News regarding next year's pro league just came out, To quickly summerise :
"Possibility of complete translation to sc2 from next year's new proleague." "For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW." "All pros have started practising SC2 since the end of last season and Pros who shows good play from both games will gain more chance of playing" "Pro teams made clear that they won't recruit any current SC2 players for 1 year to give BW Pros chance to adapt at this new game." "But it is expected that lot of players will still retire once this transition takes place."
Them not recruiting current SC2 pros is actually a godsend for the current teams in Korea. If they were recruiting the best players, you better believe all the top players would be poached and the current SC2 teams would die.
This is actually a great thing for GOMTV/GSL/GSTL. This will just increase the popularity of SC2 in Korea. Koreans won't have anything else to watch other than GOMTV stuff so it should boost their numbers.
To all you "meh, bound to happen"-types... f* you. BW has been such a huge part of my life, I can't just be apathetic to this.
If they don't keep BW going, the term "ESPORTS" is fundamentally flawed and will never truly exist. You don't just "scrap" a true sport. True sports have one thing in common: great history. Proleague is a part of that enormous and invaluable history that belongs to gaming, and if it trashes BW, then we no longer have esports.
On April 16 2012 15:14 Keone wrote: To all you "meh, bound to happen"-types... f* you. BW has been such a huge part of my life, I can't just be apathetic to this.
If they don't keep BW going, the term "ESPORTS" is fundamentally flawed and will never truly exist. You don't just "scrap" a true sport. True sports have one thing in common: great history. Proleague is a part of that enormous and invaluable history that belongs to gaming, and if it trashes BW, then we no longer have esports.
It has been for mine as well, and I know that sc2 will NEVER be a better game, but be real here, BW has been nothing outside of korea for years, its dwindling fast in korea. Sc2 is getting huge, and it honestly isn't that bad. I guess I could say sc2 has actually been a bigger deal for me, considering all the awesome friends I've made at uni because of it. Its been 12 years dude, I wish I got into BW back in 2003 or something (don't be fooled by 2011 join date first account was 2008), but that wasn't the case, so I will choose to embrace sc2. If it was up to me sc2 would never have come out, and thats the difference between me and the guy below me who probably doesn't know a single thing about bw and its history but says OMG FLASH SC2 PLS
And "esports" is a silly word and I wish it didn't exist.
And "esports" is a silly word and I wish it didn't exist.
Yes.. I really don't understand what this is. People keep throwing it all around and kept on pushing the idea that BW needs to die for the betterment of this so called 'esports'. lol
On April 16 2012 15:14 Keone wrote: To all you "meh, bound to happen"-types... f* you. BW has been such a huge part of my life, I can't just be apathetic to this.
If they don't keep BW going, the term "ESPORTS" is fundamentally flawed and will never truly exist. You don't just "scrap" a true sport. True sports have one thing in common: great history. Proleague is a part of that enormous and invaluable history that belongs to gaming, and if it trashes BW, then we no longer have esports.
No, you just need to accept the fact that BW will be gone, finally. I highly doubt that BW had been a bigger part of your life than mine, but what's done is done.
Either embrace SC2 or make it the end of being a progaming spectator. I am the latter.
Typical bullshit from trash reporting companies. (Ilgan sports? Really?) The article says "Korean fans have begun to be more accepting of Starcraft 2 blahblahblah" when it's clear that absolutely noone thinks this is a good idea. Then again, this means that Kespa is trying to pressure e-sports news sources to write pro-SC2 articles, so the switch is probably bound to happen.
Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
On April 16 2012 15:28 newvsoldschool wrote: Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
Surely, regardless of the game, the skill of the players will always show interesting matches... I mean there are build order wins in sc2, and awesome ways to come back. I think you're being a bit too cynical.
I really wish I was around to be a BW fan back in the day. I didn't start watching till 2010, and I must admit this is sad. I used to play Halo 2 and it was by far one of my favorite games ever. I've competed at multiple MLG's in 05 and 06 then the terrible switch to Halo 3 happened. So overall, I get it BW fans...and I feel bad for you
If any good comes out of this, most of the BW pros/A teamers will just switch over to SC2, I think it's for the best if Kespa does make the switch....just don't retire
So they are really going through with this aren't they? Well, if it bombs hopefully they will blame it on the sc2 part and not BW and then KeSPA will go back to hosting BW only tournaments.
On April 16 2012 15:28 newvsoldschool wrote: Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
Surely, regardless of the game, the skill of the players will always show interesting matches... I mean there are build order wins in sc2, and awesome ways to come back. I think you're being a bit too cynical.
I dunno. I could never get into sc2 streaming or playing. It's not the lack of flashy lights or noises. I just don't think about it all the time like I did w/ BW. That and there's a lack of flashy distinct plays imo. I can't explain it.
This is really stupid. BW and SC2, despite being similar RTS games, still have large differences in gameplay. They are two different skill sets to master and memorize, and now these pros can't just specialize in one of them
Are we going to see BW pros suiciding mutas into marines in SC2 while accidentally mass-storming in BW?
I don't know. Maybe the games are similar enough. Maybe it would be like switching between LoL and HoN. Can any players here that play two MOBA games at the same time talk about what it's like?
If they were planning to switch they could've done it fully so I don't have to sit through horrid SC2 matches to watch BW and instead just drop it completely :/
On April 16 2012 15:28 newvsoldschool wrote: Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
Surely, regardless of the game, the skill of the players will always show interesting matches... I mean there are build order wins in sc2, and awesome ways to come back. I think you're being a bit too cynical.
I dunno. I could never get into sc2 streaming or playing. It's not the lack of flashy lights or noises. I just don't think about it all the time like I did w/ BW. That and there's a lack of flashy distinct plays imo. I can't explain it.
I haven't watched a SC2 game in months.
Personally I think the game needs to develop more, and BW players will help this immensely. You have to realise that SC1 pre-BW didn't have nearly the potential of BW. Sc2 is still very young, especially when compared to other games like Street Fighter. The plays will come with time, and I will be happy if most of BW switches over, because that should make it all the more interesting.
On April 16 2012 15:45 lbmaian wrote: This is really stupid. BW and SC2, despite being similar RTS games, still have large differences in gameplay. They are two different skill sets to master and memorize, and now these pros can't just specialize in one of them
Are we going to see BW pros suiciding mutas into marines in SC2 while accidentally mass-storming in BW?
I don't know. Maybe the games are similar enough. Maybe it would be like switching between LoL and HoN. Can any players here that play two MOBA games at the same time talk about what it's like?
You can make that argument. But all the signs leading up to this pointed to a switch over. We all knew blizzard was in talks with OGN/Kespa to facilitate the switch. At the end of the day AFIK, Blizzard could have pulled the plug on BW at anytime. They very well may have done that.
I don't understand how it's acceptable for people to hate on SC2 without any justification (and likely without ever actually giving it a real chance) and yet the reverse is treason. Can someone explain this to me, or is it purely legacy? I'm not disagreeing, it's just odd.
On April 16 2012 15:45 lbmaian wrote: This is really stupid. BW and SC2, despite being similar RTS games, still have large differences in gameplay. They are two different skill sets to master and memorize, and now these pros can't just specialize in one of them
Are we going to see BW pros suiciding mutas into marines in SC2 while accidentally mass-storming in BW?
I don't know. Maybe the games are similar enough. Maybe it would be like switching between LoL and HoN. Can any players here that play two MOBA games at the same time talk about what it's like?
You can make that argument. But all the signs leading up to this pointed to a switch over. We all knew blizzard was in talks with OGN/Kespa to facilitate the switch. At the end of the day AFIK, Blizzard could have pulled the plug on BW at anytime. They very well may have done that.
I'm not talking about the switch itself - I'm not going to get into that argument (I like both games and I don't want to take sides).
It's the stupid way they're doing it: "For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW."
Honestly, I haven't met anyone interested in SC2 in Korea I really do not comprehend this move. I mean the whole hobby is niche as it gets (watching progamers) but there is like zero interest in SC2 in most PCbangs or Korean gaming communities so who is the supposed audience of this switch?
Either I'm missing something here or this is some serious desperation move.
I actually understand if they do this for economical reasons or whatever, but I most likely won't be watching anymore when they switch over to SC2. It's not that I dislike SC2, I enjoy watching White-ra, Dragon, Boxer and some other guys, but it's nowhere near as interesting as BW to me. Not that they care.
On April 16 2012 15:53 wassbix wrote: Honestly, I haven't met anyone interested in SC2 in Korea I really do not comprehend this move. I mean the whole hobby is niche as it gets (watching progamers) but there is like zero interest in SC2 in most PCbangs or Korean gaming communities so who is the supposed audience of this switch?
Either I'm missing something here or this is some serious desperation move.
Sponsor money and foreigners, till it dries out and SC3 will come out.
As someone who has never watched pro BW, it still saddens me that BW teams and leagues are transitioning to SC2. It'd be awesome if they could just be two separate games without SC2 necessarily being the natural successor to BW.
On April 16 2012 15:51 Ruscour wrote: I don't understand how it's acceptable for people to hate on SC2 without any justification (and likely without ever actually giving it a real chance) and yet the reverse is treason. Can someone explain this to me, or is it purely legacy? I'm not disagreeing, it's just odd.
Do you really think that the raging fanbois that BW has produced didn't give SC2 a chance? Like that wasn't the most anticipated game of all time for us. Derp.
On April 16 2012 15:45 lbmaian wrote: This is really stupid. BW and SC2, despite being similar RTS games, still have large differences in gameplay. They are two different skill sets to master and memorize, and now these pros can't just specialize in one of them
Are we going to see BW pros suiciding mutas into marines in SC2 while accidentally mass-storming in BW?
I don't know. Maybe the games are similar enough. Maybe it would be like switching between LoL and HoN. Can any players here that play two MOBA games at the same time talk about what it's like?
You can make that argument. But all the signs leading up to this pointed to a switch over. We all knew blizzard was in talks with OGN/Kespa to facilitate the switch. At the end of the day AFIK, Blizzard could have pulled the plug on BW at anytime. They very well may have done that.
Wrong, which is why there was a legal battle between OGN, MBC, Kespa, and Blizzard.
On April 16 2012 15:51 Ruscour wrote: I don't understand how it's acceptable for people to hate on SC2 without any justification (and likely without ever actually giving it a real chance) and yet the reverse is treason. Can someone explain this to me, or is it purely legacy? I'm not disagreeing, it's just odd.
Saying diehard BW fans did not give SC2 chance is pretty lol. BW fans were hyped about the game before the first trailer even launched, most gave the game and chance and decided it wasn't for them. Personally, I played the hell out the beta and found it completely lacking the charm and excitment of BW, and therefore drop it completely.
On April 16 2012 15:25 Crissaegrim wrote: Saddest day of my life. Cant believe SC2 is "succeeding" the great BW. Sc2 imo is not a worthy successor, not in the least.
Child, you make my bone ache from this.
Broodwar will never die as long as we are there to remember it. Starcraft 2 indeed has failed us, but better to see Jaedong playing with Broodlords than with some moba character.
as a sc2 "fan" (= i watch it a lot still)who only watched very very few bw games/youtube highlight videos i think this is a very sad day.
bw games are in general a lot more interesting to watch than sc2 i think and it sucks that the greatest esports as of yet has to die because of outdated graphics basically.
to bad you cannot create a 1 : 1 copy with better graphics (no cs:s!) because i think if that happened everybody would play sc.
On April 16 2012 15:25 Crissaegrim wrote: Saddest day of my life. Cant believe SC2 is "succeeding" the great BW. Sc2 imo is not a worthy successor, not in the least.
Child, you make my bone ache from this.
Broodwar will never die as long as we are there to remember it. Starcraft 2 indeed has failed us, but better to see Jaedong playing with Broodlords than with some moba character.
Nope, It's gonna die... Maybe a living memory perhaps?
On April 16 2012 15:51 Ruscour wrote: I don't understand how it's acceptable for people to hate on SC2 without any justification (and likely without ever actually giving it a real chance) and yet the reverse is treason. Can someone explain this to me, or is it purely legacy? I'm not disagreeing, it's just odd.
SC2 was the so hotly anticipated among us BW fans when it was announced. Most BW fans would have tried watching and playing SC2. I personally played the crap out of it during beta. I've watched the tournaments. After all that effort, it's safe to say that SC2 has no appeal to me.
Conversely, most SC2 fans have never played BW. So... your basic assumption is wrong.
On April 16 2012 15:53 wassbix wrote: Honestly, I haven't met anyone interested in SC2 in Korea I really do not comprehend this move. I mean the whole hobby is niche as it gets (watching progamers) but there is like zero interest in SC2 in most PCbangs or Korean gaming communities so who is the supposed audience of this switch?
Either I'm missing something here or this is some serious desperation move.
Sponsor money and foreigners, till it dries out and SC3 will come out.
Lets be real, OGN/Kespa doesn't market to foreign audiences. Look at all the PL/OSL/MSL sponsors and tell me anyone outside of Korea would have heard of those companies (I guess coke and pringles count...)
Unless of course they have some agreement where Blizzard sponsors major tournaments but I highly doubt this.
And "esports" is a silly word and I wish it didn't exist.
Yes.. I really don't understand what this is. People keep throwing it all around and kept on pushing the idea that BW needs to die for the betterment of this so called 'esports'. lol
On TL, "esports" means "SC2", never any other competitive game, which is highly unfortunate because there's a lot of other good competitive games out there (including BW).
On the bright side, Flash+Bisu+Jaedong switch to Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 hosts foreign tournament in America/Europe/etc. Korea sends said players. We meet said players and get autographs/meeting/a high five/hug.
I wouldnt mind if our current BW heroes are able to take SC2 to a new level and become SC2 heroes.
BW is an excellent game, many people will still play it. The theory of all good things come to an end applies to this .
Most fans in BW tend to follow the progamer himself, I hope that will hold true. It's all about how well they market the game and the overall presentation is how popular SC2 can become more mainstream.
This is nothing new. This is an old article that doesn't provide anything concrete about how the next proleague will look like. It talks more about fan responses about the possible change more than anything else.
Please don't get the wrong idea from the poorly-worded OP and title.
(really doesn't deserve a separate thread from the "rumours" one)
Though it's just reporting on rumors and speculating, it's also the Korean media's job to report on rumors they think are credible and of use to the fans.
Speculation on the possibility of a full SC2 change by sufficiently credible media, instead of the BW/SC2 change hinted at up to now is a new development worth discussion, I think.
