With MLG coming up this weekend we have another one of our biggest events and it is totally dominated by Koreans again.
Lately every MLG and IPL have been totally Korean dominated and that makes it just so much less interesting. Yes I love to watch GSL, I also like to watch Broodwar OSL but when Im watching an international tournament it should be INTERNATIONAL.
Do you know what Koreans did when they hosted their first international tournament (WCG)? They didnt allow more than 3 players from every country to avoid a bracket with 31 Koreans in the top 32. They knew that most people would not be interested in watching a 2nd OSL which is run on 2 days. What did they do instead? They created a tournament which greatly supported esport in dozens of countries for almost a decade.
How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Casual viewers know the top foreigners and a few Koreans like MC.
What makes GSL so great is the incredible level of play and the hard competition. What has made MLG the best tournament in the past was the great athmosphere, the interesting storylines, rivalries etc. and also the great games of course.
But really, in 2012 most of that is gone.
Yes the level of play is awesome, but I can see better games in the GSL every day. Why do you turn MLG into a one weekend GSL?
Ive bought MLG passes in the past, I will still buy GSL passes and for Homestory cup – not for MLG anymore until this changes again.
And to all the people who say that foreigners should just train harder. Do you really think that it is realistic, especially with the BW pros switching to SC2, that we will EVER have more than 3 foreigners who can keep up with the top 30 Koreans? Its not.
In my opinion, I think it's way more excitiing when a foreigner making it far in a stacked tournament. Rather see Stephano in a top 8 in a sick stacked tournament, rather than him finishing first in a EU only tournament or something.
+ the fact that a tournament is more exciting for me if Leenock is attending, so want him in MLGs / IPLs etc :p
I also like watching foreigners more because I know them and their history better. Watching Koreans feels a bit like watching two very good CPU playing against each other Not that exciting
Carmac said it best in one tweet, that tournaments NEED foreigners.
I will follow MLG just as I follow GSL but I would have preferred if MLG had 1/3 foreigners in it because I already have GLS for a full Korea (almost now) tournament.
It's pretty strange that korean tournaments are held the way that foreigners would have to spend shitload of money just to attend it in its integrality while they are invited to western countries tourney that are held for like 3 days max ?
I root for a player first and foremost on their credibility as a player, doesn't matter where the fuck someone is from, they have their own way of playing the game and that distinguishes people, we are here as fans of starcraft are we not?
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
What does this have to do with anything? So koreans shouldn't practice as much because foreigners can't keep up and it isn't fair or what is your point?
It's not fun to watch Koreans. I have no interest in any of them. That would change if I knew anything at all about their history or their person, but I'm not learning Korean just for that and certainly not making the effort just because they play the game better. I'm just a guy who likes to watch the players play rather than the game itself.
Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
who cares if the players are koreans or foreigners ? ffs if you truly are a starcraft 2 fan you should care about the quality of the games nothing else
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
can you elaborate this, since you have the first hand experience? we see EG Lair and other houses' conditions. what are the differences that they don't have?
The day that they put a limit on the amount of good players can play in MLG is the day I'll stop watching. Bring in the best players I say, korean or non-korean.
I have a question concerning this, is Germany the only country in the world which has a domestic league like the ESL Pro Series?
The WCS showed that there is intrest in a domestic tournament and especially the US, where the amount players that are somewhat known, is stagnating might have a need for a domestic league. Especially considering that as a younger guy, you want to see players form your region doing well and think, wow that is something i want to and CAN do.
MLG does not need to implement a quota of non Koreans but there needs to be a NASL that actually is restricted to Na to further interest in the North American players.
On June 06 2012 21:23 Jinsho wrote: It's not fun to watch Koreans. I have no interest in any of them. That would change if I knew anything at all about their history or their person, but I'm not learning Korean just for that and certainly not making the effort just because they play the game better. I'm just a guy who likes to watch the players play rather than the game itself.
You realise you don't have to learn Korean to learn about their history or their person. I know most Korean personalities than I do foreign and I don't speak a word of Korean.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
can you elaborate this, since you have the first hand experience? we see EG Lair and other houses' conditions. what are the differences that they don't have?
Personally I thought the EG Lair actually looked better than the Slayers house... meh
@OP, comeon, this topic has been beaten to the death already. Simply put, Koreans are better because they train harder...
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
yeah..... i really hope you get banned for that random korean who like noodles comment, its a disgrace. also, your entire post is stupid, tournaments without koreans exist, they just have really bad play. im fairly sure that at MLG there is also going to be the WCS american qualifiers or some thing, so you have no reason to complain about anything, except that it will be awful to watch
Two scenarios: More realistic : It will go to semi BW state, Korea vs Korea with quite ok foreigner following but in the end completely unfeasible business for western scene in the long run.
Optimistic : Korea vs Korea , but huge foreigner crowd following it.
This idea behind this topic is embarrassing. We have to discriminate against Koreans AND knock down the competition level of the biggest LANs in America? (Not counting IPL ofc) Cmon man that's just sad.
I don't think anyone really minds it when Koreans win when they're familiar with the player. MC, MKP, MMA, MVP, Hero, Taeja are some players that come immediately to my head that a lot of people would love to watch.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
well you practice alot (maybe more than the koreans) but you looked like shit compared to MvP ... so i think its a brain thing maybe you should try to get smarter (what i dont thing you gonna be ever because of your attitude) and then talk about "conditions"...
Ban Koreans from Tournaments = No Competition and Entertaining
The integrity of the competition shouldn't be affected just to suit people who only follow non-koreans. Sure, have foreign-only leagues or an invite system with only a small number of koreans, but if you want to be considered a premier tournament you can't do that. There are enough tournaments out there right now that there can be both, but MLG wants to be THE premier tournament (outside GSL) and they aren't going to be that if they handicap players by their nationality.
And Naniwa, stop making excuses and being passive aggressive . It's quite immature . DUCY?
After all, people in Africa don't have the training infrastructure that people do in Sweden, what are you going to do about it? Limit the number of Swedes allowed in events because they are crowding out Africans?
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
What does this have to do with anything? So koreans shouldn't practice as much because foreigners can't keep up and it isn't fair or what is your point?
i write my opinion then i stop posting,
1. 99% of all practice replays with any korean players will be leaked if ur a foreigner unless ur in the same team 2. They will always prioritize korean players over foreign players even if they are in other teams. ( Korean pride ) 3. Its not the same outside korea because there is so few good players and no teamhouses in the same way.. the eg house is in america and its the only one there which makes it useless in terms of getting better practice than sitting at home.
these are just my experiences. ladder is still good practice but not optimal
just letting of some steam i guess . have fun 12 year old fans whos comments i wont be reading!
On June 06 2012 21:23 Jinsho wrote: It's not fun to watch Koreans. I have no interest in any of them. That would change if I knew anything at all about their history or their person, but I'm not learning Korean just for that and certainly not making the effort just because they play the game better. I'm just a guy who likes to watch the players play rather than the game itself.
Like you have to learn korean to know the history or te personality of the koreans players.
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
That has little to nothing to do with LoL's success. I'm not going to get into it here, but it's more thanks to the style of game and it's appeal to more casual players. Don't even try and use that as an excuse to ban Koreans from MLG, you'll just look silly.
How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Anyways, I dont know why this is still open with the OP using very borderline expressions to describe Koreans. Noodle eating whatever? Come on just cause your a fat german drinking beer and eating wurst and schnitzels all day doesnt mean you need to be hurtful
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
What does this have to do with anything? So koreans shouldn't practice as much because foreigners can't keep up and it isn't fair or what is your point?
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
can you elaborate this, since you have the first hand experience? we see EG Lair and other houses' conditions. what are the differences that they don't have?
It's the lack of quality practice partners. Compare the calibre of players in the EG house to the calibre of players in the IM house
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
No, its extremely successful becuase it is f2p and very easy to get into. The Koreans are already beginning to dominate western teams.
I don't care where players are from, I care who they are.
To be honest this whole foreigner vs korean thing means nothing to me, and never has. People on TL keep trying to impress upon me that I should be rooting for foreigners over koreans most of the time.
I don't get that. I understand national pride and all, but it's not even national pride 90% of the time, it's the "foreigner" tag. I mean I'll cheer if Moonglade represents australia, but why should I support European#1523 over SouthKorean#1555?
Sorry people, I don't care for players because they can adopt a foreigner tag. I care when they're interesting in both play and personality. Being born somewhere doesn't make them interesting.
On June 06 2012 21:17 speknek wrote: Speak for yourself. I don't watch tournaments without koreans, because I wanna see the highest level of play. No need for discrimination btw, OP.
Same here, and it's got me knowing alot of the korean pro gamers so watching MLG with predominantly koreans is still quite enjoyable for me.
Well yeah I honestly believe foreign players(kinda bugs me that we call americans foreign in our own tournament?) can step up and win this thing. Of course we are looking at the usual people to step up, idra,ret,thorzain, naniwa, huk....and others.
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
Then why is DotA scene so big then? Since the Chinese are basically dominating everything (only exception Na'Vi in DotA 2). Your argument is invalid...
Its people like the OP that gets terran nerfed (the objectively hardest race played by the best koreans) and Protoss/Zerg buffed (the go to choice for foreigners because you can just a-move)
On June 06 2012 21:17 speknek wrote: Speak for yourself. I don't watch tournaments without koreans, because I wanna see the highest level of play. No need for discrimination btw, OP.
Same here, and it's got me knowing alot of the korean pro gamers so watching MLG with predominantly koreans is still quite enjoyable for me.
same for me, i don't listen to mostly foreigner tournament.
This is literally the same shit spilled out by right-wing white nationalist against immagrants in real live. Hope that puts your oppinion in prespective.
So we should ban koreans, that's what you propose? Pathetic.
StarCraft is everything to korean players. Koreans basically abandon their education and personal lives to play the game they like and have passion for, the competition between them is so fucking TOUGH (one day you play in the GSL final, the next season you're in Code A/B). I don't think we'll see any foreigner in the future who will go to such lengths for a "game".
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
No, its extremely successful becuase it is f2p and very easy to get into. The Koreans are already beginning to dominate western teams.
Still, foreigners are still represented by teams they can relate to.
On June 06 2012 21:33 Calis5 wrote: Its people like the OP that gets terran nerfed (the objectively hardest race played by the best koreans) and Protoss/Zerg buffed (the go to choice for foreigners because you can just a-move)
ahahha dont know how you pulled that one off. Hilarious xD
How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
I like seeing random american 1 who probably like burgers play against random american 2 who doesn't practice that much but he also probably likes burgers too
I do agree that it can be somewhat depressing to see a Top 8 filled with South Koreans. But at the same time the ultimate storyline at these events is when someone is able to take them out, when someone is able to defeat them. I am looking forward to more non-Koreans coming out of nowhere to take down big names and get a thousand new fans because of it.
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
No, its extremely successful becuase it is f2p and very easy to get into. The Koreans are already beginning to dominate western teams.
Still, foreigners are still represented by teams they can relate to.
Don't act like you're speaking for all foreigners. If this thread shows anything, it's that most foreigners support good players/teams over a "foreigner" tag. Maybe you prefer a team you can relate to because they're not Korean, but that doesn't mean all foreigners do.
I am more likely to watch a tournament with only the best players in the world competing, so if MLG had mostly Koreans and the very best foreigners, i'll be happy.
The problem is with you, not the tournament. It's not MLG's fault you are just another braindead sports fan who only cares about rooting for the home team.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
can you elaborate this, since you have the first hand experience? we see EG Lair and other houses' conditions. what are the differences that they don't have?
i think the living conditions that foreigner houses have are usually of a higher standard than Korean teamhouses, even though most of the important Korean teams have reasonable accommodation.
What Nani is talking about, I think, is that Koreans have several advantages simply by being in Korea and speaking Korean.
A) Access to high skilled, experienced coaches. All of the big SC2 Korean teams have coaches that are often ex BW coaches as well as being high masters SC2 players. These coaches know how to formulate new strategies, search for proper practice partners, identify weaknesses in opponents and create training regimes for the entire house as well as looking after everything else.
B) Extreme population density. All the major Korean SC2 teams live within around a ~4 hour radius of each other (I think). They can get to and from GOM easily and have access to each other and the talent pool within Seoul and Korea in a very short distance. Additionally the concentration of high skilled, professional players on Korean ladder makes it infinitely better training than any other comparable ladder as well as being an amazing resource for finding appropriate practices partners.
C) The BW legacy. Koreans in SC2 have all had some sort of exposure to the BW scene in Korea. Whether they are ex-BW pros, semi-pro players or just fans, they all have some sort of knowledge of the scene. BW had the highest level of professionalism in any esport ever, meaning that these SC2 pros know inherently how to 'be' a pro due to having native role models to follow. Futhermore, having the BW legacy makes pursuing a progaming career that much more acceptable (although not as widely accepted as we would like to think). Ergo it is ok for guys like Maru and Creator to skip out school to practice and participate. It makes it easier for the unknowns in the scene to rise up and train really hard, not having to concentrate on much else (even those who have to find success, ie Polt)
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
You mean the foreigners are just worse than the Koreans? The only people the foreigners can blame for being behind is theirselves, if they worked harder they would play better.
There are still plenty of foreigners in foreign tournaments - MLG's not the only major tournament. Also, until recently the Korean contingent in any particular foreign tournament has actually been quite small compared to the number of foreigners - the only reason we see so much of the Koreans is because they always dominate the opposition and wind up in the finals. The pool play of this MLG is obviously far more skewed to Koreans, but it's hardly their fault that they have dominated the foreigners in every past MLG.
And frankly I think your characterisation of Koreans of all being the same (eating noodles and playing a lot) is simply racist - if you bother to get involved in the Korean scene at all you'll notice all of their attitudes, playstyles and behaviour is almost as varied as the westerners - though it lacks some of the BM. There are still rivalries, storylines, Just because you can't tell them apart doesn't mean others can't.
Finally, if we did restrict the number of Koreans, wouldn't that simply make an MLG win meaningless? "XXX won MLG, but that doesn't mean anything cause half the qualified top-tier players weren't allowed to compete." The foreign scene will take another few years to reach Korean standards, perhaps, but eventually it'll happen, and segregating the Koreans won't help speed things up.
You just have to blame foreign tournament hosts like MLG and IPL. If they don't pay airplane tickets and hotel for Korean players, they wouldn't risk paying 2k each and fly half way around the world over here to compete. Maybe coach Lee would send a couple players over, plus MC, that's it. If you don't want heavy number of Koreans in the tournaments, just tell those organizations! no just shouting out to nowhere.
Naniwa, maybe you should have posted that on your first comment. You were very vague and uninformative. Calling people 13 year olds because they disagree with you? I expected better and more mature comment after past incident... I see nothing has changed.
On June 06 2012 21:33 Calis5 wrote: Its people like the OP that gets terran nerfed (the objectively hardest race played by the best koreans) and Protoss/Zerg buffed (the go to choice for foreigners because you can just a-move)
How did you manage to insert a balance whine in this thread ? Seriously you're a genius :D
WCS is providing exactly the experience you want and it'll have qualifiers for the US portion at MLG, there's no reason to completely toilet the skill level of the main tournament just to cater to your non-Korean bias especially given the various other side-shows going on at this event.
On June 06 2012 21:38 ExceeD_DreaM wrote: Naniwa, maybe you should have posted that on your first comment. You were very vague and uninformative. Calling people 13 year olds because they disagree with you? I expected better and more mature comment after past incident... I see nothing has changed.
Why would you expect anything different? He is one of the most childish progamers in the scene (and one of the best). He is extremely paranoid and has a persecution complex, which is why he freaks out when he loses and thinks all the koreans are out to get him.
In both the short and long term, tournaments made up by almost exclusively Korean participants will hurt the viewership of the tournaments. It is such an obvious fact. Yes, you hardcore fans who read and write on the TL forums will remain. But the casuals, the people who are necessary to fill out venues and to grow the scene (or keep it as is, aren't we actually experiencing dwindling viewership?) will disappear. Many don't have a problem with that. If you're solely interested in Korean SC2, well, then what does it matter?
But it will hurt the ability to have these tournaments in the first place.
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
No, its extremely successful becuase it is f2p and very easy to get into. The Koreans are already beginning to dominate western teams.
Still, foreigners are still represented by teams they can relate to.
Don't act like you're speaking for all foreigners. If this thread shows anything, it's that most foreigners support good players/teams over a "foreigner" tag. Maybe you prefer a team you can relate to because they're not Korean, but that doesn't mean all foreigners do.
We'll see that in time because it's pretty much written that next year, we'll have like 90% of people competing in MLG and tourney like that being not foreigners, due to Kespa. I wonder how much the number of people watching will increase/decrease. Except for the hype at the beginning with BW stars.
I so agree with this, sure Koreans should be allowed but there should be like a limit for each country or something... if i want to watch 16 koreans play i watch GSL, if i want to mostly "foreigners" i watch for example dreamhack... MLG was the tournament both came together but how it is right now its more like GSLv2 which makes it a lot less attractive for me
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
Speak for yourself - I'm a foreigner and all my favourite players are Koreans and I enjoy watching and learning from top level play.
If people are genuinely concerned about Korean dominance, just like in traditional sports there is separation of men and women in to different leagues and tournaments, the same can be applied in Starcraft with Koreans and foreigners.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
You mean the foreigners are just worse than the Koreans? The only people the foreigners can blame for being behind is theirselves, if they worked harder they would play better.
you can practice as much as you want but if you dont have alot of high level players to discuss the game with you wont improve as fast as other players
On June 06 2012 21:38 NoGasfOu wrote: You just have to blame foreign tournament hosts like MLG and IPL. If they don't pay airplane tickets and hotel for Korean players, they wouldn't risk paying 2k each and fly half way around the world over here to compete. Maybe coach Lee would send a couple players over, plus MC, that's it. If you don't want heavy number of Koreans in the tournaments, just tell those organizations! no just shouting out to nowhere.
They pay the tickets for Koreans to come to these events because it gives the tournament legitimacy. A tournament just filled with a bunch of foreigners doesn't carry any weight to it, and less people will watch contrary to what the OP believes.
On June 06 2012 21:33 Calis5 wrote: Its people like the OP that gets terran nerfed (the objectively hardest race played by the best koreans) and Protoss/Zerg buffed (the go to choice for foreigners because you can just a-move)
How did you manage to insert a balance whine in this thread ? Seriously you're a genius :D
I'm completely serious, blizzard balances terran around the likes of MKP and MVP and blizzard balances zerg/protoss around NA 'pros'
The only thing you can do is change the qualification system to give spots based on region, but I don't think this would be very good idea, if 4 top koreans qualify to pool play, it's 80% guaranteed they'll take all top 3 spots. It would be last year all over again and what's the difference between now and then if the top 3 are the same? Foreigners don't have the same structure and even the few who do, doesn't practice enough or isn't good enough.
I don't want SC2 to end up like BW, closed to South Korea only, but it seems to be what's happening.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: ... How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Really are we now insulting our great overlords? If foreigners want to compete on the same level of koreans (talking mostly about the pros here) then they have to play SC2 as if their lives depended on it.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
You mean the foreigners are just worse than the Koreans? The only people the foreigners can blame for being behind is theirselves, if they worked harder they would play better.
you can practice as much as you want but if you dont have alot of high level players to discuss the game with you wont improve as fast as other players
Considering that MMA and others on SlayerS said that Thorzain is one of the best people to talk about the game with, why is that a problem? Are there really not enough high level foreigners that can throw ideas and strategies off eachother, or do they just not do so?
On June 06 2012 21:33 Calis5 wrote: Its people like the OP that gets terran nerfed (the objectively hardest race played by the best koreans) and Protoss/Zerg buffed (the go to choice for foreigners because you can just a-move)
How did you manage to insert a balance whine in this thread ? Seriously you're a genius :D
I'm completely serious, blizzard balances terran around the likes of MKP and MVP and blizzard balances zerg/protoss around NA 'pros'
While I don't agree with your balance whining, I somewhat agree with your view on Blizzard :p
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
All this stuff points to the team management. How about the management steps up their game and actually creates practice partner contacts with other teams and people. :p
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
You mean the foreigners are just worse than the Koreans? The only people the foreigners can blame for being behind is theirselves, if they worked harder they would play better.
you can practice as much as you want but if you dont have alot of high level players to discuss the game with you wont improve as fast as other players
Considering that MMA and others on SlayerS said that Thorzain is one of the best people to talk about the game with, why is that a problem? Are there really not enough high level foreigners that can throw ideas and strategies off eachother, or do they just not do so?
yea im sure thorzain got into alot of in depth game analysis with the slayers players, pls dude. u can talk to them about strategies but only at a very basic level
lol i love this kind of thread, but come on guys T.T let Koreans get their fame while they can, there are going to tons of countless players from all over the world to challenge Koreans in near future
You want fairy tales, soap operas and circus theatrics: giant vs albino, one-armed vs one-eyed, black vs trans-gendered, midget vs morbidly obese. Why are you trying to make a real competition into a spectacle? Let serious tournaments do what they do best: separate the best from the rest.
On June 06 2012 21:25 JebOfArabia wrote: Esports is a global phenomenon played on a global stage. Koreans are the best. Limiting the number of Koreans at foreign tournaments would end up creating a kiddy league for foreigners while the grownups duke it out in Seoul. No thanks. Korean teams are much better established and financially flush. Foreign players and team will get better as esports grows in NA and EU.
Look at the LoL scene, its success also come from the fact they can see much more western countries teams rather than 8 team out of 10 being korean.
Not at all, it's success comes from the fact that Riot's been injecting thousands and thousands of dollars to CREATE eSports in it's game during the first year and a half.
What would fit your demonstration more would be DOTA (first or second, that's not the point) which has been a game where several teams from all over the world competed on equal footage for many years (until the Chinese dominance started, and still, great EU and NA teams were able to match them very ofter).
So what if foreigners don't have the same conditions as Korean teams? If they truly want to be the best players, then by all means they should go out there and make those conditions for themselves. Yes, it will be hard, but if you want to be the best you will have a hard road anyway. Otherwise, don't complain about Korean loaded tournaments.
