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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 10 2012 07:47 sAsImre wrote: We're not forced to import dumb rules from other sports tho You may think its dumb but there are financial reasons and cultural reasons they do limit foriegners. SC2 will die without foriegner participation. Even GOM knows that with thier seeds and such they give to spread beyond Korea. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:06 mastergriggy wrote: This is a much better argument than what the original post said. But it seems like it is the same argument that is always made: if a foreigner wants to be as good as a Korean top pro, they need to practice as much. Financially, they have to decide and figure out early on if they want to be strained for money (if they don't make it I mean) and are willing put the work in. I understand your point, but saying this is essentially going to scare off any kind of potential foreigner. I really think having developmental leagues with up and coming talent (not limiting by nationality, but maybe by performance) would benefit the scene. Potentially players who have been in Code A or S, or have finished top X at MLG/IPL/etc. would be barred from competing. The problem is no one would want to run such a league as it wouldn't be as profitable (Nash Equilibrium). But it would be good in the long run. | ||
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Ryze
Canada234 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:01 HorsemasterK wrote: Its not like the Korean players are given large salaries to compensate them for the time they put in........ You are correct, however in Korean teams its not uncommon for some amount of the prize winnings of players like Nestea MVP MMA MC, to be given to the team so that the rest of the team may live comfortably and the team house can be maintained. Even if some of the less talented players on those teams don't make top GSL, KSL, ESV finishes they still do just as much work to help the players that do go that far to prepare. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:09 dsousa wrote: No, 49 would be Korean and one would be Stephano. Are you serious? For the purposes of this argument it doesn't matter - please don't derail the thread. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23783 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote: And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
Or move all the koreans over here. That'd be interesting... | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
My guess is the talent exists, but they just don't take the game seriously. I'm not talking about pros who don't practice enough, but just people that are diamond playing only a few games a week or so. There has to be some of them with equal talent to the Koreans. It's actually hard to see one's talent playing only a few games, there are many players that benefit a lot from 'grinding', and you never get a chance to see your skill potential with just playing a few games now and then on instinct. I think we do need to keep foreign talent relevant. European players being so successful in Warcraft 3 is one of the reasons they're quite good at SC2 nowadays. Grubby's success probably inspired lots of people to start playing RTS games (I know this because I was always impressed reading interviews with him in our newspapers -- media do take occasional interest in e-sports) I also think you can't have a relevant foreign scene that can be taken seriously by newcomers if in a premiere tournament like IPL, there are 3 foreigners in the top 20. (with Idra and White-Ra going 0-4 in groups) I think the MLG Arena qualifiers have the right idea. Regional qualifiers are wonderful for this. Everyone has a chance to sign up and try to qualify to get to play at the second-most important tournament for SC2, yet you still ensure that at least 8 top Koreans have a chance to raise the skill level and legitimacy of the event. It wouldn't work if it was like Brood War and WCG, where Koreans were so much better it was stupid, but top foreigners can occasionally take games still, so it can work out. IPL was different because the bracket was so tough and a lot of the best foreigners were missing, so the open bracket was like some insane gauntlet. I mean, TSL1/2 had a no Korean policy and those tournaments did a lot for the foreign scene. You can't just tell the top 10 USA players that: "you're too bad compared to the Koreans, they're going to take your spot" when being top 10 in the USA should be a really big accomplishment. Though with excluding Koreans next thing you'll get them joining foreign teams and moving to the USA, like Chinese players do in pingpong and such. On April 10 2012 07:47 sAsImre wrote: We're not forced to import dumb rules from other sports tho I don't think those rules are dumb. I support a local football club and I dislike they have a dozen random players from Eastern Europe, South-America etc. that don't speak Dutch and will only play here for two years, developing, and then get sold off to some foreign team. It makes me lose some emotional connection to the team compared to them having players that originate from the same city as me. I don't care too much, I suppose, but it does play a role. Compare with SC2: a lot of people find it fun to cheer for or against IdrA, which they wouldn't have been able to if he was just some Korean. Being elitist and going on about: "only best play matters" is silly, having people to relate to and cheer for helps one get an emotional connection to the sport, which is what we all want. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
