On April 16 2012 21:00 sluggaslamoo wrote: The other problem I think with this argument is that this focus assumes that it will promote more creative strategies. Unfortunately there are huge inhibitions to strategy development in SC2. For example Warpgate costs 50/50 and seemingly takes hours to research, it is also a "must have" research. Can we realistically expect for example, super fast +1 air upgrades before warpgate research, not really. Yet fast +1 air is almost staple in PvZ nowadays in BW. In fact this is one of the main gripes with SC2, anything outside that boringly "necessary" linear tech path, and you are stepping into the world of cheese, because without warp-gate, forcefields, a factory, a starport, in the early game, you face dire consequences if your opponent sees what's coming.
SC2 strategy development is tied down by all these early game, absolutely necessary before anything else, tech that takes too long or is too cheap or is "too necessary". Stim takes half the amount of time in BW than it does in SC2, Concussive shells costs 50/50, ups for bio only need armory instead of science facility, heal also comes with drop, etc, etc, etc. No longer is there this decision making of do I want fast drop, or do I want a stronger bio army, or do I want faster science facility for faster upgrades? you are going to need an armory eventually to upgrade your tanks, healers also give you drop, and you need a starport to get healers. Where is the potential strategy development? You must get a starport if you are gonna use stim, you must get tanks to kill banelings, therefore you must get an armory. In BW you can have 5 raxes before your 1st factory but limit yourself to +1 attack and not tech for a long time, or you can go 1-1-1 and make valkyries, or make 8 raxes, lift your tech only factory and pump nothing but bio and a handful of vessels.
Forge FE against Terran, used 3 times in the GSL in the past week, never previously. Also, SC2 Terran has like 50 viable openings what the hell are you talking about.
On April 16 2012 20:57 Gosi wrote: I like how only sc2 fans (with that I mean people who don't care for BW and it's scene now or before) are trying to ridicule the skill and talent the current A-teamers have by saying how BW is only mechanics etc and are using people like BoxeR, July, NaDa and ForGG to prove a point how BW players won't own SC2. Meanwhile the top players are people who wasn't even "good" BW progamers or progamers at all but all of them have BW background.
The 3 best terrans are a Woongjin Terran, MBC HERO Protoss b-teamer and SKT Terran b-teamer. The 3 best zergs are a former 2v2 player and coach, Terran practice partner for CJ, and one amateur A-rank player on iccup. The 3 best tosses are MBC Hero b-teamer, FOX b-teamer and Sparkyz b-teamer.
If these people can become the top of sc2 then sure as hell any A-teamer of today could too if they just put their mind and time into it.
Hyun
What about HyuN? Yeah, he is at the same stage as ByuL. Both playing since what, like christmas and both of them are already playing against the top players everyday on ladder, but not fit for competition. Like I said, they need time but they need to put effort into it and that is what HyuN and ByuL is doing right now. You are fucking silly.
I'm sick to death of the "give it time!" argument from BW fans. Hyun had years of experience in BW, there's no excuse for him not to have built off that knowledge
;P
@Point 1
Forge FE is not a build, its an opening. There are at least 5 protoss builds in both SC2 and BW that are Forge FE, not just the bisu build.
Lets see a single Forge FE solid build vs T explained up to 30 or so supply, that can be used consecutively for 2 years and more, like the Flash build, the neo Bisu build, 3 base Spire into 5 hatch Hydra, 2 Rax Academy Tech, and so on. I wanna see it used at least every game in one bo3 and then consecutively at least twice in a Bo3 and defend against everything in the GSL, for 2 years. Just like neo Bisu/Flash build/Jaedong build in BW. If it can't do that, its not really a revolution or a viable strategy. Its just something that you add to your mixup repertoire.
Lets see a solid build where +1 air weapons is upgraded before warpgate, or any cybercore research for that matter. Like I said its a "necessary research" and is almost free, wont happen unless its cheese.
Lets see a solid 5 rax opening with no starport or factory that isn't an all in and can be used every game.
Lets see a solid 20 min bio TvZ build with no tanks.
Lets see a bio TvP with marauders where concussive shells isn't researched before mid-game in order to squeeze out tech or units. (Brainless 50/50 cost research, not gonna happen unless you just couldn't be bothered researching it)
Lets see more games of Mech TvP in SC2 than Bionic in BW.
Nearly every single TvZ in SC2 revolves around marines/medivacs/ghosts and tanks. Doesn't matter what the opening is, it can be reactor hellion, or 16CC, it will always end up working towards the same composition, it has to, as I explained earlier that is the way the game is designed. BW is the opposite, we almost always see the 1 Rax FE opening, but it branches out into many many different solid compositions. SKTerran, Valkonic, Bionic, Mech, 2 Rax Tech, 2 fact speed vultures, 2 Fact 4 Rax Goliath Marine, all require totally different unit compositions and style of play.
Don't be fooled, the many different openings we see in SC2 is due to the fact that its so much easier to completely anhilate a player when you know exactly how they are going to open. The Forge FE is still quite risky in SC2, you can easily die to a Roach/Ling all in, much more easily than a hydra bust in BW.
