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On April 16 2012 20:31 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 18:44 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 16 2012 18:41 Netsky wrote:
Maybe I'm totally out of the loop (sorry don't follow that much BW recently), but what does this mean?
"For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW." In a best of 7. Game 1: Brood War. Game 2: SC2. Game 3: BW Game 4: SC2 Game 5: BW Game 6: SC2 Game 7 (ace match): Always BW. Or something like that. Maybe Game 1 would be SC2 and it alternates from there but with Game 7 always being BW. It's a very ugly format, tbh. I would much rather have both games be in separate leagues. This is so wrong .. It goes a little something like this: Game 1: Broodwar Game 2: SC2 Game 3: LoL Game 4: SF2 Game 5: Go Game 6: Tekken Game 7: Soccer or Football or whatever you call that damned name of a game kicking a spotted ball.
Well i guess it was either 1 game of BW 1 game of SC2 or they just completely switch to sc2 which would have pissed everyone off more.
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That is somehow sad yet hilarious at the same time. thank you for that good sir!
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5003 Posts
On April 16 2012 15:25 doothegee wrote:
Typical bullshit from trash reporting companies. (Ilgan sports? Really?) The article says "Korean fans have begun to be more accepting of Starcraft 2 blahblahblah" when it's clear that absolutely noone thinks this is a good idea. Then again, this means that Kespa is trying to pressure e-sports news sources to write pro-SC2 articles, so the switch is probably bound to happen.
They have no choice. Remember, they have to say those kinds of things for PR.
Fomos started covering SC2 again just around when the computers and swapped and all of that. From that you can figure out when they were actually serious about the idea.
Anyway there's still nothing for certain. KeSPA can still pull a "ok we're doing SC2 completely". There's many things in "theory" that makes them like the bw/sc2 thing they're planning though...
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On April 16 2012 20:40 hakha wrote:That is somehow sad yet hilarious at the same time. thank you for that good sir!
There could be still winner league, the article says "those who are good with both games get more spotlight". Now i would call that really amazing if someone rolls in both games.
As for BW dieing, as long as ppl plays the game, its never going to end. Also i'am 100% sure, there will be ex-pro players streaming, and some "undergroundish" tournaments still happening.
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did i really see someone act all antagonistic and defensive about SC2 GMs vs A+ ICCUP players.....
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As bad as I feel for BW taking this turn (I like to watch BW sometimes), I can't help but gloat a bit when I read the amount of elitist comments in this thread.
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I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
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On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that.
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EPICNESS OVER 9000
User was warned for this post
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On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
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On April 16 2012 20:22 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 16 2012 20:11 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote:
I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15. See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2. If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer. "Destruction" is a pretty exaggerated term. We're just saying it would be no fun to watch them in SC2. Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage. But then again, these aren't very good examples since they're old pros anyway. Still, it wouldn't be fun. We'd just be constantly reminded that the maneuvers they pull in SC2 would be a lot cooler (and a lot harder to do) if they did it in BW. The problem is with the majority of sc2 fans who argued that sc2 is focus more on strategy than mechanics makes me think everything should be automated from rallying scvs to mineral,to making marines with a single click and getting upgrades also with a single click . So they can sit back and relax while microing at battle's only .
The other problem I think with this argument is that this focus assumes that it will promote more creative strategies. Unfortunately there are huge inhibitions to strategy development in SC2. For example Warpgate costs 50/50 and seemingly takes hours to research, it is also a "must have" research. Can we realistically expect for example, super fast +1 air upgrades before warpgate research, not really. Yet fast +1 air is almost staple in PvZ nowadays in BW. In fact this is one of the main gripes with SC2, anything outside that boringly "necessary" linear tech path, and you are stepping into the world of cheese, because without warp-gate, forcefields, a factory, a starport, in the early game, you face dire consequences if your opponent sees what's coming.
SC2 strategy development is tied down by all these early game, absolutely necessary before anything else, tech that takes too long or is too cheap or is "too necessary". Stim takes half the amount of time in BW than it does in SC2, Concussive shells costs 50/50, ups for bio only need armory instead of science facility, heal also comes with drop, etc, etc, etc. No longer is there this decision making of do I want fast drop, or do I want a stronger bio army, or do I want faster science facility for faster upgrades? you are going to need an armory eventually to upgrade your tanks, healers also give you drop, and you need a starport to get healers. Where is the potential strategy development? You must get a starport if you are gonna use stim a lot, well you have drop now so why the hell not! you must get an armory to get bio ups, so then +1 mech weapons, tanks and easy mech transition ahoy! In BW you can have 5 raxes before your 1st factory but limit yourself to +1 attack and not tech for a long time, then lift all your raxes and drop 5 facts, or you can go 1-1-1 and make valkyries, or make 8 raxes, lift your tech only factory and pump nothing but bio and a handful of vessels the whole game.
In the end SC2 TvZ has become more "focused" on mechanics than BW has, because of these painfully linear tech paths. Sure MKP can micro his bio a while longer than others, and we do see reactor hellion openings, but most of the game, and most games always look very similar. Contrast that of how Flash plays on Matchpoint Eye of the Storm and Sniper Ridge. Matchpoint he goes for heavy metal play, pure mech from beginning to end. Eye of the Storm 8 Rax SKTerran pure bio from beginning to end. Sniper Ridge, +1 5 Rax opening, once mid-late-game he lifts all the raxes and transitions to pure mech.