Koreans deserv to be there because they are the better players. I can relate to most koreans more than i can relate to some random foreigner i never heard of and that has no achievments what so ever. I dont like players from my country, i like players who play Starcraft II really really well and that, for me, is not foreigners but players like MC MKP MVP DRG. I dont get excited when i see random foreigners in a tournament that got there because they were seeded. It actually bores me to death to see foreigner play.
On June 06 2012 21:46 Doctorasul wrote: You want fairy tales, soap operas and circus theatrics: giant vs albino, one-armed vs one-eyed, black vs trans-gendered, midget vs morbidly obese. Why are you trying to make a real competition into a spectacle? Let serious tournaments to do what they do best: separate the best from the rest.
The lack of black SC2 pros is indeed a problem. I think MLG needs to invite more black people in their Arenas and other tournaments.
OP has a point tough, there will be less people watching tournaments if they start becoming too stacked with Koreans. And thats bad in the long run. Great for true starcraft fans, but bad for casual viewer. I allready hear it from my friends that used to play and watch alot of starcraft, that there is nopoint watching cause its too stacked with Koreans, they might watch 2 games from the whole night just because there is Stephano or Idra taking on someone big, but thats it.
Bolded part is just my opinnion, but what ive seen myself it seems to be the truth. Stack too much Koreans and atleast my friends stop watching. Ofc if its like only NA players they won't bother either, so its all about balancing it.
tournaments bringing the best players in the world to play in said tournaments, how dare they try to bring about the best games possible. But really, if we want more foreigners at premier events, we need more good foreigners, plain and simple.
My take: 1) How I see a competition: It's a system which facilitates the organised competition of participants of what is essentially a conflict of interests (in this case, a game), wherin the winners are revealed through a series of trials which test and quantify their ability to reach their goals on relatively equal grounds. The koreans got where they are in this game by the merrits of their skill. Are you suggesting that we remove "competition" in favor of.. what? I view this as a way of rigging the game. Lets not segment the Starcraft competitive scene with these austerity measures which would basically damage the relevance of prominent foreign competitions such as MLG and IPL. Why stop there? If we continue your line of thought why dont we just award first place to someone like WhiteRa or Idra or something. That would totally bring the viewers! 2) You compare MLG with WCG in its prime... Imho WCG resembled a world cup more than anything. MLG resembles a sort of league: player statistics are carried through the tournaments; it happens much more frequently, hence its provides for a more liquidated and constant illustration of player skill, which in my opinion SHOULD be used to enhance the competition by basing player participation on actual acomplishment.
On June 06 2012 21:48 stfouri wrote: OP has a point tough, there will be less people watching tournaments if they start becoming too stacked with Koreans. And thats bad in the long run. Great for true starcraft fans, but bad for casual viewer. I allready hear it from my friends that used to play and watch alot of starcraft, that there is nopoint watching cause its too stacked with Koreans, they might watch 2 games from the whole night just because there is Stephano or Idra taking on someone big, but thats it.
Bolded part is just my opinnion, but what ive seen myself it seems to be the truth. Stack too much Koreans and atleast my friends stop watching. Ofc if its like only NA players they won't bother either, so its all about balancing it.
Your bolded part is a good thing, if people aren't fans of starcraft then I don't care what they think.
If every tournament not named OSL/Proleague/GSTL/GSL closed down tomorrow I would be satisfied with just the korean leagues easily. It's a ton of content by itself.
Please go ahead and set up your own league with you own rules then, if you don't want to see Koreans win.
I don't see why a better player should be restricted from competing just because he/she happened to be born in Korea. And i certainly don't see why somebody should have an easier shot at winning, just because you got a bigger emotional connection towards the person.
The underlying racism - whether you realise it or not - in your op is a disgrace for every form of competition.
Dude, MLG is from one of the most capitalistic countries of the world, they think money>equality. I don't know how you missed it, but it is true and I'm afraid it wont change.
That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1" Makes no sense. Of course there should be events where the foreigners could play against each other without the koreans, but banning them from already international events would just ruin everything. Apart from that, I love me some FvK matches
Why should I care if there is no non-korean players in top 10 ? For me the koreans are the same as the americans, the germans, the french, the dutch, the swedes etc. They are not bulgarians so all of them are foreigners for me. MLG should deliver the best entertainment / best games possible. Koreans give you that so I can't see the logic in replacing them with non-koreans with lesser skill. Also the anology with WCG is comletely out of place. WCG is competition between the nations. MLG is individual competition.
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
People asking for a limited number of Koreans at major tournaments, get a life! See what I did there?
I see what you tried yes, but you failed. Talking about racism in a topic/conversation like this is just out of proportion.
Someone wants to limit the number of people major tournaments because of their nationality, but it's out of proportion to talk about nationalism/racism? Yeah you are so damn right.
"How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day?" Racism? Get a life.
I do miss seeing the foreigner underdogs making there way through the open bracket at MLG now they have an even smaller chance than they did a year ago. Koreans are better because they have these tight practice regimes and put almost all of their time into it. Yes there are some foreigner team houses but they even so do not have the same dynamics seen in Korean team houses. It is a lot harder for new foreigners to make a name for them selves these days with the amount of Koreans that participate in tournaments like MLG and IPL. It is difficult as the Koreans do practice incredibly hard and do deserve a chance to play in these tournaments, especially if they are flying all the way to play as well. Though it would be nice to see the foreigners do as well and not all be completely out matched by Koreans. Obviously that is again due to time put into training.
I dont know I have very mixed views on this subject, it would be nice for foreigners to have their own GSL kind of like what i thought NASL would be.
There are still foreign-dominated tournaments and more could be created. Why does MLG have to fit that mold? They want to be the premier western tournament and they do that by having the highest level of competition. GSLv2 is what they basically want to be, as GSL is the premier SC league right now.
Variety in tournaments is great and not everything should be an MLG or GSL. HSC is a great tournament but not everything should be like that either.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
You mean the foreigners are just worse than the Koreans? The only people the foreigners can blame for being behind is theirselves, if they worked harder they would play better.
you can practice as much as you want but if you dont have alot of high level players to discuss the game with you wont improve as fast as other players
Considering that MMA and others on SlayerS said that Thorzain is one of the best people to talk about the game with, why is that a problem? Are there really not enough high level foreigners that can throw ideas and strategies off eachother, or do they just not do so?
The difference is: For each one Thorzain, there is the whole SlayerS team to talk to. That is, if you are a Korean. Naniwa mentioned their national pride, which puts an inherent advantage to collaboration.
Yes, the western scene could organize themselves better. But things are different here. MLG, IEM and DH are mostly not pre-scheduled matches against specific opponents. There are too many players to prepare for, while such thing is possible for GSL. Let's say, Naniwa has an upcoming match against someone specific, chances are slim he'll get any significant intelligence from the other Koreans.
In the west, there is a higher priority on your own team brand. So while "banning" is simply a bad idea, foreigners should be encouraged to work together more tightly and in a organized manner. The dfference between the two scenes is not only skill and practice. But skill, practice and access to information
On June 06 2012 21:48 stfouri wrote: OP has a point tough, there will be less people watching tournaments if they start becoming too stacked with Koreans. And thats bad in the long run. Great for true starcraft fans, but bad for casual viewer. I allready hear it from my friends that used to play and watch alot of starcraft, that there is nopoint watching cause its too stacked with Koreans, they might watch 2 games from the whole night just because there is Stephano or Idra taking on someone big, but thats it.
Bolded part is just my opinnion, but what ive seen myself it seems to be the truth. Stack too much Koreans and atleast my friends stop watching. Ofc if its like only NA players they won't bother either, so its all about balancing it.
I understand this POV, but if you want to have a legitimate tournament with a wider range of nationalities, you need infrastucture + players willing to move into team houses and such or make MLG foreigner only. if you invite foreigners who didn't deserve to be there, it'll be just a slaughterhouse and I don't think the casual fan would like to see foreigners getting humilliated.(well, maybe if the foreigner is IdrA, he have a ton of haters)
ya i'd like to see people from around the world do well, my home country is especially lacking in talent
But the sad truth is, they are simply worse. why they are worse is irrelevant, they are still worse. At the end of the day the true spirit of competition is what should be followed, not discriminatory policies making a boatload of foreigners qualify. Let the best players win and if only stephano can make top 8 every single tourney then foreigners just need to get better. You wouldn't limit african-americans in the NBA- its discriminatory for one and also makes the games not played at a top level
IMO a better solution would be some sort of league like GSL but in a different place like Europe or NA so that people who are in that region can compete, its just difficult and expensive to set up
I dont understand, evey single tournament we have a Foreigner going deep, be it huk, naniwa, stephano? It makes there runs even more prestigious. And when a foreigner does something impressive in korea, we see it like a revolution each time, even if that foreigner calls you an 12 year gold fanboy on a forum to "let off steam".
On June 06 2012 21:51 Paljas wrote: its like complaining that the best 100 meter runners are all black. maybe a little less racist.
not not less racist at all!
What I assume he meant is, while Black people dominate in sprint because of genetics (may or not be true but is a very widespread opinion) while Koreans dominate through superior practice regime.
WCG is basically a massive advertisment plot for samsung so of course they want to attract as many foreigners to change it up and to attract as many people to their product as possible their aim is to get their product out there but for MLG to do this would seem just plain wrong since it would take away from their competitiveness and become more a 'just a for funsies tounrament'. It's not MLGs fault that Koreans dominate, it's the foreigners.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: With MLG coming up this weekend we have another one of our biggest events and it is totally dominated by Koreans again.
Because they performed better.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Lately every MLG and IPL have been totally Korean dominated
Because they perform better.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: and that makes it just so much less interesting.
For you.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Yes I love to watch GSL, I also like to watch Broodwar OSL but when Im watching an international tournament it should be INTERNATIONAL.
In your opinion, so write a blog or cry into the pillow.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Do you know what Koreans did when they hosted their first international tournament (WCG)? They didnt allow more than 3 players from every country to avoid a bracket with 31 Koreans in the top 32. They knew that most people would not be interested in watching a 2nd OSL which is run on 2 days. What did they do instead? They created a tournament which greatly supported esport in dozens of countries for almost a decade.
Where are they now?
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote:How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Your problem with distinguishing people of other race is a touching story and almost as sad as the fact that you're watching SC2 not primarily for the gameplay.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Casual viewers know the top foreigners and a few Koreans like MC.
Then they'll get a great chance of getting to know other Korean players at the MLG.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: What makes GSL so great is the incredible level of play and the hard competition. What has made MLG the best tournament in the past was the great athmosphere, the interesting storylines, rivalries etc. and also the great games of course.
So, there can't be storylines and rivalries between Koreans? You're genuinely that narrow minded or just racist?
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: But really, in 2012 most of that is gone.
Because your favourite player didn't make it to the bracket?
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Yes the level of play is awesome, but I can see better games in the GSL every day. Why do you turn MLG into a one weekend GSL?
How do you know, you can see better games at GSL if the MLG hasn't happened yet. That's curious....
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Ive bought MLG passes in the past, I will still buy GSL passes and for Homestory cup – not for MLG anymore until this changes again.
Do you think, someone at MLG HQ is gonna change the way tournament works, because one unhappy customer threatened to not buy a pass? Grow the fuck up.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: And to all the people who say that foreigners should just train harder. Do you really think that it is realistic, especially with the BW pros switching to SC2, that we will EVER have more than 3 foreigners who can keep up with the top 30 Koreans? Its not.
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
People asking for a limited number of Koreans at major tournaments, get a life! See what I did there?
I see what you tried yes, but you failed. Talking about racism in a topic/conversation like this is just out of proportion.
Someone wants to limit the number of people major tournaments because of their nationality, but it's out of proportion to talk about nationalism/racism? Yeah you are so damn right.
"How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day?" Racism? Get a life.
Nice troll.
You are right, the comments about the noodles eating isnt nice, but thats just 1 line and im not so narrow minded i will not read the rest of the story then or only react on that single lin... i was talking about the whole picture which is to many koreans at major tournaments which i agree on... that has nothing to do with racism but just making the tourneys more fun to watch and have more of a "click" with the players
Well, I can provide the two reasons why I will watch MLG live this weekend, even though I watch 99% of GSL and GSTL matches and I'm located in a timezone that's rough for US live broadcasting:
- First, the format is different from GSL. Since this a weekend event it is often an endurance run, especially from the open bracket, you may see other types of strategies and players rise to the top than in the GSL. GSLs format allows longer prep time, which favours certain players (eg Nestea, as I understand it?). It's also why so many people enjoy GSTL alongside GSL: you get to see different players and strategies than the ones you normally see.
- Second, and most importantly, the live audience adds an amazing energy to the games. This is not something you get from GSL/GSTL. And it affects some players in amazing ways. Anybody else remember MMA vs MVP in the GSL finals at Anaheim last year? Boxers various series at MLGs and his reactions afterwards? MCs Murloc suit and other various antics? Cause I sure do. Some players get hyped up from the crowd and produce games and situations that stick with you as least as long as 'game/series with brilliant play in GSL finals'. And this is the Anaheim crowd. Those guys and gals are nutso for starcraft, producing a crowd response on a whole other level than other US crowds.
On June 06 2012 21:52 SomeONEx wrote: Dude, MLG is from one of the most capitalistic countries of the world, they think money>equality. I don't know how you missed it, but it is true and I'm afraid it wont change.
how is giving spots to bad foreigners a step towards "equality" ?
I remember when a friend of mine started playing SC2, I told him he should watch some vods of pros playing, he started with Destiny and idrA, then he found out about the korean pros and never looked back.
So it's really up to the person, if you care about the gameplay more than funny jokes and shit, you will enjoy the koreans more (atleast in my experience.)
Now of course nationality can be a different thing, but then again no one really blames you if you root for a guy from your own country, it's more when you root for anything that isn't a korean and claim it as your own.
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
People asking for a limited number of Koreans at major tournaments, get a life! See what I did there?
I see what you tried yes, but you failed. Talking about racism in a topic/conversation like this is just out of proportion.
Saying "random korean who likes noodles" is a bit borderline. Even from a german. (see what i did there?)
LOL fuck you, mate. I don't see what racism and a German nationality would have in common. There is NO RELATION in any way whatsoever. Not in history, not in present, not in the future. I would go so far as to say that there has never been human being on this planet who was a racist and called himself a German. Just doesn't happen.
If allowing only the highest level of competition to survive would kill the scene, this isnt a scene worth saving. If Koreans are the best, then EVERY spot in every tournament should go to the koreans. And if that means the death of sc2 esports? Then maybe thats for the best.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
What does this have to do with anything? So koreans shouldn't practice as much because foreigners can't keep up and it isn't fair or what is your point?
i write my opinion then i stop posting,
1. 99% of all practice replays with any korean players will be leaked if ur a foreigner unless ur in the same team 2. They will always prioritize korean players over foreign players even if they are in other teams. ( Korean pride ) 3. Its not the same outside korea because there is so few good players and no teamhouses in the same way.. the eg house is in america and its the only one there which makes it useless in terms of getting better practice than sitting at home.
these are just my experiences. ladder is still good practice but not optimal
just letting of some steam i guess . have fun 12 year old fans whos comments i wont be reading!
Well the koreans want to maintain their superiority. It's a natural move I guess, especially if you look how close the korean players are with each other regardless of teams. If non-Korean players out there would stick more together, they may could improve a lot more. And you really don't need team houses for that. In an age of skype, teamspeak, etc. you can allways talk about starcraft to people around the globe, if you want to. You just need to organise your stuff. Korean teams are much better organised, than foreign teams. They have real coaches and might help each other out a lot more while practicing. What you hear is, that foreign teams have more money than korean ones. So I ask myself, why they don't invest in infrastructure and staff to improve their practice? Watching TL in the GSTL without a coach was kinda embarassing to be honest. And when I talk about infrastructure I also mean online infrastructure. You don't need to run team houses to have practice shedules, team meetings, strategical discussions etc.. It may be harder, but it is very well possible to emulate those things online. And if non Korean teams and players are willing to commit a little more to esport like some players, who went abroad to korea allready did, they could very well keep up with the koreans.
On June 06 2012 22:00 AlvisSP wrote: Well, I can provide the two reasons why I will watch MLG live this weekend, even though I watch 99% of GSL and GSTL matches and I'm located in a timezone that's rough for US live broadcasting:
- First, the format is different from GSL. Since this a weekend event it is often an endurance run, especially from the open bracket, you may see other types of strategies and players rise to the top than in the GSL. GSLs format allows longer prep time, which favours certain players (eg Nestea, as I understand it?). It's also why so many people enjoy GSTL alongside GSL: you get to see different players and strategies than the ones you normally see.
- Second, and most importantly, the live audience adds an amazing energy to the games. This is not something you get from GSL/GSTL. And it affects some players in amazing ways. Anybody else remember MMA vs MVP in the GSL finals at Anaheim last year? Boxers various series at MLGs and his reactions afterwards? MCs Murloc suit and other various antics? Cause I sure do. Some players get hyped up from the crowd and produce games and situations that stick with you as least as long as 'game/series with brilliant play in GSL finals'. And this is the Anaheim crowd. Those guys and gals are nutso for starcraft, producing a crowd response on a whole other level than other US crowds.
You are absolutely right a US-crowd cheering for the Koreans is absolutely amazing and they restored the faith in humanity a bit for me at least.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
On June 06 2012 21:59 DreamOen wrote: You cant blame the organizations because the players of some region are bad, its players fault.
So let's compare it to real sports, the one that actually attract a lot of people.
Olympic games, people from all countries are allowed to compete equally Football (as in soccer), people from all countries are allowed to compete equally Formula 1, people from all countries are allowed to compete equally Basketball, people from all countries are allowed to compete equally
We see lot of crappy players/teams during these events, still, we don't see only 3 countries represented in INTERNATIONAL competitions.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
you still dont know what you are talking about so why even bother?
guess its same old same old tho.. people who have no clue always speak too much ))
Ok,man,what are you waitong to explain it?I would wish to know what kind of conditions have koreans and foreigners.Its ok,that you know it,so some kind of info would be pretty nice,PLEASE
you just have to show that leagues without koreans can get a lot of viewers. In germany it does not work with the eps.
And in the end, 3 Koreans or 20 who cares. If they are better top 3 will be Korean and its ok. What is really entertaining that just koreans share replays with foreigners. Foreign players dont share their replays against koreans...y ofc.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
you still dont know what you are talking about so why even bother?
guess its same old same old tho.. people who have no clue always speak too much ))
Ok,man,what are you waitong to explain it?I would wish to know what kind of conditions have koreans and foreigners.Its ok,that you know it,so some kind of info would be pretty nice,PLEASE
ur right im sorry i explained it in the next comment! Disregard the first ones ;D
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
People asking for a limited number of Koreans at major tournaments, get a life! See what I did there?
I see what you tried yes, but you failed. Talking about racism in a topic/conversation like this is just out of proportion.
Someone wants to limit the number of people major tournaments because of their nationality, but it's out of proportion to talk about nationalism/racism? Yeah you are so damn right.
"How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day?" Racism? Get a life.
Nice troll.
You are right, the comments about the noodles eating isnt nice, but thats just 1 line and im not so narrow minded i will not read the rest of the story then or only react on that single lin... i was talking about the whole picture which is to many koreans at major tournaments which i agree on... that has nothing to do with racism but just making the tourneys more fun to watch and have more of a "click" with the players
That's your opinion. Write a blog, eat some ice cream - the rest of us doesn't care, because we are Starcraft fans and we want to see the best Starcraft games, so your complaints here are completely misplaced. And racism can never be tolerated, not even a single line.
As a side note, I can name several reasons of why women have a natural advantage over men, for example: intuition, patience, better multi-tasking, better pain/fatigue tolerance... and yet there are very few women competing in the sc2 scene, can't explain to my self why it is like it is right now.
It doesn't matter if a particular country (S. Korea) have a lot of good players also it doesn't matter if the scene is filled by their names, they worked hard to achieve their current status and we shouldn't dumb down "foreign" tournaments just because it doesn't seem fair towards our native lazy sc2 players.
All in all, practice is the mother of learning and basically we have the same set of skills (no matter if white/black/yellow/whatever) available to us, it's just how we "decide" to nurture them.
LOL ok so what if Koreans have an inherent advantage in their structure as some people have said? Lets punish them for taking all the opportunities they have and for putting in the commitment to be better. I could easily say that there are people in poorer countries that don't even get the opportunities that most foreigners gets...
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
Well if they limit the amount of US players as well than im fine with it
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
People asking for a limited number of Koreans at major tournaments, get a life! See what I did there?
I see what you tried yes, but you failed. Talking about racism in a topic/conversation like this is just out of proportion.
Saying "random korean who likes noodles" is a bit borderline. Even from a german. (see what i did there?)
LOL fuck you, mate. I don't see what racism and a German nationality would have in common. There is NO RELATION in any way whatsoever. Not in history, not in present, not in the future. I would go so far as to say that there has never been human being on this planet who was a racist and called himself a German. Just doesn't happen.
mate. Please try to understand. What i was trying to do. Half of my family is German. But saying something like "those noodle eating koreans" is as bad as saying "those fat german beer drinkers" or worse, making a very bad allusion to a country's past.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
You are the one who should shut your mouth, foreigners get good salaries(most koreans gets none) and much more opportunities to attend international tournaments and still get completely stomped by koreans. Lmao So you think koreans are genetically superior in starcraft?
On June 06 2012 21:59 DreamOen wrote: You cant blame the organizations because the players of some region are bad, its players fault.
So let's compare it to real sports, the one that actually attract a lot of people.
Olympic games, people from all countries are allowed to compete equally Football (as in soccer), people from all countries are allowed to compete equally Formula 1, people from all countries are allowed to compete equally Basketball, people from all countries are allowed to compete equally
We see lot of crappy players/teams during these events, still, we don't see only 3 countries represented in INTERNATIONAL competitions.
Your first two examples are wrong. In olympics people form a country are send form the country, not through a international qualification process. Same is true for Football.
I agree with the OP. If I'm not mistaken, I think that in EU football there is a rule that limits the number of non european people that can play in a team. There is nothing wrong with it and I don't see people "whining" because there aren't enough brasilians in EU football.
