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On May 12 2012 04:58 TrickyGilligan wrote:
Sadly, I don't really think there's much you can do about it. Once you make a map and publish it to Battle.net, anyone can download it and mess with it as they see fit. I don't think this is right, but I also don't think there's any way around it. Making maps proprietary opens up an entirely new can of worms, that I don't really think we want to get into.
On the other hand though, I'm really sick of each tournament making small changes to maps. Are close positions allowed? Is it only cross positions? Will there be a supply depot at the bottom of my ramp? It's too much for both players and spectators. I want to be able to just watch a game on a map I know, without all the endless caveats and addendums the casters have to go through every single time. I also hear all the time in interviews with players, "You knew that map only had cross spawns, so were you checking the close ones for proxies?" "Wait, what? Really?"
This isn't exactly true. Once you make a map and publish it to battle.net, the system is designed so that people can only download and EDIT the map in the galaxy editor if you publish the map as "unlocked" - which no professional map will be published as.
The problem here lies in that tournaments want us to give them the map file so they can publish it under their official accounts and add whatever tags they like - "MLG Cloud Kingdom" for example - so players know that they are playing on the correct version as per MLG.
Does this give the tournament organizers the ability to edit the map? Yes. But only because no proper read-only .sc2map stuff exists at this point (which is frankly really fucking stupid.)
Does this give the tournament organizers the right to edit the map?
Not without the mapmaker's consent, as far as I'm concerned.
Maps are designed with features and their concept in mind and nobody should know these things better than the map's creator itself. If the map's creator feels like the islands on Metropolis are bad and opts to remove them, fair enough. I wouldn't agree with his decision, but at the end of the day it's his decision to make.
To sum this up, it's not a matter of intellectual property. It's not a matter of "oh they have the map file so they can do whatever they want" - it's a matter of respect. These guys work really fricken hard to bring you new and exciting maps to make your tournament experience better for spectators and players alike and all we really recieve in return is a warm fuzzy feeling that we're making a difference in the professional scene and our map is going to get played on air in front of thousands with our favorite players. To crap all over that by defacing a map in any way without consulting the mapmaker is flat out disrespectful and simply put a shitty thing to do overall.
TL;DR This is not fucking okay. Yes, I am fucking chapped about it.
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To be completely honest I don't feel it's a big deal. Sure, I can't say that while being a map maker, but you came here to get feedback from everybody knowing that, so I'll explain why I think this anyway.
This kind of stuff happens all the time and we've just come to accept it. You can buy a Macbook and throw Windows on it. You can take your newspapers and use it to start a campfire, you can pay for a whore to have her sit there and listen to you bitch about your day.
When you publish your maps you consent to the terms Blizzard goes by which states people are allowed to do these things. You've paid the price by consenting to those terms just like my co-worker paid the price of 1k for his Macbook he put Windows on and like the whore that I got to listen to my problems + Show Spoiler +. You can try to combat it, but it's extremely unlikely it will go anywhere.
You probably know that though, and with that said your question is somewhat rhetorical is it not? I understand it's more of an expression in this case, but I don't know what you want me to tell you other than to sympathize with you. Unless I'm mistaken with Blizzards terms and the tournament organizations are actually breaching terms by editing and using your maps. In that case, give them hell.
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This needs a poll...
Poll: Should organisations always consult map makers before making changes?Yes (95) 74% No (27) 21% Impartial (4) 3% Circumstantial (why?) (2) 2% 128 total votes Your vote: Should organisations always consult map makers before making changes? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Circumstantial (why?)
(Vote): Impartial
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As you said the Blizz EULA allows it so..
Why does it bother you that other people modify your maps more to their liking anyway?
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Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay?
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
which is all the more reason why MLG should consult if they want a map makers map.
Just make your own maps.
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If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament.
If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them.
On May 12 2012 05:18 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay?
The viewers have the ultimate regard for MLG and other organizations. If they can't meet the mapmakers halfway and they lose spectators they'll have no choice in the matter really.
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
JungleBasinSteppesofWarMetalopolisXelNageCavernsBlisteringSands
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It's same as open source software... if you are upset people are modding it however they like, it's probably not for you.
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
If they "went back to creating their own maps", they'd have to actually pay a map maker. Might be a good start.
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On May 12 2012 05:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament.
If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them.
There is no rights to maps, which I really don't see as a problem. The alternative is way worse IMHO.
It probably would be a good practice for tournament to ask the map maker out of respect, but, like you don't need explicit permission to mod a open source (by which I mean open edit/modification) software, it's not required.