Maybe instead of blaming and punishing the players who actually take Starcraft seriously prop the up bottom instead. Instead of banning Koreans from big events create a minor leagues that focuses on improving the play of the NA/EU scene. It also doesn't help much that a large chuck of EU players insist on never traveling to events outside of the European tournaments. | ||
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marconi
Croatia220 Posts
learn what it means son :D | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:12 goiflin wrote: I don't like the idea that tournaments being dominated by koreans is mutually exclusive to esports getting bigger, and thus, we need to ban koreans. Why not just get the infastructure to support foreign players better? You're right, having the infrastructure here would help alleviate the issue. Now who's paying to put that infrastructure here? No one's dumb enough to do that. | ||
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Ryze
Canada234 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:03 SupLilSon wrote: All of Complexity money going to the Koreans? I am not speaking for just myself but foreign players that I know on other teams like Vile and ItsGoSu. And No. | ||
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Klonere
Ireland4123 Posts
I think we're fucked. | ||
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goiflin
Canada1218 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:14 FairForever wrote: You're right, having the infrastructure here would help alleviate the issue. Now who's paying to put that infrastructure here? No one's dumb enough to do that. Hey now, I just said what we SHOULD do. I didn't say I knew how it could happen! | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:10 FairForever wrote: I understand your point, but saying this is essentially going to scare off any kind of potential foreigner. I really think having developmental leagues with up and coming talent (not limiting by nationality, but maybe by performance) would benefit the scene. Potentially players who have been in Code A or S, or have finished top X at MLG/IPL/etc. would be barred from competing. The problem is no one would want to run such a league as it wouldn't be as profitable (Nash Equilibrium). But it would be good in the long run. Well no, this would be bad. Then GSL Champions would be barred from MLG/IPL then? Can you imagine what this does to the hype? Especially when you highlight the player's achievements...there is a clearly defined underdog against a freaking GSL Champion. Seriously if this doesn't make for a David vs Goliath story I don't know what else would. We can't be cutting out potential success stories out of the equation...if some no-name suddenly takes out Nestea, MMA, MC, etc, dude that's an enormous story right there for the person. It changes someone overnight from a no-name to a "name-brand" player. | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:15 gillon wrote: Stop dividing them as a separate entity. Stop with the mindset of 'us versus them'. See them simply as really great players and appreciate them as such. If a foreign player does really well, he's also just that: a really great players. If you just learn to appreciate players for their skill and gameplay rather then whether or not they're from outside of korea you'll be able to appreciate the games that the SC2 scene will bring no matter what happens. Okay, great. Now the foreign scene dies. Don't know where you're going with this. You can't ask for every spectator's attitude to change, you need to cater your product to your consumers. | ||
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:16 D_K_night wrote: Well no, this would be bad. Then GSL Champions would be barred from MLG/IPL then? Can you imagine what this does to the hype? Especially when you highlight the player's achievements...there is a clearly defined underdog against a freaking GSL Champion. Seriously if this doesn't make for a David vs Goliath story I don't know what else would. We can't be cutting out potential success stories out of the equation...if some no-name suddenly takes out Nestea, MMA, MC, etc, dude that's an enormous story right there for the person. It changes someone overnight from a no-name to a "name-brand" player. I said a developmental tournament, not MLG/IPL -_- Also I never said this was good for any one organization, but if you want organic long-term growth in the business you have to take radical steps. | ||
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seansye
United States1722 Posts
It's simple. Foreigners just need to get better. | ||
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KaptenCulpa
Sweden29 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote: And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. Not saying any country should be banned im just saying that a format where each country only should send there best players and not the b, c, and d team too just cause they are better then the other countries best players. In reality 45 of the 50 best players are probably from korea. I think its bad for sc2 as an e-sport if our big international competitions have that compesition, however fair it might be to individual players. | ||
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