SC2 tournaments should do that as well, I don't see any problem with it and it's not racist at all. I find that all the tournaments stacked with koreans become so boring to watch after a while because you don't see "fights" like the old Idra vs Huk. There is no difference between korean player X and korean player Y. Their interview aren't exciting ( except a few like MC ). I was enjoying a lot more "older" tournaments stacked with the average non korean player. Right now it just seems to watch the same tournament over and over and over and it's getting boring really fast.
I prefer by far a tournament with player better than a competition with less korean. I don't care at all about the nationality of the player. I don't care if MVP is from Korean or Sweden or Madacascar, I wanna see him play, this is it.
Explanation: I like watching tourneys for a) good games b) players/personalities/stories
Now in regards to b) I feel a huge chunk of personality gets lost in translation. So much so, that I mainly cheer for the 'Zerg' Korean only because I play Zerg, and not because I have any actual affinity for them.
So MLG, wins for me because they have (had?) the right mix of personality and good games. GSL second because good games trump personality if you have to choose between them. Finally Dreamhack.
Believe it or not, some people get a lot of enjoyment from sports from knowing the players, their personalities and idiosyncrasies. Take this aspect out, and support will drop. People have suggested you don't need to know Korean to learn about the players. I find it difficult. The only one I really have an opinion about is MC (I don't like him). The other's I have no idea. Maybe I don't watch enough GSL, but if that becomes required viewing for watching MLG too, then good luck NA scene.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
There is some truth to TT1 and Naniwa's comments (although Naniwa is proving why he gets kicked off of every team he joins. I'm sure Quantic loves having you represent them.), but I do also think there is some truth to the thought that a lot of foreigners, specifically Americans, don't put enough time into practice and put too much time into marketing themselves as personalities. There needs to be some of both, but it appears to lookers-on that these players don't put enough time into practicing.
Who says Koreans don't show personality? Violet, dongraegu, marineking and MC always show plenty of it, in fact most Koreans love the crowd more than foreigners do when I see them on the main stage when was the last time you saw a foreigner do a hadouken, high five the crowd or put on other elaborate ceremonies? It seems odd that people act as if the Koreans are just soulless practice machines when from what I've seen the Koreans are better showmen than foreigners I dunno it just seems all the ceremonies and funny BM comes from the Koreans.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
Because obviously, we've seen more and more foreigners able to compete against koreans. And it's also pretty clear that seeing that none succeed, other will be motivated to continue working to win, especially when their korean counterparts do whatever they can to make sure that they can't. (Naniwa's previous comment)
this OP is racist and this whole thread is kind of offensive and pointless. Really surprised the mods haven't closed it. Can we please move past this foreigner vs korean bullshit already? Its old, pointless and going to ultimately make the community look ignorant and bitter to everyone else looking in. (read: hurting ESPORTS)
On June 06 2012 22:10 Fusilero wrote: Who says Koreans don't show personality? Violet, dongraegu, marineking and MC always show plenty of it, in fact most Koreans love the crowd more than foreigners do when I see them on the main stage when was the last time you saw a foreigner do a hadouken, high five the crowd or put on other elaborate ceremonies? It seems odd that people act as if the Koreans are just soulless practice machines when from what I've seen the Koreans are better showmen than foreigners I dunno it just seems all the ceremonies and funny BM comes from the Koreans.
Absolutely it just shows teh lack of empatie towards people with ... different genes or a different altitude i guess. Thats for me the deffinition of racism.
This nonsense again? Foreigners just need to step up their game and if not they just get rolled over( well not like they have been rolled so hard so many times already).
Koreans work harder and play better and hence they deserved it. I rerember Huk commented that the foreigners don't have much passion in the game and hence practice less.
Limiting the koreans number is plain bullshit. Once the BW pros fully transition to SC2 full time, the competiton will get even harder.
While having the foreigners compete with the koreans is exciting, but the gap is getting wider and wider and then pretty much the koreans will dominated the SC2 scene like they did in BW.
Koreans are improving whereas the foreigners progress is stagnant.
MLG whats that ? oh you mean the GSL on american ground without players being able to prepare enough for the games!
Overall its preference, I prefer foreigners, since their play is more entertaining and less predictable and sometimes has something new in it and aren't over after 5 minutes. Not that i dislike planned out series of Mind Games. But they are not on the level I would enjoy. Especially with the current map pool + loser pick without enough vetos. But when we talk of preference, the organizers have those too and can do what they prefer. And if it is a second GSL they want, they should do it. If its successful it means enough people want it like this.
The higher the level of competition the better. That means that SC2 is actually turning into a legitimate competitive endeavor like BW was and not a retarded popularity contest.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
If foreigners dont have the same conditions/opportunities as Koreans then its up to them or their teams to emulate what the Koreans do. To quote Preston Broadus foreigners need to either step up or step the fuck off.
IMO, Tournaments are a lot Exciting to watch if there are more koreans. For Example MKP,Mvp,Nestea,MMA, And all other top players so that we can see how foreigners can match with them. And look at the bright side, for example, Naniwa, Stephano, Thorzain Are some of the players that are catching up with the skills of korean. it is just the matter of practice.
Ps: People calling this topic racism and asking for a close of this topic, get a life!
People asking for a limited number of Koreans at major tournaments, get a life! See what I did there?
I see what you tried yes, but you failed. Talking about racism in a topic/conversation like this is just out of proportion.
Saying "random korean who likes noodles" is a bit borderline. Even from a german. (see what i did there?)
LOL fuck you, mate. I don't see what racism and a German nationality would have in common. There is NO RELATION in any way whatsoever. Not in history, not in present, not in the future. I would go so far as to say that there has never been human being on this planet who was a racist and called himself a German. Just doesn't happen.
mate. Please try to understand. What i was trying to do. Half of my family is German. But saying something like "those noodle eating koreans" is as bad as saying "those fat german beer drinkers" or worse, making a very bad allusion to a country's past.
Looks like the internet once again failed to transmit the irony in my post. I was joking, no hard feelings :D
Funny thing is that right now, the foreigner/korean competition is really good because a lot of foreigners seem to do what they should do: step up their game. Guys like Illusion have shown that you don't have to be Stephano to give top Koreans a run for their money. Seriously, this topic was brought up after MLG Anaheim last year, and now it's coming back... is this some kind of Anaheim curse?
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
If foreigners dont have the same conditions/opportunities as Koreans then its up to them or their teams to emulate what the Koreans do. To quote Preston Broadus foreigners need to either step up or step the fuck off.
how would you go about doing this? walk me through it please
On June 06 2012 21:33 Ktk wrote: Isn't this just veiled racism?
>close?
I'm trying to find some racism myself, I know it's there, I just can't quite put my finger on it.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
"How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if it's all about weak, cowering white men who can't stand up to their vastly superior Korean overlords and relying on their kiddie Code E level tournaments for hollow cash prizes that provide no bragging rights?"
There's a difference between being polemic, and being flat out dumb.
Foreign pro-gamers put a lot of time and effort in improving their game. Foreign tournaments and their organizers put a lot of time and effort in bringing in not only sponsors, but also the best talent they can find. Who wants to see a tournament where the top talents are excluded? I root for certain foreigners, but if they decided one day that they'd only participate in tournaments without Koreans, I'd pretty much lose respect for them. No one would support those players.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
Because obviously, we've seen more and more foreigners able to compete against koreans. And it's also pretty clear that seeing that none succeed, other will be motivated to continue working to win, especially when their korean counterparts do whatever they can to make sure that they can't. (Naniwa's previous comment)
Except that we have seen more foreigners able to compete against Koreans. Or are you going to ignore Naniwa's recent GSL run? Stephano's runs through other recent korean dominated tournaments? Foreigners can compete with Koreans, given enough time.
Ye, let's ban all the korean pros from attending foreign tournaments. Just because first ones are so good that they leave no chance for others to get any prize money.
On June 06 2012 22:12 FeyFey wrote: MLG whats that ? oh you mean the GSL on american ground without players being able to prepare enough for the games! Overall its preference, I prefer foreigners, since their play is more entertaining and less predictable and sometimes has something new in it and aren't over after 5 minutes. Not that i dislike planned out series of Mind Games. But they are not on the level I would enjoy. Especially with the current map pool + loser pick without enough vetos. But when we talk of preference, the organizers have those too and can do what they prefer. And if it is a second GSL they want, they should do it. If its successful it means enough people want it like this.
What the fuck are you even talking about? oO Ever watched a single game of MKP? No? So stop talking about things you don't have a clue of.
I rather watch top play than bad play. It doesn't matter who preforms the top play....koreans,non-koreans all are the same because they are gamers and i rather watch the better gamers win.
On June 06 2012 22:16 DidYuhim wrote: Ye, let's ban all the korean pros from attending foreign tournaments. Just because first ones are so good that they leave no chance for others to get any prize money.
yeah than lets look at the next best country and ban those that will seal the deal ^^
On June 06 2012 21:26 courtpanda wrote: "lets limit black people in the NBA we want teams to be more diverse and african americans dominate pro basketball"
I think a closer analogy that's actually happened would be the LPGA's attempt to require its players to learn English. I'm not sure what the numbers were back then (and I'm too lazy to look it up), but the current top 30 has 18 players from East Asia.
Okay, I just looked it up, and four years ago (near the time they tried to pass the English proficiency rule), 23 of the top 50 and 53 of the top 100 were from East Asia.
I actually kind of take a perverse pleasure at seeing foreigners getting dominated by koreans (especially stephano) . But if I were to do the good thing I would probably support better foreigner training houses so they could compete on the same level. I read another comment on here about how foreigners need to collaborate more, I think that's the right way to go. But because there are so few foreigners that could only work between teams that periodically compete with one another, so not sure how that would work.
It would be nice if there were a US only league...so that the players could actually make some money once in a while so that they could continue to play against koreans in MLG like tournaments. But the sad fact is few people would watch it due to the lack of koreans...the majority of NA players have now become faceless
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
If foreigners dont have the same conditions/opportunities as Koreans then its up to them or their teams to emulate what the Koreans do. To quote Preston Broadus foreigners need to either step up or step the fuck off.
how would you go about doing this? walk me through it please
Weren't you living at the type house TT1? What happened to that.
foreigners don't have the set up that koreans do, but over the past year things have been progressing with more and more foreign players (TL leading the way) going to Korea. Its a start, and if things keep progressing this way, they'll be able to integrate themselves into the system. Still though would you want the GSL to place a cap on the foreign players allowed in? As the foreign pros either develop their own system of practicing or integrate into Korea, you would expect to see many more competing in the GSL. Just give it time
AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
It's silly to compare MLG to WCG. WCS is more comparable to WCG, since that actually has regional qualifiers with a set invite number from those regions. MLG is about the best competition, the best players coming in and giving it their all. I highly doubt MLG is going to sacrifice the integrity of their tournament simply because foreigners "don't have the right conditions" to get better, and I'm perfectly happy with that.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
Because obviously, we've seen more and more foreigners able to compete against koreans. And it's also pretty clear that seeing that none succeed, other will be motivated to continue working to win, especially when their korean counterparts do whatever they can to make sure that they can't. (Naniwa's previous comment)
Except that we have seen more foreigners able to compete against Koreans. Or are you going to ignore Naniwa's recent GSL run? Stephano's runs through other recent korean dominated tournaments? Foreigners can compete with Koreans, given enough time.
I don't think the number has increased, Sure we've got Stephano and Naniwa now, but we lost Jinro and Idra. Some people are suggesting, that once the BW pros switch, there'll be no foreigner that will be able to compete.
This is like saying ban Spain from football tournaments because they win everything. Euro is coming up and I bet my money they're gonna own again, we must ban them because it's no fun otherwise.
You cannot have great storylines if you don't have the big names here. The players who make you go "oh my god, how the hell is he doing this?!" are not from NA or EU at the moment. They're from Korea. Unless you have those monsters at tournaments, you cannot have storylines. I mean what's special about foreigners beating foreigners? Absolutely nothing.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but there's a million tournaments with mostly foreigners in them, watch these instead if you are more interested in certain people playing rather than the games themselves. I personally think that the argument the OP brings shows how little they're actually interested in the sport of SCII itself. MLG (Major League Gaming) has a logo that is designed like the other big sports leagues in NA. Why? Because they wanna show that they're a legitimate sports league themselves. And what should the goal of every sports league be? To provide to best possible games. Not personalities but quality of play. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see rivalries, certain personalities and so on but 1) if you think that the korean scene doesn't provide that, you're wrong. And 2) there's nothing wrong with favoring this kind of entertainment more but you shouldn't demand that of an organization that is actually trying to be a legitimate sports league, which MLG seems to be.
And think of it this way, did IPL not have huge storylines with Squirtle coming from the open bracket to almost win the whole thing, Scarlett skyrocketing out of nowhere, WhiteRa and Stephano in the group stages? Think about what would happen if no Koreans had been there. None of this would have been talked about AT ALL because it wouldn't have been nearly as impressive. It seems to me like you're just not familiar with the korean scene and don't want to get into it because you already have your favorites.
On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote: AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
I don't think this is a good idea. Not allowing the best players imaginable to play de-legitimizes the entire game and its competitiveness. Any big tournament should be all about showing good games and celebrating/honoring good players. Really, what's the pleasure for a foreigner to win an MLG if he knows the only reason he won it is because the koreans (in other words, vastly better players) weren't allowed in.
On June 06 2012 22:15 RageCommodore wrote: Funny thing is that right now, the foreigner/korean competition is really good because a lot of foreigners seem to do what they should do: step up their game. Guys like Illusion have shown that you don't have to be Stephano to give top Koreans a run for their money. Seriously, this topic was brought up after MLG Anaheim last year, and now it's coming back... is this some kind of Anaheim curse?
Illusion is a Korean =.= and I am talking about QuanticIllusion. Stephano is an exception of the foreigners where he actually has talent and can perform well against koreans.
Unless it's reaching BW level of Korean dominance, I don't think you need to exclude Korean from foreign events. I don't really follow sc2 but wasn't huk/thorzain/stepano won events against korean players?
OP is not calling for NO Koreans. He's just asking for limited Korean spots. I agree that a tournament with mostly Koreans is not ideal. There should be diversity. To be fair, there should be a limit of how many players each team (regardless of nationality/region) can send.
On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote: AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
So How many Countries will participate actually? so America is considered one country so there will be a lot of player who cannot join.
On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote: AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
To be not racist you would need to also restrict players from the US how would that work?
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
Because obviously, we've seen more and more foreigners able to compete against koreans. And it's also pretty clear that seeing that none succeed, other will be motivated to continue working to win, especially when their korean counterparts do whatever they can to make sure that they can't. (Naniwa's previous comment)
Except that we have seen more foreigners able to compete against Koreans. Or are you going to ignore Naniwa's recent GSL run? Stephano's runs through other recent korean dominated tournaments? Foreigners can compete with Koreans, given enough time.
So 2 people represent "more foreigners able to compete against Koreans".
I agree with OP. These big international tournaments should have limits on how many people from each region can qualify/be invited.
Just like Champions League in football has limits for countries and it makes it more interesting to more viewers. You could easily make a Champions League that has only clubs from 5 best countries and its game quality would not fall but its viewership still would because lots of people would not be able to cheer for their clubs.
Same in Sc2, yes many people care only to see best players compete, but I am 100% sure much more people care to see their players compete, even if they get kicked out at the start. This also helps Sc2 players all over the world because they know they need to be better then other players in their country to qualify, not against 2-3 koreans and they will play for longer and try to be a progamer for longer. This helps their teams as local sponsors can count on more of local people watching the tournament.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: With MLG coming up this weekend we have another one of our biggest events and it is totally dominated by Koreans again.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Yes I love to watch GSL, I also like to watch Broodwar OSL but when Im watching an international tournament it should be INTERNATIONAL.
In your opinion, so write a blog or cry into the pillow.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Do you know what Koreans did when they hosted their first international tournament (WCG)? They didnt allow more than 3 players from every country to avoid a bracket with 31 Koreans in the top 32. They knew that most people would not be interested in watching a 2nd OSL which is run on 2 days. What did they do instead? They created a tournament which greatly supported esport in dozens of countries for almost a decade.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote:How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Your problem with distinguishing people of other race is a touching story and almost as sad as the fact that you're watching SC2 not primarily for the gameplay.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: What makes GSL so great is the incredible level of play and the hard competition. What has made MLG the best tournament in the past was the great athmosphere, the interesting storylines, rivalries etc. and also the great games of course.
So, there can't be storylines and rivalries between Koreans? You're genuinely that narrow minded or just racist?
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Yes the level of play is awesome, but I can see better games in the GSL every day. Why do you turn MLG into a one weekend GSL?
How do you know, you can see better games at GSL if the MLG hasn't happened yet. That's curious....
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Ive bought MLG passes in the past, I will still buy GSL passes and for Homestory cup – not for MLG anymore until this changes again.
Do you think, someone at MLG HQ is gonna change the way tournament works, because one unhappy customer threatened to not buy a pass? Grow the fuck up.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: And to all the people who say that foreigners should just train harder. Do you really think that it is realistic, especially with the BW pros switching to SC2, that we will EVER have more than 3 foreigners who can keep up with the top 30 Koreans? Its not.
Keep telling yourself those excuses.
LOL Pretty much spot on my friend ^_^, OP is crying about what HE would like instead of what makes the best tournament. Its like saying would you rather watch Austria vs Poland football match because they are the same skill level but all the players on each team are similar skill level rather than watch Germany vs Spain, which happens alot as they are both good football nations and have world class players. Its a no brainer, but im pretty sure Austrians and Polish people aren't pissed off about it because its always the same teams vs eachother!! It's how sports go!!! Rank 1 vs Rank 2 happens alot in the mens Tennis finals as of late too, or atleast the Top 4 have made it to the last 2 Major's (all be it Murray and Nadal win today which im sure they will) but people still watch even though that is the case due to them being fantastic at the game. Caraaazyyy post, and yes i'd side with borderline racist.
On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote: AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
So How many Countries will participate actually? so America is considered one country so there will be a lot of player who cannot join.
America isn't a country, USA, Mexico, Canada, Peru, Brazil, Argentina are countries, America is a continent.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
If foreigners dont have the same conditions/opportunities as Koreans then its up to them or their teams to emulate what the Koreans do. To quote Preston Broadus foreigners need to either step up or step the fuck off.
how would you go about doing this? walk me through it please
Set up a team house in korean with coaches, sufficient practice partners and schedules, basically the same as the Korean teams do but a for a non-Korean team. For something more specific than that I'm not the person to ask but my basic point is that foreign players/fans cannot complain about Koreans being more successful when the non-Korean teams and players are not simply copying their training techniques. If the EG is not good then create an EG house in Korea, or fully partner with Slayers and have all EG players live and train in the Slayers training house.
On June 06 2012 22:21 ninjamyst wrote: OP is not calling for NO Koreans. He's just asking for limited Korean spots. I agree that a tournament with mostly Koreans is not ideal. There should be diversity. To be fair, there should be a limit of how many players each team (regardless of nationality/region) can send.
LOL that would mean less foreighners not more loool you guys are so silly ^^
Surprised this level of racism is allowed on TL, I will never understand people that somehow define other human beings based on their geographical birthplace, it's really disgusting.
"Stop the best players from competing in MLG!" makes no sense at all. I would understand such opinions about national leagues, say in sweden there is a rule about having X amount of foreign players in your football team since it's a national league. MLG is no such thing, it's completely open to any citizen of any country.
If you want MLG to be a national league then make a topic about that, don't discriminate a whole country because most of the worlds best players are from it.
On June 06 2012 22:21 ninjamyst wrote: OP is not calling for NO Koreans. He's just asking for limited Korean spots. I agree that a tournament with mostly Koreans is not ideal. There should be diversity. To be fair, there should be a limit of how many players each team (regardless of nationality/region) can send.
Actually there are a lot of foreigners too but they do not get deep in the run. So why blame koreans? We as foreigners should just practice more.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote: AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
So How many Countries will participate actually? so America is considered one country so there will be a lot of player who cannot join.
Good. Then the best 10 players from US will come. And the best 10 players from Korea will come. We will have a GLOBAL tournament full of skill instead of low level all over the place players + KOREA.
Tournaments should want to target the global market not only Korea and the fans of Korea.
the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
On June 06 2012 22:20 DarkLordOlli wrote: And think of it this way, did IPL not have huge storylines with Squirtle coming from the open bracket to almost win the whole thing, Scarlett skyrocketing out of nowhere, WhiteRa and Stephano in the group stages? Think about what would happen if no Koreans had been there. None of this would have been talked about AT ALL because it wouldn't have been nearly as impressive. It seems to me like you're just not familiar with the korean scene and don't want to get into it because you already have your favorites.
Excellent post. It also has the benefit of being completely organic and not contrived.
If you just want personality and storylines, WWF is that way. This is a competitive game, not a TV show.
On June 06 2012 22:12 FeyFey wrote: MLG whats that ? oh you mean the GSL on american ground without players being able to prepare enough for the games!
Overall its preference, I prefer foreigners, since their play is more entertaining and less predictable and sometimes has something new in it and aren't over after 5 minutes. Not that i dislike planned out series of Mind Games. But they are not on the level I would enjoy. Especially with the current map pool + loser pick without enough vetos. But when we talk of preference, the organizers have those too and can do what they prefer. And if it is a second GSL they want, they should do it. If its successful it means enough people want it like this.
More entertaining, less predictable, and innovation? That part alone baffled me, until I read your line on how Korean games are all over in 5 minutes. You had me there for a second
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
Because obviously, we've seen more and more foreigners able to compete against koreans. And it's also pretty clear that seeing that none succeed, other will be motivated to continue working to win, especially when their korean counterparts do whatever they can to make sure that they can't. (Naniwa's previous comment)
Except that we have seen more foreigners able to compete against Koreans. Or are you going to ignore Naniwa's recent GSL run? Stephano's runs through other recent korean dominated tournaments? Foreigners can compete with Koreans, given enough time.
I don't think the number has increased, Sure we've got Stephano and Naniwa now, but we lost Jinro and Idra. Some people are suggesting, that once the BW pros switch, there'll be no foreigner that will be able to compete.
