On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
On April 10 2012 07:27 Xirroh wrote: The real problem will be for foreign teams and their sponsors when their players can't make it out of LBR4 and get no coverage.
How will foreign teams be able to continue financially when they no longer even have a shot at qualifying for group play (as we saw with the IPL open bracket), and will never make it to a finals?
The idea that foreigners will just 'train harder' is unlikely. Only a few have even been able to come close to competing with the top Koreans now. If 10-12 years of BW is any sign, foreigners will be unlikely to compete at SC2 with them.
The problem for tournaments is that there is less fan connection to Korean players. There certainly is some, but enough to support 200,000 viewers over many years? I'm not sure.
^ This.
Everybody is all about "ESPORTS ESPORTS" but esports I do not think will grow outside of Korea if the most important thing which is the gamers themselves cant consider it something that will provide for them to live a comfortable life.
Foreign players are trying to work harder and trying to improve to compete with the Koreans but the problem is that because the Koreans have already been doing this for so long they are simply much better at the whole process of creating talent and maintaining that talent.
Foreign players really do Invest much of their time into this and barely 1% of them get anything back for that time investment, once people realize this they also realize that with that amount of time they invest they could probably do anything else and make more money and have a lot less stress in their lives and that is the point where they quit or start to practice less...
The solution obviously isn't to exclude Koreans from major events like MLG, IPL, NASL I think it would be to have leagues or tournaments where foreigners could compete against each other and not against Koreans, There they could be rewarded for their efforts and more foreign players could make money there would be more motivation among foreign players to compete and prepare for these events and I think that by itself would create a better quality of talent among foreign players that perhaps one day could be on par with the Koreans.
At this point I cant even play in a Playhem daily where the top prize is 45 or 60 USD without having to defeat several code A or code S level Koreans to get there. Sure I could always get better and then possibly beat them but my belief is that they have a better overall practice model and practice environment so its not likely that I'm ever going to get better than them.
Thank God someone realizes that there's an issue here. The mantra of saying "practice harder" is convenient but still ridiculous and will lead to the demise of the foreign scene.
Simply put, there's no way around it. With Japanese baseball, Chinese Basketball, etc. there's always an appeal. Unfortunately, outside of a few select tournaments (eg. The Gathering), any tournament that doesn't bring in Koreans is not going to do well. As such, the only way to have sustainable prize pools is to have Koreans, and then foreigners are taken out of the picture.
Essentially the foreigner scene is going to be dead within a couple of years, in my opinion, outside of maybe a couple of very strong teams.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
Its not like the Korean players are given large salaries to compensate them for the time they put in........
And, the dominance you're seeing isn't because it's recent. It's because they're sending enough players that Foreigners can't get to the finals from lucky format.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
On April 10 2012 07:44 Klonere wrote: I think a better question is: Are Viewing Figures going to suffer because of Korean domination?
I have certainly seen a lot of people saying that they just auto leave if a tourney only has Koreans in it
That is a genuine concern as well. Though it may be the antithetical viewpoint to many posters on here, E-sports is still a growth industry and has commercial obligations. If Korean dominance has a noticeable impact on viewing figures this may come into the thinking of tournament organisers.
Just to clarify, I personally don't mind the Koreans dominating tournaments, and indeed the criticism that they 'lack personality' is exposed as false more and more with the increased publicity that they are getting in the foreign scene. However at a pragmatic level IF viewing figures are dropping off perhaps organisers will start to approach things differently, at the very least perhaps not pay quite so much of their expenses?
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
On April 10 2012 07:52 Kamikiri wrote: I rather watch koreans than foreigners honestly, foreigners are garbage compared to koreans and i only want to watch the best.
Oh you have a tournament for foreigners only? Looks like I won't watch, or you don't let koreans come in favor of bad foreigners I won't watch. Its not the koreans fault that foreigners are generally lazy, if all the foreigners had work ethics like Idra, Naniwa, Huk etc etc they would be dominating.
Considering the amount of financial support they receive from their teams, It's very easy to have a work ethic like theirs.
Its not like the Korean players are given large salaries to compensate them for the time they put in........
Huge difference.
Idra, HuK, etc. are given large salaries and are fine.
Players from Vile, ItsGosu, etc. probably not so much.
The disparity is huge.
In Korea, you only get prize money if you're good, but at least you have a home and food, even if you're not MVP or MKP. It's not profitable unless you're good but it is sustainable.
