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On April 16 2012 19:12 CaptainCharisma wrote:
Reading through this thread I'm so glad I don't visit the BW Forum very often because most of these people seem to be complete retards.
How diverse, interesting and deep were SC1 strategies 21 months after release? Also consider that an expansion had already come out. SC1 has now had FOURTEEN years to develop. But it's going nowhere fast. Brood War isn't going to become anywhere near as big internationally as SC2 already is.
Reverse the games. Had SC2 as we know it come out in 1998, we would have 2 expansions and fourteen years of maturity of game knowledge and strategy. Most of us as children would have grown up with it being the number one RTS. Do you think a new RTS, even one as good as SC1, would instantly be comparable to SC2's depth of gameplay?
Think about how underdeveloped BW strats were in 2000. That's where we are right now with SC2.
BW is going nowhere. SC2 has massive growth potential. You do the math.
That "give it time" argument has been used since forever but nothing has changed much.
Before competitive BW, people did not know how to play RTS games. We had no idea of what was micro, macro, multitasking, harassment etc. Even until 2005 most BW did not even have a proper natural base !
When SC2 was released, maps sucked because Blizz never knew how to make maps, but at least they had naturals, thirds and there were a lot of foundations brought by BW.
We didn't even have replays ! I'm not even talking about VODs or Liquipedia or anything that helped develop the strategies and build orders exponentially quickly.
Nowadays we know how to play RTS properly, hell, most SC2 pros are BW or W3 ex-pros, why would we need to wait that long for SC2 to be good ?
edit : oh he was banned while I was replying. <3 TL Mods
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To go half and half or to switch altogether...
That is the question.
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Oh also my potentially last post in this thread but also keep in mind that the OP also states that "it is expected that lot of players will still retire once this transition takes place."
With this statement, it's not necessarily even 100% confirmed that the top-tier players like Flash/Bisu/Jaedong/Stork, etc. will even move on to SC2 but instead, choose to retire (maybe to go back to school?).
Just saying.
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On April 16 2012 19:17 unknownGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:12 Precipice wrote:On April 16 2012 19:06 unknownGamer wrote:On April 16 2012 19:02 Precipice wrote:On April 16 2012 18:55 unknownGamer wrote:On April 16 2012 18:50 Precipice wrote:On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote:
I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large". To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical. As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport. These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will. Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live. My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration. Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others. Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading. I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I will just shut up. At the exact moment that you have explained why gamers are shunned in certain circles you have failed to account for why, in other circles, they are not shunned. Again, my point is that, structurally and culturally, these games fulfill a role which is in no way incorrectly represented by calling them eSports. Further, why is it surprising that the savior incident caused a negative stigma? The issue is that just because something has been negatively stigmatized at one point or another does not necessarily translate into it not... being in some sense, a sport. The problem here is that, at the core of all your posts, is a belief that the term eSports is only employed as a technique of self validation. The reason this is flawed is that, for many of us, there is no validation that needs to take place. The games do not need to "prove themselves" in order to do what they do. All that I did in my first post was highlight the ways in which the nature of the game itself, the way it is played out, and the way it is presented to audiences is, for all intents and purposes, indicative of sports of the second modernity. To not call it a sport is tantamount to telling people that "google" can't be used as a verb. So if someone said, "Just google it," you would need to take 10 minutes out of your day to explain to them that what they are trying to say is, "Just access the internet through a terminal, proceed to any of a number of search engines like www.google.com and perform a search function using the relevant key words." Maybe you've got a point, but it's not one that actually performs any positive work. lol, I see you don't get my point. Using flamboyant words won't make you right when you are wrong. You are trying too hard to be nonchalant about this naming thing because you know its the truth. E-sports sounds mainstream. Pro-games do not. I will leave this thread since you and I obviously don't see each others points. Your point is sc2 is a sport, my point is sc2 is a game. So I can see the difference of our situation in society. Have a nice day.
You know that baseball is a game right? Basketball too and soccer and hockey, every single damn sport is a game. You're creating some obscure false dichotomy.
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The articles also mention that many progamers might just choose to retire rather than play SC2. It also happened (to a smaller extent) when Proleague got rid of 2v2 back in 2008.
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Been waiting for this to be officially announced for a while now, this is going to be amazing!
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On April 16 2012 19:32 LytR wrote:
Been waiting for this to be officially announced for a while now, this is going to be amazing!
Nothing's been announced. It's a rumor, and an excuse for yet another BW vs SC2 thread
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So half of proleague will consist of 2010/early 2011 quality SC2? >_<
I'll still watch, but I'm not really sure how pretty it will be.