Jinro's period of domination was during a period where the game wasn't quite as figured out. IdrA I think is actually still playing really well, he's just had a little bit of bad luck. The results will come for him soon. I'd like to see how young players like Illusion and Feast do with a little more time, not to mention a handful of other up and coming foreign players I can't remember off the top of my head.
That may be true, it's hard to say. But in either case, simply banning a group of people from one of the most prestigious foreign tournaments out there because they're better makes little to no sense.
This thread is so unbelivably stupid it hurts my brain.
How about we have a white only qualifier for the Men's 100m so that 4/10 starters are white guys who run it in 11 seconds?
Or how about we force the NBA teams to have at least 2 white guys on the court at any one time?
You know what, black guys aren't good enough at swimming, I need to complain to the Olympics and make them give free spots to black swimmers.
Africa doesn't have as good an infrastructure for making footballers as Europe and South America. If only Drogba, Eto'o, Essien, Weah and Miller had spent all day whining about the injustice on the internet instead of working their asses off and becoming some of the best players in the world.
Every single sport in existance is dominated by certain countries. If you're too racist/pathetic to enjoy Brazilians playing football, Aussies playing cricket, Americans playing basketball, black people running or Koreans playing Starcraft you really need to take your racist hat off and think whether you even enjoy the game at all.
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
Personally I think there are way too many heterosexuals in Starcraft. I propose a limit on all future tournaments until the gay community can get as solid a foothold as the straight community. As is right now, I've gotta say it's blatantly discriminatory to gay gamers.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
Because Koreans right now are better at the game. There's a lot more knowledge about the game itself in Korean teams, otherwise nobody would go to Korea. If foreigners lock themselves together in their houses and the koreans do the same, guess what would happen? Not a single foreigner would stand a chance against ANY korean anymore. Foreigners caught up to the Korean skill level for one reason only - SCII became more international.
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
People weren't anywhere near as intersted in them.
The audience for MLG's has grown phenomenally since they started inviting Koreans.
On June 06 2012 22:15 RageCommodore wrote: Funny thing is that right now, the foreigner/korean competition is really good because a lot of foreigners seem to do what they should do: step up their game. Guys like Illusion have shown that you don't have to be Stephano to give top Koreans a run for their money. Seriously, this topic was brought up after MLG Anaheim last year, and now it's coming back... is this some kind of Anaheim curse?
Illusion is a Korean =.= and I am talking about QuanticIllusion. Stephano is an exception of the foreigners where he actually has talent and can perform well against koreans.
So you're basically saying that Illusion wouldn't be good if he wasn't of korean descent? You're pretty racist then if you think that way.
On June 06 2012 22:27 RockIronrod wrote: Personally I think there are way too many heterosexuals in Starcraft. I propose a limit on all future tournaments until the gay community can get as solid a foothold as the straight community. As is right now, I've gotta say it's blatantly discriminatory to gay gamers.
I agree.
At least 3 gay players need to be seeded into pool play.
This is a dumb thread. You want people from everywhere to play, but you don't care if everyone knows how to play well. Here's an idea: Korea built their scene, if we actually care so much, we can build ours? Our fan base might care but our player/team base does not. We have just as many (more actually) talented players here in the west (and not just the talking heads you see with fanclubs and podcasts), we just don't have disciplined settings and good people scouting for the talent. I know complete gosus that don't even try to play this game and have more than one account in GM, yet no one bothers to pick these players up and do something with them. Guess what happens? They stop playing video games, or start playing other shit casually or focus on college. If we want a talented scene, we need to find young players with skill, PAY THEM WELL and train the fuck out of them. It's a hit and miss investment and you'll miss more often than you'll hit, but if you want a real scene, you have to take raw talent and build it up, just like good people in sports have to do the work and train their bodies to become decent athletes. If enough people/teams start doing that, then all of the sudden we have real "scene" and we don't nessacarily have to watch Koreas metagame to be competitive, we start making our own.
But, even more importantly, everything above is pretty much irrelavant: Who the fuck cares if the highest caliber players eat noodles or fucking cheezburgers. Just because you can't prescribe to another culture doesn't mean that culture sucks, it means your shortchanging it beause you don't know how to appreciate something you don't understand. I don't root for people because they carry a flag or speak a certain language, I root for someone based on their skill, their passion to win, there hard work, ect. You can make a story out of anything, but if someones nationality is such an important part of the story you are looking for in a sport, then it's a shallow fucking story and I could give a fuck lss if you or any other person ever finds it.
I'm all about everyone being able to play well, more people playing at a high level globally is good for everyone. But until we put in our own amount of effort to even hit par with everyone else, I could care less. When I start seeing large teams with B-teams within themselves seriously taking gameing seriously, constantly trying to pick up new talent and not cash out on e-famous subpar players while they can, then I might get more excited about western e-sports, because we'll have teams that can compete with anyone. Until then, anything else is a novelty to see how much we are missing par, or how strong one of our anomoly players are (players like stephano nani or thorzain who get far based lots of natural skill and/or hard work).
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
People weren't anywhere near as intersted in them.
The audience for MLG's has grown phenomenally since they started inviting Koreans.
You mean since the game was not so difficult and advertised that random scrubs could play it ? (BW => SC2)
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
I am. Most korean players don't get a salary from the team. It's disgraceful that Naniwa complains about korean's working together and their infrastructure when he gets payed by his team and many koreans who are better than him don't. If foreign tournaments didn't allow as many koreans to play, they would only have GSL for the vast majority of korean pros (MC etc would still be flown around by teams, but most wouldn't). The korean scene would definitely shrink.
Agree fully with OP. Watching Korean vs Korean is boring. I want variety. I can watch GSL every day, I don't need the same product from MLG.
If that makes me racist scum, then I guess I'm racist scum. I know 90% of the people here would rather see foreigners mixed in a bit more, even if they won't admit it.
Africa doesn't have as good an infrastructure for making footballers as Europe and South America. If only Drogba, Eto'o, Essien, Weah and Miller had spent all day whining about the injustice on the internet instead of working their asses off and becoming some of the best players in the world.
Every single sport in existance is dominated by certain countries. If you're too racist/pathetic to enjoy Brazilians playing football, Aussies playing cricket, Americans playing basketball, black people running or Koreans playing Starcraft you really need to take your racist hat off and think whether you even enjoy the game at all.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
Because obviously, we've seen more and more foreigners able to compete against koreans. And it's also pretty clear that seeing that none succeed, other will be motivated to continue working to win, especially when their korean counterparts do whatever they can to make sure that they can't. (Naniwa's previous comment)
Except that we have seen more foreigners able to compete against Koreans. Or are you going to ignore Naniwa's recent GSL run? Stephano's runs through other recent korean dominated tournaments? Foreigners can compete with Koreans, given enough time.
I don't think the number has increased, Sure we've got Stephano and Naniwa now, but we lost Jinro and Idra. Some people are suggesting, that once the BW pros switch, there'll be no foreigner that will be able to compete.
The thing is that Jinro and Idra (for example) are under performing (or simply put they need to step up their gameplay to be as competitive as they were). Also do not expect miracles from the BW pros switching to SC2, they are way way behind (i might add years behind) compared to current top SC2 players.
Anyway, we are stucked between two realities, one being the koreans that uplifted e-sports to the rank of national sport and the rest of the world who doesn't gives too much crap about e-sports (tho lately things are improving regarding it). Ofc koreans will dominate the scene for now and for a quite good reason.
Also I request this thread to be closed as it only brings up the worst aspects of us to surface.
Okay so we've established that we need the following seeded into MLG pool play for ethnic/gender/sexual diversity purposes.
30% white guys. 20% black guys 10% homosexuals 10% women
This will show Kespa that foreign Esports means business!
(by the way if anyone has any other minority groups desperately in need of some affirmative action just PM me and I will pass the message on to Sundance.)
On June 06 2012 22:15 RageCommodore wrote: Funny thing is that right now, the foreigner/korean competition is really good because a lot of foreigners seem to do what they should do: step up their game. Guys like Illusion have shown that you don't have to be Stephano to give top Koreans a run for their money. Seriously, this topic was brought up after MLG Anaheim last year, and now it's coming back... is this some kind of Anaheim curse?
Illusion is a Korean =.= and I am talking about QuanticIllusion. Stephano is an exception of the foreigners where he actually has talent and can perform well against koreans.
So you're basically saying that Illusion wouldn't be good if he wasn't of korean descent? You're pretty racist then if you think that way.
I am trying to say that Koreans have more passion for the game than foreigner and hence work harder than foreigner. Therefore they post better results than foreigners.
This is not called being a racist.There is a reason why Koreans outperform the foreigners.
On June 06 2012 22:27 Hemula wrote: Why this thread isn't closed?
Nah im fine with it, how else can you tell who is racist scum?
People love to jump on the racist train don't they.
I don't believe personalities translate very well across the language barrier. A part of my enjoyment of sports comes from personalities playing any given game.
Therefore, more Koreans, less enjoyment for me. Does this make me racist?
As a casual viewer i agree with the OP. I didn't watched recent IPL finals because stephano was out earlier and there were only koreans. I like GSL and i love GSTL but I wanna see my FAVOURITE players on mlg not only koreans, even if the game level would be lesser.
Random German 1 who likes to drink beer, if you want to watch foreigners play lower quality games then you can just watch the early open bracket losers games, and leave the late stages of the tournament for those that want to see the best players play high quality games.
Frankly a lot of foreign players should be glad that most of the customers that bring in the money that funds the teams and tournaments are as ignorant of the Korean scene as you, and also see most of the best players in the world as 'Korean X who likes noodles.' If most Korean's were actually marketable to the general eSports watching public there would probably only be like 15 foreign players with salaries.
There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
On June 06 2012 22:30 Dodgin wrote: On a somewhat related note, I feel like a lot of people don't actually like the game but they like the drama surrounding it.
If your primary reason to watch Starcraft competition is not the gameplay then what are you doing here?
Every other sport has his dramas as well and overall its just another interesting part of it. Low level players cant get enough out of the play to only concentrate on that so they choose to look at the drama as well. Every big and well known sport has that and that just shows how much the community grows. Its a good thing believe me.
On June 06 2012 22:30 Grovbolle wrote: The best players are more interesting than scrubs who can't beat the best. This OP makes little sense and is generally racist.
Koreans are better, is it because they are Koreans, or because they practise more and better????? It's a mystery...
Exactly, It is better to watch Koreans and LEARN from them
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
Nope we actually dont have such rules in europe where does that come from????
If non Korean Pros actually depend on Koreans to get better, then you know where the error lies. If Koreans work together and share replays, then just don't practice with them. You don't need a korean to show you, how it's done. How did MKP got so good? He had noone to learn his splits from. Dudes you just need to work together as they do. Share your replays, discuss decision making and strategies and improve your fuckin mechanics!
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
well that only means you dont know much about history
without a big korean scene everything will collapse. in fact if we go back to 2001, if the BW explosion did not happen, sc2 will be a pretty good single player/MMO game today.
I'm not a fan of people saying that unless you are blind to nationality and only, exclusively care about game quality, you don't actually like Starcraft. Also, the people calling those who prefer non-koreans racist need to shut up, thats an insanely stupid thing to say. For me, I don't have a problem when a Korean wins a tournament (though I prefer it if one of my favourite players does), and I don't think anything should be, or could be, done about that. What I don't like is when, as we have now, there is an international tournament with an overwhelming representation of Koreans in the bracket. It doesn't interest me at all, and I watch almost exclusively Korean tournaments outside of the major LAN events. The whole point of these LANS is to see many different people from different places come together to compete, not to recreate a sub par GSL tournament with the less entertaining double elim format, with extended series, over the course of 2 days. I wouldn't like a tournament if it was overwhelmingly Swedish, American, German, or Korean. As to what can be done? Who the fuck knows.
The reason Koreans win everything is because they train longer and better. The only legitimate way to overcome this is to train the same way they do. Foreign players just need to step it up. Excluding the top talent from tournaments is NOT the way to go.
It's MLG's choice whether they want the selling point of their tournaments to be the top level of play or whether they want the koreans vs rest of the world storyline. I'm glad they are currently choosing the first, as I don't notice what nationality a player is, but I can see why some people would prefer to watch the second option. So either way they choose will gain some viewers and alienate some others.
Obviously what MLG ideally want to capture both sets of fans, would be more foreigners practising harder and better, so more could compete at a high level. But as it stands now they have to make a business choice and they favour the highest level of play, and personally I'm happy with that.
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
No European leagues ban foreigners from any of our sport.
I think Russian caps the number of foreign players but this is a country where fans throw banana's at black players so what do you expect from those clowns?
I personally do not believe it has anything to do with practicing longer and harder. It may have to do with low level pros, but high level foreign pros practice a lot. The root of the problem is cultural. No one is establishing or wishes to establish to same scene korea has in the US or in Europe because it is culturally frowned upon and looked down on. It is as well in Korea, but in Korea they have more support to make it. I mean BW players parents go to their matches and get pissed when something bad happens, could you imagine your mother supporting you for a pro gaming career? This culture causes the players with the best potential to no be drawn out and therefore, the foreign scenes not getting the best players they can.
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
well that only means you dont know much about history
without a big korean scene everything will collapse. in fact if we go back to 2001, if the BW explosion did not happen, sc2 will be a pretty good single player/MMO game today.
So without a big korean scene, SC2 will collapse. Without a foreigner scene, SC2 will keep being how it is.
We're pretty much set to what's happening in the near future, we'll see what will come out of it.
On June 06 2012 22:30 Dodgin wrote: On a somewhat related note, I feel like a lot of people don't actually like the game but they like the drama surrounding it.
If your primary reason to watch Starcraft competition is not the gameplay then what are you doing here?
Every other sport has his dramas as well and overall its just another interesting part of it. Low level players cant get enough out of the play to only concentrate on that so they choose to look at the drama as well. Every big and well known sport has that and that just shows how much the community grows. Its a good thing believe me.
It is in some ways but that doesn't mean a tournament like MLG should be built around that. Competition should always be the main priority.
everyone is free to make a tournament to his or her liking, blizzard does national qualifiers to get players from each country, there are national or regional cups, tournaments for women... whatever as long a clear line is drawn that is fair.
the biggest events however, care for the best players, and that is absolutely right imo! (though i really like this world championship approach too!)
On June 06 2012 22:32 Bocian wrote: As a casual viewer i agree with the OP. I didn't watched recent IPL finals because stephano was out earlier and there were only koreans. I like GSL and i love GSTL but I wanna see my FAVOURITE players on mlg not only koreans, even if the game level would be lesser.
Hey man, my favorite players got knocked out early too. You know, MMA, MKP, Polt.
We need less players in general so that these three have a better chance of making it to the finals (instead of 50% chance it would be 75%).
My point? It's not that your favorite players didn't make it to the finals. It's that all your favorite players are white dudes.
In fact, the way you phrased your statement makes it seem like you would prefer any foreigner over koreans. And yeah, that is racism, or something equally as stupid.
On June 06 2012 22:30 Dodgin wrote: On a somewhat related note, I feel like a lot of people don't actually like the game but they like the drama surrounding it.
If your primary reason to watch Starcraft competition is not the gameplay then what are you doing here?
Every other sport has his dramas as well and overall its just another interesting part of it. Low level players cant get enough out of the play to only concentrate on that so they choose to look at the drama as well. Every big and well known sport has that and that just shows how much the community grows. Its a good thing believe me.
It is in some ways but that doesn't mean a tournament like MLG should be built around that. Competition should always be the main priority.
On June 06 2012 22:35 rushian wrote: It's MLG's choice whether they want the selling point of their tournaments to be the top level of play or whether they want the koreans vs rest of the world storyline. I'm glad they are currently choosing the first, as I don't notice what nationality a player is, but I can see why some people would prefer to watch the second option. So either way they choose will gain some viewers and alienate some others.
Obviously what MLG ideally want to capture both sets of fans, would be more foreigners practising harder and better, so more could compete at a high level. But as it stands now they have to make a business choice and they favour the highest level of play, and personally I'm happy with that.
That's cool. Most here will agree with you. But most here are the hardcore players. Choosing the highest level of play is one way to go, but I don't think it'll be the way to grow foreign SC2.
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
No European leagues ban foreigners from any of our sport.
I think Russian caps the number of foreign players but this is a country where fans throw banana's at black players so what do you expect from those clowns?
In France, we do, in soccer at least. And pretty much all countries in Europe do for players "outside the EU".
On June 06 2012 22:15 RageCommodore wrote: Funny thing is that right now, the foreigner/korean competition is really good because a lot of foreigners seem to do what they should do: step up their game. Guys like Illusion have shown that you don't have to be Stephano to give top Koreans a run for their money. Seriously, this topic was brought up after MLG Anaheim last year, and now it's coming back... is this some kind of Anaheim curse?
Illusion is a Korean =.= and I am talking about QuanticIllusion. Stephano is an exception of the foreigners where he actually has talent and can perform well against koreans.
So you're basically saying that Illusion wouldn't be good if he wasn't of korean descent? You're pretty racist then if you think that way.
I am trying to say that Koreans have more passion for the game than foreigner and hence work harder than foreigner. Therefore they post better results than foreigners.
This is not called being a racist.There is a reason why Koreans outperform the foreigners.
This has to be the stupidest post I've seen yet. The main argument for korean domination is the infrastructure they have; team houses, great players to talk about the game with and an environment that lets them practice all day.
Illusion is a player without that infrastructure who can give koreans a good run for their money, and he's still young. The fact that he's of korean descent means nothing. And it sure as hell doesn't mean he has more passion for the game. Hell, being korean doesn't mean you have more passion for the game. Grow up.
On June 06 2012 22:31 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: Okay so we've established that we need the following seeded into MLG pool play for ethnic/gender/sexual diversity purposes.
30% white guys. 20% black guys 10% homosexuals 10% women
This will show Kespa that foreign Esports means business!
(by the way if anyone has any other minority groups desperately in need of some affirmative action just PM me and I will pass the message on to Sundance.)
Where is the age diversity? According to the age distribution, we need
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
well that only means you dont know much about history
without a big korean scene everything will collapse. in fact if we go back to 2001, if the BW explosion did not happen, sc2 will be a pretty good single player/MMO game today.
So without a big korean scene, SC2 will collapse. Without a foreigner scene, SC2 will keep being how it is.
We're pretty much set to what's happening in the near future, we'll see what will come out of it.
unfortunately that's the inconvenient truth, *shrug*
lots of koreans gave up their studies and future careers to play sc2 full time. as much as I would like to see a "world cup" of starcraft, and believe me I love the world cup, it would be very unfair to slam the door in their faces. if you do that, they're fucked!
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
No European leagues ban foreigners from any of our sport.
I think Russian caps the number of foreign players but this is a country where fans throw banana's at black players so what do you expect from those clowns?
There should be some limit, to take it to a "real" spot like football/soccer and the champions league. Right now there are like max 5 english teams, max 5 german teams, max 5 spain teams while if the spot was completly honest there would be a lot more teams from those countrys in the CL... but since that is like no fun to watch at all, and small countrys/club should also be albe to compete its such a great tourney.. still the big/rich teams win, but that doesnt matter, at least the small teams could attend.
same should be done in sc2 imo... Jes, koreans can come but only like 10% of the spots available.. got nothing to do with them being korean as a person, but just having the bad luck that the competion in korea is so high.
I'd like to see some sort of restrictions on the number of Koreans attending events. Whether that's done by limiting qualifiers etc I don't know. It's difficult with MLG's seeding system however because people who do well get huge advantages in the next tourney and then a new batch of Korean pro's will come through qualifiers, so as it stands it's always going to be dominated by the best players, which happens to be 95% Koreans.
Just because I'm more interested in watching foreigners play at foreign tournaments. I'd rather have some diversity amongst the major SC2 tournies.
I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
On June 06 2012 21:17 speknek wrote: Speak for yourself. I don't watch tournaments without koreans, because I wanna see the highest level of play. No need for discrimination btw, OP.
This.
What you're proposing is not that offensive, but the way you're wording yourself makes it somewhat offensive, like the noodle remarks. What the hell?
I like watching GOOD games, and for that I need the top level of play. If foreigners want to be on par with Koreans, practice harder, move to Korea and practice more. Sure, easier said than done, we don't have the practice rregimes they have in Korea as there really isn't THAT much money invested in SC2 as an e-sport in any other country than Korea, but there's no other way to go about it.
If tournaments want me as a viewer, they'll have to allow anyone to join, and base it off skill rather than nationality.
On June 06 2012 22:23 shadymmj wrote: the problem is that if u do that, it will be a big blow for the scene in korea. why have a 100 gosu players when only the 3 most gosu can show up at international tournaments? and the other 97 live off rice and canned tuna?
So we should be more concerned about korean scene than international scene?
Btw, was it that long ago when tourney outside of korea were without koreans and people were still very interested in them ?
well that only means you dont know much about history
without a big korean scene everything will collapse. in fact if we go back to 2001, if the BW explosion did not happen, sc2 will be a pretty good single player/MMO game today.
So without a big korean scene, SC2 will collapse. Without a foreigner scene, SC2 will keep being how it is.
We're pretty much set to what's happening in the near future, we'll see what will come out of it.
unfortunately that's the inconvenient truth, *shrug*
lots of koreans gave up their studies and future careers to play sc2 full time. as much as I would like to see a "world cup" of starcraft, and believe me I love the world cup, it would be very unfair to slam the door in their faces. if you do that, they're fucked!
Isnt there a Blizzard World cup coming up? Once in a while its awesome but every MLG i doubt i will love it that much if they would do it like this. And it would be unfair to US citicens to have a limited amount of players if the tourney is in theire own country.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Eloquently put. Ignore this fact at your peril people.
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
No European leagues ban foreigners from any of our sport.
I think Russian caps the number of foreign players but this is a country where fans throw banana's at black players so what do you expect from those clowns?
Those rules exist in England too but have no effect in practice because every team was always meeting the quotas anyway.
It's a bit like saying MLG/Dreamhack must have at least 20 American/Swedish players in the open bracket. It's a restriction in theory, but it doesn't actually do anything.
No German, English, Spanish team wants to sign a Brazilian but is cock blocked by the rules.
btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
No European leagues ban foreigners from any of our sport.
I think Russian caps the number of foreign players but this is a country where fans throw banana's at black players so what do you expect from those clowns?