I feel sorry for all the Brood War fans. They're losing the sport that they love. I hope they can grow to appreciate Starcraft 2 like I have but I understand that its a different game and not everyone will appreciate both of them. Someday I hope Starcraft 2 reaches the glory that Brood War has. Let's not flame each other or argue over which game is better, just be respectful of people mourning that they might not be able to see much Brood War anymore while also being respectful of SC2 fans being excited that the legends that they've heard so much about will be playing the game that they follow.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
And would it be that wrong for them to believe in whatever they had in mind? The best RTS players are possibly going to switch from a game that they don't follow into a game that they do follow, and I don't see a problem with people getting excited to see how a game develops with the best RTS minds in the world playing it. If all the BW pros switched to Command and Conquer or LoL or DotA or Age of Empires or Warcraft 3, I would expect fans of those games to be excited as well.
Of course, there are limits of what can be said without being disrespectful.
On April 16 2012 16:35 phosphorylation wrote: You don't get it, and coincidentally you also seem to be sc2-exclusive fan.
No, I'm not an sc2 exclusive fan, now who's making presumptions?
I might not know everything about the game but I do watch most of ogn content. just to clarify; I watch, sc2, dota, lol and bw as well as play them (well not bw and sc2 so much nowadays)
It is sad to see BW go this way, but at least we will have the ace match still be BW . Hopefully this partnership will boost SC2 and BW to levels of competitiveness and viewership that has never been seen before, and might just bring some SC2 players over to BW.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
And would it be that wrong for them to believe in whatever they had in mind? The best RTS players are possibly going to switch from a game that they don't follow into a game that they do follow, and I don't see a problem with people getting excited to see how a game develops with the best RTS minds in the world playing it. If all the BW pros switched to Command and Conquer or LoL or DotA or Age of Empires or Warcraft 3, I would expect fans of those games to be excited as well.
Of course, there are limits of what can be said without being disrespectful.
They are not the best RTS players. They are the best Brood War players. There is a huge difference. But that's it, isn't it. It's all about the hype. I've been hyped about SC2 before and that was before the first few games I've played with it and watched it for like 6 months or less after it's official release (not beta).
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
And would it be that wrong for them to believe in whatever they had in mind? The best RTS players are possibly going to switch from a game that they don't follow into a game that they do follow, and I don't see a problem with people getting excited to see how a game develops with the best RTS minds in the world playing it. If all the BW pros switched to Command and Conquer or LoL or DotA or Age of Empires or Warcraft 3, I would expect fans of those games to be excited as well.
Of course, there are limits of what can be said without being disrespectful.
My issue wasn't with what he presumably believes or hopes for; read his post again and it's clear that he automatically assumes a certain format for the next season, despite the fact that nothing yet is actually set in stone -- and he would have realized this had he actually read more than title of the thread. It is the nonchalant ignorance that roots partly from over-eagerness that I am against.
On April 16 2012 16:40 Resentable wrote: Holy shit. So this is what the beginning looks like.
This is why the thread should be closed. The opening post is too poorly-worded and poorly-timed -- altogether it is too misleading. There is absolutely no new concrete information regarding the next season in the article, which is also almost week-old itself.
On April 16 2012 15:28 newvsoldschool wrote: Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
Yet it is far from reached. And ForGG proved that ex-BW Champs are not necessarily better than the "average" SCII players.
The rotational system is crap though. As is the lack of interaction with GOMTV.
On April 16 2012 15:56 red4ce wrote: 50% BW + 50% SC2 = 100% bad games dissatisfied fans.
fixed
Not sure what the difference is. You don't think the game quality will decrease dramatically when players cut their practice in half? We already saw it happening this season especially with T8 and CJ but all teams to some extent. The SC2 is gonna suck too. Most people on this side of the forums don't like SC2 at all but even for me who watches lots of SC2 I have no interest in players who don't devote themselves fully to the game.
Er... I'm not going to get into SC2/BW talk that's so prevalent in this thread because it is silly. However, alternating between SC2 and BW? That is the silliest thing I've read in months, no lie. Either have two separate leagues, play two sets of BO5 with BW/SC2 (with a BW ace match if two series are tied or something) or hell just switch to SC2 and call a spade a spade, but don't alternate between SC2 and BW every game. That's just silly.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
No offense, but you sound like a fuckface.
Actually I mean that as offensively as possible
you're kind of proving him right though
On April 16 2012 16:58 Pronkers wrote: Honestly if you look at both games from a professional viewpoint.. Starcraft II is a joke compared to BW.
The sc2 mechanical skillcap was reached long ago; everything in professional level play is mostly decisionmaking.
I don't think so, there are still a lot of errors that even pro's make (on the mechanical skill cap i mean, anyone can tell you bw is easily superior)
The worst thing is even with players having their attention split between BW and SC2, SPL and OSL finals produced one of the best matches in modern BW history, if whole 2 years of BW were crap it would be ok to switch, but leaving it while its STILL strong is sad.
Also, can't wait to (possibly) see some of the top BW pros in SC2 soon
1) Why SC2 needs BW Pros so badly?
2) I agree with the opinion, that if BW is dropped, "e-sports" never existed, and it was only about making money on computer games.
3) I've got too much love for BW to stop watching it because of bad formula. And, if they put SC2 into PL, I just turn around and wait until SC2 game finishes.
On April 16 2012 17:04 bgx wrote: The worst thing is even with players having their attention split between BW and SC2, SPL and OSL finals produced one of the best matches in modern BW history, if whole 2 years of BW were crap it would be ok to switch, but leaving it while its STILL strong is sad.
Interesting time to be a sc2 fan I guess because we all know that Bw is where the strongest talent comes from . I mean seriously they are hyping stephano,huk,mvp,mkp,nestea ? . Time to move over you guys because the big guns are coming in and they are going to make history repeat itself . Korean domination all over again.
Looks like Bisu is getting owned hard by Flash from the pic in the OP. Edit: Wait... SC2... what if flash plays protoss and bisu plays terran.....~mindblow~
I hope some of the better pros try to breakaway from KESPA and form a competing bw league. I can't imagine too many of the players are happy with this...it wont let them be the best at either game. Kespa's going to run numerous careers into the ground with this decision
That being said, I suppose KESPA's difficulty finding sponsors this year will mean it is nearly impossible for a rogue bw league. In addition I have never seen much precidence for either teams or players going against KESPA....I mean couldn't they strike against this. That would have happened long ago if an organization like KESPA were to pull something so drastic in the states.
On April 16 2012 16:58 Pronkers wrote: Honestly if you look at both games from a professional viewpoint.. Starcraft II is a joke compared to BW.
The sc2 mechanical skillcap was reached long ago; everything in professional level play is mostly decisionmaking.
You obivously havent watch a single game of SC2 if you think that the mechanical skillcap was reach "long ago". Its not even closed to be reached and you can see improvments in all pros play from month to month. Your comment is just ignorant and hatefull towards all SC2 fans.
The idea of half and half always seemed silly to me. BW and SC2 are very different games, and many fans of one game are not fans of the other. It's like fucking going to a sports game where the first half is playing football and the second half is playing basketball.
I love brood war to death and the only thing all these rumors are succeeding in doing for me is watching every game as if its the last. Osl starting at 4 am, better watch out of respect since its last one... o what a new osl yes! too much hype per game
On a serious note Jaedong is known for his muta micro in bw, Tell me exactly what can Jaedong to distinguish him self from other sc2 pro's if he plays competitively in sc2 ? Banelings micro, Fungal, macro ? It sounds like your typical Code S zerg wannabe .Also I will stick to the theory that if boxer had the same units he had in bw in sc2 he would have destroyed everyone with pure Marine and Medic.
Medivacs is so stupid in creation when you have to rely on a single air ship to heal your units while you can just make a few medics to accompany your marines . Sc2 is amazing.
Ugh...There's already 284859354 sc2 leagues to watch, I wish they could have kept it BW only for at least one more season.
I'm not going to pretend I'm not somewhat interested in seeing how Bisu and Fantasy play sc2 but I hoped it would be held off a little longer.
The quality is games is going to be awful with them trying to practice for both games. I hope they have some players practice sc2 only and some BW only, but then again when the full transition to sc2 comes the BW only guys will get fucked so maybe that's a foolish idea.
Well I don't care what's going on in my life at the time, I'll be going to this last OSL finals.
I've really enjoyed TL these past few years that I've been on it. I hope the amateur scene in Korea explodes so there's still reason to pay attention. Maybe in a couple of years we'll end up with a new pro scene that has learned from many mistakes, no Kespa, and a revival. Maybe I just won't follow ESPORTS anymore.
For anyone that says true sports never die. That statement is true, but there is also no precedence for it. If there was suddenly the invention of baseball 2, with the same analogous improvements as BW to SC2, are you so sure that people wouldn't switch over? Brood War was a monumentus game that catalyzed the growth of an industry, that can't be questioned. However, how much longer are you going to force continued support for it? In the gaming world, upgrades are expected and necessary for the continued growth of the franchise. If the livelihood of Starcraft were to hinge on how many new players you could convince to play the game, how successful do you think you would be?
Having come from Brood War myself, I can't deny it's nostalgia. However, the continued success of Starcraft now rests with Starcraft 2. This is an open request for the BW old guards to stop viciously attacking anyone that attempts to portray Starcraft 2 as the natural progression from BW. You say that not acknowledging BW hurts eSPORTs - well not giving Starcraft 2 a chance can potentially destroy eSPORTs.
I never got THAT into the BW scene, but I'm sad to see it go. Every once in a while I would go on a week long BW binge and it's just so exciting, even if the presentation is lacking by modern standards (not a complaint, given the game's release date). One of my larger regrets is that I never really committed myself to getting good at SC1/BW, I mostly played BGH and random UMS games since I sucked so bad at legit BW.
On April 16 2012 15:53 wassbix wrote: Honestly, I haven't met anyone interested in SC2 in Korea I really do not comprehend this move. I mean the whole hobby is niche as it gets (watching progamers) but there is like zero interest in SC2 in most PCbangs or Korean gaming communities so who is the supposed audience of this switch?
Either I'm missing something here or this is some serious desperation move.
Sponsor money and foreigners, till it dries out and SC3 will come out.
Lets be real, OGN/Kespa doesn't market to foreign audiences. Look at all the PL/OSL/MSL sponsors and tell me anyone outside of Korea would have heard of those companies (I guess coke and pringles count...)
Unless of course they have some agreement where Blizzard sponsors major tournaments but I highly doubt this.
That might change soon.
OGN's LoL league has English commentators (Moletrap and Torch, last I heard) on their own own3d.tv and twitch.tv streams. OGN doing something similar for SC2 would not be unprecedented. Heck, maybe it might be interesting to see old faces cast BW again in the hybrid league.
Plus, according to an article buried in the other rumors thread, KeSPA just can't find sponsors for BW. Even with great games and great storylines attracting a huge (but shrinking) BW fanbase, the sponsors just aren't lining up. Match fixing scandal and IP rights lawsuit have caused too much damage, and the viewership, though still large, has declined noticeably since its height around 2006.
KeSPA considering SC2 shows how desperate they are for sponsors, and this desperation is manifesting itself in these rumors of huge changes in the near future. Whatever companies they are talking with obviously are extremely apprehensive about sponsoring BW and are possibly more inclined to sponsor SC2.
Basically, I think this entire ordeal is just a dramatic example of how BW's sponsor-based business model in Korea is failing. The game obviously is still very popular to play and watch, but the scene does not make money directly off of those numbers. Instead, the scene makes money off of sponsors who hope to make money off of the game's popularity. But with match fixing and IP rights eroding the scene's legitimacy and other games like LoL and MMOs (but ironically not SC2) eroding the scene's viewer base, the sponsors have backed off even with a big audience that still exists to advertise to. No matter how great the games are and how many fans still line up to watch those games, professional BW just can't function without sponsor money.
KeSPA is trying to turn all this around with some crazy changes, but who knows what else they might try if their SC2 venture completely bombs.
Hopefully that means we get 100,000 live stream viewers on OGN and everyone realises how much better game BW is, and they remove SC2.
First of all, removing BW is going to kill the scene. Do you really think you are going to have the same stadium numbers if you switch to SC2? No, they will all disappear, and Kespa will be competing with Gom for audience numbers. Which are tiny, compared to BW audiences.
Removing BW will also remove any faith of there ever existing a REAL ESPORT. Its a huge irony, that BW players are forced to switch to SC2.
What's the point in getting good at SC2, when SC3 is going to come out and all that childhood devotion will be completely wasted. We will never get star players, because its too risky to start at 12 years old and realise by the time you are old enough to become a progamer, the next game has already come out.
Hell even the expansions are going to completely change the way we play the game. This sucks when you are playing for a career. What the point in maining a race, when you have no idea how that race will be in the next expansion, let alone, balance patch.
The richest SC2 player still, doesn't make a fraction of the money the top BW players make, nor has the security of a high paying salary, rather than prize money. Again, how is this good for progaming careers?
On April 16 2012 17:28 Battousai13 wrote: For anyone that says true sports never die. That statement is true, but there is also no precedence for it. If there was suddenly the invention of baseball 2, with the same analogous improvements as BW to SC2, are you so sure that people wouldn't switch over? Brood War was a monumentus game that catalyzed the growth of an industry, that can't be questioned. However, how much longer are you going to force continued support for it? In the gaming world, upgrades are expected and necessary for the continued growth of the franchise. If the livelihood of Starcraft were to hinge on how many new players you could convince to play the game, how successful do you think you would be?
Having come from Brood War myself, I can't deny it's nostalgia. However, the continued success of Starcraft now rests with Starcraft 2. This is an open request for the BW old guards to stop viciously attacking anyone that attempts to portray Starcraft 2 as the natural progression from BW. You say that not acknowledging BW hurts eSPORTs - well not giving Starcraft 2 a chance can potentially destroy eSPORTs.
Sc2 had it's chances to buy us over loyal bw fans but it hasn't when you produced a good that is sub par compared to it's predecessor which is bw . I don't care about esports never did ,never will . It's like saying for e-sports is going to change anything when everyone is basing on if the game is popular it must be good .
On April 16 2012 15:53 wassbix wrote: Honestly, I haven't met anyone interested in SC2 in Korea I really do not comprehend this move. I mean the whole hobby is niche as it gets (watching progamers) but there is like zero interest in SC2 in most PCbangs or Korean gaming communities so who is the supposed audience of this switch?
Either I'm missing something here or this is some serious desperation move.
Sponsor money and foreigners, till it dries out and SC3 will come out.
Lets be real, OGN/Kespa doesn't market to foreign audiences. Look at all the PL/OSL/MSL sponsors and tell me anyone outside of Korea would have heard of those companies (I guess coke and pringles count...)
Unless of course they have some agreement where Blizzard sponsors major tournaments but I highly doubt this.
That might change soon.
OGN's LoL league has English commentators (Moletrap and Torch, last I heard) on their own own3d.tv and twitch.tv streams. OGN doing something similar for SC2 would not be unprecedented. Heck, maybe it might be interesting to see old faces cast BW again in the hybrid league.
