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On April 10 2012 08:53 tranmillitary wrote:
Starcraft is not different than the nba. NBA is dominated badly by the USA. It is one of the most popular sports in the world and Lebron/jordan/kobe/wade dominate. Maybe instead of trying to make excuses for foreigners, why not push them to be better? Idra/huk/stephano/white-ra/dimaga they all play as much as any korean. Maru is 14 or 15 and is already better than 99 percent of the pro-foreign players. I'm pretty sure they're millions and millions of 14/15 year olds in europe and north america who play SC as much as maru.
Just maybe, it's natural talent? Some people just have it. Instead of making excuses, why not just embrace it? I support Huk as much as any canadian, but he's not as good as the top koreans. HE WON AT MLG orlando. Where was this thread when he won the MLG over a bunch of Code S koreans? Nani beat nestea ... twice in the same tourney.
I would watch Kobe vs lebron any day of the week over dirk vs pau gasol. Ask yourself this question, if you put up 100 000 dollars of your own money, u would want TT1 and incontrol to play in the round robin over Nestea and MKP? No one is gonna pay money to watch TT1 or incontrol play a close game. People will pay just to watch Nestea or MKP.
Take some business courses people. It's easy as cash flow/stability.
The NBA is dominated by Americans, but then there are smaller leagues (Euro Basketball isn't small) that precludes participation from those playing in the NBA.
Smaller prize pools, smaller costs, smaller talent. How do you think these leagues operate?
Not saying it would be profitable in SC2 (hint: it wouldn't, at least on a standalone basis) but it would be the right thing to do.
Don't know what this has to do with cash flow as much as profitability though.
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On April 10 2012 08:40 Juissi wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2012 08:27 drag_ wrote:
I think OP has a fair point. I've stopped really watching most starcraft because every tournament all the players I've heard of lose to Koreans, and I just don't have anybody to root for. Koreans may play better, but for me I don't know who to support from the vast number of players who are often inconsistent, offer little insight to their personalities in their interviews and have remarkably similar playstyles. I'm sure for hardcore fans who watch GSL everyday etc, this just sounds naive, but it's true for me. Supporting people by their nationality is probably quite arbitrary, but it happens in everything - I support England in football, when I admire the way Spain plays more, I support Arsenal because I live in London, but Barcelona or Man United are better teams. It's just hard to get behind random players for no real reason. I feel exactly the same way. U put it so well into words.
MarineKingPrime has amazing skills and is very entertaining to watch... I now support him. What more is there to it? Its hard to get behind random players for no reason? No reason would be because of location, you support the player for no reason other than something totally irrelevant to Starcraft.. An actual reason would be because you like there play.
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On April 10 2012 08:48 svi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:43 SilentSC2 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:29 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:24 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 07:59 KaptenCulpa wrote:On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote:
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them. I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld. And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things. I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players. No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair. Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc. Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene. Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place. I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams). On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem. if you look at some foreigner teamhouses (EG), you'll see what a joke it is. players like incontrol can't even beat players who don't play full time, despite being in a gaming house for over half a year. gathering a bunch of trash players won't make them good, and foreign managers understand that.
That is of also a factor. Players like Incontrol, Hayder (Haypro), Jinro may have been strong BroodWar players. A-, maybe even A or A+. But that means there were still a lot of Korean B-teamers/practise partners better than them. So you've got mediocre players who train hard but are just limited skillwise.
i think Huk is a great exmaple of what it takes to be able to compete with Koreans, talent (top 3 Control) and dedication.
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Personally I don`t care which country the "contestants" come from. This isn`t the olympics.
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On April 10 2012 07:05 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
is there seriously a thread about this? Why not just ban Korea all together... No, the only thing that we can do is get better and dominate Korea, not restrict the amount of players they can send off to compete in our tournaments. this is just stupid...
It is becos of international tournaments that foreign teams are picking up Korean players anyway.
This is going to be off topic, but I need to get this off my chest. Ms Lavigne, I believe you are one of the most underrated artists of this era, with some of the most groundbreaking music in the pop-genre of many, many years. Thank you for contribution to the entertainment industry, and know, that you will never be forgotten.