So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? /facepalm racist community.
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
I think Korean culture is very good at producing people who can dedicate themselves to one task religiously as well.
Can we move this to blogs so that I can rate this with 1star. OP is clearly just venting his own frustration/whining without any real thoughts. On top of that, the title is very poorly chosen.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
On June 06 2012 22:22 Nihilnovi wrote: Surprised this level of racism is allowed on TL, I will never understand people that somehow define other human beings based on their geographical birthplace, it's really disgusting.
"Stop the best players from competing in MLG!" makes no sense at all. I would understand such opinions about national leagues, say in sweden there is a rule about having X amount of foreign players in your football team since it's a national league. MLG is no such thing, it's completely open to any citizen of any country.
If you want MLG to be a national league then make a topic about that, don't discriminate a whole country because most of the worlds best players are from it.
Yes, you are right. Champions league should also kick out all teams from countries that are not UK, Germany, Spain, Italy and France. Then only the best football teams can play...
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
I've seen no statements on it, and I'd find it rather odd if it was the case. Born with faster hands or good multitasking? I'd love to see if there were papers on it, I just doubt there are.
On June 06 2012 22:38 Snoodles wrote: This thread is very sad. If you can't beat them, ban them right?
No ban them because they're stream cheating and probably hacking too. /sarcasm
That, and we need to set an international ban on practicing more than 4 hours a day. We westerners believe in human rights and minimum wage and all that shit, and koreans have an unfair advantage by practicing 12 hours a day. You guys are watching SWEAT SHOP e-sports, shame on you. I will only watch MADE IN AMERICA, local, no-added hormones, organic, grass-fed, fair-trade, equal opportunity, affirmative action Esports.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Nah the community isnt racist. Racists are low level human beings who like to whine and blame others for the faults of themselve. And they like to shout and scream for help.
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
Because such a claim is pure conjecture until it is confirmed through empirical studies. Until then, the simpler explanation is the more likely and more logical. Also, hand-speed, multi-tasking, and decision-making are DIRECTLY improved by spending more time on it.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
How in the world is this not racist? In more instances than not people are talking about 'foreigners' as white. Not their own country, but white. It's just plain ridiculous.
The bigger tournaments are more likely than not never going to have skin color quotas. You guys really need to get over it. They're going to invite the best and the best are going to make it through open play (foreigners have plenty of chances to get in). That's only good for SC2 and viewership. Who wants to watch someone barely better than themselves?
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Wait, I thought all we were talking about was the reason why foreigners weren't as skilled as korean progamers. And that reason obviously and undeniably is that the Koreans have better training regimes with better coaches, practice partners and stricter rules etc.
Now if you want to talk about WHY that's the case that'd be something entirely different. Probably something related to the difference in cultures, how video games is not considered a sport and is more often considererd to be something you'd do in your basement, alone, as well as how few investors dare spit too much money into e-sports due oto it not being a huge industry yet, and that it doesn't have extremely obvious potential.
Nothing wrong with that. I don't see it as Korean or Foreigner. I see it as SC2 player. I do not care where they came from. If they provider entertaining games and win, I might watch them more. Or even cheer.
The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
Well in a way it does and top level players or fans who actually understand the game will most likely watch european or SA matches.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
There's Norwegian football too, but I don't watch it because it's boring as hell. The skill level is just too low for me to ever be interested. Just like I never watch Playhem streams, just like I have only watched a few of the qualifiers for the WCS, just like I only watched parts of the Code A Qualifiers.
I don't find it interesting, finding the best of a lesser group of people. I watched 4PL Team league for Khaldor's casting and not for the gameplay, which was boring, to say the least. Examples.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
Anyone can tell the difference between MKP's splits and Kas's splits.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
Korea is a brand now. A tournament has to have koreans in it to be "legit" and that is lame. That is more racist than adding a maximum cap for players/country.
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
That's pretty rediculous. If anything, except the training environment, has an effect its that Korean children are pressured/encouraged to work hard from a young age. In fact the thought has just come to me that there's a possibly correlation between a country's success at Starcraft and how good its school system is (Korea and Nordic countries are high on both), I don't think theres any direct link, but its possible that children in the countries with better schools are more dedicated, or less lazy on average.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
The responses in this thread would show this is incorrect.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
If we are just trying to market it to casuals we could go the WWF route and make sure that the best storylines happen. Who gives a shit about the integrity of the competition if all we care about is growing 'E-SPORTS'
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Why are people insisting on forcing racism issue here, thats not the point. We are talking about a group of people who has much better practice standards than others. Look at Skiing championships and count how many people came from Austria, Germany, Scandinavia. ill just stop on that, trying to persuade some people who only look for drama here is not worth my fingers.
Usage of word foreigner in sc community is the biggest hint, if the footing was equal we would never call ourselves foreigners, simple as that.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
Well in a way it does and top level players or fans who actually understand the game will most likely watch european or SA matches.
Unless you happen to live in one of the countries competing. Then it becomes fun to cheer for your own. See the point?
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
far from it, generally speaking, women (no matter what race) should outperform men at video games (no matter which game it is) and yet we do not see that happening. That goes along with the can of worms opened by the OP. No, I will not have this kind of discrimination around. They deserve each and every spot they got so far in "foreign" tournaments. Just because they are better right now,that's our biggest challenge: to outmatch them. That simple.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
Korea is a brand now. A tournament has to have koreans in it to be "legit" and that is lame. That is more racist than adding a maximum cap for players/country.
No, a tournament has to have the best players to be " legit " it just so happens that those players come from South Korea.
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
That's pretty rediculous. If anything, except the training environment, has an effect its that Korean children are pressured/encouraged to work hard from a young age. In fact the thought has just come to me that there's a possibly correlation between a country's success at Starcraft and how good its school system is (Korea and Nordic countries are high on both), I don't think theres any direct link, but its possible that children in the countries with better schools are more dedicated, or less lazy on average.
I wouldn't say korean schooling system is good, but it's brutally competitive.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
If we are just trying to market it to casuals we could go the WWF route and make sure that the best storylines happen. Who gives a shit about the integrity of the competition if all we care about is growing 'E-SPORTS'
SC2 E-sport won't grow if it's only aimed at hardcore gamers.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
tiger woods didnt need to rely on practice partners to become great at what he does, im so fucking tired of these dumb generic responses when you dont even understand what the underlying problem is. keep your motherfucking tony the team tiger practice makes perfect speech for the next generation ok?
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
Good on ya, automatically assuming that no-one knows what a good play looks like and insulting the entire thread at the same time. Excellent.
On June 06 2012 22:43 RinconH wrote: btw has it just been "accepted" that the only reason Koreans are better is because they train longer/harder?
Isn't it very possible that they have some kind of racial affinity (quick handspeed, multi-tasking thinking etc,.) such as African Americans have for a quick twitch muscle sport like basketball or East Africans for marathon running?
That's pretty rediculous. If anything, except the training environment, has an effect its that Korean children are pressured/encouraged to work hard from a young age. In fact the thought has just come to me that there's a possibly correlation between a country's success at Starcraft and how good its school system is (Korea and Nordic countries are high on both), I don't think theres any direct link, but its possible that children in the countries with better schools are more dedicated, or less lazy on average.
I wouldn't say korean schooling system is good, but it's brutally competitive.
Yeah I phrased that badly I meant the quality of students produced not the quality of the system.
The only thing that makes koreans so "boring" to watch outside the GSL is because they simply have no name in the foreign world and I think those international tournaments are a good way to become a really known progamer for them. Everytime I see a korean it's is the same person for me with the same lame tactics and just sometimes they convince me through raw skill that they are worth to be known. It's not because I want them to be seen like that, it's simply the way it turns out.
But I don't see a point in excluding korean players because of them being korean. They are good players and they deserve to be the best if they manage to win such a tournament. MC, DRG, MVP, HerO, Bomber and NesTea are personalities and I love seing them play. Why not give another korean the chance to line up with them?
Also: This topic is stupid. Just because someone doesn't like it, it's not a bad thing and shouldn't be discussed in this way. I for one like Boxer as a person but I hate seing him play because he is highly overrated in my view, yet I don't open topics just for the sake of it. Pls close this.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
If we are just trying to market it to casuals we could go the WWF route and make sure that the best storylines happen. Who gives a shit about the integrity of the competition if all we care about is growing 'E-SPORTS'
SC2 E-sport won't grow if it's only aimed at hardcore gamers.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
The responses in this thread would show this is incorrect.
TL is pretty hardcore players. Most people are Masters (well if you believe that). That's 2% of players? Not a big market to aim for.
I find it hard to believe that all the people here have never experienced the thrill of rooting for the 'home team' in whatever sport. Losing that excitement is a big loss IMO.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
Well in a way it does and top level players or fans who actually understand the game will most likely watch european or SA matches.
Unless you happen to live in one of the countries competing. Then it becomes fun to cheer for your own. See the point?
Nobody says you can't have your own little local tournament. But who on earth would expect MLG, who wants to be the biggest premier tournament outside of korea, to cater to such whims?
There is obviously a market for regional tournaments, but it's not MLG's responsibility. And like it or not, such regional tourneys will not be as prestigious (for good reason).
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
Well in a way it does and top level players or fans who actually understand the game will most likely watch european or SA matches.
Unless you happen to live in one of the countries competing. Then it becomes fun to cheer for your own. See the point?
Yeah ofcourse if thats your only point to watch it than dont watch it they will change it instandly if the viewer count drops alot when only Koreans are left but its regulating itself. Becouse you know what its all about the money.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
tiger woods didnt need to rely on practice partners to become great at what he does, im so fucking tired of these dumb generic response when you dont even understand what the underlying problem is. keep your motherfucking tony the team tiger practice makes perfect speechs for the next generation ok?
People keep saying it because they keep being right.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ugh, these threads again. They always come off pretty freaking racist. I don't really see what the problem is! There are more and more Koreans with "personality or whatever the hell you are looking for" You talk about people being less interested, but stream numbers are getting better and better for these events and it seems to have no correlation with the number of Koreans in the tournament. The Korean infrastructure isn't even as good as it was in BW as it is today, though that probably will be changing with the next osl. Maybe you just wanna see white guys play? A couple of foreigners doing well in a tournament does make it interesting, but that would have lost effect if only 3 Korean guys were allowed to show up.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Even if foreigners had the korean infrastructure, do you guys think they would be abled to endure the practice regime? (i hear it is really intense, time wise and also somewhat tedious)
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your examples are terrible, It's a video game competition.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I owe no loyalty to a place JUST because I was born within some imaginary lines without a choice.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea.
On June 06 2012 22:49 pmp10 wrote: The "Highest level of play" argument is just hilarious. Casual viewers don't/barley play the game - how can you expect them to tell the difference? If the caster words are the only thing to go by then the highest level can be found all the way from low masters to code S. Unless you think that SC2 has too many casual viewers and should relay on the hardcore fan-base only don't talk about level of play - for many people it means nothing..
If we are just trying to market it to casuals we could go the WWF route and make sure that the best storylines happen. Who gives a shit about the integrity of the competition if all we care about is growing 'E-SPORTS'
SC2 E-sport won't grow if it's only aimed at hardcore gamers.
I don't give a shit about e-sports, I just care about SC2 and good gameplay.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
On June 06 2012 22:32 meadbert wrote: There is a huge disconnect between Europeans and Americans regarding this issue. In Europe it is common to have rules regarding the number of foreigners allowed per league and per team, but the idea itself is totally foreign in America.
We do not limit the number of Latin Americans that play Major League Baseball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans that play Basketball.
We do not limit the number of Europeans or Canadians that play on American ice hockey teams.
American believe in letting the best play regardless of where they are from.
ESL and European leagues can be the leagues that keep out some of the best players for representing the wrong country, but in America lets keep letting the best compete against the best.
Nope we actually dont have such rules in europe where does that come from????
ofc for 2013, FIFA make the 6+5- rule where each club must field at least six players eligible to play for the national team of the country of the club, to restore the national identity of football clubs who have increasingly resorted to fielding foreign players in their squad.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your examples are terrible, It's a video game competition.
WTF he is calling me a racist because I don't like a full house korean tournament and my examples are terrible? OMG this forum.
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea.
That's why they are all staying there since the beginning of SC2, right ? I wonder why we hold tournament in the west since all foreigners are in Korea, oh wait.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea.
Foreigners are paid more than most Koreans to be in korea, lol.
We need Koreans in the Big tournaments for sure just not making up 90% of the Pools. This is absolutely great for elitists (myself included) that love to watch the very best SC2 action. However it sux hard if we actually want Sc2 to grow beyond the confines of what is still quite a small viewership.
To attract more casual viewers it is critical tournaments create more balance and have more players from more countries attending.
TL viewers are elitist by definition as majority of posters are SC1/2 fans, consequently In my opinion TL viewers are not the best people to see past this issue to the wider context the OP has raised. Just ask your friends who might be interested in watching the odd game causualyl whether they want to see 40 Brilliant Koreans or 10 and more representation from other countries.
To sum up yes lets have the top 8-10 Koreans attend but not the 30 each and every time.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your examples are terrible, It's a video game competition.
WTF he is calling me a racist because I don't like a full house korean tournament and my examples are terrible? OMG this forum.
There's nothing wrong with your opinion that you don't like a full house korean tournament but trying to say everyone cheers for their home team is just wrong.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
Well in a way it does and top level players or fans who actually understand the game will most likely watch european or SA matches.
Unless you happen to live in one of the countries competing. Then it becomes fun to cheer for your own. See the point?
Yeah ofcourse if thats your only point to watch it than dont watch it they will change it instandly if the viewer count drops alot when only Koreans are left but its regulating itself. Becouse you know what its all about the money.
Well yeah, it is pretty much self-regulating I agree. The OP was raising the point that this could happen, should Korean domination continue its upward trend. It's clear many people here just don't understand or can't see this side of the coin. I think it's a point well raised.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your examples are terrible, It's a video game competition.
WTF he is calling me a racist because I don't like a full house korean tournament and my examples are terrible? OMG this forum.
Well, you are using going to war for your country, risking your life, and deserting to an invading alien race as a euphemism for koreans playing in foreign tournaments, it's a shitty example and doesn't work out.
On June 06 2012 22:38 Snoodles wrote: This thread is very sad. If you can't beat them, ban them right?
No ban them because they're stream cheating and probably hacking too. /sarcasm
That, and we need to set an international ban on practicing more than 4 hours a day. We westerners believe in human rights and minimum wage and all that shit, and koreans have an unfair advantage by practicing 12 hours a day. You guys are watching SWEAT SHOP e-sports, shame on you. I will only watch MADE IN AMERICA, local, no-added hormones, organic, grass-fed, fair-trade, equal opportunity, affirmative action Esports.
LOL
I have quite some thoughts on this topic, might post a wall of text again sometime today. EDIT: oh wait I just did, lol. Basically what I think is that competition at the highest level is needed for all the surroundings (drama, rivalries, great storylines, etc.) to exist in the first place. If tournaments started focusing on that they would
A) lose all the viewers who want to see the best possible games.
B) run out of drama pretty fast as people get bored by that quickly and then there's no backup plan (can't rely on great gameplay to jump in and save the day once the drama is gone because damn, we banned the best players in the world...)
C) hurt the scene tremendously. How would the Korean scene react? They'd quickly start closing their doors on us foreigners. And really, it's been the open Korean doors that made your favorites possible. Where would Idra be if he hadn't had his Brood War background and hadn't had the chance to stay and train in a Korean pro gaming house? The huge foreign prodigies are the ones who can compete at the highest level but the chance to see who can do this might disappear. If MLG shuts the door on Koreans and GSL + Korean teams shut theirs on foreigners, we have a separated scene where you'll never find out if Stephano can actually beat the best Koreans. And then you'll have a foreign scene utterly dominated by the few people that still remain from an era when competition was at its hardest, there will be a few rivalries between people you could never legitimately call "the best in the world" but you'll also never find out how good they really are.
I just don't see any good coming from this at all.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
Don't tell me what I am and what i am not. If England loses in the ro8 you have nothing to complain because your team participated. Would you watch only Romanian football just because it's better?
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea.
That's why they are all staying there since the beginning of SC2, right ? I wonder why we hold tournament in the west since all foreigners are in Korea, oh wait.
They all left because they were either A) Too bad at the game to have any success in Korean or B) Because they were half good they could make more money outside of Korea where everyone is shitty.
Every top foreigner could easily be living in Korea full time right now if they wanted to, but they chose not to.
Whether people like it or not, viewership does not follow skill and most people are more interested in players from the Americas and Europe than Korea. Which is why I think it is a dangerous path for the long term prospects of the SC2-scene to have international tournaments as dominated by Koreans as what we're currently seeing in MLG.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
Don't tell me what I am and what i am not. If England loses in the ro8 you have nothing to complain because your team participated. Would you watch only Romanian football just because it's better?
Yeah right...
I watch the Spanish league every weak and there's not a single English player in that league right because Spain has the best teams.
On June 06 2012 22:44 mx.raaawwwr wrote: So instead of foreigners playing better, we should not have Koreans in our tournaments? Then what is the point of a tournament if it is not to see who is better. You just totally undermine the whole concept of a tournament. Who the hell will care if you win a MLG when the real competition is in Korea? -Random player nr 1 wins MLG- Random fan goes "WOOOO"! /facepalm racist community.
Finding the best in a subset can be exciting too. Do you not understand that?
For example there's an Asian Cup for Soccer. Apparently this is pointless, because it doesn't have the best teams in the world competing. You should go tell all the players of the championship teams over the years their win meant nothing.
Well in a way it does and top level players or fans who actually understand the game will most likely watch european or SA matches.
Unless you happen to live in one of the countries competing. Then it becomes fun to cheer for your own. See the point?
Yeah ofcourse if thats your only point to watch it than dont watch it they will change it instandly if the viewer count drops alot when only Koreans are left but its regulating itself. Becouse you know what its all about the money.
Well yeah, it is pretty much self-regulating I agree. The OP was raising the point that this could happen, should Korean domination continue its upward trend. It's clear many people here just don't understand or can't see this side of the coin. I think it's a point well raised.
I see it, I just don't care. And I sincerely doubt it'll ever happen. Tournaments will almost always have invited players, just like MLG does it, and though there will be Koreans and Koreans might be 1 2 and 3 at MLG, there will still be top foreigners competing, that made their way through the open bracket or through group play in advance or through invites.
If the Koreans are the only ones showing good games, I'll watch nothing but the Koreans.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
The OP and others who agree are not racist..we just prefer a more balanced competition. I love watching Spain play and sadly I am sure they will kick Englands ass. I will still watch but 50% of UK viewers will stop watching when we are eliminated. Also very few would watch the Euros if it was 16 Spanish teams playing. That's called La Liga not Euros .
Give us balance MLG, NASL IPL, Dreamhack...thank you
Yea there are koreans even on the teams near that are international and that would be saying for their best players to not play, for example Liquid Hero or someone of that stature.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
Don't tell me what I am and what i am not. If England loses in the ro8 you have nothing to complain because your team participated. Would you watch only Romanian football just because it's better?
Yeah right...
I watch the Spanish league every weak and there's not a single English player in that league right because Spain has the best teams.
Ok. cool. But that gives you the right to call on people that want to watch only their team play? They must not be a fan of football buhuuu.
Crossposted in a blog about the same topic. My thoughts that noone care about
I think there's no problem with having a lot of Korean players to international events because these players are the best and the fact that they're Korean doesn't matter. There are more good Korean players because they developped professional Starcraft more that ten years ago and they have a real eSport industry with sponsors that are not from the PC world. In the USA or Europe, all sponsors are PC gear related or energy drinks / soda / snacks which feed most of us during gaming sessions. That's why there is more money in professional Starcraft in Korea than "in the west". Just as the college sports league and sports scolarships in the USA allows students who are good at a given sport to train in an almost professional environment during their studies and produce lots of great athletes in all sports. Their system is better, and the passion the whole nation puts in it allows these athletes to perform and be recognized for it. Nobody complains that there are more good American than Europeans basketball players. Nobody complains that Brazil and Argentina have a tradition of great football players. Hence, there is no problem with the fact that Korea produce great RTS players. If "foreign" teams want to be able to perform the way Korean teams do, they have to set up the same kind of infrastructure Korean teams do.
I think it's important to organize international tournaments, because it produce great games between the best players in the world. But if you want more "foreigners" in it, you should work to promote eSport in your country. Only a change of mentality regarding gamers and eSport from western countries can lead to this performance path. Because it will allow players to start training the efficient way, teams will have better sponsors and therefore the money to hire dedicated coaches, B-teamers/practice partners and so on. Because I doubt Razer and Steelseries, with the number of team they sponsor, can give them as much money as LG or SKT do.
TLDR : Phase 1 : Change mentality about eSport in your country Phase 2 : Wait 10 years Phase 3 : Profit
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
The OP and others who agree are not racist..we just prefer a more balanced competition. I love watching Spain play and sadly I am sure they will kick Englands ass. I will still watch but 50% of UK viewers will stop watching when we are eliminated. Also very few would watch the Euros if it was 16 Spanish teams playing. That's called La Liga not Euros
But we all watched Serie A in the 90s when Serie A was better than the European Cup.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
Don't tell me what I am and what i am not. If England loses in the ro8 you have nothing to complain because your team participated. Would you watch only Romanian football just because it's better?
Yeah right...
I watch the Spanish league every weak and there's not a single English player in that league right because Spain has the best teams.
Ok. cool. But that gives you the right to call on people that want to watch only their team play? They must not be a fan of football buhuuu.
If you get more enjoyment from watching random Romanian play football than you do Messi and Maradona then yes you are not a football fan.
sorry for lashing out im just super frustrated at not only myself but at how lazy, dumb, clueless the western esports scene is compared to the korean scene. when i think about the differences between both scenes it feels like were at least 10-20 years behind them and that to me is so disheartening
While many people watch sports (including e-sports) because they enjoy the games and the sport in itself, few (I hope) would disagree that if it becomes important to you who wins the match this increases the overall entertainment value of the match. Thing is that people often root for people related to geography or nationality.
