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On April 10 2012 08:18 Kraznaya wrote:
For all the people using Korean basketball as an example: who watches Korean basketball? How many good basketball players has Korea produced?
Koreans watch Korean basketball. And obviously it's successful because it's still ongoing and profitable.
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On April 10 2012 08:01 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 07:52 Ryze wrote:On April 10 2012 07:27 Xirroh wrote:
The real problem will be for foreign teams and their sponsors when their players can't make it out of LBR4 and get no coverage.
How will foreign teams be able to continue financially when they no longer even have a shot at qualifying for group play (as we saw with the IPL open bracket), and will never make it to a finals?
The idea that foreigners will just 'train harder' is unlikely. Only a few have even been able to come close to competing with the top Koreans now. If 10-12 years of BW is any sign, foreigners will be unlikely to compete at SC2 with them.
The problem for tournaments is that there is less fan connection to Korean players. There certainly is some, but enough to support 200,000 viewers over many years? I'm not sure. ^ This. Everybody is all about "ESPORTS ESPORTS" but esports I do not think will grow outside of Korea if the most important thing which is the gamers themselves cant consider it something that will provide for them to live a comfortable life. Foreign players are trying to work harder and trying to improve to compete with the Koreans but the problem is that because the Koreans have already been doing this for so long they are simply much better at the whole process of creating talent and maintaining that talent. Foreign players really do Invest much of their time into this and barely 1% of them get anything back for that time investment, once people realize this they also realize that with that amount of time they invest they could probably do anything else and make more money and have a lot less stress in their lives and that is the point where they quit or start to practice less... The solution obviously isn't to exclude Koreans from major events like MLG, IPL, NASL I think it would be to have leagues or tournaments where foreigners could compete against each other and not against Koreans, There they could be rewarded for their efforts and more foreign players could make money there would be more motivation among foreign players to compete and prepare for these events and I think that by itself would create a better quality of talent among foreign players that perhaps one day could be on par with the Koreans. At this point I cant even play in a Playhem daily where the top prize is 45 or 60 USD without having to defeat several code A or code S level Koreans to get there. Sure I could always get better and then possibly beat them but my belief is that they have a better overall practice model and practice environment so its not likely that I'm ever going to get better than them. Thank God someone realizes that there's an issue here. The mantra of saying "practice harder" is convenient but still ridiculous and will lead to the demise of the foreign scene. Simply put, there's no way around it. With Japanese baseball, Chinese Basketball, etc. there's always an appeal. Unfortunately, outside of a few select tournaments (eg. The Gathering), any tournament that doesn't bring in Koreans is not going to do well. As such, the only way to have sustainable prize pools is to have Koreans, and then foreigners are taken out of the picture. Essentially the foreigner scene is going to be dead within a couple of years, in my opinion, outside of maybe a couple of very strong teams.
When the foreign scene dies, then so be it. And when it does, it is not the fault of the Koreans. To strengthen your own national scene, there is a lot one can do. Support and hype small and mid scale tournaments on home soil, like the recent Texas Clash and ONOG. Promote and actively participate in CSL. Organize your own team to attend the collegiate league. Offer help, do voluntary work, do coverage or artistic work.
Attention brings sponsorship. Sponsorship allows growth. Growth makes it easier for rising talents and established players to focus on their training. The problem are not the Koreans but the viewer. You can help and raise awareness of your own scene. When the foreign scene dies, it's out of lack of interest. A personal choice to support the existing talent (i.e. VileIllusions impressive IPL run), or not. It is in your own hand. Awareness and being proactive, not protectionism.
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Some people think if non Koreans practiced 16 hours a day they'd win more. Imo, it's about the depth of players and also the fact many top foreigners aren't able to or don't want to practice in team houses. I think the benefit of team houses is about the organization and structure and quality of practice rather than raw practice time. It feels like a lot of foreigners don't want to treat the game like a job and more of a big passion rather than profession. Those two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but many people have the fear of losing their love for something once they do it for a living and not as an outlet for pure enjoyment.
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On April 10 2012 08:12 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 07:59 KaptenCulpa wrote:On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote:
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them. I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld. And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things.
I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
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Doesn't artificially altering the playing field so more foreigners can participate somewhat de-legitimize starcraft, since people who aren't necessarily the best are playing on equal terms with people who are considerably better than them, while people who are still better than the first group aren't participating period?
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On April 10 2012 08:11 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:09 dsousa wrote:On April 10 2012 08:02 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote:
hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean. That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone. Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful. No, 49 would be Korean and one would be Stephano. Are you serious? For the purposes of this argument it doesn't matter - please don't derail the thread.
My point is only that you underestimated the KR dominance. I was surprised that most of the foreign pros I spoke to at ipl felt they had no chance against anyone Korean. They literally consider them in a different league and are mentally defeated before the game even starts. I think Huk ,Nani, sase are around top 50......but its close.....there are a ton of amazing unknown kr players.