The cause of the variety of openings is due to metagaming, if we change our openings, we prevent the other player from being able to safely blindly all in. This is not a necessary factor in BW tournaments, you can open the same build every game and defend against everything, but its necessary in SC2 tournaments because there is no such build, I learned this through playing in minor SC2 tournaments on SEA, and that same factor is probably why IdrA isn't the top player even though he dominates ladder.
@Point 2
To be fair, most BW people thought they would dominate from the beginning, SC2 players were saying that they wouldn't and they needed time.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
It so sad to see the ignorancy of some of you guys. Why you call it BW? Because SC1 wasn't even close to BW. But yea bash the young SC2 and spread ur ignorancy across the world.
Hope Kespa doesn't mess it up like it seems BW is awesome to watch. SC2 is awesome to watch. Both to detemine a better Team? Please no.
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
On April 16 2012 15:14 Keone wrote: To all you "meh, bound to happen"-types... f* you. BW has been such a huge part of my life, I can't just be apathetic to this.
If they don't keep BW going, the term "ESPORTS" is fundamentally flawed and will never truly exist. You don't just "scrap" a true sport. True sports have one thing in common: great history. Proleague is a part of that enormous and invaluable history that belongs to gaming, and if it trashes BW, then we no longer have esports.
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
On April 16 2012 21:36 Fubi wrote: I don't get why these two games can't co-exists, just as how basketball and hockey co-exists, or how Street Fighter and Tekken scene co-exists. Why must they try to kill off BW instead of just letting the players choose whichever they want to play? This is pretty retarded move.
Clearly BW is no longer financially viable. I don't think they want to get rid of it either which is why they aren't doing a full sc2 switch.
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
Hope Kespa doesn't mess it up like it seems BW is awesome to watch. SC2 is awesome to watch. Both to detemine a better Team? Please no.
i'm fine with watching sc2, but it's not logical to watch a competition consist of two games played during alternate set.. everyone is already saying that SC2 is a completely different game yea?
just imagine watching sports tournament of badminton, but it isnt purely badminton, since every alternate sets will be tennis, and the winning country is determined by both sports.. seriously really?
On April 16 2012 16:21 McKTenor13 wrote: Excited! Can't wait to see the BW pros skill. I'll definitely tune into the half SC2 half BW proleague. I think this is gonna be awesome!
This is why we shouldn't let sc2-exclusive fans post in these threads. Most of them seem to glance over the title and believe in whatever they already had in mind.
It so sad to see the ignorancy of some of you guys. Why you call it BW? Because SC1 wasn't even close to BW. But yea bash the young SC2 and spread ur ignorancy across the world.
Hope Kespa doesn't mess it up like it seems BW is awesome to watch. SC2 is awesome to watch. Both to detemine a better Team? Please no.
Broodwar was released six months after SC1, so are you seriously trying to say something about it?
And besides, even if competitive SC1 was pretty impossible, why are trying to compare SC1 with SC2, as if SC2 is supposed to be fucking terrible (which it is) before it gets better?
All of these comments are really really counter intuitive.
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
BW is the chance of a real e-sport to exist. But maybe the door closes now.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
I am just saying BW is dying, and there is nothing you can do about it. Unless you are filthy rich and can throw millions of dollars at the scene. No "protest" or similar action will change the fact that BW is dead within a year.
On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote: I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future.
Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered.
Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
I am just saying BW is dying, and there is nothing you can do about it. Unless you are filthy rich and can throw millions of dollars at the scene. No "protest" or similar action will change the fact that BW is dead within a year.
Then just keep it in your fucking mouth and don't say it. All of us already are going through the painful process of losing the best game ever, why do you have to come in and just say it?
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
So what? I doubt that anyone fell in love with BW because "of the way it looks" or its graphics. It`s the gameplay that amazed all of us. But I guess that we all need to accept that we live in a time where it`s much more important how something looks than anything else. (same thing with music and movies).
On April 16 2012 21:53 Jongl0 wrote: Well, it's bound to happen sooner or later. I just hope that the PL and OSL this year aren't the last for BW.
I really,really don`t like this attitude,since it`s NOT bound to happen. Football exists for 150 years or something like that and it will exist forever probably,so there is no reason to say "Ok it was bound to happen anyway"...
Theres a minor difference between a real life sport and a computer game. Real life dosen't change its graphics and mechanics every 2 years, as far i'am concerned.
BW is the chance of a real e-sport to exist. But maybe the door closes now.
My point is, with each passing generation theres less and less player to not only try out BW but even hear of it. This is not the case in any sport that actually happens in real life.
And yes, i know Korea is a different and BW became close to a real sport, but as many other said here before, if its not profitable anymore, it will go away. If football would be completly waste of money, there wouldn't be such huge salaries and this many teams. Sadly, afterall money runs the world.
Thats why i said ealier, as long as you, me and others keep playing BW on iccup / fish / lans, ppl streaming, tournaments still happening, the game wont die.
EPT
