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The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here.
I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?"
He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations.
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On May 12 2012 05:42 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote:
I don't think we can stop Blizzard from messing up ladder maps (eg. no half base on Daybreak), cause they are pretty stubborn on that issue.
But I think tournament organizers should at least consult map makers on their decisions, ask why they have done certain things and have full information before messing with them. blizzard and mlg is completely different since blizzard basically owns everything you do with sc2 if you upload it to their servers so they have the right to edit the maps but mlg has no right to do so if they didn't ask the mapmakers first
Mapmakers make maps, they do not own them. I honestly do not see what the issue is here... you are not allowed to "own shit" and sell it in SC2 and if MLG want to edit this map then it is perfectly fine for them to do so.
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On May 12 2012 05:41 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:49 Diamond wrote: so I ask you the community, why is it ok? why is it ok? well why isnt it? seems like you're basing your argument on moral grounds which means it's subjective also you did such an amazingly shitty job creating this thread however that isnt unlike all the other sc2 drama threads. by that i mean you've created a flame baiting hot topic where your side of the argument is presented with such amazing bias that there are only two outcomes. 1: people read your opinion and take it as their own without knowing the other side of the story 2: get angry at how extreme your opinions are because of your lack of due dillengence/research
so you say he doesn't know what he's talking about?
as you might have noticed he is a mapmaker himself so he is pretty involved in this...
also: what other point of view is there? mlg simply has no right to change the maps without asking for permission...
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It's the nature of the medium, mapmaker have no right over their creation, I think that's the real problem.
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On May 12 2012 05:43 JackDT wrote:The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here. Show nested quote +I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?" He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations.
It's an easy answer. The community at large wants better maps, it doesn't care nearly as much about who creates them. If you want to stop the behavior then you have to do it from within the map making community.
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On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote:
Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical.
That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so.
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yes i agree.
i also think that casters should mention the name of map creators sometimes.
it doesn't hurt and gives the guys some respect they deserve.
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The question is who has the right over these maps. I think MLG should be allowed to change things they don't like, BUT: big events should have to pay for the rights to use these maps (I don't think they do right?). Don't forget that without the hard work of these mapmakers nobody would watch any tourney, so it would be only fair if they got their share.
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On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote:
Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so.
That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do).
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Well, as a map maker, I've always thought the tournaments should be able to alter maps in whatever way. For instance, I never put depots at the ramps on my maps because I think it's something that the tournaments should decide.
However, I'm all for consistency so I don't think a tournament should drastically alter a map from the standard version without good reason. MLG likes to do random crazy things without good reason (extended series for example.)
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On May 12 2012 05:49 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote:
Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so. That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do).
I agree with you, but again, that's the point of this thread. They are asking the community if their point of view of the matter as mapmakers is right before "renegociating" with tournaments. They are not asking the community to "do it for them" (at least that's how I view this thread).
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This is actually an instance of a general pattern with MLG. They'd rather do things in-house than to consult with people who actually know what they're doing. You can see it in the way they choose the maps, the way they make rules, the way they seed their brackets, even the way they stream the events. Sometimes it's best to just figure things out for yourself, but when there's a community of knowledgeable and passionate people who are ready to do this work for you, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to take advantage of that.
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On May 12 2012 05:49 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote:
Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so. That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do).
The problem is that Battle.net is such a pile of shit we HAVE to send it to them so they can "MLG" it. I'm fine with this, it's the only way to make sure you have the right version for that tournament.
Also even if we don't, the locker doesn't actually work right and you can unlock maps at will. For example on various map sites you can find copies of most of the ESV maps even ones we never gave to any tournaments.
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On May 12 2012 05:54 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:49 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote:
Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so. That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do). I agree with you, but again, that's the point of this thread. They are asking the community if their point of view of the matter as mapmakers is right before "renegociating" with tournaments. They are not asking the community to "do it for them" (at least that's how I view this thread).
Well that's not the impression I got from OP, but if that's what their asking then my answer is, "do whatever you want because to start you and blizzard the only ones with the source map file"
Also even if we don't, the locker doesn't actually work right and you can unlock maps at will. For example on various map sites you can find copies of most of the ESV maps even ones we never gave to any tournaments.
If you have evidence of a tournament doing this, then that'd be a more worthy cause and something that can be talked about.
As to the other part... you guys have some leverage as creators. Use it to get them to stop changing your maps. If LSPrime boycotts giving maps to MLG then that's a huge blow to MLG given the quality of his maps.
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I never going to buy MLG's products ever again because of this.
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On May 12 2012 05:48 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:43 JackDT wrote:The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here. I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?" He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations. It's an easy answer. The community at large wants better maps, it doesn't care nearly as much about who creates them. If you want to stop the behavior then you have to do it from within the map making community.
If you say that the community wants better maps and not really better map makers to make the maps then the map maker will just stop making maps. They do not gain any benefit from creating their maps and if it isn't a profitable venture then they shouldn't be pursuing it.
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Well I guess the easy fix is for map makers to not hand over their maps for tournaments to use for their labeling unless they sign a contract that says they will not change anything (except maybe neutral supply depots, or some other agreement).
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:00 RusHXceL wrote:
I never going to buy MLG's products ever again because of this.
Isn't this going a bit too far? It has been stated several times that this is one case of many. It's not only MLG that have done this.
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On May 12 2012 06:00 RusHXceL wrote:
I never going to buy MLG's products ever again because of this.
That's the wrong reaction, instead ask for MLG and all the other tournaments to start interfacing with mapmakers and seeking approval on changes.
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Someone made some content for free to be used by others. An organisation is taking this content and editing it to their pleasure, as they are entitled to do. What's wrong here?
Like. . .I get that a map maker spends a lot of time on their map and might disagree with what people do, but when you create something "open source" it's going to get edited, and not necessarily in a way you like, and certainly not with you being informed every time. Maybe MLG would be kinder if they told the map maker before general release or something, but that's really the very limits of any obligation.
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EPT