I think it is smart of them to transition like this though if they are going to transition. Better to not jump straight into a whole new game. This way fans will have a much easier time adjusting to SC2.
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I might just quit watching if this happens. Sure I'll pop on TL to check on what happens now and then but if it comes down to a full switch then I'd just move on.
I truly hope that it does not happen...how sad that better graphics will overshadow a legendary game that stood the test of time.
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On April 16 2012 19:36 RavenLoud wrote:
I might just quit watching if this happens. Sure I'll pop on TL to check on what happens now and then but if it comes down to a full switch then I'd just move on.
I truly hope that it does not happen...how sad that better graphics will overshadow a legendary game that stood the test of time.
Yeah I doubt I'll be as interested, either. I'll probably just check the results on TL from time to time and that's about it.
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On April 16 2012 19:17 saynomore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 18:09 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote:
I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future. Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered. Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life.
Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
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On April 16 2012 19:14 the`postman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:06 unknownGamer wrote:On April 16 2012 19:02 Precipice wrote:On April 16 2012 18:55 unknownGamer wrote:On April 16 2012 18:50 Precipice wrote:On April 16 2012 18:37 unknownGamer wrote:
I don't get why people want to call it E-sports, its like people are trying to mainstream it to be something that is applicable to the norm. Why call it a sport? It just makes you trying hard to be something you are not. Why not be proud of the games you are playing and create a whole new genre, Even the term "gamer" is avoided by "e-sports" people because they don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living. Ridiculous. just call it "pro-gaming". Non-pretentious unlike "e-sports" and a signification that you are proud of who you are. A professional gamer.
Back on topic, if it will happen, it will happen. The use of the term does not signify what it, tautologically is, but instead, what we aim for it to be - the place we want it to fulfill. What is a sport? What do you actually gain by suggesting that eSports is not or cannot be one. Your flawed understanding of this issue causes you to critque those who "believe in eSports" as people "[that] don't want to be looked down upon by people who don't play games for a living." Many of us have been involved in this for over 10 years. Many of us are adults with fully established careers and peer groups. We do not need "affirmation" from the theoretical "public at large". To understand what we want you have to understand the nature of sports today. The growth of physical sports in the Western world occured at the exact moment that we saw such things as the culmination of the industrial revolution and progressively fewer places/cultures to carry imperialism out upon. That is, physical sports grew in popularity at the exact moment that we needed to imagine ourselves as warriors - there were no longer places to realistically *be* warriors anymore. In that time, work was done physically. Thus, the sports themselves were physical. As we now move into a second modernity the work that we do is progressively electronic and digital, and at the same time, we still need heroes. We still need warriors. We need people that we can look to who can remind us that all of us, deep down, innately, have the power and potential to do great and incredible things should the time or situation arise. I'll tell you why it's an eSport. These games are eSports because just as physical competitions used to provide inspiration and harbor potential in eras past, so too, now, we as people immersed in computer technology; we as people who take more enjoyment from the mental and dexterous accomplishment of the competitive Starcraft player, find a sense of meaning in what these people can do. It's a sport because in each match is contained the desperate, innate, and personal desire of life. We each as I: I in my quest to survive this world must fight, and if the foe does something I did not expect then the message cannot be that I die; the message is that in the face of unexpected or impossible circumstances I can overcome through creativity, dedication, effort, striving, and will. Starcraft is an eSport because at its very core it is the language which speaks best to us. And what does this language say? Live. My father can have his football, but he understands, too, that I have my Starcraft. This isn't about validation. This is about inspiration. Did you know, korea called it esports because they wanted to make it relevant to the mainstream? There was an article years ago in my country about why the big shots decided to call BW esports, its precisely because they want it to be accepted to the culture mainstream and not shun upon. The name "E-sports" have never been about all the dramatic things you said. Its because they wanted to be respected by others. Clearly you're not understanding the point that bw operates, at a core level, as a sport. It is doing the same things. Just because you think a sport requires a basketball hoop or running laps around the football field does not mean that *that* is what it is. Take a moment to define sports. You have completely failed to explain why Starcraft itself is not a sport. Whereas, by comparison, I have explained why eSports themselves, culturally, *are* the sport of the second modernity (fulfilling the same roles and functions). Just because you think I used hghi-faluting ideas that just ARENT WHAT ITS ABOUT really carries no value. If you'd like I can explain to you how even in archetypal construction eSports are acting out the things I described. The term eSports isn't misleading; it is fitting. If they termed it WORLD CLASS RACQUETBALL, that would be misleading. I live in korea and I will tell you something that no one tells you before okay? Gamers are shun in korea after that savior incident. I check onegamenet every once in a while ( cant do it now with work) and they call EVERY game esports. Even those mobile games because they want the society to accept them. I don't know what happens in america, but esports is a term that is thrown around in korea just to make it main stream,. if you can't accept that even from a first hand account then I think you need to live in korea and understand what happens when you mention esports. People will roll their eyes at you. I guarantee. Maybe in america there are communities, but people forget, outside communities, people aren't as accepting What is wrong with every game that is played competitively being called an e-sport? Is BW the only true e-sport in your mind?