That is all.
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On April 10 2012 07:06 yawnoC wrote:
Foreigners just need to work harder and stop making excuses. End of story.
Do really foreigner exist that make excuses about this issue?
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
On April 10 2012 08:54 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:46 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:45 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:41 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote:
Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron. Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day? Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible. Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable. Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies. I know that's okay with you, but that's not okay with a lot of people, and SC2 as a whole will suffer if that happens. There's a reason why GOM keeps inviting foreigners to play in Code A and S even if most of them won't win a single game, let alone a match. If all organizations thought like you did then no developing country would work to improve any of their sports teams, because they'll never be as successful as the big names anyway. There is so much more money in the sports you are talking about as well as widespread support from the general population that any comparison is faulty. Aside from that, the best players go to whatever country has the best competition. American sports are filled with foreigners who were good enough to get the opportunity to play in the best league. Doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them. SC2 is the same. Nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc. should not apply, only skill and results.
They DO apply though. I'm something of a cosmopolitan so I agree that they, in a just world shouldn't be a factor but even judging from this thread there have been a sizeable minority of people who claim to switch off their streams when the foreigners are out.
E-sports is an industry that thus far built upon sponsorship which I would imagine is dictated by business decisions being made regarding the visibility of the brands involved.
If viewing figures tail off due to Korean dominance, it could conceivably harm the industry as a whole. Yes I'm all for meritocracy, but not to the detriment of the death of a vibrant scene so it's definitely an issue that should be discussed without a retreat into the oft-repeated 'I just want to see the best games.'
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On April 10 2012 08:54 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:46 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:45 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:41 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote:
Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron. Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day? Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible. Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable. Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies. I know that's okay with you, but that's not okay with a lot of people, and SC2 as a whole will suffer if that happens. There's a reason why GOM keeps inviting foreigners to play in Code A and S even if most of them won't win a single game, let alone a match. If all organizations thought like you did then no developing country would work to improve any of their sports teams, because they'll never be as successful as the big names anyway. There is so much more money in the sports you are talking about as well as widespread support from the general population that any comparison is faulty. Aside from that, the best players go to whatever country has the best competition. American sports are filled with foreigners who were good enough to get the opportunity to play in the best league. Doesn't stop anyone from enjoying them. SC2 is the same. Nationality, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, etc. should not apply, only skill and results.
I agree they should not apply, but they do. There's a reason why people have nationalistic pride. Trying to draw in new fans while only offering Korean players isn't exactly the right way to do it. Americans will be more inclined to follow Idra than Nestea, if they're new to the game.
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Honestly, the OP is not really wrong here in that it is probably in the best interest of the SC2 E-sports scene to include some more stringent regional qualifiers similar to what UEFA does for the champions league. One of the biggest draws of these international competitions, is that they are in fact, international.
I don't see what is wrong with being a fan of players whom are from our country and whom we can communicate better with over most of the Korean players. This sentiment is relevant in every professional sport in the world. Sure, I love seeing the best games possible, I think we all do, but first and foremost, we like to see our favorite players compete. For example, sure I can admire and enjoy FC Barcelona's play but if I had to choose between watching them or my hometown club, Feyenoord, I would choose Feyenoord 100% of the time.
I was less interested in IPL4 because many of my favorite European players didn't compete in anything except the first few rounds of the open bracket. Should they be practicing harder and more efficiently? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that i'd still rather watch them play then two mechanically excellent code A Koreans whom I know little about. If skill was the dominating factor in who we choose to be fans of then we wouldn't be fans at all. I suspect IGNProleague knows this however and do just what i've suggested in this post, limit qualifiers to region so that a more diverse group of players will compete at IPL5, in turn, drawing in a larger number of viewers. It's good for E-sports.