Plus, according to an article buried in the other rumors thread, KeSPA just can't find sponsors for BW. Even with great games and great storylines attracting a huge (but shrinking) BW fanbase, the sponsors just aren't lining up. Match fixing scandal and IP rights lawsuit have caused too much damage, and the viewership, though still large, has declined noticeably since its height around 2006.
KeSPA considering SC2 shows how desperate they are for sponsors, and this desperation is manifesting itself in these rumors of huge changes in the near future. Whatever companies they are talking with obviously are extremely apprehensive about sponsoring BW and are possibly more inclined to sponsor SC2.
Basically, I think this entire ordeal is just a dramatic example of how BW's sponsor-based business model in Korea is failing. The game obviously is still very popular to play and watch, but the scene does not make money directly off of those numbers. Instead, the scene makes money off of sponsors who hope to make money off of the game's popularity. But with match fixing and IP rights eroding the scene's legitimacy and other games like LoL and MMOs (but ironically not SC2) eroding the scene's viewer base, the sponsors have backed off even with a big audience that still exists to advertise to. No matter how great the games are and how many fans still line up to watch those games, professional BW just can't function without sponsor money.
KeSPA is trying to turn all this around with some crazy changes, but who knows what else they might try if their SC2 venture completely bombs.
The article was referring to osl having difficulty finding sponsors for it's starleague . Kespa league is already sanctioned by big companies for each team . I find it difficult for kespa to be saying it has trouble finding sponsors when I still see KT/SKT still sponsoring their teams .
Let's see what happens. I discovered the game with SC2 but I can't say I didn't enjoy BW lately. This may be the final kick that SC2 needs in order to became the legit esport in korea with all these potential fans switching to follow their idols.
Sweet! Is anyone else excited for Flash microing BLUE FLAME HELLIONS, and firing off CONCUSSIVE SHELLS? Jaedong rushing unique unit combos like ROACHES and HYDRALISKS? or even Bisu pulling off some insane COLOSSUS moves? man I can't wait for these BW players to switch to SC2, the next step in competitive RTS gaming! finally, a game where people won't have to rely on mechanics and where strategy can truly shine. EG Jaedong and SK Flash anyone?
On April 16 2012 17:28 Battousai13 wrote: For anyone that says true sports never die. That statement is true, but there is also no precedence for it. If there was suddenly the invention of baseball 2, with the same analogous improvements as BW to SC2, are you so sure that people wouldn't switch over? Brood War was a monumentus game that catalyzed the growth of an industry, that can't be questioned. However, how much longer are you going to force continued support for it? In the gaming world, upgrades are expected and necessary for the continued growth of the franchise. If the livelihood of Starcraft were to hinge on how many new players you could convince to play the game, how successful do you think you would be?
Having come from Brood War myself, I can't deny it's nostalgia. However, the continued success of Starcraft now rests with Starcraft 2. This is an open request for the BW old guards to stop viciously attacking anyone that attempts to portray Starcraft 2 as the natural progression from BW. You say that not acknowledging BW hurts eSPORTs - well not giving Starcraft 2 a chance can potentially destroy eSPORTs.
You are trolling, right? SC2 is not a better version of BW. It is not a "natural progression from BW". It is a different game, and many people (including me) would argue that it is an inferior game. And I'm starting to wish I had a nickel for every person who mentioned nostalgia as the core reason for watching BW.
On April 16 2012 16:58 Pronkers wrote: The sc2 mechanical skillcap was reached long ago; everything in professional level play is mostly decisionmaking.
I agree on the point that decision making is the major part of SC2 professional gaming. Yet you have over 10 years of development in BW in which pro players could perfect their mechanics, but SC2 is still very young. So please let time tell, because you only assume that a certain "skillcap" (which is a very volatile term anyway) is already reached.
On April 16 2012 17:36 whatusername wrote:EG Jaedong and SK Flash anyone?
Such blasphemy is punishable by burning at the stake.
Some could say watching JD massing roaches or Bisu massing collo deathball would be as well. Because it will already destroy the legacy, the most recognizable foundations of JD and Bisu and 20 other top progamers does not exist in SC2.
Can we just cut the elitism out? I've been watching BW for a good five or so years, and yes it's a better game, yes it's harder to play and yes it's more fun to watch. But SC2 is also pretty good to watch, not to mention it's not even got an expansion out to add more flexibility to each race.
How many of you think that vanilla SC would be fun to watch with how awfully unbalanced the multiplayer was?
On April 16 2012 17:36 whatusername wrote: Sweet! Is anyone else excited for Flash microing BLUE FLAME HELLIONS, and firing off CONCUSSIVE SHELLS? Jaedong rushing unique unit combos like ROACHES and HYDRALISKS? or even Bisu pulling off some insane COLOSSUS moves? man I can't wait for these BW players to switch to SC2, the next step in competitive RTS gaming! finally, a game where people won't have to rely on mechanics and where strategy can truly shine. EG Jaedong and SK Flash anyone?
"Pro teams made clear that they won't recruit any current SC2 players for 1 year to give BW Pros chance to adapt at this new game."
This directly contradicts the IM coach and Nestea, who have said the BW teams have been scouting SC2 B-teamers with potential. Someone is lying.
I think KeSPA is doing a door-in-the-face thing, acting like they're going to get rid of BW entirely so people will be more accepting of "only" getting the split league.
A full transition should not be considered before HoTS and even then it depends on how much Blizzard manages to improve the game. Right now BW is just so much better then SC2.
(words from an SC2 fan that never knew of TL or BW as an esport untill late SC2 beta)
On April 16 2012 17:46 Ribbon wrote: Rumors rumors rumors.
"Pro teams made clear that they won't recruit any current SC2 players for 1 year to give BW Pros chance to adapt at this new game."
This directly contradicts the IM coach and Nestea, who have said the BW teams have been scouting SC2 B-teamers with potential. Someone is lying.
Scouting is not recruiting. Also pretty sure there are some b-team SC2 players training currently in BW houses, they are however, not current SC2 players as they don't play in any leagues.
On April 16 2012 17:43 Shrewmy wrote: Can we just cut the elitism out? I've been watching BW for a good five or so years, and yes it's a better game, yes it's harder to play and yes it's more fun to watch. But SC2 is also pretty good to watch, not to mention it's not even got an expansion out to add more flexibility to each race.
How many of you think that vanilla SC would be fun to watch with how awfully unbalanced the multiplayer was?
And how long did you wait for BW? SC vanilla was only five or so months episode thats why no one is talking about it, SC in 3 years changed from vanilla to BW and last patch came out already sealing the deal of balance while SC2 after 2 years has barely functioning chat channels. Do you like that comparison?
On April 16 2012 17:47 Archvil3 wrote: Too soon, should not be happening yet.
Shouldn't be happening ever. KeSPA getting into SC2 is probably inevitable, but actively killing of BW entirely would be an incredibly stupid decision. Even if they end up running it at a loss or shrinking it to save money, BW is Korean e-sports.
On April 16 2012 15:53 wassbix wrote: Honestly, I haven't met anyone interested in SC2 in Korea I really do not comprehend this move. I mean the whole hobby is niche as it gets (watching progamers) but there is like zero interest in SC2 in most PCbangs or Korean gaming communities so who is the supposed audience of this switch?
Either I'm missing something here or this is some serious desperation move.
Sponsor money and foreigners, till it dries out and SC3 will come out.
Lets be real, OGN/Kespa doesn't market to foreign audiences. Look at all the PL/OSL/MSL sponsors and tell me anyone outside of Korea would have heard of those companies (I guess coke and pringles count...)
Unless of course they have some agreement where Blizzard sponsors major tournaments but I highly doubt this.
That might change soon.
OGN's LoL league has English commentators (Moletrap and Torch, last I heard) on their own own3d.tv and twitch.tv streams. OGN doing something similar for SC2 would not be unprecedented. Heck, maybe it might be interesting to see old faces cast BW again in the hybrid league.
Plus, according to an article buried in the other rumors thread, KeSPA just can't find sponsors for BW. Even with great games and great storylines attracting a huge (but shrinking) BW fanbase, the sponsors just aren't lining up. Match fixing scandal and IP rights lawsuit have caused too much damage, and the viewership, though still large, has declined noticeably since its height around 2006.
KeSPA considering SC2 shows how desperate they are for sponsors, and this desperation is manifesting itself in these rumors of huge changes in the near future. Whatever companies they are talking with obviously are extremely apprehensive about sponsoring BW and are possibly more inclined to sponsor SC2.
Basically, I think this entire ordeal is just a dramatic example of how BW's sponsor-based business model in Korea is failing. The game obviously is still very popular to play and watch, but the scene does not make money directly off of those numbers. Instead, the scene makes money off of sponsors who hope to make money off of the game's popularity. But with match fixing and IP rights eroding the scene's legitimacy and other games like LoL and MMOs (but ironically not SC2) eroding the scene's viewer base, the sponsors have backed off even with a big audience that still exists to advertise to. No matter how great the games are and how many fans still line up to watch those games, professional BW just can't function without sponsor money.
KeSPA is trying to turn all this around with some crazy changes, but who knows what else they might try if their SC2 venture completely bombs.
The article was referring to osl having difficulty finding sponsors for it's starleague . Kespa league is already sanctioned by big companies for each team . I find it difficult for kespa to be saying it has trouble finding sponsors when I still see KT/SKT still sponsoring their teams .
That's true, although considering how huge OSL should be in the scene now that MSL is dead, I think it's a big deal that KeSPA is having trouble finding sponsors for the premier professional BW individual league.
Plus, I'm not sure if Proleague can continue to be sponsored by a KeSPA company's subsidiary like SK Planet. I think It needs a completely external sponsor like Shinhan rather than a pseudo-sponsor like SK Planet. Plus, Team 8 still being unsponsored doesn't look too great, although I did hear that the coach mention in a recent interview that there is a possible sponsor in the works.
But I'm not very comfortable with the state of the scene considering that SK Planet is a subsidiary of SK Telecom and Jin Air is a subsidiary of Korean Air.
On April 16 2012 17:43 Shrewmy wrote: Can we just cut the elitism out? I've been watching BW for a good five or so years, and yes it's a better game, yes it's harder to play and yes it's more fun to watch. But SC2 is also pretty good to watch, not to mention it's not even got an expansion out to add more flexibility to each race.
How many of you think that vanilla SC would be fun to watch with how awfully unbalanced the multiplayer was?
And how long did you wait for BW? SC vanilla was only five or so months episode thats why no one is talking about it, SC in 3 years changed from vanilla to BW and last patch came out already sealing the deal of balance while SC2 after 2 years has barely functioning chat channels. Do you like that comparison?
The length between release is irrelevant. The fact is you're judging two games, one of which has had 10 or so years to develop. Do you honestly think you could look at a pro BW game in 2002 and 2012 and say they were exactly the same?
Then you go on about chat channels, which is completely irrelevant to the actual gameplay, why even bring that up? Do you even realise how clunky SC's chat channels were on release? A max of 40 players? Spam bots? It's still better than SC2's but it's completely pointless to argue about battle.net when it has no effect on the actual gameplay. The fact is that Brood War introduced new units and balance changes that flipped everything around and allowed it to develop, it's absolutely unfair to compare it to a game that hasn't had any major unit/race changes.
On April 16 2012 17:47 Archvil3 wrote: Too soon, should not be happening yet.
Shouldn't be happening ever. KeSPA getting into SC2 is probably inevitable, but actively killing of BW entirely would be an incredibly stupid decision. Even if they end up running it at a loss or shrinking it to save money, BW is Korean e-sports.
This x100
Im pro SC2 evolving against BW dying, those 2 entities should be separated from each other as far away as possible. BW has almost nothing to do with SC2 and vice versa, these games are totally different at competetive level, getting them into 1 basket is really risky for the scene.
On April 16 2012 17:47 Archvil3 wrote: Too soon, should not be happening yet.
BW isKorean e-sports.
Fixed. The foreign scene is pathetic. It's not build on anything more than greed and the shoulders of korean BW. It can't last like that. Supporting e-sports is killing off sc2. If sc2 didn't have expansions per-emptively announced, I would bet it would already be dying off.
I always wondered why BW fans can shittalk SC2 without the same punishement as vica versa. =BW fans provoke SC2 fans with silly comments untill SC2 fans try to defend their game... some of them may post stupid and offensive stuff, and most of them get warned/banned for a reason (!). But it shouldnt be allowed to provoke each other by attacking the other ones favourite game. Especially comments like "SC2 guys shouldnt be allowed to post in this threads". =SC2 fans provoke BW fans with silly comments. SC2 fan gets warned.
I HAVE A DREAM!
(Thats just my observation, i may just feel like that... meh)
It's not like we haven't had any time to prepare for this.. It still feels wrong although BW hasn't been the same after the savoir incident but still it is one of the most enjoyable RTS title out there (at least for me).
When the switch happens I hope the A players will crush all of SC2 so hard that Blizzard needs to adapt their game to the higher skill that emerged in competitive gaming. Most likely that won't happen. And I don't even know if that would be a step in the right direction..
I guess we just need time. Time to get used to fact that we won't see any major broodwar tourneys anymore, some of our beloved progamers will retire and watching SC2.
I witnessed the rise and fall of WC3 and fortunately discovered Broodwar what became my new spectator obsession. When SC2 beta came I played the shit out of it. But it just wasnt the same. Even with all the tournaments emerging (watching 24/7 cups/tourneys was mindblowing), the rapid growing community I felt like something was missing. The thrill bw gave me when I watched e.g. JD vs Stork. The tears, the pain I felt when game was decided. Like it wasn't just a game but a battle between gods and you were allowed to watch the clash of titans..
And that's what probably will take time to occur in SC2. Sure, I definitely exaggerated in your eyes. But that's how I feel when I watch a really good match of broodwar. That's why I don't get tired of watching games 20-30 times, because they're timeless for me. Just like the game. I don't care if the graphics are dated or the mechanics are not 2012-like. Why do people still play Zelda/Mario/Doom/Keen/Megaman and don't get tired of it? Nostalgia. And I love it.
Even if bw will disappear I'm confident that if I want to play some 1x1s there will be some like-minded people out there. And if Iccup dies there will be a place for me to get crushed on fish. And as long VioleTAK, nevake, SayleBW,... still upload/commentate games I won't be too sad.
So long BW. Thanks for the awesome time you gave me and maybe will give me in future.
On April 16 2012 17:47 Archvil3 wrote: Too soon, should not be happening yet.
A full transition should not be considered before HoTS and even then it depends on how much Blizzard manages to improve the game. Right now BW is just so much better then SC2.
(words from an SC2 fan that never knew of TL or BW as an esport untill late SC2 beta)
Considering that the Beta should start relatively soon this might be the PERFECT time to switch. BW pros could get used to the overall game untill the beta starts so they are relatively at the skill level of the WoL players and then start practicing the HoTS beta at the same time as the WoL players.