To use a real sport example, the European football championship is coming up. The level of football is likely to be very high and I will probably have a look, but i won't really care who wins the games as Norway did not qualify (as usual). However, if Norway by some sort of miracle should qualify the next time the tournament would become much more interesting because I would have someone to root for (certainly not because their good).
Same thing with Korean only vs. mixed tournaments. I enjoy to watch GSL or GSTL because they provide excellent games but i only really care who wins if there are foreigners included. MLG on the other hand may not have the same level in their games, but the entertainment value is upped as a result of having someone to root for. If MLG becomes a korean only tournament this will serve to alienate those who primarily watch because they cheer for some foreigner ,while removing much of the entertainment value for those who enjoy both the game and have someone they root for. Thus, this type of tournament will only serve those who only watch because they enjoy good matches. This would probably result in decrease in viewers already following Starcraft while at the same time it is likely that SC will attract fewer new viewers.Besides, we already have top notch, jetlag free tournaments in GSL and GSTL to provide the highest level of SC2 games.
I watch GSL to see the best starcraft players competing each other. I watch other big tournaments to root for my "heroes" and not to see GSL 2nd edition. Because of that a good tournament has koreans(=the best players), foreigners, local heroes etc.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
On June 06 2012 23:04 mTwTT1 wrote: sorry for lashing out im just super frustrated at not only myself but at how lazy, dumb, clueless the western esports scene is compared to the korean scene. when i think about the differences between both scenes it feels like were at least 10-20 years behind them and that to me is so disheartening
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are exhibiting human nature. Patriotism may not be rational, but it sure as hell is a powerful emotion. You just want to ignore it. Good luck with that.
LOL yes the EG house, top notch practice on the na ladder and tl + fnatic dont have nearly as many practice partners as the other korean teams do
Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea.
That's why they are all staying there since the beginning of SC2, right ? I wonder why we hold tournament in the west since all foreigners are in Korea, oh wait.
They all left because they were either A) Too bad at the game to have any success in Korean or B) Because they were half good they could make more money outside of Korea where everyone is shitty.
Every top foreigner could easily be living in Korea full time right now if they wanted to, but they chose not to.
Not choosing to go to Korea is the more reasonable choice.
I mean seriously, you would leave everything you have at home right now behind, in order to have the chance to get better at this video game. Explain that to you friends and family, try to sell it as part of your resume. Do you assume the teams right now have enough money to pay for their players to be in korea.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
The hole point of fighting for a place and the people in that place is because you share a history together and that IS THE CAUSE!
That's why you care for old friends and family, because other than your history with them those people are probably worse than your average human on earth.
And from this we get to loyalty. But that has no place in your world where we act like machines where if 1>0 we choose 1.
On June 06 2012 23:04 mTwTT1 wrote: sorry for lashing out im just super frustrated at not only myself but at how lazy, dumb, clueless the western esports scene is compared to the korean scene. when i think about the differences between both scenes it feels like were at least 10-20 years behind them and that to me is so disheartening
Basically what Wolf said - "guess what MVP is not doing right now? Giving a damn about the drama happening on TL."
On June 06 2012 23:01 m0ck wrote: Whether people like it or not, viewership does not follow skill and most people are more interested in players from the Americas and Europe than Korea. Which is why I think it is a dangerous path for the long term prospects of the SC2-scene to have international tournaments as dominated by Koreans as what we're currently seeing in MLG.
This thread needs a poll. In fact, most threads that are ignorant opinions of less intelligent individuals should have polls, so that the community can show him/her just how naive and childish they are with their extreme ethnocentrism and whatnot.
Something like "Should foreign tournaments limit the number of Koreans?"
With options like "Yes! I support the idea of a foreign tournament where us white guys can have higher chances of winning if we place all the Koreans in one group and the one who makes it out plays a gauntlet of our best players - we will call it Code C. And if you do badly, you go to Code D. But if you win Code C, you're crowned as the current foreign bonjwa - which gets you seeded into Code B of the GSL!"
And "No! I value competition, I value professionalism, I value the best displays of micro/macro, the best decision-making, the best mechanics, the highest levels of skill, talent, practice and dedication."
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
So many better analogies than what side you fight for in a war.. People prefer to cheer on someone they can identify with or someone that they know a lot about. Say what you want, but top notch foreigners get more views just because they are foreigners, and since MLG knows this they will work out a way to factor them in some way. (like what they did with lol)
[/QUOTE]hen my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.[/QUOTE]
While you're at it you should petition the NBA to put a cap on black people who can be on each team. Even though the skill level would drop in each game, at least there would be more white people on the court at one time!!11!!!1
On June 06 2012 22:23 antilyon wrote: [quote] Fuck TT1, what the hell you want? You want to play on NA with who? DRG, MKP, MC, MVP, Losira and so on? Would you want them to speak english with you too? If you are practicing with NA pros, and you find NA ladder to be weak, why not practice among yourselves? If you have a team house, you will have the players, the discussion and the enviroinment. I don't see how this is any different from korean team houses.
this topic is so depressing that i no longer have the energy to explain myself anymore, i give up. u guys are right if i want to be as good as a korean player all i have to do is have the same amount of dedication and work ethic as they do. every foreign player that wants to be good at this game is going to have to move to korea and practice on the korean ladder if they want to be the best, lets keep this trend going for another 20 years and ignore the reason why we have to travel to korea in order to get adequate practice
Tiger Woods faced the same problems, but he didn't whine about it and he's the greatest golfer of all time.
Eto'o, Drogba, Weah didn't spend their youths whining about shitty African training facilities. They became some of the best fucking forwards to ever play football.
You mean they've been flown to France, Spain because they showed talent ? That's where they became the best.
Which is exactly what happens in Sc2. They are also flown to Europe at 16-18 which is well into their development.
Except they are paid and practice with good players while foreigners going to korea have to spend lots of money and can pretty much only ladder.
Foreigners are paid by their teams to be in Korea.
That's why they are all staying there since the beginning of SC2, right ? I wonder why we hold tournament in the west since all foreigners are in Korea, oh wait.
They all left because they were either A) Too bad at the game to have any success in Korean or B) Because they were half good they could make more money outside of Korea where everyone is shitty.
Every top foreigner could easily be living in Korea full time right now if they wanted to, but they chose not to.
Not choosing to go to Korea is the more reasonable choice.
I mean seriously, you would leave everything you have at home right now behind, in order to have the chance to get better at this video game. Explain that to you friends and family, try to sell it as part of your resume. Do you assume the teams right now have enough money to pay for their players to be in korea.
A lot of teams are paying for player to live in Korea.
Essien, Drogba and Eto'o had to leave their families for Europe and it paid off for them. There's hundreds of African players playing in the Belgian third division who it didn't pay off for. That's life.
On June 06 2012 23:05 Ethi wrote: I watch GSL to see the best starcraft players competing each other. I watch other big tournaments to root for my "heroes" and not to see GSL 2nd edition. Because of that a good tournament has koreans(=the best players), foreigners, local heroes etc.
Easy as that.
I believe MLG is aware of that and if its getting to much of a problem they will change it, but since then just quit the stream as soon as you dont want to watch it anymore I would be so excited if players like Select TLO Jinro would make it to the finals but i wont shut of the stream just becouse they are out. So its my fault they not only invite those 3 players competing over and over ;D
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
This is funny because the world cup does the exact thing the OP is talking about. They're limiting the amount of teams per region so more than just the "best" nations can participate, and therefore more people can get the excitement from seeing their team\country play. edit: Oh, and olympics as well
On June 06 2012 22:19 Ace1123 wrote: AnD banning Koreans is like racism. So The OP wants koreans to stay in korea and not allow them to join tournaments in Foreign countries because they always win?. That doesn't sound right. In fact If we want Sc2 to grow more, Players all-over the world should join as many tournaments as possible worldwide
A tournament is allowed to have a rule that says only 10 players per country are allowed. That is not racism even though it would be directly aimed to Koreans .
The travel expenses alone should set a soft limit on Koreans at MLG.
If you wanna bitch about something, bitch about foreign teams picking up cheap talent.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
On June 06 2012 23:03 Opera wrote: Crossposted in a blog about the same topic. My thoughts that noone care about
I think there's no problem with having a lot of Korean players to international events because these players are the best and the fact that they're Korean doesn't matter. There are more good Korean players because they developped professional Starcraft more that ten years ago and they have a real eSport industry with sponsors that are not from the PC world. In the USA or Europe, all sponsors are PC gear related or energy drinks / soda / snacks which feed most of us during gaming sessions. That's why there is more money in professional Starcraft in Korea than "in the west". Just as the college sports league and sports scolarships in the USA allows students who are good at a given sport to train in an almost professional environment during their studies and produce lots of great athletes in all sports. Their system is better, and the passion the whole nation puts in it allows these athletes to perform and be recognized for it. Nobody complains that there are more good American than Europeans basketball players. Nobody complains that Brazil and Argentina have a tradition of great football players. Hence, there is no problem with the fact that Korea produce great RTS players. If "foreign" teams want to be able to perform the way Korean teams do, they have to set up the same kind of infrastructure Korean teams do.
I think it's important to organize international tournaments, because it produce great games between the best players in the world. But if you want more "foreigners" in it, you should work to promote eSport in your country. Only a change of mentality regarding gamers and eSport from western countries can lead to this performance path. Because it will allow players to start training the efficient way, teams will have better sponsors and therefore the money to hire dedicated coaches, B-teamers/practice partners and so on. Because I doubt Razer and Steelseries, with the number of team they sponsor, can give them as much money as LG or SKT do.
TLDR : Phase 1 : Change mentality about eSport in your country Phase 2 : Wait 10 years Phase 3 : Profit
This post is great. I'm not entirely sure about the money part of it though, I think most Korean teams are actually having trouble with that. Incredible Miracle is one example here I think. Before LG got on board, they pretty much had to rely on partnerships with other teams (such as Quantic for a short time), Zenex is not too rich either I think and so on. What I completely agree with is everything else though.
On June 06 2012 23:07 Xpace wrote: This thread needs a poll. In fact, most threads that are ignorant opinions of less intelligent individuals should have polls, so that the community can show him/her just how naive and childish they are with their extreme ethnocentrism and whatnot.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
This is funny because the world cup does the exact thing the OP is talking about. They're limiting the amount of teams per region so more than just the "best" nations can participate, and therefore more people can get the excitement form seeing their team\country play.
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
The world cup does that because when the world cup was founded you had a ride a fucking boat to get to the tournament so travelling from Brazil to Japan wasn't remotely feasible.
And Europe gets far more spots because we're better at football.
On June 06 2012 23:04 mTwTT1 wrote: sorry for lashing out im just super frustrated at not only myself but at how lazy, dumb, clueless the western esports scene is compared to the korean scene. when i think about the differences between both scenes it feels like were at least 10-20 years behind them and that to me is so disheartening
What a bullshit, we are not behind we just got more to life then playing 24/7... western gamers will have a pretty good life also without or after gaming/sc2 while for the korean gamers its either making it to the top or have a factory job for 100h/week... logical koreans take gaming so much more serious and they can keep it going 24/7 for 365 days a year
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Yeah we should have those cups everywhere. Wait oh we do. Wait and there is a World cup as well. And the money given to the teams are equal to the amount of people watching wait this all makes sence.
I don't know what game you watch, but the one i watch (SC2) is about two human beings under nicknames controlling bugs and spaceships on a computer game.
I don't care (neither I or most of the guys who watch this game) if the human being under the nickname is a guy, a girl, korean, japanese, canadian or congolese.
I want to see the best games ever, every time. And if today the team infrastructure and sponsors favours korean players, let it be.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
I think everybody agrees that koreans have an advantage over foreigners because of the training partners they can have. The language barrier is present, and definitily hurts even the foreigners in korea.
Still, that is not a reason to close our doors to them. And even if in the past , doors have been closen to us, its not in our interest to do the same.
Then again, i dont make a living out of all of this, so who am I to speak?
EDIT; what im trying to say is that other things than practice regime (a lot of people are calling foreigners lazy, which is very hurtful for them, knowing the effort that is put into their game) come into account, and thats where koreans are best IMO. But still, no restrictions, we are worth better than that, and we want the best games!
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
The hole point of fighting for a place and the people in that place is because you share a history together and that IS THE CAUSE!
That's why you care for old friends and family, because other than your history with them those people are probably worse than your average human on earth.
And from this we get to loyalty. But that has no place in your world where we act like machines where if 1>0 we choose 1.
This may blow your mind but where I come from if a family member is an asshole we don't speak to them.
And I understand human nature, I'm not a fucking idiot. I'm a cognitive science major and I have studied evolutionary psychology. I am making a distinction between human nature at its most base and unreflective, and a higher normative standard that civilized people try and hold themselves to.
On June 06 2012 23:04 JinThevalley wrote: While many people watch sports (including e-sports) because they enjoy the games and the sport in itself, few (I hope) would disagree that if it becomes important to you who wins the match this increases the overall entertainment value of the match. Thing is that people often root for people related to geography or nationality.
To use a real sport example, the European football championship is coming up. The level of football is likely to be very high and I will probably have a look, but i won't really care who wins the games as Norway did not qualify (as usual). However, if Norway by some sort of miracle should qualify the next time the tournament would become much more interesting because I would have someone to root for (certainly not because their good).
Same thing with Korean only vs. mixed tournaments. I enjoy to watch GSL or GSTL because they provide excellent games but i only really care who wins if there are foreigners included. MLG on the other hand may not have the same level in their games, but the entertainment value is upped as a result of having someone to root for. If MLG becomes a korean only tournament this will serve to alienate those who primarily watch because they cheer for some foreigner ,while removing much of the entertainment value for those who enjoy both the game and have someone they root for. Thus, this type of tournament will only serve those who only watch because they enjoy good matches. This would probably result in decrease in viewers already following Starcraft while at the same time it is likely that SC will attract fewer new viewers.Besides, we already have top notch, jetlag free tournaments in GSL and GSTL to provide the highest level of SC2 games.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Wish these posts would get deleted, stop complaining about koreans they have as much right to be here as anyone else and probably more so because they put in the dedication to become good at starcraft.
I dont care about nationality of SC2 players. What I care about is only quality of games. In fact I watch Koreans much more often than foreigners. I just cant stand foreigners games anymore, unless they are top of the top (Naniwa, Stephano, Thorzain) - too unrefined play, too many mistakes.
Besides it is much more exciting when foreigner wins in tournament stacked up with top of the top Koreans.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are exhibiting human nature. Patriotism may not be rational, but it sure as hell is a powerful emotion. You just want to ignore it. Good luck with that.
oh come on. patriotism is human nature? it's all about education and school system, patriotism is not in your genes, at all.
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
This is funny because the world cup does the exact thing the OP is talking about. They're limiting the amount of teams per region so more than just the "best" nations can participate, and therefore more people can get the excitement form seeing their team\country play.
WRONG WRONG WRONG.
The world cup does that because when the world cup was founded you had a ride a fucking boat to get to the tournament so travelling from Brazil to Japan wasn't remotely feasible.
And Europe gets far more spots because we're better at football.
As far as i know the places in the World Cup are based on the members of the local football association, like the UEFA.
This is a really sensitive and complicated issue. I am not sure the OP did the best job in addressing.
I actully do agree with him though, to a certain extent. Some of the most fun I have ever had at (only been to one in person) or watching an MLG has been pulling for people I know / personal favorite players running through the open bracket. Early last year a really good high masters but not big name guy could still make a very respectable run through there.
Storylines and personal favorites are what makes a huge bracket tournament structure like the open bracket so appealing. I know these guys... either I have played them, or met them, and I am way more invested in how they do. It was funner for me personally when the game was a little less mature and a little more wild-wild-westy and these guys had a better shot. Now it is only the (more talented and harder working) Koreans who have a reasonable chance at doing well there, and it takes some drama out of it for me.
Don't get me wrong... the single greatest thrill of my BW/SC2 watching career was standing right behind Boxer in person at MLG Orlando during some of his pool play matches. And I am waaaaaay too excited about the KeSPA matches on saturday. But I do acknowledge the OP has something of a point
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
I wouldn't choose which side of a war to fight on based on where I happened to be born. If I lived in North Korea and we went to war with the US I'm pretty sure I would fight for the other side in an instant (assuming I have the knowledge that I do currently).
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are a problem. People who fight for a cause, regardless of country, are to be respected.
The same holds for Starcraft.
People who fight for their country BECAUSE its their country are exhibiting human nature. Patriotism may not be rational, but it sure as hell is a powerful emotion. You just want to ignore it. Good luck with that.
oh come on. patriotism is human nature? it's all about education and school system, patriotism is not in your genes, at all.
Human nature is a product of your upbringing as well surely? I've never heard 'human nature' to refer specifically to genetic makeup. I think patriotism is common and universal enough to be classified as human nature.
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
My rebuttal is that you're really really dumb. The world cup doesn't let non Brazilians play for Brazil either, what is this madness?
MLG is not a nation based competition, it is not WCG or the Blizzard knock off that's currently going on.
It's an open tournament like the US open or Wimbledon.
Comparing a nation based tournament like the World Cup to a non national based tournament is retarded.
I'm not sure why being Korean is an unconquerable barrier to being able to like, identify with, and cheer for a player. Stork's still my #1 RTS player, and I only saw him in streams and VODs with Korean commentary and through translated interviews...but I can still get to know and appreciate his personality and come to identify with him. Sure, it's not the same as having a foreign player who posts on TL, streams every day, and posts twitter updates every five minutes...but the lack of that hardly makes it impossible to get to know someone.
So...my advice? Learn about the Korean players, get to know them, watch their games, read their interviews, and you'll find that it gets just as exciting and personal as if you were watching foreigners.
This threat doesnt make any sence. The viewer count doesnt decrease in the finals so what does the people here do? Cry for help becouse nothing will change like this. If like 1.000.000 Koreans would watch the MLG and they only want to watch Koreans vs. Koreans and non others guess what would happen We are bitches for the viewer count no one can tell me something else. Even the commercials would be Korean then ^^
And im one of those viewers who want to see the best players. Damn me right?
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
And how is that middle ground going to be found if the entrie foreign scene collapses due to lack of interest from casual fans?
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
And how is that middle ground going to be found if the entrie foreign scene collapses due to lack of interest from casual fans?
That's not remotely what is happening.
And Stephano is the best any foreigner has been in relation to Koreans since 2010/very, very early 2011.
On June 06 2012 21:16 Hassybaby wrote: Damn people who practice the game more winning!
Right?
foreigners dont have same conditions as the koreans shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
The EG, fnatic and TL houses would like to disagree
you still dont know what you are talking about so why even bother?
guess its same old same old tho.. people who have no clue always speak too much ))
I'm going to hate myself in the morning, but...
I agree with Naniwa. With a lot of respect to EG, TL, and Fnatic houses, they are not run in the same way that Korean houses run. TT1 also has chimed in later on about the differences in practice regimes between "Koreans" and "Foreigners". (I use quotes because people like Naniwa are in Korea, and there are others (like Violet) that blur the lines a bit.)
It's a different world - one clearly illustrated in that picture of the Emperor at MLG. Everyone else has gone back to their rooms/parties/TL Mafia/whatever at the event, and he is still sitting at computer grinding out practice games. The system in Korea is set up differently, with a great deal of emphasis on practice and with supportive coaches. Players are doing more than just grinding out games. Look at the KESPA teams - classroom style meetings, strict schedules and goals, lots of coach interaction. You can probably name the coach of at least one or two Korean teams - can you do the same with "foreign" teams?
(Again, loads of respect to EG, TL, Fnatic, Ministry of Win, Razer Academy, etc - they're moving in the right direction. But I think they're still building the kind of support structure that a lot of Korean teams wouldn't even start without.)
On June 06 2012 22:48 oxxo wrote: How in the world is this not racist? In more instances than not people are talking about 'foreigners' as white. Not their own country, but white. It's just plain ridiculous.
The bigger tournaments are more likely than not never going to have skin color quotas. You guys really need to get over it. They're going to invite the best and the best are going to make it through open play (foreigners have plenty of chances to get in). That's only good for SC2 and viewership. Who wants to watch someone barely better than themselves?
What? Who was talking about white?! Don't put words in people mouths.
We want fair representation from all over the world. I would give 1-4 spots per country or region. 4 to Korea, 3 to North America, 4 to EU countries, 1 to rest of Europe countries, 2 to China, 1 to Australia, 1 to Latin America, 1-2 to middle east and so on. Qualifiers to decide who represents countries and then they fight each other to get region qualify spots. The numbers or representatives would change from tournament to tournament based on how players from their region do (like Champions league does it).
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
That's ridiculous though. You're saying you want closed foreign tournaments because you're upset the player you like to root for doesn't win tournaments. thats incredibly immature
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Koreans have a stronger work ethic for improving, and that is why they are the best. Find any foreigner who players 12+ hours a day (that's right, 6-8 doesn't cut it in the GSL). They're the best because they literally sacrifice the rest of their lives (including the free time to relax and do other stuff) to play Starcraft.
On June 06 2012 22:48 oxxo wrote: How in the world is this not racist? In more instances than not people are talking about 'foreigners' as white. Not their own country, but white. It's just plain ridiculous.
The bigger tournaments are more likely than not never going to have skin color quotas. You guys really need to get over it. They're going to invite the best and the best are going to make it through open play (foreigners have plenty of chances to get in). That's only good for SC2 and viewership. Who wants to watch someone barely better than themselves?
What? Who was talking about white?! Don't put words in people mouths.
We want fair representation from all over the world. I would give 1-4 spots per country or region. 4 to Korea, 3 to North America, 4 to EU countries, 1 to rest of Europe countries, 2 to China, 1 to Australia, 1 to Latin America, 1-2 to middle east and so on. Qualifiers to decide who represents countries and then they fight each other to get region qualify spots. The numbers or representatives would change from tournament to tournament based on how players from their region do (like Champions league does it).
In that case most of the games would be total shit.
On June 06 2012 22:48 oxxo wrote: How in the world is this not racist? In more instances than not people are talking about 'foreigners' as white. Not their own country, but white. It's just plain ridiculous.
The bigger tournaments are more likely than not never going to have skin color quotas. You guys really need to get over it. They're going to invite the best and the best are going to make it through open play (foreigners have plenty of chances to get in). That's only good for SC2 and viewership. Who wants to watch someone barely better than themselves?