well he said he lives in Korea, and believe it or not, broodwar there is really an iconic thing back then.. it's like, even their grandmother knows broodwar.. as a matter of fact, all my korean teachers who taught me before (at least 7) knows starcraft, and 2 even played them..
On April 16 2012 19:40 b0lt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:17 saynomore wrote:On April 16 2012 18:09 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 16 2012 18:01 figq wrote:
I'll refuse to believe this is happening, until (if) it actually happens. They still only discuss it as a possibility. For all we know, BW fans and the players may protest enough for BW leagues to remain active in the future. Hmmm, perhaps a massive fan protest might do something, but I'm not too confident in its effectiveness considering that MBC Game shutting down started with whispers of rumors floating around followed by massive fan protest, yet the station did end up shutting down despite all the protests and the statements of "nothing is final" being uttered. Yeah a "massive" protest with all the foreign BW fans. Literally only 100 people will sign up. Just face it BW is dead. I love BW, but sometimes you just have to get on with your life. Progamers should really move on to newer and better games. I don't see why people are wasting their time playing SC2 when league of legends is way more popular
yea, i always find it weird that people think BW gamers MUST transit only and only to SC2.. there are other games right?
edit: worse of all, why alternate games? it just doesnt make sense
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Wanna see how the Kespa vs current sc2 teams battle/destruction will be like with OGN and MLG combining.
That might be the only good thing to watch from now on
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On April 16 2012 19:36 RavenLoud wrote:
I might just quit watching if this happens. Sure I'll pop on TL to check on what happens now and then but if it comes down to a full switch then I'd just move on.
I truly hope that it does not happen...how sad that better graphics will overshadow a legendary game that stood the test of time.
The only good thing that might happen is SC2 fans watching some BW and actually understanding how good the game is, especially considering that the quality of games between the two are going to be as different as night and day.
But I agree. All this stuff is really just....eh. I'm already so inactive on TL and just hang around one thread these days.
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On April 16 2012 19:34 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2012 19:32 LytR wrote:
Been waiting for this to be officially announced for a while now, this is going to be amazing! Nothing's been announced. It's a rumor, and an excuse for yet another BW vs SC2 thread
It's far past the rumor stage at this point. We've had coaches and even players pretty much confirming they're practicing SC2 seriously alongside BW for some time now. Not to mention rumors are sort of how BW news has always worked anyway. I mean, look at all the other "rumors" we had from the BW scene. Rumors about teams disbanding, rumors about MBC Game closing shop, rumors about Team 8 forming, rumors about PL being split into two seasons, etc etc etc... Sometimes I feel that BW officials purposely leak these "rumors" to gauge community reaction, or better yet let all the fans get out their raging way before the "official" announcements so there's not as strong of a reaction when the time does come.
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I'm excited, though I feel bad for pure BW fans. I think they may feel slighted by this.
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The worst part still is mixed game proleague.
Why not just partner up with a current SC2 team and the tagteam with most points advance to the playoffs, but don't fucking mix sets...
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Well, I am at least excited to see how SC2 in Korea develops with this much skill and infrastructure behind it.
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I'm incredibly sad, yet excited, and because of that, sad again, now.
Incredibly sad because BW is slowly dying no matter what happens. It was and is THE game that created the terms "Pro Gaming" and "progamer" and actually put meaning behind them. Yeah I know Quake has an insanely high skill cap too, but it never got this popular that parents and middle aged people come and watch the games live.
I'm excited because even if I know the game is and the pro BW scene will cease to exist in one or two years at max, the players who made the game what it is now, from a rough unpolished stone to a shiny diamond, will probably move on to SC2.
This will probably breath some life in the korean SC2 scene aswell.
But I'm sad again, because the passion for competetive pro gaming has been revived in the "west" too, so everything is given to make history again, and create a worthy sequel for BW that'll last for another 10 years. But this time, Blizzard doesn't seem to want this. It's been talked to death already, but SC2 isn't suited for pro gaming at all. The design philosophy, the infrastructure, everything is so flawed it's not even funny.
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EPT