I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
On April 16 2012 17:43 Shrewmy wrote: Can we just cut the elitism out? I've been watching BW for a good five or so years, and yes it's a better game, yes it's harder to play and yes it's more fun to watch. But SC2 is also pretty good to watch, not to mention it's not even got an expansion out to add more flexibility to each race.
How many of you think that vanilla SC would be fun to watch with how awfully unbalanced the multiplayer was?
And how long did you wait for BW? SC vanilla was only five or so months episode thats why no one is talking about it, SC in 3 years changed from vanilla to BW and last patch came out already sealing the deal of balance while SC2 after 2 years has barely functioning chat channels. Do you like that comparison?
The length between release is irrelevant. The fact is you're judging two games, one of which has had 10 or so years to develop. Do you honestly think you could look at a pro BW game in 2002 and 2012 and say they were exactly the same?
Then you go on about chat channels, which is completely irrelevant to the actual gameplay, why even bring that up? Do you even realise how clunky SC's chat channels were on release? A max of 40 players? Spam bots? It's still better than SC2's but it's completely pointless to argue about battle.net when it has no effect on the actual gameplay. The fact is that Brood War introduced new units and balance changes that flipped everything around and allowed it to develop, it's absolutely unfair to compare it to a game that hasn't had any major unit/race changes.
No i took the jab at Blizzards marketing, because everyone defends business decisions here instead caring for better product. There was no need for SC2 to take this stupid route, SC2 could be BW from the start but we are taking long route to maximize Blizzard profit not our.
I dont care how well Blizzard will fare but i care about product quality, after 12 years of BW experience you could say Blizzard could skip this circus. But every SC2 passionate fan is content with being stolen, i dont want to buy second account so i could ladder off race i dont want to see OH SNAP Browder face when Parting and MKP lags out. This is a circus not "Greatest Esports title incoming" but because of those "passionate" fans Blizzard will never reconsider it, because apparently its FINE.
Im against unfinished products being titled "best ESPORTS", im for people who can say the truth, Starcraft vanilla and BW were pioneers, it was hard to expect BW having whole service while even simple internet streaming didnt even exist at that time, because of how easy internet media become SC2 rips the benefits of people's low expectations, its easy money for now. I dont care about celebrities i want no letency play for professional play so professional players can play without a burden of technical limitations, because its only step for true ESPORT, not having lan is shame, but people here are way moer content with defending business decisions over ESPORTS.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
No i took the jab at Blizzards marketing, because everyone defends business decisions here instead caring for better product. There was no need for SC2 to take this stupid route, SC2 could be BW from the start but we are taking long route to maximize Blizzard profit not our.
I dont care how well Blizzard will fare but i care about product quality, after 12 years of BW experience you could say Blizzard could skip this circus. But every SC2 passionate fan is content with being stolen, i dont want to buy second account so i could ladder off race i dont want to see OH SNAP Browder face when Parting and MKP lags out. This is a circus not "Greatest Esports title incoming" but because of those "passionate" fans Blizzard will never reconsider it, because apparently its FINE.
Im against unfinished products being titled "best ESPORTS", im for people who can say the truth, Starcraft vanilla and BW were pioneers, it was hard to expect BW having whole service while even simple internet streaming didnt even exist at that time, because of how easy internet media become SC2 rips the benefits of people's low expectations, its easy money for now. I dont care about celebrities i want no letency play for professional play so professional players can play without a burden of technical limitations, because its only step for true ESPORT, not having lan is shame, but people here are way moer content with defending business decisions over ESPORTS.
I agree I find it ridiculous that people are hyping SC2 as the best 'esport' ever, I find the term just plain stupid. And that Blizzard's handling of things such as LAN is stupid, but given what KeSPA did you can at least see their reasoning for wanting to keep control of the scene.
My issue is that people are hating on SC2 just because they simplified mechanics purely because it wouldn't make sense from a technological standpoint to only limit hotkeys to 12 units, or not have worker rallies. Things like that will not make the game suddenly terrible. That people who prefer SC2 over Brood War are plebians or 12 year olds or something insane like that.
I absolutely hate the elitist attitude that people have over two video games, I was under the impression that people played these things for fun first and foremost.
Cmon dudes It's not about which game is better but which game is more commercially appealing. You cant deny that OGN struggling to find sponsors is a very bad sign, or when SKT's subsidiary had to jump in to save Proleague. Besides, Im not worry about how "little" sc2 fan base currently is. KeSPA, with a decade doing this business, will definitely fare better than GOM (see WCG). With BW in my heart, I'd rather be thankful that it lives for another season, whatever the format is.
SC2 has been out for less than 2 years, and as much as I love BW I'm pretty it wasn't so exciting to watch when it first came out. Hell in 10 years people will have the same conversation about SC2 when its dying because of SC3.
Personally, I'd rather have a clean break than all this 2 games at the same time nonsense. Push back PL season 2 by a month or so to give BW teams time to practice, then start with SC2 if that's what you want, but like someone said earlier in the thread, I think 50% BW and 50% SC2 will just result in a lower quality of games compared to 100% BW or 100% SC2. IMO this seems like a done deal, and I don't think the powers that be care about any fan opinion/outrage that will occur, so why not just go for SC2 and consequences be damned? Related to that, I hope an official announcement comes out soon instead of all these hinting articles. Everyone has heard these rumors already, why not make things official either way instead of just stirring up the fans again and again.
Edit: Re-read the 1st post, and these rumors are for next year PL, not next season? Hmmm.
That is the way of life and evolution... Humans have always been afraid of change because it comes with the feeling to lose something. I am really sad that BW is going to end, but I also try to not forget that there are new chances and challenges in the future with SC2. I hope the history of SC2 will be well written in the end.
Time to change... time to accept the challenge! I am in the boat. For eSports!
imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
Everybody complains that BW is dying and SC2 is bad comapre. Who remembers things before BW, the original starcraft? And what was first few years of BW? How can you be sure SC2 won't be near the same 5 years down the road? And there is 1000 times more people watching SC2 now as much as BW.
Let's compare SC to soccer. If you look 50 years back(it is not 10 as SC, I know) the game was brilliant at the time. But the game got faster, better and more for fans. Same with SC2. You can not really compare those 2 just because they have the same name.
SC2 gives opportunity for people to break out and follow their dream they could not in BW. Now they can make living playing SC2, so it is better for EVERYONE. I just hope blizzard will see what made BW great and put that into SC2. THAT MEANS CARRIERS!
Wait, I was fine with this until they said that they alternate SETS? As in, it will be an alternating bo7? That won't work well imo. Just make it two different bo7s. It won't work well this way >.>
On April 16 2012 18:19 regizer239 wrote: SC2 has been out for less than 2 years, and as much as I love BW I'm pretty it wasn't so exciting to watch when it first came out. Hell in 10 years people will have the same conversation about SC2 when its dying because of SC3.
This for gods sake this. From what I've seen the BW guys were very very quick to judge. I"m not saying they didn't put in time to try and learn the game but rather they're comparing it to the game that has developed out of 10 years of the best rts minds working on strategy's and perfecting their play. It's just not fair to the new game.
No i took the jab at Blizzards marketing, because everyone defends business decisions here instead caring for better product. There was no need for SC2 to take this stupid route, SC2 could be BW from the start but we are taking long route to maximize Blizzard profit not our.
I dont care how well Blizzard will fare but i care about product quality, after 12 years of BW experience you could say Blizzard could skip this circus. But every SC2 passionate fan is content with being stolen, i dont want to buy second account so i could ladder off race i dont want to see OH SNAP Browder face when Parting and MKP lags out. This is a circus not "Greatest Esports title incoming" but because of those "passionate" fans Blizzard will never reconsider it, because apparently its FINE.
Im against unfinished products being titled "best ESPORTS", im for people who can say the truth, Starcraft vanilla and BW were pioneers, it was hard to expect BW having whole service while even simple internet streaming didnt even exist at that time, because of how easy internet media become SC2 rips the benefits of people's low expectations, its easy money for now. I dont care about celebrities i want no letency play for professional play so professional players can play without a burden of technical limitations, because its only step for true ESPORT, not having lan is shame, but people here are way moer content with defending business decisions over ESPORTS.
I agree I find it ridiculous that people are hyping SC2 as the best 'esport' ever, I find the term just plain stupid. And that Blizzard's handling of things such as LAN is stupid, but given what KeSPA did you can at least see their reasoning for wanting to keep control of the scene.
My issue is that people are hating on SC2 just because they simplified mechanics purely because it wouldn't make sense from a technological standpoint to only limit hotkeys to 12 units, or not have worker rallies. Things like that will not make the game suddenly terrible. That people who prefer SC2 over Brood War are plebians or 12 year olds or something insane like that.
I absolutely hate the elitist attitude that people have over two video games, I was under the impression that people played these things for fun first and foremost.
Yes, im neither BW elitist or SC2, i stand in between and i would hate to see it merge. SC2 fans dont understand the aspect of fun in BW and BW dont see the aspect of fun in SC2. Its pretty simple those games are totally different even if on the first glance you can see many similiarities.
So i can understand BW people who dont want to support SC2, i myself would not really love JD playing SC2, i mean i have some curiosity, name it "how TBLS would fare in SC2 envinornment" but im pretty sure after 2 months i would be unhappy because i would know that i will never ever see JD mutas or Bisu shuttle guerilla play to give example.
BW-->SC2 seems like a great business decision for western E-sports world but poor for Korean E-sports, "we" as selfish side(i target mostly younger generation, and SC2 only fans) on this conflict want E-sport to be global even at expense of Korean esports. Its tricky situation but Blizzard is not making it any easier, in fact they are making it even harder because its hard to find BW qualities in SC2, there were many really good posts on TL describing differences, some people who wrote it swallowed it and continued their careers, same way as i would change my job just to get money, so i understand it perfectly from this point of view.
SC2 was made in a way that its really hard to transition from BW only into SC2, thats why im really worried that if SC2 flops the whole Korean esports will flop and global esports will follow it. Its serious risk, and blizzard is here at fault, they risked it by not including LAN(prioritizing business over quality), basically whole scene integrity is in their hands now. Im still waiting for some developement decison based on GSTL scandal (and others). I dont really see OSL ever airing SC2 without LAN, because its ridiculous to even think if someone lags out in front of few million viewers(hypothetically if SC2 will ever get comparable viewers to BW eh...).
I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
On April 16 2012 18:19 regizer239 wrote: SC2 has been out for less than 2 years, and as much as I love BW I'm pretty it wasn't so exciting to watch when it first came out. Hell in 10 years people will have the same conversation about SC2 when its dying because of SC3.
This for gods sake this. From what I've seen the BW guys were very very quick to judge. I"m not saying they didn't put in time to try and learn the game but rather they're comparing it to the game that has developed out of 10 years of the best rts minds working on strategy's and perfecting their play. It's just not fair to the new game.
If SC2 is the best spectator RTS to watch 10 years from now, then I'll watch it then. I hold now grudges against it.
Until it IS better, though, why does it need to REPLACE what is better RIGHT NOW? How does my potential enjoyment of SC2 games played 10 years from now relate to games being currently boring?
I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
I also agree 50/50 is a terrible solution, but i really like the idea of only BW pros fighting each other in SC2 for some time. Maybe we'll see a slightly different approach to certain situations and matchups. Hopefully fans will support it!
(Yes i'm a SC2 fan, please don't cruzify me. BW is the most awesome RTS ever, but all good things come to an end)
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
You remind me of the characters in movies who wants to blow up the world because someone they loved has died. lol, sorry but I thought it was funny base on how you word it.
On April 16 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote: imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
thats the problem with the whole esport spiel. you cant continue to profess esports when the developer of the game has a vicegrip on your testicles.
News regarding next year's pro league just came out, To quickly summerise :
"Possibility of complete translation to sc2 from next year's new proleague." "For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW." "All pros have started practising SC2 since the end of last season and Pros who shows good play from both games will gain more chance of playing" "Pro teams made clear that they won't recruit any current SC2 players for 1 year to give BW Pros chance to adapt at this new game." "But it is expected that lot of players will still retire once this transition takes place."
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
On April 16 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote: imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
i gladly watch terrible foreign bw play because it's generally a lot more entertaining than ro32 GSL code s.
News regarding next year's pro league just came out, To quickly summerise :
"Possibility of complete translation to sc2 from next year's new proleague." "For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW." "All pros have started practising SC2 since the end of last season and Pros who shows good play from both games will gain more chance of playing" "Pro teams made clear that they won't recruit any current SC2 players for 1 year to give BW Pros chance to adapt at this new game." "But it is expected that lot of players will still retire once this transition takes place."
News regarding next year's pro league just came out, To quickly summerise :
"Possibility of complete translation to sc2 from next year's new proleague." "For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW." "All pros have started practising SC2 since the end of last season and Pros who shows good play from both games will gain more chance of playing" "Pro teams made clear that they won't recruit any current SC2 players for 1 year to give BW Pros chance to adapt at this new game." "But it is expected that lot of players will still retire once this transition takes place."
On April 16 2012 17:36 whatusername wrote: Sweet! Is anyone else excited for Flash microing BLUE FLAME HELLIONS, and firing off CONCUSSIVE SHELLS? Jaedong rushing unique unit combos like ROACHES and HYDRALISKS? or even Bisu pulling off some insane COLOSSUS moves? man I can't wait for these BW players to switch to SC2, the next step in competitive RTS gaming! finally, a game where people won't have to rely on mechanics and where strategy can truly shine. EG Jaedong and SK Flash anyone?
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Stop being overly dramatic, did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
On April 16 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote: imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
Like... all the time? Nearly every week of my bw mates will say hey I got this replay of scan wanna see? And he hosts it and 5 people join and we all watch and laugh. I would do that in SC2 as well except oh wait... we can't fucking host replays.
Except we don't say they are bad, we think they are really good still, because A+ iccup players are still 10x better than most GM players. How do I know this, Leenock was one.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
Because it is not a sport. Ahh fuck it, if you want to think its a sport then go ahead, can't believe I am wasting my time here arguing to people who think I am insecure when they call a game "e-sports" instead of having the balls to call themselves "professional-games."
I'm going to use the excuse that Mind is slumping/playing horrendously because he's practicing SC2. It's my only source of consolation at this point.
The news that the BW Pros are practicing SC2 is kind of disappointing to hear because it implies that the OSL games coming up won't be as potentially good simply because of the fact that the pros are practicing two games at once now as opposed to one. Oh well, hopefully that's not the case.
On April 16 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote: imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
Like... all the time? Nearly every week of my bw mates will say hey I got this replay of scan wanna see? And he hosts it and 5 people join and we all watch and laugh. I would do that in SC2 as well except oh wait... we can't fucking host replays.
