannot do it if they wanted to. And it is plausible to assume that was their intention since they authorized the map to be updated, even though the map maker goofed. The OP says that the change was intended to fix framerate issues, not impact balance. If you want to nitpick at technicalities then I'll just specify my argument: The map pool was predetermined with specific states of balance in mind. The change, meant to change the framerate issues but not the balance, ended up accidentally making a change that did indeed impact balance. It is also not plausible to assume that their intention was to allow that change in, because the OP mentions that they're reversing the change. They authorized the map to be updated, but only with changes that impact framerate, not balance. They obviously didn't authorize that the neutral depots be taken out, and this is proved by how they're changing the map back to what it was intended to be. BEFORE the fact... Of course we know NOW it was not intended, but hindsight is 20/20. Even John seem to think it was proper to have no supply depot right after this occurred and posted so on twitter. Now, if GomTV themselves were not sure, how can you be so sure and assume players to be so sure? First of all, John does not solely represent GomTV. The business with the maps is someone else's job altogether, I think. I don't know what you mean when you bring up the players, because I already said many, many, times that I don't fault Byun and that I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he wasn't aware. He did feel authorized enough to comment on it (wrongly), so we can assume that GomTV don't have all their marbles together on this. The rule 4 have NOTHING that governs this incident. Rule 4 simply says they should use GSL map pool, which was updated, to include Metroplis without neutral supply depot. Whether it was intentional or not was inconsequential. There is nothing in the rule that says map pool cannot be changed at the discretion of GomTV, which the update was, just messed up. The assumption that the map pools are "predetermined" and that GomTV do not have the power to change balance aspect during season if they need to is only that, your assumption, it was not included in the rule anywhere. The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used. All you're doing is taking advantage of trite technicalities to obscure a situation that common sense dictates is obviously unfair. I don't really care whether or not the rules were technically violated, my aim is just to prove that game 1 was an unfair game, and that no rationalizing changes that fact. You'd probably be a good lawyer, though. Of course it was unfair to Nestea, GomTV fucked up. But your reason was wrong. Rule 4 was not broken, GomTV and / or mapmaker made a mistake, that's it.
As long as you admit that, I'm fine with whatever you think about the rules. I could argue further about the semantics of the rules, but I'm frankly tired of doing this, been posting way too much on this topic.
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On July 13 2012 12:07 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 11:36 orewakami wrote:On July 13 2012 11:22 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 10:34 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 10:27 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 10:03 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:52 Shiori wrote:On July 13 2012 09:42 HolyArrow wrote:On July 13 2012 09:31 ohampatu wrote:1. Nestea could have paused when he noticed. 2. If Nestea didn't notice ingame, thats his fault for lack of awareness. 3. Nestea is the only person to blame for not asking for a regame upong noticing the depot. 4. Bunker rush is a fair strategy, people use it all the time, just not ramp blocks . So no, thats not irrelevant. We brought it u because Nestea didn't react even semi appropiately to the bunkers. 5. A simple patrol done correctly beats this, it shouldn't even be in the game. Its lazy. It wasn't added for balance. It was added for viwership. The maps are balanced on ladder, where they dont have the depot. It doesn't matter if byun did or didn't know the depot was needed. Earlier i stated my opinion on him thinking it was legit, but even if he knew it should be there, he did his homework where others didn't. I feel like you're not getting the gist of my points. The important thing to understand is that the ramp-block bunker rush wasn't supposed to be allowed to happen on the GSL version of Metropolis, and the fact that it did happen is the issue. Whether or not the neutral depots should be there is irrelevant. How well or badly Nestea reacted to it is irrelevant. And in the context of the GSL, I completely agree that non-ramp block bunker rushes are completely fair. But ramp-block bunker rushes are unfair due to the intended rules and regulations of the tournament. The only thing that matter is that that sort of ramp-blocking bunker rush isn't supposed to happen in the GSL, yet it did. That's literally all that matters. You cannot make points that involve scenarios that would have been impossible to occur had the intended depots been there. Any point that meets that criteria is irrelevant. Furthermore, the very presence of neutral depots at the ramp is a completely different discussion altogether. This is about how they were supposed to be there, yet they weren't. This isn't about whether or not they should be there in the first place. The fact