Ask a foreigner to train for 10 hours a day and he's going to go broke unless he is one of the lucky few.
WCG has restrictions on national representatives because it's a tournament where NATIONS compete against each other. There's a tally for the amount of wins each nation racks up. However, it's stupid to have such restrictions for individual tournaments where nationality does not affect the scoring. In such cases, you go by the best players/seeding regardless of where the players are from.
On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote: so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate.
Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them.
I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld.
And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
This is a much better argument than what the original post said. But it seems like it is the same argument that is always made: if a foreigner wants to be as good as a Korean top pro, they need to practice as much. Financially, they have to decide and figure out early on if they want to be strained for money (if they don't make it I mean) and are willing put the work in.
Eh some people will never learn why koreans are the best at BW , Sc2 ... They are PRO PLAYERS !! Pro , they only play game , and dont do anything else..just plays.. Most of foreigners are SEMI PRO players..., they have school , studies.. work etc. only like 10% of foreigners , or even less , are full time pro players.. E-sport still must grown in EU / NA
On April 10 2012 07:11 Champloo wrote: Yep, I too didn't really like this IPL. Way too many Koreans, so I quickly lost and didn't really care who wins it. The problem was IPL paying trips for so many Koreans and European teams would have to send their players there on their own, which they didn't do, because there were 3 offline events going on at the same time in Europe.
David Ting already admitted his fault and said for IPL 5 there will be regional qualifiers so the regions in championship bracket will be more balanced.
I don't even understand what this means, or how you can actually like watching sub par players playing this game. Do you like minor league baseball more than the majors.?
This whole idea of excluding Koreas because of their skill is really pathetic. People tried to hide behind this veil excuses of "fostering national talent" but it's really nothing more than blind nationalism and jealousy. They are better than anyone in the world, and some people just can't handle that it seems.
Tell your pros to just get better
But that's the problem, they don't have the same kind of infrastructure in place that the Koreans do. The Koreans feed off of each other's strats, they are all friends with each other, and there's just all kinds of information passed between each other that the foreigners wouldn't be privy to.
Right now there needs to be some kind of widespread collaboration, I don't know, I'll just call it "Operation Korea"(guys please, it's JUST AN EXAMPLE), where all the big foreigners just huddle together, plan a method of attack, study their foes judiciously and operate strategies custom-tailored to beat said foe. If this is not already in action(I wouldn't know), then this needs to happen somehow, somewhere. The attitude needs to be shifted towards a more "win or I don't eat" one.
On April 10 2012 08:05 MayorITC wrote: WCG has restrictions on national representatives because it's a tournament where NATIONS compete against each other. There's a tally for the amount of wins each nation racks up. However, it's stupid to have such restrictions for individual tournaments where nationality does not affect the scoring. In such cases, you go by the best players/seeding regardless of where the players are from.
No one's saying for the GSL (considered the PREMIER tournament) to have restrictions.
Here's the problem.
When you look at a traditional sports model, no one is playing in more than one league (MAYBE two with soccer transfers and whatnot). So you don't need restrictions.
The best players play in the Premier League/La Liga/etc., while the other leagues are reserved for worse players, regardless of nationality.
With SC this only happens in Code S and Code A. You can play in both Code S and MLG. And Dreamhack. And IPL.
And that's where the problem arises - essentially, a small group of individuals dominate a large number of tournaments.
Not saying there's an easy fix, but some of the opinions on here clearly lack understanding.
On April 10 2012 07:10 Hrrrrm wrote: Blame the "pro's" that can't be bothered to practice as hard or as seriously as the Koreans. Can you imagine if Basketball players were asking for Handicaps against Jordan back in the day because he was "too good"? Or Hockey players against Gretzky? They'd get laughed straight out of the sport.
Toughen up and get better or don't bother trying.
You're an idiot, you don't run with 1000 USA teams in the world cup, you run with 1. That was his point. A single player is not a team.
On April 10 2012 08:01 mastergriggy wrote: hmmm...What to do...what to do? How about we stop trying to impede starcraft by suggesting banning people better than us?
/thread
No one's saying to ban them - simply put, if you took the top 50 players in the world I'd bet that 40 - 45 of them would be Korean.
That's an issue because essentially, as foreign players find they cannot have a sustainable career out of SC2 (unless you're one of those 5 players, or you are a personality a la Destiny or InControl), they're going to leave. And then the foreigner scene is gone.
Easy to say "work harder" - I don't think it's practical or helpful.
EPT