Except we don't say they are bad, we think they are really good still, because A+ iccup players are still 10x better than GM players. How do I know this, Leenock was one.
Not to mention awesome stuf like ISL and TGC! Oh noes, bad players, better not watch. It's ten times more fun than watching someone like Idra stream.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading. Also, while I *am* clearly being dramatic in this post, do you really think it is reasonable to accuse me of being dramatic in the previous one at the exact moment that you are wholly incapable of refuting any of my claims.
On April 16 2012 19:01 Apex wrote: I'm going to use the excuse that Mind is slumping/playing horrendously because he's practicing SC2. It's my only source of consolation at this point.
The news that the BW Pros are practicing SC2 is kind of disappointing to hear because it implies that the OSL games coming up won't be as potentially good simply because of the fact that the pros are practicing two games at once now as opposed to one. Oh well, hopefully that's not the case.
if they practice two games. NOT WAY TO HIYA LOSS THIS TIME !!!!!!!!
On April 16 2012 19:02 OrchidThief wrote: "For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW."
Seems really awkward. "We'll play alternating quake live and quake3, maybe throw in some halo".
Yeah... I couldn't figure out that line. Is it like two teams will play aganist each other and the scores would add up? Or are the scores seperated. Like if SKT wins bw and kt wins sc2 would it be 1:1? or different scores
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
I will always call it eSports! I am a "professional" chess player and can not accept, why it is not declared as a sport too, which is basically the same issue... Have you ever played a 6 hour tournament match? Man I tell you this is so freaking exhausting... same goes for SC2.
But in fact "Sports" is only a word which exists in different languages. And languages are out there to be interpreted otherwise there would not be any discussion on anything^^ So please accept my definition of Sports and I will accept your view on the topic
When exactly will this mixed proleague start? Because I want to watch. I first want to see, there's like a 1% chance this brings me back into watching games.
On April 16 2012 19:01 Apex wrote: I'm going to use the excuse that Mind is slumping/playing horrendously because he's practicing SC2. It's my only source of consolation at this point.
The news that the BW Pros are practicing SC2 is kind of disappointing to hear because it implies that the OSL games coming up won't be as potentially good simply because of the fact that the pros are practicing two games at once now as opposed to one. Oh well, hopefully that's not the case.
if they practice two games. NOT WAY TO HIYA LOSS THIS TIME !!!!!!!!
OH SHIT, YOU HAVE A POINT. HIYA HAS A BIGGER CHANCE THAN I THOUGHT. GOGO MAGIKARP, NOW IS THE CHANCE FOR EVOLUTION.
On April 16 2012 18:19 regizer239 wrote: SC2 has been out for less than 2 years, and as much as I love BW I'm pretty it wasn't so exciting to watch when it first came out. Hell in 10 years people will have the same conversation about SC2 when its dying because of SC3.
This for gods sake this. From what I've seen the BW guys were very very quick to judge. I"m not saying they didn't put in time to try and learn the game but rather they're comparing it to the game that has developed out of 10 years of the best rts minds working on strategy's and perfecting their play. It's just not fair to the new game.
If SC2 is the best spectator RTS to watch 10 years from now, then I'll watch it then. I hold now grudges against it.
Until it IS better, though, why does it need to REPLACE what is better RIGHT NOW? How does my potential enjoyment of SC2 games played 10 years from now relate to games being currently boring?
Because no matter how much you or I like the game there's just more money in starcraft 2 for sponsors and tournaments from what it seems. There just seems to be a much larger foreign presence for sc2 than BW and it seems to be dragging bw down.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I think you need to live in korea and understand what happens when you mention esports. People will roll their eyes at you. I guarantee. Maybe in america there are communities, but people forget, outside communities, people aren't as accepting
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
Because it is not a sport. Ahh fuck it, if you want to think its a sport then go ahead, can't believe I am wasting my time here arguing to people who think I am insecure when they call a game "e-sports" instead of having the balls to call themselves "professional-games."
If golf, racing and poker are considered sports you don't think that video games can be considered sports? Also, tons of people call themselves professional gamers, not sure where you are getting the impression that it is some sort of taboo phrase.
On April 16 2012 15:14 Keone wrote: To all you "meh, bound to happen"-types... f* you. BW has been such a huge part of my life, I can't just be apathetic to this.
If they don't keep BW going, the term "ESPORTS" is fundamentally flawed and will never truly exist. You don't just "scrap" a true sport. True sports have one thing in common: great history. Proleague is a part of that enormous and invaluable history that belongs to gaming, and if it trashes BW, then we no longer have esports.
I completely agree! Let me spell if out completely Keone, FUCK YOU!
Ah, this is so horrible. They are sacrificing the only true esports in the name of money. Although I love BW and SC2, I hate the fact that they are willing to throw the better game under the bus just so the other game could have a bigger chunk of the esports market and gain more mileage and money. Worst thing to do really.
On April 16 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote: imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
Like... all the time? Nearly every week of my bw mates will say hey I got this replay of scan wanna see? And he hosts it and 5 people join and we all watch and laugh. I would do that in SC2 as well except oh wait... we can't fucking host replays.
Except we don't say they are bad, we think they are really good still, because A+ iccup players are still 10x better than most GM players. How do I know this, Leenock was one.
Maybe i am missing them but i never heard about "BW Barcrafts". for example. (But yea i would really like this feature on any multiplayer focused game)
and you are comparing A+ iccup with SC2 Grandmaster? You don´t really understand the sc2 laddersystem or?
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
Because it is not a sport. Ahh fuck it, if you want to think its a sport then go ahead, can't believe I am wasting my time here arguing to people who think I am insecure when they call a game "e-sports" instead of having the balls to call themselves "professional-games."
If golf, racing and poker are considered sports you don't think that video games can be considered sports? Also, tons of people call themselves professional gamers, not sure where you are getting the impression that it is some sort of taboo phrase.
The funny thing is, people are defending the name "e-sports" because its sounds mainstream. Tell me, for what other reason would people want to call themselves a sport other then to be accepted? Give me one good reason, nothing dramatic, realistic and straight to the point. If it makes sense, I will apologise.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
Because it is not a sport. Ahh fuck it, if you want to think its a sport then go ahead, can't believe I am wasting my time here arguing to people who think I am insecure when they call a game "e-sports" instead of having the balls to call themselves "professional-games."
If golf, racing and poker are considered sports you don't think that video games can be considered sports? Also, tons of people call themselves professional gamers, not sure where you are getting the impression that it is some sort of taboo phrase.
The funny thing is, people are defending the name "e-sports" because its sounds mainstream. Tell me, for what other reason would people want to call themselves a sport other then to be accepted? Give me one good reason, nothing dramatic, realistic and straight to the point. If it makes sense, I will apologise.
E-sports rolls off the tongue better than professional video games.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I will just shut up.
At the exact moment that you have explained why gamers are shunned in certain circles you have failed to account for why, in other circles, they are not shunned. Again, my point is that, structurally and culturally, these games fulfill a role which is in no way incorrectly represented by calling them eSports. Further, why is it surprising that the savior incident caused a negative stigma? The issue is that just because something has been negatively stigmatized at one point or another does not necessarily translate into it not... being in some sense, a sport. The problem here is that, at the core of all your posts, is a belief that the term eSports is only employed as a technique of self validation. The reason this is flawed is that, for many of us, there is no validation that needs to take place. The games do not need to "prove themselves" in order to do what they do. All that I did in my first post was highlight the ways in which the nature of the game itself, the way it is played out, and the way it is presented to audiences is, for all intents and purposes, indicative of sports of the second modernity.
To not call it a sport is tantamount to telling people that "google" can't be used as a verb. So if someone said, "Just google it," you would need to take 10 minutes out of your day to explain to them that what they are trying to say is, "Just access the internet through a terminal, proceed to any of a number of search engines like www.google.com and perform a search function using the relevant key words." Maybe you've got a point, but it's not one that actually performs any positive work.
Reading through this thread I'm so glad I don't visit the BW Forum very often because most of these people seem to be complete retards.
How diverse, interesting and deep were SC1 strategies 21 months after release? Also consider that an expansion had already come out. SC1 has now had FOURTEEN years to develop. But it's going nowhere fast. Brood War isn't going to become anywhere near as big internationally as SC2 already is.
Reverse the games. Had SC2 as we know it come out in 1998, we would have 2 expansions and fourteen years of maturity of game knowledge and strategy. Most of us as children would have grown up with it being the number one RTS. Do you think a new RTS, even one as good as SC1, would instantly be comparable to SC2's depth of gameplay?
Think about how underdeveloped BW strats were in 2000. That's where we are right now with SC2.
BW is going nowhere. SC2 has massive growth potential. You do the math.
On April 16 2012 18:31 USvBleakill wrote: imagine if sc2 would be 12 years old and bw the "new" one. We would have the same discussion. It´s in almost everything what have a "new" part/rule/something that the old guys defending their ground with shitstorms without any knowledge.
Do BW fans really cheer for the game? Or for the players? How many of you would watch games of some random bad bw semi pro´s? Would you say "yea the players are really really bad but BroodWar is sooooo awesome!!!!". I don´t think so.
And please stop blaming blizzard for wanting to make money. It´s a company not a war veterans helping union.
Like... all the time? Nearly every week of my bw mates will say hey I got this replay of scan wanna see? And he hosts it and 5 people join and we all watch and laugh. I would do that in SC2 as well except oh wait... we can't fucking host replays.
Except we don't say they are bad, we think they are really good still, because A+ iccup players are still 10x better than most GM players. How do I know this, Leenock was one.
Maybe i am missing them but i never heard about "BW Barcrafts". for example. (But yea i would really like this feature on any multiplayer focused game)
and you are comparing A+ iccup with SC2 Grandmaster? You don´t really understand the sc2 laddersystem or?
For A+, you need over 9000 ladder points. How many points to you need for GM?
too bad I started following BW constantly like from last summer, OSL quarter-finals I think. Before that just random epic games. And one more year and it is gone forever...
On April 16 2012 19:11 zazone wrote: heard Flash is playing SF2 in his free time, maybe it means he won't switch. The game isn't ready for God.
he sais he plays lol too.
And for the people who argue about A+ and GrandMaster level. White-Ra said in Husky's interview that getting A+ and keeping it is much harder than reach and stay in GM.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I think you need to live in korea and understand what happens when you mention esports. People will roll their eyes at you. I guarantee. Maybe in america there are communities, but people forget, outside communities, people aren't as accepting
What is wrong with every game that is played competitively being called an e-sport? Is BW the only true e-sport in your mind?
On April 16 2012 19:14 ne4aJIb wrote: too bad I started following BW constantly like from last summer, OSL quarter-finals I think. Before that just random epic games. And one more year and it is gone forever...
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
Because it is not a sport. Ahh fuck it, if you want to think its a sport then go ahead, can't believe I am wasting my time here arguing to people who think I am insecure when they call a game "e-sports" instead of having the balls to call themselves "professional-games."
If golf, racing and poker are considered sports you don't think that video games can be considered sports? Also, tons of people call themselves professional gamers, not sure where you are getting the impression that it is some sort of taboo phrase.
The funny thing is, people are defending the name "e-sports" because its sounds mainstream. Tell me, for what other reason would people want to call themselves a sport other then to be accepted? Give me one good reason, nothing dramatic, realistic and straight to the point. If it makes sense, I will apologise.
Because calling it a sport most accurately and efficiently conveys what it is. Should they instead call it "Nerds playing video games for basement dwelling audiences" or "fully clothed voyeuristc pornography" or... does it just make more sense to call it what it is?
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I will just shut up.
At the exact moment that you have explained why gamers are shunned in certain circles you have failed to account for why, in other circles, they are not shunned. Again, my point is that, structurally and culturally, these games fulfill a role which is in no way incorrectly represented by calling them eSports. Further, why is it surprising that the savior incident caused a negative stigma? The issue is that just because something has been negatively stigmatized at one point or another does not necessarily translate into it not... being in some sense, a sport. The problem here is that, at the core of all your posts, is a belief that the term eSports is only employed as a technique of self validation. The reason this is flawed is that, for many of us, there is no validation that needs to take place. The games do not need to "prove themselves" in order to do what they do. All that I did in my first post was highlight the ways in which the nature of the game itself, the way it is played out, and the way it is presented to audiences is, for all intents and purposes, indicative of sports of the second modernity.
To not call it a sport is tantamount to telling people that "google" can't be used as a verb. So if someone said, "Just google it," you would need to take 10 minutes out of your day to explain to them that what they are trying to say is, "Just access the internet through a terminal, proceed to any of a number of search engines like www.google.com and perform a search function using the relevant key words." Maybe you've got a point, but it's not one that actually performs any positive work.
lol, I see you don't get my point. Using flamboyant words won't make you right when you are wrong. You are trying too hard to be nonchalant about this naming thing because you know its the truth. E-sports sounds mainstream. Pro-games do not. I will leave this thread since you and I obviously don't see each others points. Your point is sc2 is a sport, my point is sc2 is a game. So I can see the difference of our situation in society. Have a nice day.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. And with a huge sponsor like LG sponsoring IM team? I am not surprised. Bw is having problems with sponsorships and if someone like LG is sponsoring a sc2 team instead of a bw team then its a sign that sc2 is the current hot "pro-gaming" game.
Seriously? How is e-sports trying to be something it's not? It's most certainly an electronic sport, if you are afraid of the term that's ok but don't try and project your insecurities onto everyone.
Because it is not a sport. Ahh fuck it, if you want to think its a sport then go ahead, can't believe I am wasting my time here arguing to people who think I am insecure when they call a game "e-sports" instead of having the balls to call themselves "professional-games."
If golf, racing and poker are considered sports you don't think that video games can be considered sports? Also, tons of people call themselves professional gamers, not sure where you are getting the impression that it is some sort of taboo phrase.
The funny thing is, people are defending the name "e-sports" because its sounds mainstream. Tell me, for what other reason would people want to call themselves a sport other then to be accepted? Give me one good reason, nothing dramatic, realistic and straight to the point. If it makes sense, I will apologise.
Because it is a game that is played competitively at a very high level for cash rewards? Why wouldn't it be called an e-sport?
Does it not fit this definition of sports? "SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:[1] have an element of competition be in no way harmful to any living creature not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football) not rely on any 'luck' element specifically designed in to the sport"
I hope this brings a new era of innovation to WoL(olo). It'd be great to see terrans trying openings other than hellions against zerg, etc. Maybe even see some robo-less Protoss late game? Here's to hoping.
Say what you will but I enjoyed the first few SC2 leagues a ton because players were just figuring out how to play and watching that growth was pretty entertaining. I still enjoy the leagues today with higher levels (and still growing) of play but it's going to be a treat to watch it all over again. Also I'm on the first flight out to the next MLG that brings Bisu over.