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On April 10 2012 08:56 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:48 svi wrote:On April 10 2012 08:43 SilentSC2 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:29 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:24 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 07:59 KaptenCulpa wrote:On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote:
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them. I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld. And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things. I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players. No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair. Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc. Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene. Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place. I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams). On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem. if you look at some foreigner teamhouses (EG), you'll see what a joke it is. players like incontrol can't even beat players who don't play full time, despite being in a gaming house for over half a year. gathering a bunch of trash players won't make them good, and foreign managers understand that. That is of also a factor. Players like Incontrol, Hayder (Haypro), Jinro may have been strong BroodWar players. A-, maybe even A or A+. But that means there were still a lot of Korean B-teamers/practise partners better than them. So you've got mediocre players who train hard but are just limited skillwise. i think Huk is a great exmaple of what it takes to be able to compete with Koreans, talent (top 3 Control) and dedication.
Unless you think Koreans are just naturally genetically better at the game, there are a whole crapload of potential foreigners out there who could be as good if not better. The infrastructure just isn't in place for them to succeed.
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Has anyone ever wondered why the GSL has seeds for foreigner players? Think about it.
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On April 10 2012 09:00 NinjaTrout wrote:
Has anyone ever wondered why the GSL has seeds for foreigner players? Think about it.
They're helpful to GOM to attract foreign viewers, but do little to boost the foreign scene. Anyone getting these seeds are already at the top of the foreigner scene and don't need help to be able to maintain a career (at least for awhile) in SC2.
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On April 10 2012 08:43 Ryze wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:37 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:33 Ryze wrote:On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote:
why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32. I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help. I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that.
Then what was your point? How many sc2 pros have a part time job on the side?
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Northern Ireland26480 Posts
On April 10 2012 09:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:43 Ryze wrote:On April 10 2012 08:37 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:33 Ryze wrote:On April 10 2012 08:27 svi wrote:
why would anyone care about foreigners doing well in a tournament with minimal koreans?
should we boot koreans out of mlg so incontrol can get top 4 again? everyone would realize that the competition is a joke, and winning the tournament still makes you bad.
at least with koreans, people like scarlett are being recognized even if they don't get top 32. I think you need to re-read my post, I said excluding the Koreans from MLG is NOT the solution Also even if scarlet's name is now recognized, she still went home with 0 dollars. At the end of the day how long can someone justify not making any money while spending just as much time on this as they would working a full time job LOL Scarlett wasn't even a pro and she outperformed most of the foreign "pros". If foreign teams don't have money to support their players, or just spend it on Korean players instead of supporting their foreign players, as you are suggesting, that is an entirely different problem that the OP plan does nothing to help. I haven't said anything about foreign teams supporting Koreans over their players I don't know why you keep mentioning that. Then what was your point? How many sc2 pros have a part time job on the side?
Quite a lot if you count coaching/casting/streaming as a separate activity from actually playing the game fulltime with high-quality practice partners a la Korean prohouses.
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First issue is the effort, how much foreigners put in versus koreans. Second issue is how effective the training is for koreans vs. foreigners, such as Korea uses a one size fits all while foreigners tend to have different systems that work for them ala stephano. Third is koreans working together collectively to solve problems. According to naniwa, koreans will sometimes work together to figure out the ins and outs of a build and then practice it to all hell, he also claims that koreans have 10ish practice partners for each race and they share replays. to my knowledge most foreigner teams keep to themselves and have at most 3 of each race which makes keeping to yourself or your friends strictly... kinda tough.
I think it's more of a practice style thing though. Stephano has shown repeatedly that he can compete with the top korean players, he doesn't live in korea, he practices how he likes to, and to my knowledge he doesn't have korean training partners..
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On April 10 2012 08:46 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:45 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:41 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:39 Swwww wrote:
Maybe when the western pro gamers stop bragging about how little they practise and quit everything (including secondary education) to devote themselves to playing starcraft we will see a balanced scene. Until then, the Korean players will dominate. This is not a bad thing and anyone who says Korean domination of esports is in fact a bad thing is just a moron. Because we all just have money flowing out of our pockets, none of us have to pay expenditures out of pocket while trying to practice 10 hours a day? Because we all are forced to play SC2 as a full time job instead of just going to school and making a living like most other people... please. If it's not feasible, it's not feasible. Limiting Koreans so that foreigners can fight for the scraps of the prize pool is ridiculous. You think that money is going to buy team houses and trips to other countries and food? No sports team relies solely on winnings... that's just not sustainable. Okay, fine. So the foreigner scene dies. I know that's okay with you
It sort of is for me. One of the big reasons people were so hyped for SC2 over BW (despite the latter being IMVHO a better game) was that we would be free of the Korean stranglehold, the foreigners could compete etc etc. I'm quite fine with that illusion being put to rest. Not that it will make people play BW again, and not that I ever stopped, but I don't mind seeing reality hit. I just don't like "newer==better". I still play UT99 and prefer it to CoD for instance 
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Theres not much to do except to put just as much time into the game like the Koreans do. They practice ALOT and understand the mechanics alot better then foreigners so it is to be expected that they are dominated. Foreigners have gotten better but no where near the level of the Koreans. Except for a select few foreigners.
