EPTThe Korean dominance in recent events. What to do? - Page 9
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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Ireniicus
United Kingdom374 Posts
I also thoroughly enjoy watching and cheering on Nestea, MMA, MVP, MKP and DRG etc when they attend Foreign events. However there is a reason Huk, Naniwa and Stephano get the most views when they are playing either during Lan's or streaming ladder. It is not good for eSports that its utterly dominated by one country and after the Hotbid interview with David Ting it is clear changes are a foot to ensure more balance whilst safe guarding the participation of Super GM's from Code S. For eSports to grow it needs to expand Globally and for that we need more Stephano's, Huk's and Naniwa's to come out the wood work. I am hoping teams will continue to support and grow talent in NA and Europe becaue as has been said here, the best and most efficident way to fix this and it really does need fixing is to get the hell better. | ||
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svi
405 Posts
honestly, players even top players like white-ra aren't too skilled and it gets tiring to see stephano stomp him up for the 534th time in a row. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:26 FairForever wrote: Does the existence of the Chinese Basketball Association de-legitimize the NBA? Does the existence of Minor Hockey Leagues de-legitimize the NHL? Does the existence of Arena Football de-legitimize the NFL? Does the existence of the hundreds of English soccer leagues de-legitimize the Premier League? Dude, think before you post. What is SC2 compared to those sports? Where is the money for these lower tier leagues going to come from? Who is actually going to watch them? Maybe they should just make it so you have to live in US or EU to play in playhem. Then you and the OP can be happy. | ||
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Ryze
Canada234 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote: why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans? should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad. at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32. I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25884 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote: I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players. I was just mentioning that comparison with other, established and lucrative sports is a false one on a financial level, but I agree with everything else said. Even Flash pales in earning power with even the most average, run-of-the-mill golf pro. In most large sports, contractual certainty or in the case of tennis/golf, the generous and well-spread prize money means that you can afford to be an 'average' professional in those fields. You can enjoy fulfilling your passion but without being absolutely broke. In Starcraft you can't really afford to support yourself in the 'West' unless you are absolutely top-tier, which requires full-time play to the detriment of everything else. Perhaps yes, if you want to follow your dreams the sacrifice is worth it, but you can't really deny it IS a sacrifice. To that end you see top foreign players supplementing their income with coaching/streaming and other ways of generating income. It's this barrier that stops them really concentrating on playing the game, a barrier that the Korean team-house model largely alleviates. There is enough money in the foreign scene, supposedly to do what you're saying, and more should be put into infrastructure I am 100% in agreement, in fact I agree with your points in general, was just clarifying what I meant earlier. I like what Quantic have done with their partnership, no coincidence that two of the most consistently strong foreigners are now practicing in a Korean environment. Fnatic on the other hand just seem to be buying Korean talent to fly into events, but the benefits aren't trickling down to their foreign contingent (although it's early days yet). A final point is I don't view it as amount of practice, or indeed efficiency of practice alone that's separating the two scenes currently. The presence of dedicated coaches in Korea is something that just isn't aped in the foreign scene and is too frequently omitted from this discussion. | ||
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kinglemon
Germany199 Posts
emotion is always the key seller. and i do think we have a problem and i think a lot of people are way to harsh to the op. don't be so ignorant to his point. it is valid. but i think we could solve the "problem" with less "superstar" events and more normal ones. in soccer we have the very popular national leagues in europe and then we have the champions league where the best of the best of europe clash at each other. in sc we almost only got the champions league right now and it is damaging everything below and also the champions league itself, because it's just too much. champions league has to be something special. something happening once a year. in sc we have a world final with the best players almost 2 times a month. On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them?? so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players. This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. i watched some of the gathering this weekend and i had a lot more fun than with ipl. the semifinals grubby vs lucifron and thorzain vs bratok, those were some thrilling excellent games with a nice storyline and players a lot of demographics can connect with. if people want to see the best players we already got the gsl which also crowns a new champion way to often. but if people really want to see that kind of best of the best stuff we already got it. no need to make 20 tournaments with the same concept. people will get fed with it sooner or later. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:32 SupLilSon wrote: Dude, think before you post. What is SC2 compared to those sports? Where is the money for these lower tier leagues going to come from? Who is actually going to watch them? Maybe they should just make it so you have to live in US or EU to play in playhem. Then you and the OP can be happy. I agree. You haven't read any of my other posts. I'm saying if everyone acts in their best interests foreign SC2 will die. And because everyone will, foreign SC2 will die. | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote: I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no, there isn't enough money in the foreigner scene to do what you have described. I am going to list the current major teams in SC2 and whether or not they have a team house. North American Teams compLexity - No [Partnership with MVP, Trimaster present, Drewbie and Naniwa formely residents] Evil Geniuses - Yes [Also partnership with Slayers, no foreigners currently there] It's Gosu - No Quantic Gaming - No [Partnership with Startale, SaSe and Nani present, Destiny formely resident] Team Vile - No CheckSix Gaming - No Infinity Seven - No LighT eSports - No [Bootcamped in Kawaii's basement pre-MLG Columbus 2012] vVv Gaming- No European Teams Team Liquid - No [Partnership with OGS, Haypro, Jinro present, TLO, Ret formely residents] AbsoluteLegends - No [Partnership with ProS house, Naama former resident, house is moving to LoL] mousesports - No [They have a house for bootcamps IIRC] SK Gaming - No Team ALTERNATE - No mTw - No Team Acer - No Type Gaming - Yes [Two Koreans, one foreigner present, TT1 and Cloud also residents, unsure of status now] Millenium - Yes [Almost full roster present] Team Empire - No RoX.KIS - No [They did have one for bootcamps in BW IIRC] Dignitas - No Fnatic - Yes [Effectively another Korean teamhouse in Seoul, full of Koreans, ToD sole foreigner present] | ||
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Kergy
Peru2011 Posts
Like always, the only answer is: If you limit the number of participants per country, you sacrifice the quality of the games. SC2 lives today because of the korean/foreigner 'rivalry', it's not their fault that the latter have been sucking way too much in comparison lately. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:33 Ryze wrote: I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help. | ||
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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:37 SupLilSon wrote: LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help. Uhh yes it does. Having prize money earmarked for developing talent (players not at Stephano or Idra's level either) will encourage people to continue to develop their skills. Not saying it would happen, but it would be good if it did. | ||
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Juissi
Finland209 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:27 drag_ wrote: I think OP has a fair point. I've stopped really watching most starcraft because every tournament all the players I've heard of lose to Koreans, and I just don't have anybody to root for. Koreans may play better, but for me I don't know who to support from the vast number of players who are often inconsistent, offer little insight to their personalities in their interviews and have remarkably similar playstyles. I'm sure for hardcore fans who watch GSL everyday etc, this just sounds naive, but it's true for me. Supporting people by their nationality is probably quite arbitrary, but it happens in everything - I support England in football, when I admire the way Spain plays more, I support Arsenal because I live in London, but Barcelona or Man United are better teams. It's just hard to get behind random players for no real reason. I feel exactly the same way. U put it so well into words. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote: Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron. Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day? | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
Sometimes I just feel foreigners get too intimidated by Koreans, though I understand that players (in any sport) generally look worse when against a superior opponent, far too often I see very basic mistakes that were not forced errors, but simply nerve/choking issues. And the only way to solve confidence issues is to just practice as hard imo. Think about it, unless you believe Koreans to be genetically superior in starcraft, if you really trained as hard as they do - why would you not believe that you have a 50/50 shot? Of course I know you have to have the infrastructure of training such as teamhouses, but for instance, EG has an incredibly nice one, still they don't post particularly impressive results (the ones who do were generally already good prior, aside from Demuslim perhaps). In the end, its all about the dedication and drive, which most foreigners simply don't have unfortunately =( | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
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Tahona
United States252 Posts
I don't think this is a problem at all, I think the best should be winning and that's just how it is right now. | ||
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Ryze
Canada234 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:37 SupLilSon wrote: LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help. I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that. | ||
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SilentSC2
United States505 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:29 SupLilSon wrote: Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place. I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams). On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem. | ||
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