On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
yea, i always find it weird that people think BW gamers MUST transit only and only to SC2.. there are other games right?
RTS pros will play new RTS games. A-RTS pros will play new A-RTS games (or moba if you want to call it that). FPS pros will play new FPS games.
This is how esports will continue to develop imo. As long as games are competitive and have a strong interest people will transfer between them, it's the genre that will define things.
On April 16 2012 15:28 newvsoldschool wrote: Does Blizzard plan to increase the skill ceiling for SC2 now that Flash / Jaedong / Bisu (or most A-team progamers) will make the game such a yawn fest?
Yet it is far from reached. And ForGG proved that ex-BW Champs are not necessarily better than the "average" SCII players.
The rotational system is crap though. As is the lack of interaction with GOMTV.
Stop. No. Get out of here. ForGG arguments are shit.
On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote: I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen.
The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large".
To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical.
As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport.
These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will.
Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live.
My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration.
Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others.
Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading.
I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I think you need to live in korea and understand what happens when you mention esports. People will roll their eyes at you. I guarantee. Maybe in america there are communities, but people forget, outside communities, people aren't as accepting
What is wrong with every game that is played competitively being called an e-sport? Is BW the only true e-sport in your mind?
well he said he lives in Korea, and believe it or not, broodwar there is really an iconic thing back then.. it's like, even their grandmother knows broodwar.. as a matter of fact, all my korean teachers who taught me before (at least 7) knows starcraft, and 2 even played them..
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
yea, i always find it weird that people think BW gamers MUST transit only and only to SC2.. there are other games right?
Let's be honest here, BW and SC2 are two pretty different games. However, the overarching idea behind it remains pretty much the same. 1v1, control your army and manage your economy, make decisions based on information you have and assumptions based on information you dont and make decisions accordingly, and if you do that better then your opponent you win the game.
Because the concept behind both of these games are pretty similar to transition from one into the other would go a lot smoother as well. LoL and other dota-esque games are massively different compared to starcraft, only a handful of maps, most of which have the same layouts, team play as opposed to 1v1 and only one unit to control. Starcraft and LoL are worlds apart.
So when people say that when bw ceases to exist and all the pro's will either switch to sc2 or retire, i don't think they miss the target by a whole lot.
Better SC2 than LoL. Because BW's popularity is dieing, I only see two outcomes:
1) Transition to SC2 and watch many of our favorite BW players continue their career in SC2
2) Watch LoL take over the e-sports scene and sponsors and watch ALL our favorite BW players retire.
SC2 is the lone holdout in the RTS genre. It's a MOBA world now.
I enjoy watching July, Boxer, Nada, ForGG, etc, continue their career in SC2. Without SC2, all the ex-BW players playing SC2 now would have retired and we would be watching LoL in the near future.
Say NO to LoL and MOBAs. I disagree with many here that would rather see our favorite BW players retiring than having the option to watch them continue their careers in SC2 - I get the feeling that many in this thread would not mind if LoL takes over the e-sports scene.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
On April 16 2012 19:19 paradoxOO9 wrote: The reason the BW games are better to watch are because it is a much more developed game. For example look at football (soccer for you Americans) nowadays compared to era's gone by, the level that the players now are at is far far better as a result of the game being more figured out and everyone improving with time. We are going to see that with SC2 imo, if you look back when the game was first released you had technically bad games, and even now they are nowhere near what you would call mechanically 'good'. Give it time, the game will improve and so will the players. OT: Can't wait to see what happens with the switch, I know it is hard for you BW fanatics to take but I feel your pain, I was there when MLG swapped from Halo 2 to 3 and then from 3 to Reach, change hurts but you get used to it
I'm not hating on you, but I think you are wrong with both soccer and BW. Compare the days of Pele, Maradonna, Ronaldo, Beckam and so on, the evolution of the Netherlands style beautiful (but boring) possession play, I don't believe that soccer is any more exciting than it was back then, and neither is BW. BW has always been amazing since the days of Boxer and beyond.
BW has evolved much in the same way Soccer has. In Soccer, teams no longer purely rely on strong forward lines and super-star players to dribble past every body, we now realise that games are won in the midfield and strong possession play. It is based on achieving small victories in passing, defense and overall long-term strategy rather than focusing on scoring as much as possible. If you never lose the ball, how can they score? We can see this from the transition from 4-3-3 to 4-4-2 and eventually 4-5-1 formations.
How does this relate to BW? BW used to be based on strong early game aggression, uninhibited creativity and micro-intensive plays to do as much damage as possible. Now it is about being as greedy as possible early on and playing safe and achieving small victories all the time, games are no longer won on outright damage, but economic advantage while causing economic problems to our opponents and "getting more ahead". Why? Because it doesn't matter how good your micro is, how aggressive you are, or how much damage you do, I will simply win if I can just defend and end up with more stuff than you.
The paradigm shift to macro-centric play was when Boxer started to fall, it simply didn't matter how many lurkers he could kill with his 1 marine, the other players would just simply out-macro him. While this was an evolution to gameplay, Oov who started this trend "The Cheater Terran" known for just making a ridiculous amount of units, wasn't very well liked for his boring passive play. It was an improvement to the gameplay and skill, but not all improvements necessarily make the game "better".
I don't know why its hard for people to understand that BW didn't need 10 years to get as good as it did, when some people would say it was better back in the days of boxer. I wasn't around back then, but my opinion is that the game has definitely changed a lot over the years, but its watch-ability never improved that much, though the change is necessary to keep the game fresh. I still occasionally watch Boxer Nada Reach games, and I don't think any less of the game, it was as awesome back then as it was now. That's why its so silly to say "hey SC2 still has 10 years" because BW was still more interesting to watch than SC2, 10 years ago.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
"Destruction" is a pretty exaggerated term. We're just saying it would be no fun to watch them in SC2.
Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
But then again, these aren't very good examples since they're old pros anyway.
Still, it wouldn't be fun. We'd just be constantly reminded that the maneuvers they pull in SC2 would be a lot cooler (and a lot harder to do) if they did it in BW.
On April 16 2012 18:41 shalafi wrote: I prefer BW dying than getting replaced by a "successor", so it's memory is not tainted.
That's why I'm rooting for LoL (a game that I dislike) rather than SC2. It does have much higher chances of becoming big than SC2, considering LoL is #1 played game in Korea and SC2 doesn't even make it to the top ten, probably not even top 15.
See, there are so many in this thread that would wish the destruction of the career of all our BW heros rather than giving our BW heros the opportunity to continue their career in SC2.
If LoL takes over the e-sports scene, I doubt that even 5% of the current BW pros will be active as a pro-gamer.
"Destruction" is a pretty exaggerated term. We're just saying it would be no fun to watch them in SC2.
Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
But then again, these aren't very good examples since they're old pros anyway.
Still, it wouldn't be fun. We'd just be constantly reminded that the maneuvers they pull in SC2 would be a lot cooler (and a lot harder to do) if they did it in BW.
The problem is with the majority of sc2 fans who argued that sc2 is focus more on strategy than mechanics makes me think everything should be automated from rallying scvs to mineral,to making marines with a single click and getting upgrades also with a single click . So they can sit back and relax while microing at battle's only .
Wasn't it Supreme commander 2 that had all these automated macro functions so players can just sit back and watch the action ? I think Supreme commander 2 is a better strategy game .
Resources are deducted from the total during the build. If there are insufficient resources to complete the build then engineers and factories will build as far as current resources allow and then remain in a quasi-paused state until more resources become available. With this change, the building mechanic more closely resembles that of the previous game.
You guys remind me of myself when the broodwar expansion was released. It´s so hard to let go and demonize the newcomer. Looking back, i now know that Broodwar was a pretty good expansion and maybe it wouldnt have hurt to try it.
On April 16 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote: Every game that Boxer has played in SC2 pales in comparison to every game he played in BW. Same with Nada, or even with ForGG. There's no flare, no spark of genius, just standard garbage.
I and many others enjoyed watching Boxer get as far as he did in MLG, especially with pictures of Boxer practicing late into the night after the matches ended that day Boxer created many upsets and nobody expected him to get as far as he did.
You see, we are confronted with a dilemma:
1) BW pros all retire, SC2 fails, and LoL takes over the e-sports scene
As much as you guys hate to see BW give way to sc2, Kespa doesn't really give a shit about the couple thousand foreign BW fans that watch it over a FREE stream.
On April 16 2012 20:26 BritWrangler wrote: As much as you guys hate to see BW give way to sc2, Kespa doesn't really give a shit about the couple thousand foreign BW fans that watch it over a FREE stream.
well, obviously they wont give shit to the foreign fans, but the koreans are also opposing that..
I`m trying so hard to understand this but I just can`t! Kespa always worried only about fans in Korea,so why are they killing BW than? BW is much bigger in Korea than SC2 is. And last 2 proleague finals + OSL final have been absolutely crazy,reaching great number of viewers and getting much attention. So why are they killing it? But the worst part is...It had to die because of such an inferior game. So sad.
On April 16 2012 20:26 BritWrangler wrote: As much as you guys hate to see sc2 give way to lol, nobody really gives a shit about the ten thousand foreign fans that watch it over a FREE stream.
Reality v Fantasy was modern E-Sports to me. I saw a tailored, stylistic build, and I saw greatness coming back and winning the game. The current popular games lack this, there's little greatness and much taking advantage of an opponent's incompetence. No Revolutionary War, but Napoleon's invasion of Russia.
When I saw Fantasy take the game back from that position, I saw Fantasy outplaying Reality in every engagement and slowly gaining ground while preventing Reality's early advantage from decapitating him. I did not see Reality acting like a irreponsible and incompetent player like the many of the SC2/DotA2/LoL progamers that suffer comebacks. I saw Reality playing consistently- and Fantasy playing better.
I didn't spend nearly as much time watching BW as the people on this forum. I didn't breathe it, I didn't live it. I played BW long time ago. I watched a bit. This must be how it felt when they heard that Rome had fallen. Perhaps in another 15 years someone will rebuild the world of E-Sports. For now, we enter into E-Sports' Gilded Age, in which we deceive ourselves that mere hundreds of thousands of stream viewers for Western tournaments are an improvement to Brood War's glory.
If these rumors have substance, then farewell Broodwar. E-Sports has become a dimmer place without you.
On April 16 2012 18:41 Netsky wrote: Maybe I'm totally out of the loop (sorry don't follow that much BW recently), but what does this mean?
"For the time being games will rotate every set but ace match is always BW."
In a best of 7.
Game 1: Brood War. Game 2: SC2. Game 3: BW Game 4: SC2 Game 5: BW Game 6: SC2 Game 7 (ace match): Always BW.
Or something like that. Maybe Game 1 would be SC2 and it alternates from there but with Game 7 always being BW.
It's a very ugly format, tbh. I would much rather have both games be in separate leagues.
This is so wrong ..
It goes a little something like this:
Game 1: Broodwar Game 2: SC2 Game 3: LoL Game 4: SF2 Game 5: Go Game 6: Tekken Game 7: Soccer or Football or whatever you call that damned name of a game kicking a spotted ball.
EPT