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On April 10 2012 08:46 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 08:43 SilentSC2 wrote:On April 10 2012 08:29 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:24 FairForever wrote:On April 10 2012 08:19 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 08:12 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 10 2012 08:06 SupLilSon wrote:On April 10 2012 07:59 KaptenCulpa wrote:On April 10 2012 07:37 tranmillitary wrote:
so instead of having nestea, mma, bomber, leenock, mc, MKP, squirtle, alive, jjakji, taeja, ganzi... ect... u want a tourney with just 2 of them??
so this weekend full of crazy and great games, you would rather pay to watch no name players and players worst than incontrol play?? The sport won't grow if the games are crap. I'd pay to watch those koreans play rather than 2 random masters or grandmasters (NA and Europe servers) players.
This was probably one of the greatest tourneys i've ever watched. This was like a whole season of GSL in 3 days. Who else wouldn't want that?? i guess some people just blindly hate. Did you read my thread. In my suggestion I hinted that I a least thought that having more then half of the final 20 from one country would be too much to be good for the sport. This would more then make room for the korean top players, but not the whole top 20 of them. I have no hate against Koreans or anyone in the SC2 world, i simply dont have that much feelings about SC2 and its comunity to hate anyone. I argue for what I think would be best for Starcraft 2 as an e-sport. The things i prupose is commonplace in the world of sports, the olympics for one have limits on countries. The FIfa world cup have reginal qualifiers wich are far more difficult in for example europe then on many other continents. I am not talking about anything that isent sommonplace in the rest of the sportsworld. And people are asking how your suggestion is better for "E-Sports" than Korean domination? You would lessen the competition. As other people have suggested, let's remove Black people from NBA, remove Canadians and Russians from Hockey, Dominicans from Baseball, and Europeans from Football/Soccer... Really? They have Football/soccer league in the USA called the MLS, it stands for Major League Soccer. No one watches it. You know why? Because if you watch European Football you get to watch a the sport as such a higher level that it really isn't the same game anymore. It's a false comparison though. For a start with professional sports, the financial payoffs for even the average pro in the States are well worth the level of sacrifice required, if you're on that level it is much less of a risk. In addition there is a safety net of sorts for those who get college athletic scholarships, i.e they don't have to sacrifice their education to pursue their dream, if they don't quite make it they still get a bit of a leg up in the job market. Starcraft isn't comparable in the West at all, although the infrastructure is getting better in that regard. Not sure how to fix it really, the problem is that the system isn't really meritocratic with regards to how the money is spread around. There are players who are financially a lot better off than others with much more ability and drive because they are personalities, or they were in the right place in the right time. For somebody coming in now it's not an attractive career choice, compete to become some kind of hybrid player/entertainment personality, or try to compete against Koreans and their well-established infrastructure which (in addition to a solid work ethic) aids them immensely in actually winning things. I don't understand where the comparison fails. I am really struggling to see your point, and I don't mean to be rude. The fact is, there's more than enough money in the Foreign scene to support a number of pros, team house, all expenses, I mean there's already a number of Foreign pro houses where all players do is sit and play SC2. The thing is, these teams with all the money are deciding to just buy Korean players because they are actually just better than any of the foreign players. No there aren't. The one successful one I can think of is the EG Lair. Other ones from "established" teams such as RGN have died off. It's not a profitable enterprise, cost of living is high, etc. Teams and competitions should do what's in their best interest, which is to hire/bring Koreans. But that is going to lead to the death of the foreign scene. Really?? There are a bunch of SC2 houses in Europe. A relatively unknown team Dust recently had a post saying they had a team house... Complexity could have used all the money they spend buying Nada, Killer, Heart, Ganzi to build a fucking team house... but they didn't. And really I as well as many others don't care about the "foreign scene". If it dies, it wasn't meant to be. It wasn't because there were too many Koreans. If it dies I will still be able to play SC2. If it dies I will still be able to watch Koreans, the players I actually wanted to watch in the first place. I don't even think foreign teams want to have team houses in the first place because of the chance of failure(RGN is one that comes to mind). That's why they want to sign Korean players because they have the better chance of improving and winning(this is more to Complexity then other teams). On-topic, Koreans are dominate because they practice harder than foreigners. Simple as that, and it's not a problem. Teamhouses are difficult to organise in the States due to the sheer geographical size of the place, likewise the size of Europe. I had a search for the thread but couldn't find it alas, but I found it interesting that one of the reasons put forward for the strength of the Korean scene is that it's centred around Seoul. Having a centralised 'hub' for Starcraft, where most of the pros end up based, just helps to foster a competitive scene there.