BW still has awesome strategies coming out, that I think are more deep and interesting than SC2. In BW you can't get away with just being sneaky and winning outright such as the maka rax (unless you are Flash). And longer serving strategies such as Stephano ZvP which is basically a mass roach 3rd denial build, pales in comparison to builds like 3 base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra, which its efficiency is almost based on simcity design and countering Protoss tech directly with its own, designed to counter the original Bisu build. Shortly thereafter the neo Bisu +1 air ups speedlot build was invented.
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/a/a4/Neo_bisu.jpg)
Instead what you get is extremely well thought out strategies that serve to counter a series of responses from the defender to get you enough ahead that you can. I present to you, the most abusive build of 2011, the evil build.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=220358
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On April 16 2012 20:59 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
Bbbbbusted
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On April 16 2012 20:59 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
On April 16 2012 20:57 howLiN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that.
Yes, you see it everywhere as soon as this BW vs Sc2 topic pops up.
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On April 16 2012 21:00 sluggaslamoo wrote:
The other problem I think with this argument is that this focus assumes that it will promote more creative strategies. Unfortunately there are huge inhibitions to strategy development in SC2. For example Warpgate costs 50/50 and seemingly takes hours to research, it is also a "must have" research. Can we realistically expect for example, super fast +1 air upgrades before warpgate research, not really. Yet fast +1 air is almost staple in PvZ nowadays in BW. In fact this is one of the main gripes with SC2, anything outside that boringly "necessary" linear tech path, and you are stepping into the world of cheese, because without warp-gate, forcefields, a factory, a starport, in the early game, you face dire consequences if your opponent sees what's coming.
SC2 strategy development is tied down by all these early game, absolutely necessary before anything else, tech that takes too long or is too cheap or is "too necessary". Stim takes half the amount of time in BW than it does in SC2, Concussive shells costs 50/50, ups for bio only need armory instead of science facility, heal also comes with drop, etc, etc, etc. No longer is there this decision making of do I want fast drop, or do I want a stronger bio army, or do I want faster science facility for faster upgrades? you are going to need an armory eventually to upgrade your tanks, healers also give you drop, and you need a starport to get healers. Where is the potential strategy development? You must get a starport if you are gonna use stim, you must get tanks to kill banelings, therefore you must get an armory. In BW you can have 5 raxes before your 1st factory but limit yourself to +1 attack and not tech for a long time, or you can go 1-1-1 and make valkyries, or make 8 raxes, lift your tech only factory and pump nothing but bio and a handful of vessels.
Forge FE against Terran, used 3 times in the GSL in the past week, never previously. Also, SC2 Terran has like 50 viable openings what the hell are you talking about.
On April 16 2012 21:04 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:59 Ribbon wrote:On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
I'm sick to death of the "give it time!" argument from BW fans. Hyun had years of experience in BW, there's no excuse for him not to have built off that knowledge
;P
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To be frank Why HyuN or ForGG "fails" is different from what people believe it is. Its not they are bad, its that they are either unmotivated or unguided and they both still play "BW styled" SC2 and you can't play it like that, ForGG fucks up on simple hotkeying... its pretty sad to see. Those players in BW teams will transition much more smoothly than players who broke out and joined SC2 teams, SC2 teams won't really guide you in HOW to lose BW centered mentality and create new SC2 one. However BW teams where everyone will face the exact same problem which is "how to translate my ablities into SC2" will have much better environment for that improvement. Its not the matter of innate skills, because BW was deeper proving ground in that regard and HyuN/ForGG passed it long time ago.
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Sweet, more better people to make e-sport more fun to watch!
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On April 16 2012 21:11 bgx wrote:
To be frank Why HyuN or ForGG "fails" is different from what people believe it is. Its not they are bad, its that they are either unmotivated or unguided and they both still play "BW styled" SC2 and you can't play it like that, ForGG fucks up on simple hotkeying... its pretty sad to see. Those players in BW teams will transition much more smoothly than players who broke out and joined SC2 teams, SC2 teams won't really guide you in HOW to lose BW centered mentality and create new SC2 one. However BW teams where everyone will face the exact same problem which is "how to translate my ablities into SC2" will have much better environment for that improvement. Its not the matter of innate skills, because BW was deeper proving ground in that regard and HyuN/ForGG passed it long time ago.
I was thinking about that when it comes to ForGG some time ago (about the time when he did his Code S debut). He really grinds games like a madman so it's not that he is unmotivated and he has been playing SC2 since season 1 so it's not really like he is playing "BWish". The problem is actually like you said, his hotkeying. He loses sooooo many games by not having all his orbitals on like 0 when he has more than three of theem. By that time he has his scv count finished but he is missing out so much on economy because he is missing so many mules. Like that series against Leenock in Code S, he had like 1 or 2 orbitals full with energy that he didn't use and that is one huge thing that cost him the games.
>_<!!
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Glad about the ace match thing I guess, would be a travesty if they rotated on that. Also means BW LR thread, yay.....
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On April 16 2012 21:04 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:59 Ribbon wrote:On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly. Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 20:57 howLiN wrote:On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote:
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that. Yes, you see it everywhere as soon as this BW vs Sc2 topic pops up.
Hyun joined TSL in November and stated he started playing a month prior to joining them. that gives us six months, everybody who's seen HyuN play recently knows that the guy has an awful gamesense and sense of strategy. He basically just maxes out on a unit then a-moves and then keeps doing that until he wins or loses. T_T
However I do not support the argument that bw players are mechanics-only, but BW and SC2 are different games. Your skill can translate over to starcraft 2, but it can certainly not do it as well. bw skill does not = sc2 skill. that is the most stupid argument ever. a BW player most likely has a slightly bigger advantage over a player from wc3/c&c/etc. but just slightly.
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EPT