On the BW side yeah it's sad to see it end but I came to terms with that ages ago rather than acting delusional about how this is somehow going to rekindle foreign interest in BW, so I'm a little less distraught than I would have been if we didn't already get wind of this happening for a year now.
I've always imagined it must suck to have to feel bitter about this whole thing all the time, but since I'm lucky enough to actually enjoy SC2 my excitement kind of overrides the negative feelings. So yeah I'm watching this, both the BW and SC2 games, regardless of the level of play.
The reason the BW games are better to watch are because it is a much more developed game. For example look at football (soccer for you Americans) nowadays compared to era's gone by, the level that the players now are at is far far better as a result of the game being more figured out and everyone improving with time. We are going to see that with SC2 imo, if you look back when the game was first released you had technically bad games, and even now they are nowhere near what you would call mechanically 'good'. Give it time, the game will improve and so will the players. OT: Can't wait to see what happens with the switch, I know it is hard for you BW fanatics to take but I feel your pain, I was there when MLG swapped from Halo 2 to 3 and then from 3 to Reach, change hurts but you get used to it
On April 16 2012 19:12 CaptainCharisma wrote: Reading through this thread I'm so glad I don't visit the BW Forum very often because most of these people seem to be complete retards.
How diverse, interesting and deep were SC1 strategies 21 months after release? Also consider that an expansion had already come out. SC1 has now had FOURTEEN years to develop. But it's going nowhere fast. Brood War isn't going to become anywhere near as big internationally as SC2 already is.
Reverse the games. Had SC2 as we know it come out in 1998, we would have 2 expansions and fourteen years of maturity of game knowledge and strategy. Most of us as children would have grown up with it being the number one RTS. Do you think a new RTS, even one as good as SC1, would instantly be comparable to SC2's depth of gameplay?
Think about how underdeveloped BW strats were in 2000. That's where we are right now with SC2.
BW is going nowhere. SC2 has massive growth potential. You do the math.
That "give it time" argument has been used since forever but nothing has changed much.
Before competitive BW, people did not know how to play RTS games. We had no idea of what was micro, macro, multitasking, harassment etc. Even until 2005 most BW did not even have a proper natural base ! When SC2 was released, maps sucked because Blizz never knew how to make maps, but at least they had naturals, thirds and there were a lot of foundations brought by BW. We didn't even have replays ! I'm not even talking about VODs or Liquipedia or anything that helped develop the strategies and build orders exponentially quickly.
Nowadays we know how to play RTS properly, hell, most SC2 pros are BW or W3 ex-pros, why would we need to wait that long for SC2 to be good ?
edit : oh he was banned while I was replying. <3 TL Mods
Oh also my potentially last post in this thread but also keep in mind that the OP also states that "it is expected that lot of players will still retire once this transition takes place."
With this statement, it's not necessarily even 100% confirmed that the top-tier players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong/Stork, etc. will even move on to SC2 but instead, choose to retire (maybe to go back to school?).
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I will just shut up.
At the exact moment that you have explained why gamers are shunned in certain circles you have failed to account for why, in other circles, they are not shunned. Again, my point is that, structurally and culturally, these games fulfill a role which is in no way incorrectly represented by calling them eSports. Further, why is it surprising that the savior incident caused a negative stigma? The issue is that just because something has been negatively stigmatized at one point or another does not necessarily translate into it not... being in some sense, a sport. The problem here is that, at the core of all your posts, is a belief that the term eSports is only employed as a technique of self validation. The reason this is flawed is that, for many of us, there is no validation that needs to take place. The games do not need to "prove themselves" in order to do what they do. All that I did in my first post was highlight the ways in which the nature of the game itself, the way it is played out, and the way it is presented to audiences is, for all intents and purposes, indicative of sports of the second modernity.
To not call it a sport is tantamount to telling people that "google" can't be used as a verb. So if someone said, "Just google it," you would need to take 10 minutes out of your day to explain to them that what they are trying to say is, "Just access the internet through a terminal, proceed to any of a number of search engines like www.google.com and perform a search function using the relevant key words." Maybe you've got a point, but it's not one that actually performs any positive work.
lol, I see you don't get my point. Using flamboyant words won't make you right when you are wrong. You are trying too hard to be nonchalant about this naming thing because you know its the truth. E-sports sounds mainstream. Pro-games do not. I will leave this thread since you and I obviously don't see each others points. Your point is sc2 is a sport, my point is sc2 is a game. So I can see the difference of our situation in society. Have a nice day.
You know that baseball is a game right? Basketball too and soccer and hockey, every single damn sport is a game. You're creating some obscure false dichotomy.
The articles also mention that many progamers might just choose to retire rather than play SC2. It also happened (to a smaller extent) when Proleague got rid of 2v2 back in 2008.
So half of proleague will consist of 2010/early 2011 quality SC2? >_<
I'll still watch, but I'm not really sure how pretty it will be.
I think it is smart of them to transition like this though if they are going to transition. Better to not jump straight into a whole new game. This way fans will have a much easier time adjusting to SC2.
I might just quit watching if this happens. Sure I'll pop on TL to check on what happens now and then but if it comes down to a full switch then I'd just move on.
I truly hope that it does not happen...how sad that better graphics will overshadow a legendary game that stood the test of time.
On April 16 2012 19:36 RavenLoud wrote: I might just quit watching if this happens. Sure I'll pop on TL to check on what happens now and then but if it comes down to a full switch then I'd just move on.
I truly hope that it does not happen...how sad that better graphics will overshadow a legendary game that stood the test of time.
Yeah I doubt I'll be as interested, either. I'll probably just check the results on TL from time to time and that's about it.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I think you need to live in korea and understand what happens when you mention esports. People will roll their eyes at you. I guarantee. Maybe in america there are communities, but people forget, outside communities, people aren't as accepting
What is wrong with every game that is played competitively being called an e-sport? Is BW the only true e-sport in your mind?
well he said he lives in Korea, and believe it or not, broodwar there is really an iconic thing back then.. it's like, even their grandmother knows broodwar.. as a matter of fact, all my korean teachers who taught me before (at least 7) knows starcraft, and 2 even played them..
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
yea, i always find it weird that people think BW gamers MUST transit only and only to SC2.. there are other games right?
edit: worse of all, why alternate games? it just doesnt make sense
On April 16 2012 19:36 RavenLoud wrote: I might just quit watching if this happens. Sure I'll pop on TL to check on what happens now and then but if it comes down to a full switch then I'd just move on.
I truly hope that it does not happen...how sad that better graphics will overshadow a legendary game that stood the test of time.
The only good thing that might happen is SC2 fans watching some BW and actually understanding how good the game is, especially considering that the quality of games between the two are going to be as different as night and day.
But I agree. All this stuff is really just....eh. I'm already so inactive on TL and just hang around one thread these days.
On April 16 2012 19:32 LytR wrote: Been waiting for this to be officially announced for a while now, this is going to be amazing!
Nothing's been announced. It's a rumor, and an excuse for yet another BW vs SC2 thread
It's far past the rumor stage at this point. We've had coaches and even players pretty much confirming they're practicing SC2 seriously alongside BW for some time now. Not to mention rumors are sort of how BW news has always worked anyway. I mean, look at all the other "rumors" we had from the BW scene. Rumors about teams disbanding, rumors about MBC Game closing shop, rumors about Team 8 forming, rumors about PL being split into two seasons, etc etc etc... Sometimes I feel that BW officials purposely leak these "rumors" to gauge community reaction, or better yet let all the fans get out their raging way before the "official" announcements so there's not as strong of a reaction when the time does come.
The worst part still is mixed game proleague. Why not just partner up with a current SC2 team and the tagteam with most points advance to the playoffs, but don't fucking mix sets...
I'm incredibly sad, yet excited, and because of that, sad again, now.
Incredibly sad because BW is slowly dying no matter what happens. It was and is THE game that created the terms "Pro Gaming" and "progamer" and actually put meaning behind them. Yeah I know Quake has an insanely high skill cap too, but it never got this popular that parents and middle aged people come and watch the games live.
I'm excited because even if I know the game is and the pro BW scene will cease to exist in one or two years at max, the players who made the game what it is now, from a rough unpolished stone to a shiny diamond, will probably move on to SC2. This will probably breath some life in the korean SC2 scene aswell.
But I'm sad again, because the passion for competetive pro gaming has been revived in the "west" too, so everything is given to make history again, and create a worthy sequel for BW that'll last for another 10 years. But this time, Blizzard doesn't seem to want this. It's been talked to death already, but SC2 isn't suited for pro gaming at all. The design philosophy, the infrastructure, everything is so flawed it's not even funny.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
yea, i always find it weird that people think BW gamers MUST transit only and only to SC2.. there are other games right?
RTS pros will play new RTS games. A-RTS pros will play new A-RTS games (or moba if you want to call it that). FPS pros will play new FPS games.
This is how esports will continue to develop imo. As long as games are competitive and have a strong interest people will transfer between them, it's the genre that will define things.
On April 16 2012 15:28 newvsoldschool wrote: Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
Yet it is far from reached. And ForGG proved that ex-BW Champs are not necessarily better than the "average" SCII players.
The rotational system is crap though. As is the lack of interaction with GOMTV.
Stop. No. Get out of here. ForGG arguments are shit.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I think you need to live in korea and understand what happens when you mention esports. People will roll their eyes at you. I guarantee. Maybe in america there are communities, but people forget, outside communities, people aren't as accepting
What is wrong with every game that is played competitively being called an e-sport? Is BW the only true e-sport in your mind?
well he said he lives in Korea, and believe it or not, broodwar there is really an iconic thing back then.. it's like, even their grandmother knows broodwar.. as a matter of fact, all my korean teachers who taught me before (at least 7) knows starcraft, and 2 even played them..
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
yea, i always find it weird that people think BW gamers MUST transit only and only to SC2.. there are other games right?
Let's be honest here, BW and SC2 are two pretty different games. However, the overarching idea behind it remains pretty much the same. 1v1, control your army and manage your economy, make decisions based on information you have and assumptions based on information you dont and make decisions accordingly, and if you do that better then your opponent you win the game.
Because the concept behind both of these games are pretty similar to transition from one into the other would go a lot smoother as well. LoL and other dota-esque games are massively different compared to starcraft, only a handful of maps, most of which have the same layouts, team play as opposed to 1v1 and only one unit to control. Starcraft and LoL are worlds apart.
So when people say that when bw ceases to exist and all the pro's will either switch to sc2 or retire, i don't think they miss the target by a whole lot.
Better SC2 than LoL. Because BW's popularity is dieing, I only see two outcomes:
1) Transition to SC2 and watch many of our favorite BW players continue their career in SC2
2) Watch LoL take over the e-sports scene and sponsors and watch ALL our favorite BW players retire.
SC2 is the lone holdout in the RTS genre. It's a MOBA world now.
I enjoy watching July, Boxer, Nada, ForGG, etc, continue their career in SC2. Without SC2, all the ex-BW players playing SC2 now would have retired and we would be watching LoL in the near future.
Say NO to LoL and MOBAs. I disagree with many here that would rather see our favorite BW players retiring than having the option to watch them continue their careers in SC2 - I get the feeling that many in this thread would not mind if LoL takes over the e-sports scene.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
On April 16 2012 19:19 paradoxOO9 wrote: The reason the BW games are better to watch are because it is a much more developed game. For example look at football (soccer for you Americans) nowadays compared to era's gone by, the level that the players now are at is far far better as a result of the game being more figured out and everyone improving with time. We are going to see that with SC2 imo, if you look back when the game was first released you had technically bad games, and even now they are nowhere near what you would call mechanically 'good'. Give it time, the game will improve and so will the players. OT: Can't wait to see what happens with the switch, I know it is hard for you BW fanatics to take but I feel your pain, I was there when MLG swapped from Halo 2 to 3 and then from 3 to Reach, change hurts but you get used to it
I'm not hating on you, but I think you are wrong with both soccer and BW. Compare the days of Pele, Maradonna, Ronaldo, Beckam and so on, the evolution of the Netherlands style beautiful (but boring) possession play, I don't believe that soccer is any more exciting than it was back then, and neither is BW. BW has always been amazing since the days of Boxer and beyond.
BW has evolved much in the same way Soccer has. In Soccer, teams no longer purely rely on strong forward lines and super-star players to dribble past every body, we now realise that games are won in the midfield and strong possession play. It is based on achieving small victories in passing, defense and overall long-term strategy rather than focusing on scoring as much as possible. If you never lose the ball, how can they score? We can see this from the transition from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2 and eventually 4-5-1 formations.
How does this relate to BW? BW used to be based on strong early game aggression, uninhibited creativity and micro-intensive plays to do as much damage as possible. Now it is about being as greedy as possible early on and playing safe and achieving small victories all the time, games are no longer won on outright damage, but economic advantage while causing economic problems to our opponents and "getting more ahead". Why? Because it doesn't matter how good your micro is, how aggressive you are, or how much damage you do, I will simply win if I can just defend and end up with more stuff than you.
The paradigm shift to macro-centric play was when Boxer started to fall, it simply didn't matter how many lurkers he could kill with his 1 marine, the other players would just simply out-macro him. While this was an evolution to gameplay, Oov who started this trend "The Cheater Terran" known for just making a ridiculous amount of units, wasn't very well liked for his boring passive play. It was an improvement to the gameplay and skill, but not all improvements necessarily make the game "better".
I don't know why its hard for people to understand that BW didn't need 10 years to get as good as it did, when some people would say it was better back in the days of boxer. I wasn't around back then, but my opinion is that the game has definitely changed a lot over the years, but its watch-ability never improved that much, though the change is necessary to keep the game fresh. I still occasionally watch Boxer Nada Reach games, and I don't think any less of the game, it was as awesome back then as it was now. That's why its so silly to say "hey SC2 still has 10 years" because BW was still more interesting to watch than SC2, 10 years ago.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
"Destruction" is a pretty exaggerated term. We're just saying it would be no fun to watch them in SC2.
Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
But then again, these aren't very good examples since they're old pros anyway.
Still, it wouldn't be fun. We'd just be constantly reminded that the maneuvers they pull in SC2 would be a lot cooler (and a lot harder to do) if they did it in BW.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
"Destruction" is a pretty exaggerated term. We're just saying it would be no fun to watch them in SC2.
Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
But then again, these aren't very good examples since they're old pros anyway.
Still, it wouldn't be fun. We'd just be constantly reminded that the maneuvers they pull in SC2 would be a lot cooler (and a lot harder to do) if they did it in BW.
The problem is with the majority of sc2 fans who argued that sc2 is focus more on strategy than mechanics makes me think everything should be automated from rallying scvs to mineral,to making marines with a single click and getting upgrades also with a single click . So they can sit back and relax while microing at battle's only .