Chinese SC2 teams live in team houses as a counterpoint. It's definitely possible if they wanted it for Western team, but most Western pros are used to playing on their own schedule / time. Few have the commitment of a Huk or Naniwa. Even players as good as Thorzain and Stephano are basically part-time (they still put school first as far as I know - Stephano still doesn't commit to playing SC2 longer than a year even). No disrespect to them, we all went crazy about Polt winning SuperTournament while giong to University after all, so Thorzain deserves just as much respect for winning TSL 3 while going to Uni.
The team house thing could also be related to how old players in the Western scene are compared to Korea. You just get to a certain age where you don't want to live around a bunch of other people.
By reference: SC, JJakji, MKP, Leenock, Maru, Creator, Taeja, Parting are all under 20. Even MC and DRG are only 20...
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On April 10 2012 08:59 Pantagruel wrote:
Honestly, the OP is not really wrong here in that it is probably in the best interest of the SC2 E-sports scene to include some more stringent regional qualifiers similar to what UEFA does for the champions league. One of the biggest draws of these international competitions, is that they are in fact, international.
I don't see what is wrong with being a fan of players whom are from our country and whom we can communicate better with over most of the Korean players. This sentiment is relevant in every professional sport in the world. Sure, I love seeing the best games possible, I think we all do, but first and foremost, we like to see our favorite players compete. For example, sure I can admire and enjoy FC Barcelona's play but if I had to choose between watching them or my hometown club, Feyenoord, I would choose Feyenoord 100% of the time.
I was less interested in IPL4 because many of my favorite European players didn't compete in anything except the first few rounds of the open bracket. Should they be practicing harder and more efficiently? Sure. Doesn't change the fact that i'd still rather watch them play then two mechanically excellent code A Koreans whom I know little about. If skill was the dominating factor in who we choose to be fans of then we wouldn't be fans at all. I suspect IGNProleague knows this however and do just what i've suggested in this post, limit qualifiers to region so that a more diverse group of players will compete at IPL5, in turn, drawing in a larger number of viewers. It's good for E-sports.
As a person who's favorite players are ALL Korean(minus Stephano), I still agree 100% with this statement. I think people should think about the OP a bit more before they start jumping in and raging about how dumb they think the idea is. Personally I think MLG does one of the best jobs with their regional qualifiers but I'm open to the possibility that the process could be even more stringent.
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There is just a huge cultural difference between the West and Korea, especially when it come to Esports and Starcraft.
For instance, in Korea, if you're a pro gamer, you're a celebrity. Aspiring to becoming a top pro gamer is like trying to become a star in the NBA, an actor, entertainer, etc. An example is Boxer, pretty much everyone in Korea knows who he is, hes dating an actress, and pretty much living the sweet life because of his success.
There are several other factors on why Starcraft is so popular over there. Its just unfortunate that Esports in general is not that popular to the average person in the West since there's a greater stigma on gaming and there are just too many other forms of entertainment that appeal more to the public.
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EPT