What? Who was talking about white?! Don't put words in people mouths.
We want fair representation from all over the world. I would give 1-4 spots per country or region. 4 to Korea, 3 to North America, 4 to EU countries, 1 to rest of Europe countries, 2 to China, 1 to Australia, 1 to Latin America, 1-2 to middle east and so on. Qualifiers to decide who represents countries and then they fight each other to get region qualify spots. The numbers or representatives would change from tournament to tournament based on how players from their region do (like Champions league does it).
In that case most of the games would be total shit.
exactly....thered still be the korean reps winning
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
That's ridiculous though. You're saying you want closed foreign tournaments because you're upset the player you like to root for doesn't win tournaments. thats incredibly immature
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
My rebuttal is that you're really really dumb. The world cup doesn't let non Brazilians play for Brazil either, what is this madness?
MLG is not a nation based competition, it is not WCG or the Blizzard knock off that's currently going on.
It's an open tournament like the US open or Wimbledon.
Comparing a nation based tournament like the World Cup to a non national based tournament is retarded.
Fine. I'll modify my original post you replied to. It still holds true:
When someone from my country is in Wimbledon, interest in tennis soars. Of course the hardcore tennis fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my countryman is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
If the game is that boring for you I suggest moving on. Find a game you are passionate about and follow that instead. You can get exactly the same storyline kicks from any other sport/game, and the ultimate kick is when you love it enough that the underdog/upset drama is inconsequential to your enjoyment.
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
That's ridiculous though. You're saying you want closed foreign tournaments because you're upset the player you like to root for doesn't win tournaments. thats incredibly immature
When they make MLG US only they loose 80% of the online community if they make it US / EU only about 50% i guess. But not sure about it MLG has looked at that i guess.
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
Speak for yourself. I'm from Canada, and don't have a single Asian ancestor in my entire bloodline, and yet 99/100 times I'm rooting for a Korean to win any particular match because I think they're the better/more interesting/more deserving player.
And I'd like to address Naniwa's comment at the beginning: so what if foreigners don't have the same conditions as Koreans? African children don't have the infrastructure to train for the NFL, but nobody's demanding we allow a token number of African immigrants (who may not be as skilled) into the NFL. The best players will and should reap the best rewards, because this is a game of skill, not a game of 'oh, he looks like me, better root for him!'
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
The faucet in the guest bedroom of my house.
Lol, nice. I asked for his criteria of success specifically because length of time isn't a great indicator. But you'd be hard pressed to argue the Asian Cup isn't successful anyway.
Its pretty bullshit that at a foreign event, out of the 16 invites, 13 of them are Koreans. Of course the NA scene wont grow when there are no opportunities for their own players.
it's hard to be emotionally attached to most Korean sc2pros, there are a few exceptions but most of them showcase little to no personality, do lame interviews, have mediocre/horrible IDs and almost non of them speak English. Yes, they play at a lot higher lvl then average foreign pros, yet i'd still rather watch a tourney with the 16 best foreigners than the 16 best players overall. That's just me, no need to agree with it or hate on it.
How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day?
My favorite player is a Korean, does that destroy your logic OP? I am from America.
I like watching my favorite players play, and win.. I like foreign players, but if I had to choose, I'd rather see top notch players go at it.. if they happen to be from Korea, so be it. Wanting a good "mix" means that the quality of competition will be hampered from day one. You want your "foreign" player to win? Root for him, he just might.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
And how is that middle ground going to be found if the entrie foreign scene collapses due to lack of interest from casual fans?
That's not remotely what is happening.
And Stephano is the best any foreigner has been in relation to Koreans since 2010/very, very early 2011.
I'm going to assume you're just misremembering the dates of Stephano's big victories (IPL 3 wasn't until October 2011).
How was Stephano the best foreigner during a period in which he wasn't winning anything important and Idra, Jinro, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa were all enjoying vastly more success (ordered very roughly in terms of when they saw their success during the period you're talking about)?
On June 06 2012 23:27 sickle wrote: Its pretty bullshit that at a foreign event, out of the 16 invites, 13 of them are Koreans. Of course the NA scene wont grow when there are no opportunities for their own players.
Those " invites " qualified through the Spring Arena's and they qualified for the Spring Arena's through online qualifiers, NO ONE was invited.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
And how is that middle ground going to be found if the entrie foreign scene collapses due to lack of interest from casual fans?
That's not remotely what is happening.
And Stephano is the best any foreigner has been in relation to Koreans since 2010/very, very early 2011.
I'm going to assume you're just misremembering the dates of Stephano's big victories (IPL 3 wasn't until October 2011).
How was Stephano the best foreigner during a period in which he wasn't winning anything important and Idra, Jinro, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa were all enjoying vastly more success (ordered very roughly in terms of when they saw their success during the period you're talking about)?
On June 06 2012 23:27 sickle wrote: Its pretty bullshit that at a foreign event, out of the 16 invites, 13 of them are Koreans. Of course the NA scene wont grow when there are no opportunities for their own players.
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
There's plenty interesting to root for! Just because YOU don't find any of the korean players to be interesting, doesn't mean everybody does! Besides, it creates awesome storylines where you have the underdog foreigners who need to push through the open bracket play to get into the main tournament! It's fun to see who makes it through and who drops out! At least, for me.
Regardless of viewership concerns, I'm more concerned with the level of gameplay. If the tournament is banning players because they're too good, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm certain I'm not the only one), the integrity of the competition is completely and utterly thrown out the window in favour of getting players who are "more interesting".
What I think needs to happen, is that korean teams need to market their players and brand in the west more heavily, so that the average viewer can be more connected to those players. As it is, there isn't nearly as much korean influence in our market as the western teams have at the moment, and while that's pretty natural, it's a situation that can be changed (for the better).
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
Then I guess you don't care much about the game. Watch WWE instead, it seems to be what you want - arranged, personality focused drama.
The best part about that is that this actually will happen (not with WWE though, they're already going down) and it's your loss.
It's our loss that we want to see a game focused on skill rather than on seeing more white people? I don't know about you, but I'd be more likely to stop watching if the latter occurred.
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
And how is that middle ground going to be found if the entrie foreign scene collapses due to lack of interest from casual fans?
That's not remotely what is happening.
And Stephano is the best any foreigner has been in relation to Koreans since 2010/very, very early 2011.
I'm going to assume you're just misremembering the dates of Stephano's big victories (IPL 3 wasn't until October 2011).
How was Stephano the best foreigner during a period in which he wasn't winning anything important and Idra, Jinro, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa were all enjoying vastly more success (ordered very roughly in terms of when they saw their success during the period you're talking about)?
That's not at all what I said.
Oh, that's what you meant.
edit: You do see that what you said is ambiguous though, right? It can also mean that since 2010, Stephano has been the best of any foreigner in relation to Koreans. English quite generally exhibits this kind of structural ambiguity with optional clauses.
Closed/Regional tournaments are not a weird thing at all, in fact it is a very normal thing in any sport to have a hierarchy of competition. Like the regional level, national level, "continental" level, and international level, and then there are things like the champions league (soccer). Each level has its own rewards and benefits. The thing is, many people don't want every event to be a champions league. This is currently the case with MLG and many offline tournaments though. People want to see their favorite players compete at a level that they can actually compete at in an offline setting.
I think that MLG will facilitate this at some point in the future, but you can expect it to be PPV (not a problem for many, right?).
On June 06 2012 22:56 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: [quote]
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
The faucet in the guest bedroom of my house.
Lol, nice. I asked for his criteria of success specifically because length of time isn't a great indicator. But you'd be hard pressed to argue the Asian Cup isn't successful anyway.
Everyone should watch what they want to watch. How about a cup of only your frieds and relatives. Well that wont attract too much viewers would it? That Asians like to watch Asians is fine for me that US only want to watch US and EU to watch EU is fine for me as well. As long as there are enough who want to see what MLG does deliver (top level play regardless of skin color and home nation) im fine with all of that.
You guys who don't like Koreans do realize that the Blue Stream, the second free stream, will be almost 100% US Nationals, right? So if you don't want to watch Koreans and just Americans battle it out, watch that all weekend and tune in to see Stephano when his games are on the main stage.
On June 06 2012 23:27 sickle wrote: Its pretty bullshit that at a foreign event, out of the 16 invites, 13 of them are Koreans. Of course the NA scene wont grow when there are no opportunities for their own players.
Those " invites " qualified through the Spring Arena's and they qualified for the Spring Arena's through online qualifiers, NO ONE was invited.
Was expecting this reply. Throughout the last few MLG season they have been inviting more and more koreans into pool play until now, the entire tourny is 90% korean. Or are you telling me that every single korean came to MLG on his own, and went through the open quailifers on his own. I know a few did, but most were invited and seeded.
On June 06 2012 23:20 bri9and wrote: terrible, terrible post.
If you intend to have a SC2 tournament, why wouldn't you want the best players? Sorry man, but that would be the Koreans.
Terrible, terrible post.
Because that's just boring - nothing interesting to root for.
Then I guess you don't care much about the game. Watch WWE instead, it seems to be what you want - arranged, personality focused drama.
The best part about that is that this actually will happen (not with WWE though, they're already going down) and it's your loss.
What.
Btw, Koreans have been coming to tournaments for quite some time now. The scene hasn't stopped growing since then. When DRG and Genius battled it out the GSL stream flipped its shit so hard that I missed the entire first game. Why? Because so many people wanted to see the best of the best. How often do MLG streams crash for that reason?
On June 06 2012 21:52 RageCommodore wrote: That's like saying "ban the european teams from Soccer world championship, they are too strong!!!1"
Look at the qualifying spots for the world cup, the tournament would be composed of mostly european and south american teams if they didn't have limited spots. Countries like New Zealand, T&T, N. Korea and so on would never qualify.
Anyway I lose interest when brackets are filled nothing but koreans in foreign tournaments, while touranments without koreans have much less prestige, I want tournaments to find the middle ground and invite like half a dozen koreans at most.
But see, the middle ground will be "found" once foreigners actually earn those spots, not by artificially controlling who gets to compete.
And how is that middle ground going to be found if the entrie foreign scene collapses due to lack of interest from casual fans?
That's not remotely what is happening.
And Stephano is the best any foreigner has been in relation to Koreans since 2010/very, very early 2011.
I'm going to assume you're just misremembering the dates of Stephano's big victories (IPL 3 wasn't until October 2011).
How was Stephano the best foreigner during a period in which he wasn't winning anything important and Idra, Jinro, Thorzain, Huk and Naniwa were all enjoying vastly more success (ordered very roughly in terms of when they saw their success during the period you're talking about)?
He's saying that Stephano now is closer to Korean levels than any foreigner has been since those days, when HuK, Jinro, IdrA etc. were competitive in the GSL.
Foreigners are at a disadvantage? Don't have the structure that Koreans have? HELL NO, the effing people in poor countries who have zero support have a friggin disadvantage.
I don't find this to be an issue at all. Last year, people were demanding that MLG bring over the Koreans, and their viewership skyrocketed when they did. NASL Season 2 lost their Korean players, and everyone said that was one of the biggest reasons they didn't watch (among others, of course.) They're back in Season 3 and it's the best season yet. IPL makes everyone happy by throwing the GSTL finals at their tournament, as well as beefing up the open bracket with these GSTL players. This is what people wanted. They wanted the best players to compete in foreign tournaments: "stacked" brackets and such. Now that they're here, you want them to leave because they win too much? No.
There will always be smaller tournaments with far more foreigners than Koreans. But any large tournaments, especially ones with open brackets, will always draw the best players. The only way to decrease the amount of Koreans in them, without decreasing the level of play, is for foreigners to step their game up. That's all.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: Why do you turn MLG into a one weekend GSL? .
I agree with this. Most of the times I stop watching MLG after the last foreigner is eliminated. If I want to see Koreans competing I will watch GSL.
Furthermore, this trend hurts the foreign scene. If the Koreans win all the tournaments and therefore win all the prize money, the foreigner pros will have their income reduced. The mid to low tier foreigner pros cannot even hope to win prize money in these events. This will lead to less foreigner pros, less finantial capacity to compete and to dedicate themselves to the game. The current trend hurts the foreign scene more than it helps. It becomoe a cycle with more and more Korean players and less foreigner pros. Check the current roster of the foreigner teams.
Look at an example from history, all countries that industrialized needed a period of proteccionism to be able to compete in the global market.
I have nothing against Koreans, but I don't want to see the end of the EU and NA scene. To give you an example from the soccer world; just because Barcelona is the best soccer team in the world, I don't have to root for them or only watch their games.
On June 06 2012 23:32 Fionn wrote: Why is this a debate?
You guys who don't like Koreans do realize that the Blue Stream, the second free stream, will be almost 100% US Nationals, right? So if you don't want to watch Koreans and just Americans battle it out, watch that all weekend and tune in to see Stephano when his games are on the main stage.
Wow they should name it US stream so everyone knows!
On June 06 2012 23:28 bri9and wrote: Wanting a good "mix" means that the quality of competition will be hampered from day one.
If you want a decent number of foreigners to compete in a tournament then you might as well go for a all foreigner one, otherwise you'll just mostly get one sided games.
On June 06 2012 22:56 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: [quote]
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
My rebuttal is that you're really really dumb. The world cup doesn't let non Brazilians play for Brazil either, what is this madness?
MLG is not a nation based competition, it is not WCG or the Blizzard knock off that's currently going on.
It's an open tournament like the US open or Wimbledon.
Comparing a nation based tournament like the World Cup to a non national based tournament is retarded.
Fine. I'll modify my original post you replied to. It still holds true:
When someone from my country is in Wimbledon, interest in tennis soars. Of course the hardcore tennis fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my countryman is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
It's still a completely retarded point because those are naturally according scenarios.
If a Japanese player qualifies for Wimbledon that's great for Japan but the ITF should not ever and would never guarentee a Japanese player at every Wimbledon round of 32 no matter how shitty he is purely to appease and increase Japanese viewers.
That is fucking pathetic and a total embarrassment to the name of competition and anyone who thinks that is a good idea needs to get as far away from a position of influence as possible.
China is the biggest nation on earth, India is second. They are both shit at football. Does Fifa guarantee them a spot at the world cup anyway just for viewer numbers? Of course not because Fifa is not a joke, it is serious sporting body creating serious sporting competitions.
MLG hopefully wants to be more like Fifa and not the embarrassing joke you and other mindless fools want it to be.
On June 06 2012 23:31 Domus wrote: Closed/Regional tournaments are not a weird thing at all, in fact it is a very normal thing in any sport to have a hierarchy of competition. Like the regional level, national level, "continental" level, and international level, and then there are things like the champions league (soccer). Each level has its own rewards and benefits. The thing is, many people don't want every event to be a champions league. This is currently the case with MLG and many offline tournaments though. People want to see their favorite players compete at a level that they can actually compete at in an offline setting.
I think that MLG will facilitate this at some point in the future, but you can expect it to be PPV (not a problem for many, right?).
To be fair, since Starcraft isn't so big like football/hockey/other sports, we shouldn't be segregating our tournaments imo. It seems counterproductive at the moment. But if it's like you're saying, where you just make a tournament like that instead of converting an existing tournament over, well, that's fine by my books, I suppose.
On June 06 2012 23:32 Fionn wrote: Why is this a debate?
You guys who don't like Koreans do realize that the Blue Stream, the second free stream, will be almost 100% US Nationals, right? So if you don't want to watch Koreans and just Americans battle it out, watch that all weekend and tune in to see Stephano when his games are on the main stage.
Wow they should name it US stream so everyone knows!
nah if they did that people would have to stop complaining about how MLG is ruining esports! D:
Hmmm this is a difficult topic and everybody will have his personal opinion on it. I have to agree that MLG just isn't as exciting for me as it used to be. The sheer amount of Koreans and the lack of foreigners that can really compete with them is one of the reasons. The "problem" aren't the well know Koreans like MarineKing, DRG or MC that already have a large fanbase, but the lesser known ones. I know it's totally unfair towards those players as they probably work just as hard as the more well known, but a big part of why I enjoy watching e-sports (and every other sport) is the hype and the fandom that comes along with it. Getting personally invested and cheering for a player just makes watching so much more fun for me. But it's hard to cheer for someone, that you hardly know. When a lot of the games in the later stages of the tournament are played between players that I neither care about or cheer for it's just not very exciting.
While I do agree with you Koreans are dominating the scene, and that it's kind of funny how most of the competitors for MLG are Korean, your logic is completely flawed. To limit players from competing simply because they're Korean, that seems discriminatory to me.
It's true what a lot of other people said, Koreans are seriously committed to playing this game; even TSL_Polt took a break from the most prestigious university in Korea in order to commit to playing full-time.
I can't really say that foreigners practice less than Koreans or blahblahblah because that's not necessarily true, but from what I see, the practice environment is just different. A lot of foreign teams require players to be self-starters and proactive; players need to actively ask for help and a lot of players (I'm not saying all) tend to practice by simply laddering.
There's already a system that tries to limit the "problem" that the OP pointed out; separate server qualifiers. Obviously theres' a loophole in that system and Korean players will still play on other servers because they have the means to pay for flights and compensate for lag. I think that they deserve to be there if they can defeat the odds. There shouldn't be preferential treatment simply based on the fact that you're Korean or a foreigner.
Okay, I need help getting something. What makes Koreans so faceless? They're still people with backstories and motivation and dreams, and I love watching my favorite players win regardless of nationality. I mean, I still love rooting for my foreigner favorites in mostly Korean tournaments, but that's more because I like to root for the underdog than because I prefer foreigners. I look at MLG's brackets and see 16 players; I don't really care about nationality. Why's it make a difference where a player is from? (Except the U.S., my underdog thing goes CRAZY with U.S. players because of how bad our pros are on the whole when put next to the rest of the world.)
[To anyone thinking I'm being condescending and saying we shouldn't care and nationality doesn't matter, etc., that's not what this is. I actually don't get why being Korean matters, and it would be most cool if a logical person who thinks it does matter could explain it to me.]
On June 06 2012 22:40 ceaRshaf wrote: I want to see a member of my family play. I want to see a member of my neighborhood play. I want to see a member of my town play. I want to see a member of my country play. I want to see a member of my continent play. I want to see a member of my planet play. I want to see a member of my Arm play. I want to see a member of my Galaxy play. I want to see a member of my Universe play.
In that order.
That is not racism or anything, it's how human beings have evolved, wanting to defend their close ones before anything else (other tribe or smth).
Learn the difference between descriptive and normative. Everyone understands WHY foreigners prefer watching foreigners if all circumstances are equal. That doesn't make it rational. And racism IS somewhat a product of evolution, for the same tribal reasons you describe. Sometimes our nature is ugly and shouldn't be used to justify prejudices that our reason can counteract.
If you are called to war for your country you would flee to the better team? If aliens invade Earth would you flee to fight with them just because they have the better guns?
There are some morality issues involved in here as well.
Your team is Romania.
It is not every fucking country in the world except South Korea.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
A "Foreigner Cup" or "Non-Koreans Cup" wouldn't sound too good hahaha
That said this reminds me of ping pong / table tennis where the Chinese domination is similar to the Korean domination in SC2.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
The european equivalent to that would be: Random German who likes beer and drinks all day vs Random Russian of likes vodka and drinks all day.
On June 06 2012 23:34 DeathSquire36 wrote: I don't find this to be an issue at all. Last year, people were demanding that MLG bring over the Koreans, and their viewership skyrocketed when they did. NASL Season 2 lost their Korean players, and everyone said that was one of the biggest reasons they didn't watch (among others, of course.) They're back in Season 3 and it's the best season yet. IPL makes everyone happy by throwing the GSTL finals at their tournament, as well as beefing up the open bracket with these GSTL players. This is what people wanted. They wanted the best players to compete in foreign tournaments: "stacked" brackets and such. Now that they're here, you want them to leave because they win too much? No.
There will always be smaller tournaments with far more foreigners than Koreans. But any large tournaments, especially ones with open brackets, will always draw the best players. The only way to decrease the amount of Koreans in them, without decreasing the level of play, is for foreigners to step their game up. That's all.
Interesting to note that the GSTL finals was the most hyped the crowd at IPL 5 was all tournament long. I bet the stream numbers reflected it too.
On June 06 2012 23:27 sickle wrote: Its pretty bullshit that at a foreign event, out of the 16 invites, 13 of them are Koreans. Of course the NA scene wont grow when there are no opportunities for their own players.
Those " invites " qualified through the Spring Arena's and they qualified for the Spring Arena's through online qualifiers, NO ONE was invited.
Was expecting this reply. Throughout the last few MLG season they have been inviting more and more koreans into pool play until now, the entire tourny is 90% korean. Or are you telling me that every single korean came to MLG on his own, and went through the open quailifers on his own. I know a few did, but most were invited and seeded.
What does the model for last years MLG circuit have to do with this years? The top 8 of providence were seeded into the first Winter Arena and then from the results of that tournament you got the players in the Winter Championship pools, then from that they qualified into Spring Arena 1, etc,etc.
For the record they invited four Koreans at every MLG after Anahiem up until Providence which was 100% seeding from previous tournaments. One Korean for each pool. The rest came on their own from the open bracket if they chose to.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
The faucet in the guest bedroom of my house.
Lol, nice. I asked for his criteria of success specifically because length of time isn't a great indicator. But you'd be hard pressed to argue the Asian Cup isn't successful anyway.
Everyone should watch what they want to watch. How about a cup of only your frieds and relatives. Well that wont attract too much viewers would it? That Asians like to watch Asians is fine for me that US only want to watch US and EU to watch EU is fine for me as well. As long as there are enough who want to see what MLG does deliver (top level play regardless of skin color and home nation) im fine with all of that.
Agree 100%. I'm fine with MLG doing whatever they want.
However there are clearly people who need a 'local hero' in order to feel connected to a tournament. Whether these people are in great enough numbers to affect MLG's bottom line should it become more Korean dominated I can't say. I don't think anyone can say. I don't think it's a trivial point to raise though.