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On May 12 2012 05:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament. If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them. Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:18 prodiG wrote:On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay? The viewers have the ultimate regard for MLG and other organizations. If they can't meet the mapmakers halfway and they lose spectators they'll have no choice in the matter really.
Is that what it really has to come to? "Our way or the highway?" That only works out poorly for everyone involved usually...
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Eh no sympathy for the map makers. Work out a better deal if you want to preserve your maps. Someone changing a map doesn't destroy your original so any frustrations are more about entitlement than any actual reason.
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I'm pretty angry at mapmakers being so abused by tournaments and organisations.
They deserve more for their work. If the maps maker decide the map is like that, why tournaments change it ? They don't know shit about mapmaking as far as I know.
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Why does MLG think they understand map balance better than the map maker?
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4713 Posts
This is actually a big problem, and I'm shocked that the community is treating this as an insignificant event.
What prodiG said is 100% true, the map makers know their maps in and out more then anyone but the pro players, until they have played hundreds of hours on the map.
To completely disregard the map maker, who put in a lot of his spare time and energy for the sake of what he loves, is incredibly disrespectful, and I am quite frankly disgusted by some of the reactions so far.
Just because map makers don't have a say in it is a problem, and they definitely should have a say.
Remember one more thing that prodiG didn't mention but is still absolutely critical, maps also create balance. Yes I said it, if you where to bring back some of the older maps and make them a majority in a tournament, not only flat out broken maps like Steppes of War, but even maps like Shattered Temple and Xel'Naga Caverns (considered at some points in time quite balanced). Then you'd see the balance and strength of races change dramatically from what you may be used to now.
If map makers don't get the respect they deserve, who is going to continue making maps for the next 8 years of SC2's life? Who is going tweak and fine tune each and every area of the map, down to the tiniest ramp and even its orientation?
If that respect isn't there this won't work, some of the very talented and bright map makers we have will just stop making maps, what benefits do they get from it anyway? And who is to suffer, us and the game.
Seriously guys, try to think ahead for more then 2-3 sentences.
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On May 12 2012 05:27 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament. If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them. On May 12 2012 05:18 prodiG wrote:On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote:
Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay? The viewers have the ultimate regard for MLG and other organizations. If they can't meet the mapmakers halfway and they lose spectators they'll have no choice in the matter really. Is that what it really has to come to? "Our way or the highway?" That only works out poorly for everyone involved usually...
Well no, but if MLG keeps ignoring you and you don't do anything about it then I'd consider you an idiot. At the end of the day if it bothers you as much as you say it does it is worth fighting for, no matter the outcome.
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On May 12 2012 05:27 Logo wrote:
Eh no sympathy for the map makers. Work out a better deal if you want to preserve your maps. Someone changing a map doesn't destroy your original so any frustrations are more about entitlement than any actual reason.
...This kind of comments are sad. Yeah, and it will be perfect if mapmakers stop making map because of that. I am impatient to look at the next MLG matches on Step of War.
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On May 12 2012 05:30 Destructicon wrote:
This is actually a big problem, and I'm shocked that the community is treating this as an insignificant event.
What prodiG said is 100% true, the map makers know their maps in and out more then anyone but the pro players, until they have played hundreds of hours on the map.
To completely disregard the map maker, who put in a lot of his spare time and energy for the sake of what he loves, is incredibly disrespectful, and I am quite frankly disgusted by some of the reactions so far.
Just because map makers don't have a say in it is a problem, and they definitely should have a say.
Remember one more thing that prodiG didn't mention but is still absolutely critical, maps also create balance. Yes I said it, if you where to bring back some of the older maps and make them a majority in a tournament, not only flat out broken maps like Steppes of War, but even maps like Shattered Temple and Xel'Naga Caverns. Then you'd see the balance and strength of races change dramatically from what you may be used to now.
If map makers don't get the respect they deserve, who is going to continue making maps for the next 8 years of SC2's life? Who is going tweak and fine tune each and every area of the map, down to the tiniest ramp and even its orientation?
If that respect isn't there this won't work, some of the very talented and bright map makers we have will just stop making maps, what benefits do they get from it anyway? And who is to suffer, us and the game.
Seriously guys, try to think ahead for more then 2-3 sentences.
If Map makers aren't giving proper respect... they should just stop giving out the map source files and rely on publishing locked bnet versions.
Tournament organizers are under control of the spectators and players and map makers control their map files. So long as the former group demands quality maps and the latter group demands control of their map why wouldn't it work out?
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EPT