Wasn't it Supreme commander 2 that had all these automated macro functions so players can just sit back and watch the action ? I think Supreme commander 2 is a better strategy game .
Resources are deducted from the total during the build. If there are insufficient resources to complete the build then engineers and factories will build as far as current resources allow and then remain in a quasi-paused state until more resources become available. With this change, the building mechanic more closely resembles that of the previous game.
You guys remind me of myself when the broodwar expansion was released. It´s so hard to let go and demonize the newcomer. Looking back, i now know that Broodwar was a pretty good expansion and maybe it wouldnt have hurt to try it.
On April 16 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote: Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
I and many others enjoyed watching Boxer get as far as he did in MLG, especially with pictures of Boxer practicing late into the night after the matches ended that day Boxer created many upsets and nobody expected him to get as far as he did.
You see, we are confronted with a dilemma:
1) BW pros all retire, SC2 fails, and LoL takes over the e-sports scene
As much as you guys hate to see BW give way to sc2, Kespa doesn't really give a shit about the couple thousand foreign BW fans that watch it over a FREE stream.
On April 16 2012 20:26 BritWrangler wrote: As much as you guys hate to see BW give way to sc2, Kespa doesn't really give a shit about the couple thousand foreign BW fans that watch it over a FREE stream.
well, obviously they wont give shit to the foreign fans, but the koreans are also opposing that..
I`m trying so hard to understand this but I just can`t! Kespa always worried only about fans in Korea,so why are they killing BW than? BW is much bigger in Korea than SC2 is. And last 2 proleague finals + OSL final have been absolutely crazy,reaching great number of viewers and getting much attention. So why are they killing it? But the worst part is...It had to die because of such an inferior game. So sad.
On April 16 2012 20:26 BritWrangler wrote: As much as you guys hate to see sc2 give way to lol, nobody really gives a shit about the ten thousand foreign fans that watch it over a FREE stream.
Reality v Fantasy was modern E-Sports to me. I saw a tailored, stylistic build, and I saw greatness coming back and winning the game. The current popular games lack this, there's little greatness and much taking advantage of an opponent's incompetence. No Revolutionary War, but Napoleon's invasion of Russia.
When I saw Fantasy take the game back from that position, I saw Fantasy outplaying Reality in every engagement and slowly gaining ground while preventing Reality's early advantage from decapitating him. I did not see Reality acting like a irreponsible and incompetent player like the many of the SC2/DotA2/LoL progamers that suffer comebacks. I saw Reality playing consistently- and Fantasy playing better.
I didn't spend nearly as much time watching BW as the people on this forum. I didn't breathe it, I didn't live it. I played BW long time ago. I watched a bit. This must be how it felt when they heard that Rome had fallen. Perhaps in another 15 years someone will rebuild the world of E-Sports. For now, we enter into E-Sports' Gilded Age, in which we deceive ourselves that mere hundreds of thousands of stream viewers for Western tournaments are an improvement to Brood War's glory.
If these rumors have substance, then farewell Broodwar. E-Sports has become a dimmer place without you.
On April 16 2012 18:41 Netsky wrote: Maybe I'm totally out of the loop (sorry don't follow that much BW recently), but what does this mean?
"For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW."
In a best of 7.
Game 1: Brood War. Game 2: SC2. Game 3: BW Game 4: SC2 Game 5: BW Game 6: SC2 Game 7 (ace match): Always BW.
Or something like that. Maybe Game 1 would be SC2 and it alternates from there but with Game 7 always being BW.
It's a very ugly format, tbh. I would much rather have both games be in separate leagues.
This is so wrong ..
It goes a little something like this:
Game 1: Broodwar Game 2: SC2 Game 3: LoL Game 4: SF2 Game 5: Go Game 6: Tekken Game 7: Soccer or Football or whatever you call that damned name of a game kicking a spotted ball.
On April 16 2012 18:41 Netsky wrote: Maybe I'm totally out of the loop (sorry don't follow that much BW recently), but what does this mean?
"For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW."
In a best of 7.
Game 1: Brood War. Game 2: SC2. Game 3: BW Game 4: SC2 Game 5: BW Game 6: SC2 Game 7 (ace match): Always BW.
Or something like that. Maybe Game 1 would be SC2 and it alternates from there but with Game 7 always being BW.
It's a very ugly format, tbh. I would much rather have both games be in separate leagues.
This is so wrong ..
It goes a little something like this:
Game 1: Broodwar Game 2: SC2 Game 3: LoL Game 4: SF2 Game 5: Go Game 6: Tekken Game 7: Soccer or Football or whatever you call that damned name of a game kicking a spotted ball.
Well i guess it was either 1 game of BW 1 game of SC2 or they just completely switch to sc2 which would have pissed everyone off more.
On April 16 2012 15:25 doothegee wrote: Typical bullshit from trash reporting companies. (Ilgan sports? Really?) The article says "Korean fans have begun to be more accepting of Starcraft 2 blahblahblah" when it's clear that absolutely noone thinks this is a good idea. Then again, this means that Kespa is trying to pressure e-sports news sources to write pro-SC2 articles, so the switch is probably bound to happen.
They have no choice. Remember, they have to say those kinds of things for PR.
Fomos started covering SC2 again just around when the computers and swapped and all of that. From that you can figure out when they were actually serious about the idea.
Anyway there's still nothing for certain. KeSPA can still pull a "ok we're doing SC2 completely". There's many things in "theory" that makes them like the bw/sc2 thing they're planning though...
That is somehow sad yet hilarious at the same time. thank you for that good sir!
There could be still winner league, the article says "those who are good with both games get more spotlight". Now i would call that really amazing if someone rolls in both games.
As for BW dieing, as long as ppl plays the game, its never going to end. Also i'am 100% sure, there will be ex-pro players streaming, and some "undergroundish" tournaments still happening.
As bad as I feel for BW taking this turn (I like to watch BW sometimes), I can't help but gloat a bit when I read the amount of elitist comments in this thread.
I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
"Destruction" is a pretty exaggerated term. We're just saying it would be no fun to watch them in SC2.
Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
But then again, these aren't very good examples since they're old pros anyway.
Still, it wouldn't be fun. We'd just be constantly reminded that the maneuvers they pull in SC2 would be a lot cooler (and a lot harder to do) if they did it in BW.
The problem is with the majority of sc2 fans who argued that sc2 is focus more on strategy than mechanics makes me think everything should be automated from rallying scvs to mineral,to making marines with a single click and getting upgrades also with a single click . So they can sit back and relax while microing at battle's only .
The other problem I think with this argument is that this focus assumes that it will promote more creative strategies. Unfortunately there are huge inhibitions to strategy development in SC2. For example Warpgate costs 50/50 and seemingly takes hours to research, it is also a "must have" research. Can we realistically expect for example, super fast +1 air upgrades before warpgate research, not really. Yet fast +1 air is almost staple in PvZ nowadays in BW. In fact this is one of the main gripes with SC2, anything outside that boringly "necessary" linear tech path, and you are stepping into the world of cheese, because without warp-gate, forcefields, a factory, a starport, in the early game, you face dire consequences if your opponent sees what's coming.
SC2 strategy development is tied down by all these early game, absolutely necessary before anything else, tech that takes too long or is too cheap or is "too necessary". Stim takes half the amount of time in BW than it does in SC2, Concussive shells costs 50/50, ups for bio only need armory instead of science facility, heal also comes with drop, etc, etc, etc. No longer is there this decision making of do I want fast drop, or do I want a stronger bio army, or do I want faster science facility for faster upgrades? you are going to need an armory eventually to upgrade your tanks, healers also give you drop, and you need a starport to get healers. Where is the potential strategy development? You must get a starport if you are gonna use stim a lot, well you have drop now so why the hell not! you must get an armory to get bio ups, so then +1 mech weapons, tanks and easy mech transition ahoy! In BW you can have 5 raxes before your 1st factory but limit yourself to +1 attack and not tech for a long time, then lift all your raxes and drop 5 facts, or you can go 1-1-1 and make valkyries, or make 8 raxes, lift your tech only factory and pump nothing but bio and a handful of vessels the whole game.
In the end SC2 TvZ has become more "focused" on mechanics than BW has, because of these painfully linear tech paths. Sure MKP can micro his bio a while longer than others, and we do see reactor hellion openings, but most of the game, and most games always look very similar. Contrast that of how Flash plays on Matchpoint Eye of the Storm and Sniper Ridge. Matchpoint he goes for heavy metal play, pure mech from beginning to end. Eye of the Storm 8 Rax SKTerran pure bio from beginning to end. Sniper Ridge, +1 5 Rax opening, once mid-late-game he lifts all the raxes and transitions to pure mech.
BW still has awesome strategies coming out, that I think are more deep and interesting than SC2. In BW you can't get away with just being sneaky and winning outright such as the maka rax (unless you are Flash). And longer serving strategies such as Stephano ZvP which is basically a mass roach 3rd denial build, pales in comparison to builds like 3 base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra, which its efficiency is almost based on simcity design and countering Protoss tech directly with its own, designed to counter the original Bisu build. Shortly thereafter the neo Bisu +1 air ups speedlot build was invented.
Instead what you get is extremely well thought out strategies that serve to counter a series of responses from the defender to get you enough ahead that you can. I present to you, the most abusive build of 2011, the evil build.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that.
Yes, you see it everywhere as soon as this BW vs Sc2 topic pops up.
On April 16 2012 21:00 sluggaslamoo wrote: The other problem I think with this argument is that this focus assumes that it will promote more creative strategies. Unfortunately there are huge inhibitions to strategy development in SC2. For example Warpgate costs 50/50 and seemingly takes hours to research, it is also a "must have" research. Can we realistically expect for example, super fast +1 air upgrades before warpgate research, not really. Yet fast +1 air is almost staple in PvZ nowadays in BW. In fact this is one of the main gripes with SC2, anything outside that boringly "necessary" linear tech path, and you are stepping into the world of cheese, because without warp-gate, forcefields, a factory, a starport, in the early game, you face dire consequences if your opponent sees what's coming.
SC2 strategy development is tied down by all these early game, absolutely necessary before anything else, tech that takes too long or is too cheap or is "too necessary". Stim takes half the amount of time in BW than it does in SC2, Concussive shells costs 50/50, ups for bio only need armory instead of science facility, heal also comes with drop, etc, etc, etc. No longer is there this decision making of do I want fast drop, or do I want a stronger bio army, or do I want faster science facility for faster upgrades? you are going to need an armory eventually to upgrade your tanks, healers also give you drop, and you need a starport to get healers. Where is the potential strategy development? You must get a starport if you are gonna use stim, you must get tanks to kill banelings, therefore you must get an armory. In BW you can have 5 raxes before your 1st factory but limit yourself to +1 attack and not tech for a long time, or you can go 1-1-1 and make valkyries, or make 8 raxes, lift your tech only factory and pump nothing but bio and a handful of vessels.
Forge FE against Terran, used 3 times in the GSL in the past week, never previously. Also, SC2 Terran has like 50 viable openings what the hell are you talking about.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
I'm sick to death of the "give it time!" argument from BW fans. Hyun had years of experience in BW, there's no excuse for him not to have built off that knowledge
To be frank Why HyuN or ForGG "fails" is different from what people believe it is. Its not they are bad, its that they are either unmotivated or unguided and they both still play "BW styled" SC2 and you can't play it like that, ForGG fucks up on simple hotkeying... its pretty sad to see. Those players in BW teams will transition much more smoothly than players who broke out and joined SC2 teams, SC2 teams won't really guide you in HOW to lose BW centered mentality and create new SC2 one. However BW teams where everyone will face the exact same problem which is "how to translate my ablities into SC2" will have much better environment for that improvement. Its not the matter of innate skills, because BW was deeper proving ground in that regard and HyuN/ForGG passed it long time ago.
On April 16 2012 21:11 bgx wrote: To be frank Why HyuN or ForGG "fails" is different from what people believe it is. Its not they are bad, its that they are either unmotivated or unguided and they both still play "BW styled" SC2 and you can't play it like that, ForGG fucks up on simple hotkeying... its pretty sad to see. Those players in BW teams will transition much more smoothly than players who broke out and joined SC2 teams, SC2 teams won't really guide you in HOW to lose BW centered mentality and create new SC2 one. However BW teams where everyone will face the exact same problem which is "how to translate my ablities into SC2" will have much better environment for that improvement. Its not the matter of innate skills, because BW was deeper proving ground in that regard and HyuN/ForGG passed it long time ago.
I was thinking about that when it comes to ForGG some time ago (about the time when he did his Code S debut). He really grinds games like a madman so it's not that he is unmotivated and he has been playing SC2 since season 1 so it's not really like he is playing "BWish". The problem is actually like you said, his hotkeying. He loses sooooo many games by not having all his orbitals on like 0 when he has more than three of theem. By that time he has his scv count finished but he is missing out so much on economy because he is missing so many mules. Like that series against Leenock in Code S, he had like 1 or 2 orbitals full with energy that he didn't use and that is one huge thing that cost him the games.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that.
Yes, you see it everywhere as soon as this BW vs Sc2 topic pops up.
Hyun joined TSL in November and stated he started playing a month prior to joining them. that gives us six months, everybody who's seen HyuN play recently knows that the guy has an awful gamesense and sense of strategy. He basically just maxes out on a unit then a-moves and then keeps doing that until he wins or loses. T_T
However I do not support the argument that bw players are mechanics-only, but BW and SC2 are different games. Your skill can translate over to starcraft 2, but it can certainly not do it as well. bw skill does not = sc2 skill. that is the most stupid argument ever. a BW player most likely has a slightly bigger advantage over a player from wc3/c&c/etc. but just slightly.
just want to get this out there. while i understand BW fans feelings and in no way mean any disrespect to them, I wish they would realize that SC2 is extremely new and unexplored. BW did not come out of the gate with prefect Builds and perfect mechanics and the epic insanely awesome play we see today. we are already see more and more thought out and "perfected" strategies. the game is still developing so seeing the best and most talented BW players switching over to SC2 will only mean that SC2 will reach the point BW is at faster and we will see better SC2 matches hopefully on the same scale of epicness of the BW games now. my advice give it a chance and time BW is not dead yet.
On April 16 2012 21:27 wassbix wrote: On the bright side, BW fans can finally get a good night sleep since we can skip on watching live . (God bless vods)
Thank you for bringing up the bright side of this news :D
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
On April 16 2012 20:57 howLiN wrote:
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that.
Yes, you see it everywhere as soon as this BW vs Sc2 topic pops up.