is that they should have been there, and they weren't, and that's where the unfairness arises. So what exactly do you want? Like, what do you think can actually be done, at this point, to rectify something that already occurred. When the games go live, the games go live. You don't simply stop the series and declare one of the games invalid after the fact because there was an error that neither player was responsible for. If anything is going to tilt someone, it'd be stopping the series and replaying the game. What you're bringing up is irrelevant to what I'm saying. I never said anything about what should or shouldn't be done. That's not what my points are about. My points are just there to refute all the faulty rationalizations people are making, simply because it annoys me when people do that. That's it. In the end, I don't blame Byun because I'm giving him the benefit of doubt that he didn't realize it was the wrong map version. However, whether or not Byun gets blame is again irrelevant. The point is that a win achieved in a way that tournament regulations are supposed to prevent is an unfair win. It's not Byun's fault that the win was unfair, and he doesn't deserve to be penalized for it or blamed for it at all. But the win is still, by definition, unfair. Luckily "by definition" is the only sense in which this win is unfair. Sure, I don't disagree with you there. Ergo, it is irrelevant. If nothing more than definitions can be supplied then it means that in every other, important sense, the issue is settled. Yes, it was only unfair based on what unfair actually means. But, if you want to consider the important senses of what unfair does't mean, for example crocodiles and long walks on the beach, then yes, ergo, it wasn't crocodiles and long walks on the beach. No, you're failing to understand my point. When people say "by definition" what they really mean is that something doesn't resemble the term in question except according to a purposefully narrow definition. For example, if I argue that atheism is a religion by definition then the error of conversation is to ignore that this narrow adherence to a preconceived definition is, in fact, the only sense in which atheism resembles religion. In the case of fairness, Nestea was only treated unfairly in the sense that Gom incorrectly used an improper map, making the situation trivially unfair in the sense that it would be "unfair" for them to use a differently textured, but not officially sanctioned, map. In terms of how the game actually played out, it has yet to be shown that any of the following are true: 1) Nestea suffered an undue disadvantage viz a vis the game itself from the map's condition (i.e. are Bunker rushes actually overpowered in the current meta?) 2) Was Nestea mislead by someone other than himself about the state of the map? 3) Did Byun have access to any information that Nestea did not have access to with regard to the map being used? 4) Did Nestea request referee action only to have it rejected? None of these have been satisfied. I've yet to hear an argument for what was unfair (as opposed to unfortunate) about this that isn't "Gom generally intends to have Supply Depots." The two are not equivalent.
I think you're failing to understand the definition of definition, so to speak. If A is B by definition, then there is no important sense in which A is not B. It is a contradiction to say that that both A is B by definition, and also that in "important senses" A is not B. This is logic.
Your examples do not contradict this. If you give a definition of religion, and you show that atheism fulfills that definition, you either need to reject that definition of religion and therefore claim that atheism is not a religion by definition, or you need to accept that atheism is a religion.
Your list of terms of what "has yet to be shown" is as a random assortment of things you might be (rather idiosyncratically) worried about.
Did Nestea's power turn off on his computer?
Did space aliens abduct his mouse?
Did Byun have sex with Nestea's girlfriend?
Did he have a balanced breakfast and 8 hours of sleep?
But they do not aid up to a definition of 'unfair'.
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On July 13 2012 12:13 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 12:08 ore0z wrote:On July 13 2012 11:52 ragz_gt wrote:
The rule simply says: you must use the current version of GSL_Metropolis, and that was exactly the map used.
"The map will be changed immediately, and will once again feature neutral supply depots at the ramp starting with tomorrow's GSTL games." It was not the map used. Your causal relationship makes no sense. The fact that they are changing it again does not mean the one without supply was not "In the GSL map pool", which is all the rule requires. They effed up, that's bad; they are now are fixing, that's good. It does not mean that the rule "You must use the map in map pool" was broken. It's like I hold up a red shirt and say "You must look at the shirt I'm holding, or you owe me $10". Then for some reason I changed the shirt I'm holding yellow shirt, and went "Oops, didn't mean to do that", and changed back to the red shirt. That does NOT mean you are now owe me $10 for looking at the yellow shirt.
This also implies that you know, and Gom knows, this is not the map intended.
You know very well that that this "current version" of GSL_Metropolis was not the map in the "GSL map pool"
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EPT