Yes, let's limit the number of Koreans in MLG so we can see more low level players like Haypro, Idra or pretty much anyone from NA. What would be the point of watching something like that? I don't care about people who aren't good enough to compete with top Koreans. If I wanna watch games like that there are EU daily cups everyday. I want to see top level games and plays, not random foreigners. Even if there are only 3 or 4 players from KR they will still dominate it. And I don't feel like watching epic battles Haypro vs Jinro or InControl vs IdrA, it is a waste of my time.
On June 06 2012 23:37 Swipe wrote: Okay, I need help getting something. What makes Koreans so faceless? They're still people with backstories and motivation and dreams, and I love watching my favorite players win regardless of nationality. I mean, I still love rooting for my foreigner favorites in mostly Korean tournaments, but that's more because I like to root for the underdog than because I prefer foreigners. I look at MLG's brackets and see 16 players; I don't really care about nationality. Why's it make a difference where a player is from? (Except the U.S., my underdog thing goes CRAZY with U.S. players because of how bad our pros are on the whole when put next to the rest of the world.)
[To anyone thinking I'm being condescending and saying we shouldn't care and nationality doesn't matter, etc., that's not what this is. I actually don't get why being Korean matters, and it would be most cool if a logical person who thinks it does matter could explain it to me.]
I guess for those SC2 fans it comes down to language and cultural barrier.
On June 06 2012 23:04 JinThevalley wrote: While many people watch sports (including e-sports) because they enjoy the games and the sport in itself, few (I hope) would disagree that if it becomes important to you who wins the match this increases the overall entertainment value of the match. Thing is that people often root for people related to geography or nationality.
To use a real sport example, the European football championship is coming up. The level of football is likely to be very high and I will probably have a look, but i won't really care who wins the games as Norway did not qualify (as usual). However, if Norway by some sort of miracle should qualify the next time the tournament would become much more interesting because I would have someone to root for (certainly not because their good).
Same thing with Korean only vs. mixed tournaments. I enjoy to watch GSL or GSTL because they provide excellent games but i only really care who wins if there are foreigners included. MLG on the other hand may not have the same level in their games, but the entertainment value is upped as a result of having someone to root for. If MLG becomes a korean only tournament this will serve to alienate those who primarily watch because they cheer for some foreigner ,while removing much of the entertainment value for those who enjoy both the game and have someone they root for. Thus, this type of tournament will only serve those who only watch because they enjoy good matches. This would probably result in decrease in viewers already following Starcraft while at the same time it is likely that SC will attract fewer new viewers.Besides, we already have top notch, jetlag free tournaments in GSL and GSTL to provide the highest level of SC2 games.
On the other hand, no one I know gives a shit that Norway didn't qualify because we all cheer for The Netherlands/Spain/England/Portugal or Germany. Different strokes for different people.
On June 06 2012 23:39 CDR wrote: Yes, let's limit the number of Koreans in MLG so we can see more low level players like Haypro, Idra or pretty much anyone from NA. What would be the point of watching something like that? I don't care about people who aren't good enough to compete with top Koreans. If I wanna watch games like that there are EU daily cups everyday. I want to see top level games and plays, not random foreigners. Even if there are only 3 or 4 players from KR they will still dominate it. And I don't feel like watching epic battles Haypro vs Jinro or InControl vs IdrA, it is a waste of my time.
Your post makes no sence sorry to tell you :/ My english isnt good as well but your last sentence is just fucket up i guess. Its a missin "," i guess
What i find funny is how divided the community is when it comes to supporting their heroes, the "foreigners" compared to naniwa's depiction of the korean pride and how they always all team up to destroy the foreigner. That is rather interesting to say the least. ( Tho i am not linking this up with korean "racism against foreigner" and posts like these:+ Show Spoiler +
On June 06 2012 21:33 Fatmofo wrote: This is literally the same shit spilled out by right-wing white nationalist against immagrants in real live. Hope that puts your oppinion in prespective.
or anything, it's just ... weird. Maybe it's because we are "the rest of the world" and not "korea" or "USA" or "countryX" that makes rooting for "our" players more difficult ?)
Also interesting to note how big tournaments are willing to pay money to get koreans to come and play whereas foreigners have no such help. ( Well this one is faaar more understandable but, i feel like it might be relevant somehow )
Also, while restricting the amount of black people per team in the NBA seems ludicrous, know that korean ( and i think japanese too, someone correct me on that please ) baseball teams have a limitation on the amount of foreigners that can play for a team.
Also, what this guy said :
On June 06 2012 21:46 Doctorasul wrote: You want fairy tales, soap operas and circus theatrics: giant vs albino, one-armed vs one-eyed, black vs trans-gendered, midget vs morbidly obese. Why are you trying to make a real competition into a spectacle? Let serious tournaments do what they do best: separate the best from the rest.
On June 06 2012 21:14 marcesr wrote: How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Cmon don't hate me, i had to do it, he phrased it that way ON PURPOSE.
On June 06 2012 22:01 Chickenlegs wrote: I remember when a friend of mine started playing SC2, I told him he should watch some vods of pros playing, he started with Destiny and idrA, then he found out about the korean pros and never looked back. So it's really up to the person, if you care about the gameplay more than funny jokes and shit, you will enjoy the koreans more (atleast in my experience.)
Once you go black korean you never go back !
On June 06 2012 22:35 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote: I think Russian caps the number of foreign players but this is a country where fans throw banana's at black players so what do you expect from those clowns?
Ahah. What ???!!? Seriously, bananas ?
On June 06 2012 22:32 Eufouria wrote: Also everyone knows 감자탕 > Noodles
In all fairness, this thread should be closed. It only serves as a publicity stunt (wanted/or totally unwanted - I do not deny the best intentions of the OP) regarding MLG and the rest. You may not see it as such, but, that's quite against the TL rules.
I think you're counting out Stephano, Huk, Thorzain and Naniwa in the OP, they've shown that they can compete. Regardless, MLG is supposed to be premier competition, not minor leagues. I'm not interested in watching Americans I've never heard of lose to Europeans I've never heard of. I'd much rather watch Koreans plus Stephano if that's how it turns out again.
I'm totally tired of this arguement, personally I think it's stupid. I mean I watch bw and nobody really made it a big deal that foriegners weren't in the tourney's. I watch to see the best players play their best, not to see some people who don't deserve to be in the tourney lose to a korean. I would love it if some of the forieners would win a MLG or GSL, but I don't root for a foriener because he isn't Korean. Maybe you should invest more time in learning about the Korean players, and you might find some you actually like. The only reason you don't know any of the Koreans, is because you refuse to know. I almost never watch SC2 currently,(do to time constraints,) but I still know most of the top Koreans and even if I don't know a player here or their. If they play an amazing game, I can become a fan instantly because I don't have the "too many Koreans" point of view. Seriously quit being racist and Just learn to love the game.
With MLG coming up this weekend we have another one of our biggest events and it is totally dominated by Koreans again.
Lately every MLG and IPL have been totally Korean dominated and that makes it just so much less interesting. Yes I love to watch GSL, I also like to watch Broodwar OSL but when Im watching an international tournament it should be INTERNATIONAL.
Do you know what Koreans did when they hosted their first international tournament (WCG)? They didnt allow more than 3 players from every country to avoid a bracket with 31 Koreans in the top 32. They knew that most people would not be interested in watching a 2nd OSL which is run on 2 days. What did they do instead? They created a tournament which greatly supported esport in dozens of countries for almost a decade.
How does MLG ever want to present their product to a larger audience if its all about Random Korean 1 who likes noodles and plays all day against Random Korean 2 who likes noodles and plays all day? (Sorry for the polemical phrases but im quite disappointed.)
Casual viewers know the top foreigners and a few Koreans like MC.
What makes GSL so great is the incredible level of play and the hard competition. What has made MLG the best tournament in the past was the great athmosphere, the interesting storylines, rivalries etc. and also the great games of course.
But really, in 2012 most of that is gone.
Yes the level of play is awesome, but I can see better games in the GSL every day. Why do you turn MLG into a one weekend GSL?
Ive bought MLG passes in the past, I will still buy GSL passes and for Homestory cup – not for MLG anymore until this changes again.
And to all the people who say that foreigners should just train harder. Do you really think that it is realistic, especially with the BW pros switching to SC2, that we will EVER have more than 3 foreigners who can keep up with the top 30 Koreans? Its not.
That's like saying top athletes can't compete in the olympic games because the less good ones should have a chance too.
On June 06 2012 23:37 Swipe wrote: Okay, I need help getting something. What makes Koreans so faceless? They're still people with backstories and motivation and dreams, and I love watching my favorite players win regardless of nationality. I mean, I still love rooting for my foreigner favorites in mostly Korean tournaments, but that's more because I like to root for the underdog than because I prefer foreigners. I look at MLG's brackets and see 16 players; I don't really care about nationality. Why's it make a difference where a player is from? (Except the U.S., my underdog thing goes CRAZY with U.S. players because of how bad our pros are on the whole when put next to the rest of the world.)
[To anyone thinking I'm being condescending and saying we shouldn't care and nationality doesn't matter, etc., that's not what this is. I actually don't get why being Korean matters, and it would be most cool if a logical person who thinks it does matter could explain it to me.]
Well, it's mostly because we don't have the same connection to their scene as we do to the western scene. They don't market their players at all, there's little to no behind the scenes content (IN COMPARISON TO THE WEST), and for the most part, people just think of them as gaming machines who sit in their pro houses practicing all hours of the day. And while that stems from ignorance, it's still not going to go away until we get more exposed to their scene. I believe that the responsibility lies on the teams to make that happen. If they get more western market exposure, they can even start to pull western sponsorships for their teams. Stuff like GSL:OTR is a step in the right direction, but we seriously have so much content in the west that allows us to get to know the pros better, and korea has one 15 minute weekly talkshow.
Ok, no Romainans at MLG. What about Europeans? Oh, no room for them because Korea is so dominant? Ok. No soup for me. NEEXT!
When England lose in the European Championships to Spain in the Ro8 (or maybe we'll lose in the groups) I won't stop watching because I am a football fan who supports my team but also loves to game itself.
You are not a Starcraft fan. You are a fan of white people playing Starcraft. Which is racist, sad and pathetic.
When my country is in the World Cup, interest in Soccer soars. Of course the hardcore soccer fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my country is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
No sporting even has ever, ever in the history of sport succeeded by not encouraging fair and equal competition based on skill.
Asian Cup - Soccer. Running for 50 odd years. Only allows Asian teams.
Just what criteria of success you using there?
Is this a joke?
No. This competition doesn't allow equal competition based on skill. It restricts by region. I contend it's successful by the length of time it's been running, therefore providing a counterexample to your statement.
Rebuttal?
My rebuttal is that you're really really dumb. The world cup doesn't let non Brazilians play for Brazil either, what is this madness?
MLG is not a nation based competition, it is not WCG or the Blizzard knock off that's currently going on.
It's an open tournament like the US open or Wimbledon.
Comparing a nation based tournament like the World Cup to a non national based tournament is retarded.
Fine. I'll modify my original post you replied to. It still holds true:
When someone from my country is in Wimbledon, interest in tennis soars. Of course the hardcore tennis fans will watch the games till the end no matter what, but as soon as my countryman is eliminated, interest clearly wanes in the population. The casuals lose interest. Some casuals may like what they see, and continue to watch though, for the tournament and for years later.......
You might say we don't need those casuals. Well then I say all you'll end up with is Korean based tournaments. MLG won't be supported by hardcore supporters alone. This might be fine for you. Others want to see MLG succeed and grow.
It's still a completely retarded point because those are naturally according scenarios.
If a Japanese player qualifies for Wimbledon that's great for Japan but the ITF should not ever and would never guarentee a Japanese player at every Wimbledon round of 32 no matter how shitty he is purely to appease and increase Japanese viewers.
That is fucking pathetic and a total embarrassment to the name of competition and anyone who thinks that is a good idea needs to get as far away from a position of influence as possible.
China is the biggest nation on earth, India is second. They are both shit at football. Does Fifa guarantee them a spot at the world cup anyway just for viewer numbers? Of course not because Fifa is not a joke, it is serious sporting body creating serious sporting competitions.
MLG hopefully wants to be more like Fifa and not the embarrassing joke you and other mindless fools want it to be.
I never advocated MLG changing their system. I was merely demonstrating that viewership is dependent on the origin of the players of a tournament. Some people here couldn't understand that these kind of people existed. If MLG wants to be life FIFA, then all the more power to them. It doesn't mean they'll be successful though given my above point.
On June 06 2012 23:37 Swipe wrote: Okay, I need help getting something. What makes Koreans so faceless? They're still people with backstories and motivation and dreams, and I love watching my favorite players win regardless of nationality. I mean, I still love rooting for my foreigner favorites in mostly Korean tournaments, but that's more because I like to root for the underdog than because I prefer foreigners. I look at MLG's brackets and see 16 players; I don't really care about nationality. Why's it make a difference where a player is from? (Except the U.S., my underdog thing goes CRAZY with U.S. players because of how bad our pros are on the whole when put next to the rest of the world.)
[To anyone thinking I'm being condescending and saying we shouldn't care and nationality doesn't matter, etc., that's not what this is. I actually don't get why being Korean matters, and it would be most cool if a logical person who thinks it does matter could explain it to me.]
I guess for those SC2 fans it comes down to language and cultural barrier.
koreans also show more self control in public settings because of their culture and upbringing
"What has made MLG the best tournament in the past was the great athmosphere, the interesting storylines, rivalries etc. and also the great games of course.
But really, in 2012 most of that is gone."
5 out of the 6 MLG's last year had GSL players at them. MLG still has a great atmosphere, there will be great storylines and rivalries (stephano v. polt and MC v. DRG and MKP v. DRG. I have loved every MLG this year so please speak for yourself.
On June 06 2012 23:38 Shiori wrote: Here's a question: did anyone even watch NASL when they basically had no Koreans? I know I didn't.
Hah this is brilliant.
Look at IPL FC etc. There is a reason they are almost entirely korean now. IPL is a business, and unlike what most people say, top level koreans bring the numbers, not foreigners. Even korean vs korean brought higher numbers, and IPL is a business.
On June 06 2012 23:37 Swipe wrote: Okay, I need help getting something. What makes Koreans so faceless? They're still people with backstories and motivation and dreams, and I love watching my favorite players win regardless of nationality. I mean, I still love rooting for my foreigner favorites in mostly Korean tournaments, but that's more because I like to root for the underdog than because I prefer foreigners. I look at MLG's brackets and see 16 players; I don't really care about nationality. Why's it make a difference where a player is from? (Except the U.S., my underdog thing goes CRAZY with U.S. players because of how bad our pros are on the whole when put next to the rest of the world.)
[To anyone thinking I'm being condescending and saying we shouldn't care and nationality doesn't matter, etc., that's not what this is. I actually don't get why being Korean matters, and it would be most cool if a logical person who thinks it does matter could explain it to me.]
Well, it's mostly because we don't have the same connection to their scene as we do to the western scene. They don't market their players at all, there's little to no behind the scenes content (IN COMPARISON TO THE WEST), and for the most part, people just think of them as gaming machines who sit in their pro houses practicing all hours of the day. And while that stems from ignorance, it's still not going to go away until we get more exposed to their scene. I believe that the responsibility lies on the teams to make that happen. If they get more western market exposure, they can even start to pull western sponsorships for their teams. Stuff like GSL:OTR is a step in the right direction, but we seriously have so much content in the west that allows us to get to know the pros better, and korea has one 15 minute weekly talkshow.
These kind of ideas are the best thing to come out of this thread. Korean teams take note.
On June 06 2012 23:38 Shiori wrote: Here's a question: did anyone even watch NASL when they basically had no Koreans? I know I didn't.
Hah this is brilliant.
Look at IPL FC etc. There is a reason they are almost entirely korean now. IPL is a business, and unlike what most people say, top level koreans bring the numbers, not foreigners. Even korean vs korean brought higher numbers, and IPL is a business.
Exacly :D thast what its about Money wake up ppl! And if you want to change that stop watching SC2, till there are that kind of tourneys, you want there to be
On June 06 2012 22:48 oxxo wrote: How in the world is this not racist? In more instances than not people are talking about 'foreigners' as white. Not their own country, but white. It's just plain ridiculous.
The bigger tournaments are more likely than not never going to have skin color quotas. You guys really need to get over it. They're going to invite the best and the best are going to make it through open play (foreigners have plenty of chances to get in). That's only good for SC2 and viewership. Who wants to watch someone barely better than themselves?
What? Who was talking about white?! Don't put words in people mouths.
We want fair representation from all over the world. I would give 1-4 spots per country or region. 4 to Korea, 3 to North America, 4 to EU countries, 1 to rest of Europe countries, 2 to China, 1 to Australia, 1 to Latin America, 1-2 to middle east and so on. Qualifiers to decide who represents countries and then they fight each other to get region qualify spots. The numbers or representatives would change from tournament to tournament based on how players from their region do (like Champions league does it).
In that case most of the games would be total shit.
Do you enjoy talking out of your ass?
1.
It is customary In many sports to treat the host nation/players from the host nation of a tournament favorably in order to garner interest among viewers. Likewise, in many sports there are limitations (with more or less enforcement) on participants in order to ensure a field representing as wide a demography as possible. It all comes down heightening interest and getting as many viewers as possible.
From the top of my head, it happens in football, in cycling, in tennis & in golf.
2.
The 'quality of games'-argument is flawed, and in any case only pertains to a small subsection of the SC2-viewers. First, judging the 'quality' of a game is very subjective and very much influenced by anticipation. What you expect to see is what you get and, in any case, only a portion of viewers will be able to tell the difference between a game between two GSL-participating Koreans and two top 50 foreigners.
Second, did you not enjoy SC2 a year ago, when all players where much worse than now? Were the games then terrible, and we were all fooled into believing that we were enjoying ourselves?
Third, the best players does not necessarily produce the 'best' games. There have been plenty of bad GSL-finals to prove that point, and more recently, we had a run of bad games from the quarter finals and up until the final of GSL season 1.
On June 06 2012 23:31 Domus wrote: Closed/Regional tournaments are not a weird thing at all, in fact it is a very normal thing in any sport to have a hierarchy of competition. Like the regional level, national level, "continental" level, and international level, and then there are things like the champions league (soccer). Each level has its own rewards and benefits. The thing is, many people don't want every event to be a champions league. This is currently the case with MLG and many offline tournaments though. People want to see their favorite players compete at a level that they can actually compete at in an offline setting.
I think that MLG will facilitate this at some point in the future, but you can expect it to be PPV (not a problem for many, right?).
This. Why would u watch MLG if u just watched GSL which is pretty much the same?
The other side of the problem is that most Koreans don't speak english and it's rather difficult to like somebody just for the way he plays. You need to know his personality, too. I believe MC has more fans among foreigners than anybody else just because he is actually trying to use english and have some real communication with the audience.
I don't even bother watching MLG anymore, just a few games here and there is my favorite foreigners are there. If I want to watch Koreans I watch the GSTL (and GSL sometimes).
If I want to watch a fair distribution of top players from a lot of countries I stick to watching Dreamhack, NASL, HSC, Assembly and IEM. Big props to these companies for not inviting 100 koreans and paying all their trips! I hope IPL will do a lot better next time, at least they kinda admitted their fault and will try to fix it with regional qualifiers.
But for MLG I lost all hope. When 90 % of the NA qualified players are korean and most of them don't even live in NA and just played cross server NA, you know something's wrong with their system.
On June 06 2012 23:38 Shiori wrote: Here's a question: did anyone even watch NASL when they basically had no Koreans? I know I didn't.
Hah this is brilliant.
Look at IPL FC etc. There is a reason they are almost entirely korean now. IPL is a business, and unlike what most people say, top level koreans bring the numbers, not foreigners. Even korean vs korean brought higher numbers, and IPL is a business.
Exacly :D thast what its about Money wake up ppl! And if you want to change that stop watching SC2, till there are that kind of tourneys, you want there to be
They already exist anyway but the people who casually wanna watch SCII are probably too lazy to find them. Because that would require knowledge about things.
to get good foreigners to pool play 1. MLG has to pay everything for them, because they won't spend a cent to travel to US unless they are in EG or TL. - Can MLG just pick a few top EU players that they think can compete with Koreans and sponsor them ? No. that would destroy the meaning of competition. 2. They can qualify themself. - yea, but you can't expect to have 50% of foreigners and 50% of koreans. it will always be at least 80% of koreans. and I feel bad for you OP what's the solution? -> watch Dreamhack and HSC if you don't want to see koreans.
On June 06 2012 23:48 Champloo wrote: I don't even bother watching MLG anymore, just a few games here and there is my favorite foreigners are there. If I want to watch Koreans I watch the GSTL (and GSL sometimes).
If I want to watch a fair distribution of top players from a lot of countries I stick to watching Dreamhack, NASL, HSC, Assembly and IEM. Big props to these companies for not inviting 100 koreans and paying all their trips! I hope IPL will do a lot better next time, at least they kinda admitted their fault and will try to fix it with regional qualifiers.
But for MLG I lost all hope. When 90 % of the NA qualified players are korean and most of them don't even live in NA and just played cross server NA, you know something's wrong with their system.
Alas, any system short of outright banning/forcing koreans to play with one hand will end up like this until we have the same infastructure that they do in pro houses. We have some teams who can afford to make houses, but they can hardly afford to pick up and coming talent and train them to be better, like korean teams do.
MLG is going to be like this as long as they have a points system that rewards victories and placing high in the tournament. Which should be rewarded, imo.
On June 06 2012 23:38 Shiori wrote: Here's a question: did anyone even watch NASL when they basically had no Koreans? I know I didn't.
Hah this is brilliant.
Look at IPL FC etc. There is a reason they are almost entirely korean now. IPL is a business, and unlike what most people say, top level koreans bring the numbers, not foreigners. Even korean vs korean brought higher numbers, and IPL is a business.
Exacly :D thast what its about Money wake up ppl! And if you want to change that stop watching SC2, till there are that kind of tourneys, you want there to be
They already exist anyway but the people who casually wanna watch SCII are probably too lazy to find them. Because that would require knowledge about things.
I c what you did there :D Strange no hype around them only why arent we all only wanting to watch foreighners we are so mean.
EPT
shut your mouth if you just jump on the bandwagon response
Not that exciting
![[image loading]](http://i.qkme.me/3plstd.jpg)