Hyun joined TSL in November and stated he started playing a month prior to joining them. that gives us six months, everybody who's seen HyuN play recently knows that the guy has an awful gamesense and sense of strategy. He basically just maxes out on a unit then a-moves and then keeps doing that until he wins or loses. T_T
However I do not support the argument that bw players are mechanics-only, but BW and SC2 are different games. Your skill can translate over to starcraft 2, but it can certainly not do it as well. bw skill does not = sc2 skill. that is the most stupid argument ever. a BW player most likely has a slightly bigger advantage over a player from wc3/c&c/etc. but just slightly.
I don't get why these two games can't co-exists, just as how basketball and hockey co-exists, or how Street Fighter and Tekken scene co-exists. Why must they try to kill off BW instead of just letting the players choose whichever they want to play? This is pretty retarded move.
On April 16 2012 21:27 wassbix wrote: On the bright side, BW fans can finally get a good night sleep since we can skip on watching live . (God bless vods)
That's going to be sad since the epicness couldn't compare. Live >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VoDs
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
On April 16 2012 20:57 howLiN wrote:
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
Um, no one said that.
Yes, you see it everywhere as soon as this BW vs Sc2 topic pops up.
Hyun joined TSL in November and stated he started playing a month prior to joining them. that gives us six months, everybody who's seen HyuN play recently knows that the guy has an awful gamesense and sense of strategy. He basically just maxes out on a unit then a-moves and then keeps doing that until he wins or loses. T_T
However I do not support the argument that bw players are mechanics-only, but BW and SC2 are different games. Your skill can translate over to starcraft 2, but it can certainly not do it as well. bw skill does not = sc2 skill. that is the most stupid argument ever. a BW player most likely has a slightly bigger advantage over a player from wc3/c&c/etc. but just slightly.
Yeah but Hyun was actually quite bad at BW too
Not only that Hyun's only saving grace was his Muta micro in BW XD
On April 16 2012 21:29 psychotics wrote: just want to get this out there. while i understand BW fans feelings and in no way mean any disrespect to them, I wish they would realize that SC2 is extremely new and unexplored. BW did not come out of the gate with prefect Builds and perfect mechanics and the epic insanely awesome play we see today. we are already see more and more thought out and "perfected" strategies. the game is still developing so seeing the best and most talented BW players switching over to SC2 will only mean that SC2 will reach the point BW is at faster and we will see better SC2 matches hopefully on the same scale of epicness of the BW games now. my advice give it a chance and time BW is not dead yet.
This is assuming the games are equals in gameplay, strategic depth, etc. Years of COD won't make it Counter-Strike. SC2 has given plenty of time to develop, and it honestly hasn't in my opinion (beyond changing builds to suit various nerfs/buffs)
It's just as likely (more so actually) that one game just plain isn't as good as the other. Either way it's getting its shot, whether you think it will flourish and start a new era of Korean esports or it's an albatross is irrelevant, time will tell.
BW did not come out of the gate with prefect Builds and perfect mechanics and the epic insanely awesome play we see today. we are already see more and more thought out and "perfected" strategies
BW isn't chess you don't move pieces to x and than check mate I win it isn't perfect . If it is flash would have a 100% win rate because his builds are some how always design to out play his opponent in which he can gain a significant advantage from there. Calm probably would have a 100% win rate because if you see his play he really put's time in to the strategy department..
On April 16 2012 21:29 psychotics wrote: just want to get this out there. while i understand BW fans feelings and in no way mean any disrespect to them, I wish they would realize that SC2 is extremely new and unexplored. BW did not come out of the gate with prefect Builds and perfect mechanics and the epic insanely awesome play we see today. we are already see more and more thought out and "perfected" strategies. the game is still developing so seeing the best and most talented BW players switching over to SC2 will only mean that SC2 will reach the point BW is at faster and we will see better SC2 matches hopefully on the same scale of epicness of the BW games now. my advice give it a chance and time BW is not dead yet.
BW was god damn awesome even in 1999. (For me at least). If SC2 sucks for me now,it will suck forever. And it doesn`t have to do anything with strategies,just the look and gameplay.
On April 16 2012 21:29 psychotics wrote: just want to get this out there. while i understand BW fans feelings and in no way mean any disrespect to them, I wish they would realize that SC2 is extremely new and unexplored. BW did not come out of the gate with prefect Builds and perfect mechanics and the epic insanely awesome play we see today. we are already see more and more thought out and "perfected" strategies. the game is still developing so seeing the best and most talented BW players switching over to SC2 will only mean that SC2 will reach the point BW is at faster and we will see better SC2 matches hopefully on the same scale of epicness of the BW games now. my advice give it a chance and time BW is not dead yet.
No you and 99% of people who says that DO NOT understand, medieval aged BW was as exciting for people back then as it is now. Even pre-boxer era Grrr.... was highly regarded in Korean community then Boxer came and the hell break loose . People were fainting when they saw his marines/dropship antics on 1 base and 150 apm. IT WAS EXCITING
And thats where the crux is, BW is amazing on micro and macro scale, because how fast paced SC2 is its hard to achive those micro scale glories you got in BW, by the 10 minute mark a dropship with 2 tanks is useless in SC2 while it still can give u a boner in BW. etc etc etc
Man, I just realized, I don't really have a reason to come to TL anymore if there's no more BW coverage, all the other stuff I do in TL is crap I do while waiting for BW games.
God. Despite not following BW on a daily or even weekly basis anymore, just knowing that it's there for me when I need THE game with which I can really cuddle..
Don't leave me please! =/
There are so many girls out there to have fun with, but there is only one Brood War.
On April 16 2012 21:29 psychotics wrote: just want to get this out there. while i understand BW fans feelings and in no way mean any disrespect to them, I wish they would realize that SC2 is extremely new and unexplored. BW did not come out of the gate with prefect Builds and perfect mechanics and the epic insanely awesome play we see today. we are already see more and more thought out and "perfected" strategies. the game is still developing so seeing the best and most talented BW players switching over to SC2 will only mean that SC2 will reach the point BW is at faster and we will see better SC2 matches hopefully on the same scale of epicness of the BW games now. my advice give it a chance and time BW is not dead yet.
No you and 99% of people who says that DO NOT understand, medieval aged BW was as exciting for people back then as it is now. Even pre-boxer era Grrr.... was highly regarded in Korean community then Boxer came and the hell break loose . People were fainting when they saw his marines/dropship antics on 1 base and 150 apm. IT WAS EXCITING
And thats where the crux is, BW is amazing on micro and macro scale, because how fast paced SC2 is its hard to achive those micro scale glories you got in BW, by the 10 minute mark a dropship with 2 tanks is useless in SC2 while it still can give u a boner in BW. etc etc etc
This a 100%. SC2 fans come here saying things like: "Give it time. You can't compare a game that has developed for 10 years with a game that only had 2 years". The thing is: BW has developed for 10 years (more actually), but the game was already pretty fucking good back then. The game didn't take 10 years to become good, it was great back then and has been great all the while.
I also don't get this "let's enjoy SC2 now because one day it'll be good". What's the reasoning behind this? Hell, if one day SC2 actually becomes good, we'll enjoy it, but for now they should keep the BW leagues for BW is the better game now (and will probably always be).
On April 16 2012 21:00 sluggaslamoo wrote: The other problem I think with this argument is that this focus assumes that it will promote more creative strategies. Unfortunately there are huge inhibitions to strategy development in SC2. For example Warpgate costs 50/50 and seemingly takes hours to research, it is also a "must have" research. Can we realistically expect for example, super fast +1 air upgrades before warpgate research, not really. Yet fast +1 air is almost staple in PvZ nowadays in BW. In fact this is one of the main gripes with SC2, anything outside that boringly "necessary" linear tech path, and you are stepping into the world of cheese, because without warp-gate, forcefields, a factory, a starport, in the early game, you face dire consequences if your opponent sees what's coming.
SC2 strategy development is tied down by all these early game, absolutely necessary before anything else, tech that takes too long or is too cheap or is "too necessary". Stim takes half the amount of time in BW than it does in SC2, Concussive shells costs 50/50, ups for bio only need armory instead of science facility, heal also comes with drop, etc, etc, etc. No longer is there this decision making of do I want fast drop, or do I want a stronger bio army, or do I want faster science facility for faster upgrades? you are going to need an armory eventually to upgrade your tanks, healers also give you drop, and you need a starport to get healers. Where is the potential strategy development? You must get a starport if you are gonna use stim, you must get tanks to kill banelings, therefore you must get an armory. In BW you can have 5 raxes before your 1st factory but limit yourself to +1 attack and not tech for a long time, or you can go 1-1-1 and make valkyries, or make 8 raxes, lift your tech only factory and pump nothing but bio and a handful of vessels.
Forge FE against Terran, used 3 times in the GSL in the past week, never previously. Also, SC2 Terran has like 50 viable openings what the hell are you talking about.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
I'm sick to death of the "give it time!" argument from BW fans. Hyun had years of experience in BW, there's no excuse for him not to have built off that knowledge
;P
@Point 1
Forge FE is not a build, its an opening. There are at least 5 protoss builds in both SC2 and BW that are Forge FE, not just the bisu build.
Lets see a single Forge FE solid build vs T explained up to 30 or so supply, that can be used consecutively for 2 years and more, like the Flash build, the neo Bisu build, 3 base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra, 2 Rax Academy Tech, and so on. I wanna see it used at least every game in one bo3 and then consecutively at least twice in a Bo3 and defend against everything in the GSL, for 2 years. Just like neo Bisu/Flash build/Jaedong build in BW. If it can't do that, its not really a revolution or a viable strategy. Its just something that you add to your mixup repertoire.
Lets see a solid build where +1 air weapons is upgraded before warpgate, or any cybercore research for that matter. Like I said its a "necessary research" and is almost free, wont happen unless its cheese.
Lets see a solid 5 rax opening with no starport or factory that isn't an all in and can be used every game.
Lets see a solid 20 min bio TvZ build with no tanks.
Lets see a bio TvP with marauders where concussive shells isn't researched before mid-game in order to squeeze out tech or units. (Brainless 50/50 cost research, not gonna happen unless you just couldn't be bothered researching it)
Lets see more games of Mech TvP in SC2 than Bionic in BW.
Nearly every single TvZ in SC2 revolves around marines/medivacs/ghosts and tanks. Doesn't matter what the opening is, it can be reactor hellion, or 16CC, it will always end up working towards the same composition, it has to, as I explained earlier that is the way the game is designed. BW is the opposite, we almost always see the 1 Rax FE opening, but it branches out into many many different solid compositions. SKTerran, Valkonic, Bionic, Mech, 2 Rax Tech, 2 fact speed vultures, 2 Fact 4 Rax Goliath Marine, all require totally different unit compositions and style of play.
Don't be fooled, the many different openings we see in SC2 is due to the fact that its so much easier to completely anhilate a player when you know exactly how they are going to open. The Forge FE is still quite risky in SC2, you can easily die to a Roach/Ling all in, much more easily than a hydra bust in BW.
The cause of the variety of openings is due to metagaming, if we change our openings, we prevent the other player from being able to safely blindly all in. This is not a necessary factor in BW tournaments, you can open the same build every game and defend against everything, but its necessary in SC2 tournaments because there is no such build, I learned this through playing in minor SC2 tournaments on SEA, and that same factor is probably why IdrA isn't the top player even though he dominates ladder.
@Point 2
To be fair, most BW people thought they would dominate from the beginning, SC2 players were saying that they wouldn't and they needed time.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
It so sad to see the ignorancy of some of you guys. Why you call it BW? Because SC1 wasn't even close to BW. But yea bash the young SC2 and spread ur ignorancy across the world.
Hope Kespa doesn't mess it up like it seems BW is awesome to watch. SC2 is awesome to watch. Both to detemine a better Team? Please no.
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
On April 16 2012 15:14 Keone wrote: To all you "meh, bound to happen"-types... f* you. BW has been such a huge part of my life, I can't just be apathetic to this.
If they don't keep BW going, the term "ESPORTS" is fundamentally flawed and will never truly exist. You don't just "scrap" a true sport. True sports have one thing in common: great history. Proleague is a part of that enormous and invaluable history that belongs to gaming, and if it trashes BW, then we no longer have esports.
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
On April 16 2012 21:36 Fubi wrote: I don't get why these two games can't co-exists, just as how basketball and hockey co-exists, or how Street Fighter and Tekken scene co-exists. Why must they try to kill off BW instead of just letting the players choose whichever they want to play? This is pretty retarded move.
Clearly BW is no longer financially viable. I don't think they want to get rid of it either which is why they aren't doing a full sc2 switch.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
Hope Kespa doesn't mess it up like it seems BW is awesome to watch. SC2 is awesome to watch. Both to detemine a better Team? Please no.
i'm fine with watching sc2, but it's not logical to watch a competition consist of two games played during alternate set.. everyone is already saying that SC2 is a completely different game yea?
just imagine watching sports tournament of badminton, but it isnt purely badminton, since every alternate sets will be tennis, and the winning country is determined by both sports.. seriously really?
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
It so sad to see the ignorancy of some of you guys. Why you call it BW? Because SC1 wasn't even close to BW. But yea bash the young SC2 and spread ur ignorancy across the world.
Hope Kespa doesn't mess it up like it seems BW is awesome to watch. SC2 is awesome to watch. Both to detemine a better Team? Please no.
Broodwar was released six months after SC1, so are you seriously trying to say something about it?
And besides, even if competitive SC1 was pretty impossible, why are trying to compare SC1 with SC2, as if SC2 is supposed to be fucking terrible (which it is) before it gets better?
All of these comments are really really counter intuitive.
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
BW is the chance of a real e-sport to exist. But maybe the door closes now.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
I am just saying BW is dying, and there is nothing you can do about it. Unless you are filthy rich and can throw millions of dollars at the scene. No "protest" or similar action will change the fact that BW is dead within a year.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
I am just saying BW is dying, and there is nothing you can do about it. Unless you are filthy rich and can throw millions of dollars at the scene. No "protest" or similar action will change the fact that BW is dead within a year.
Then just keep it in your fucking mouth and don't say it. All of us already are going through the painful process of losing the best game ever, why do you have to come in and just say it?
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
So what? I doubt that anyone fell in love with BW because "of the way it looks" or its graphics. It`s the gameplay that amazed all of us. But I guess that we all need to accept that we live in a time where it`s much more important how something looks than anything else. (same thing with music and movies).
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
BW is the chance of a real e-sport to exist. But maybe the door closes now.
My point is, with each passing generation theres less and less player to not only try out BW but even hear of it. This is not the case in any sport that actually happens in real life.
And yes, i know Korea is a different and BW became close to a real sport, but as many other said here before, if its not profitable anymore, it will go away. If football would be completly waste of money, there wouldn't be such huge salaries and this many teams. Sadly, afterall money runs the world.
Thats why i said ealier, as long as you, me and others keep playing BW on iccup / fish / lans, ppl streaming, tournaments still happening, the game wont die.
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