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On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 07:59 KaptenCulpa wrote:On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote:
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them. I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld. And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things. I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players.
No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair.
Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc.
Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
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I think your view of this issue is a little bit skewed. We had a lot of foreigner victories. Stephano made it really far, scarlett beat a korean player and almost took out Oz, Illusion took out 3 code S players. At the same time though, we had WAY more koreans at this event than we've ever had before. We had all of team MVP and all of team ST, in addition to all of the liquid, EG, SK, Fnatic, CoL korean players, and also the korean players who qualified through the qualifying tournaments. We just need to keep improving.
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The best should get to be the best and go to any tournament they please. Foreigners can win, they must practice harder. Would you really rather watch lower quality of play games?
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On April 10 2012 08:22 Comeh wrote:
Doesn't artificially altering the playing field so more foreigners can participate somewhat de-legitimize starcraft, since people who aren't necessarily the best are playing on equal terms with people who are considerably better than them, while people who are still better than the first group aren't participating period?
Does the existence of the Chinese Basketball Association de-legitimize the NBA?
Does the existence of Minor Hockey Leagues de-legitimize the NHL?
Does the existence of Arena Football de-legitimize the NFL?
Does the existence of the hundreds of English soccer leagues de-legitimize the Premier League?
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You can see the sheer effectiveness of the korean practice model just by looking at how much foreigners improve just by practicing in korea for short periods of time. The fact of the matter is they have a superior practice environment and mentality, and while some foreigners with a ton of natural skill (stephano and nani come to mind especially) can compete even with their subpar practice, the same can't be said for the other 99%. Until foreigners begin to practice like the koreans, they will not be able to really compete, and the koreans shouldn't be punished for having a superior system in place.
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So glad we finally got a thread on this topic. There are so many fresh arguments being brought up here, really makes me wanna join in the debate.
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On April 10 2012 08:23 dsousa wrote:
My point is only that you underestimated the KR dominance. I was surprised that most of the foreign pros I spoke to at ipl felt they had no chance against anyone Korean. They literally consider them in a different league and are mentally defeated before the game even starts. I think Huk ,Nani, sase are around top 50......but its close.....there are a ton of amazing unknown kr players.
Ill quote the IPL LiveU stream, when Lani was with TT1, Dimaga, ToD
Lani asked about their results etc, TT1 was like "we will get the koreans next time"
Lani was taking twitter questions one of the questions was "TT1, do you really believe what you said about foreigners getting the koreans next time?"
TT1: "No lol theyre too good"
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I think OP has a fair point. I've stopped really watching most starcraft because every tournament all the players I've heard of lose to Koreans, and I just don't have anybody to root for. Koreans may play better, but for me I don't know who to support from the vast number of players who are often inconsistent, offer little insight to their personalities in their interviews and have remarkably similar playstyles. I'm sure for hardcore fans who watch GSL everyday etc, this just sounds naive, but it's true for me. Supporting people by their nationality is probably quite arbitrary, but it happens in everything - I support England in football, when I admire the way Spain plays more, I support Arsenal because I live in London, but Barcelona or Man United are better teams. It's just hard to get behind random players for no real reason.
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I'm so so sick of these threads, every event or every week they pop up. Do they never end >_>
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why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32.
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On April 10 2012 08:26 Varth wrote:
You can see the sheer effectiveness of the korean practice model just by looking at how much foreigners improve just by practicing in korea for short periods of time. The fact of the matter is they have a superior practice environment and mentality, and while some foreigners with a ton of natural skill (stephano and nani come to mind especially) can compete even with their subpar practice, the same can't be said for the other 99%. Until foreigners begin to practice like the koreans, they will not be able to really compete, and the koreans shouldn't be punished for having a superior system in place.
Okay, I agree.
So who's footing the bill to have these practice houses in North America and Europe? Who's paying to fly in all the best players into one location to practice together? Who's paying for their living expenses, food, etc?
No one's blaming the Koreans - what they do is great. But it is unrealistic to expect Foreigners to be able to do it. Teams like RGN have tried already and failed.
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On April 10 2012 08:24 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 07:59 KaptenCulpa wrote:On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote:
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them. I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld. And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things. I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players. No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair. Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc. Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene.
Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place.
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I do not know what to do about this, but I agree in general that it is a problem. Probably the only real solution is for foreign players to be better at the game, as other posters have mentioned, but I don't know how reasonable this is, given the mecca that is Korea.
If I want to watch the best Koreans compete, I would (and do) watch the GSL, and love every minute of it.
Whenever I watch an international tournament like the IPL, I get excited for the games that pit players from different countries together, but that once the inevitable Korean dominance emerges, I am less engaged.
I think for me it is about expectations. When I watch the IPL I expect to see a diverse set of games, and am disappointed if it becomes GSL west.
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EPT
